Into the Wilds Poll - October 2020

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necxelos

Hi again, Just to clarify, we do not retain the same characters while switching DMs. I run my own campaign and the other DM runs his. Mine is somewhat "cracky" which is a nice break from the other DM's campaign which tends to run to the serious and intense. But yes, his campaign is really cool. The characters in my campaign are all "b-sides" as we call them. Supporting characters if you will. Goblin monk, gnome artificer, elf illusionist, human bard, and kalashtar druid. Each on their own are not very powerful, but together, we were all surprised how well they worked together. Yes, we're running D&D 5e. Thanks for the tip on Foundry. I've been wanting to check it out but you've given me a nudge. I wasn't a fan of Fantasy Grounds at all. I like your comparison of R20 and Foundry. Pre online D&D a local group of us used to play BrickQuest which is very simplified D&D and Warhammer with LEGO models we would build. That was a riot. By Hero City it is partly how you describe but also a place where the characters become heroes themselves due to some actions they have performed for the city. Ahhh politics... something near and dear to me. I agree that care need be taken to ensure balanced power amidst the politics of the campaign. Both my fellow DM and I create stories and events that occur "behind the scenes" and that are constantly changing -- aspects of which do involve the characters as is appropriate. Essentially it's a living and breathing world. So far we've made it work in two different campaigns with two different DMs. So far! LOL Your campaign sounds really fascinating. You've inspired me to fashion a Hotel California style with my group at some point in the future (I am thinking of Tom's Dragon Cultist's Lair map). They love puzzles and so do I. Again, thanks for the chat. Have a super weekend coming up. Tom: Thanks for letting us chat in your space ;-)

Xandria

Yes, I've actually read everything. Didn't think of it as an act of heroism though :D Your storyline feel very interesting. I even noticed a practice I was employing many years ago: switching GM's during campaign but keeping the player characters. That can go wrong in so many ways, but usually works out well in a group of friends, such as Yours (and mine back in the days when I did that). Even though You didn't state it outright, I assume You play D&D 5.0, based on Unearthed Arcana Reference? Team composition kind of gives it away too... Btw. if You loved Roll20 dynamic lighting You really need to test out Foundry. It's like comparing a LEGO DUPLO to an Unreal Engine, ran on a NASA hardware :D Options available in Foundry are insane, completely different level of interaction. By Hero City I assume You mean that most of the buildings are magic-protected, average guard is a level 10 fighter and city itself is ruled by former adventurers AKA level 20 demigods? As fun as it sounds for shorter campaigns or one-shots I never was able to make it work in a longer game. And while I do create all my adventures from scratch I tend to use existing settings (or mixes of them) in most cases. The reason is simple: they are more balanced politically speaking. I mean, if there was one such city-state as mentioned above, what would prevent them from conquering the world and making anyone pre-level 10 obsolete in the setting thus basically making 10 a new 1? Btw. now that I think about it I don't use cities much, even on lower levels. My ongoing campaign started as a survival type of game in Ravenloft (my own story, using entire Ravenloft, not just Barovia) and moved into a mix of detective work around many potential ways of escaping Ravenloft (one after another being proven fake). There was just one session in a city which was mostly a filler meant to show them the reality of living there. Interesting realisation... Well anyway. Got to go get some sleep. Cheers :)

necxelos

Hi again, I don’t mind at all. It’s nice to chat D&D outside my own circle. I had a feeling you were RAW oriented 😉 I, admittedly, play even more fast and loose than the other DM in our group (he is quite reluctant to include homebrew, other than his own design, for the reasons you state). I vet homebrew as best as I can and the players are cool with me modifying or removing homebrew aspects if any prove problematic. I should interject at this point that this group of us having been playing online games (GTA, H1Z1, and the like) and gathering socially online (Second Life) for about 10 years now. We only started playing D&D together a few years ago (2 had never played before and the rest of us varying degrees of experience). We are a solid group of friends (family, really) who have also met in real life throughout the years (we’re from all over the world). I can’t be certain, but I think this allows our group’s dynamics in D&D to be a lot more forgiving when the unexpected happens or someone screws up unintentionally. But I digress, again. Your group seems well organized and respectful which is a rarity from what I’ve observed lurking around reddit groups and similar. Well done. Oh my god, yes, levelling up is always fun. So are the shopping excursions! We use bonus platinum pieces in lieu of nomination XP (gifted either by DM or nominated by players). Ahhh yes, downtime activities. My fellow DM conducts them as you do. I conduct them during our games nights (we play Friday and Saturday nights) because everyone wants to observe – we have a couple players whose antics result in their own enthralling TV program. I also tend to weave relevant storyline intel throughout their downtimes so the others like to be aware. I totally agree about being well prepared. I do improvise as I feel necessary for the story (sometimes embellishment or just suddenly inspired to drop something that will segue into another plot line later on). The players though? They love doing the unexpected which, despite trying to prepare for every scenario, demands I act fast (see long-winded story at bottom of this comment if of interest). I like your description of the levels, and totally concur. In the level 14 campaign my character is a Draconic Sorcerer. The other party members are X-Good alignment, whereas my Sorcerer is Neutral. Thusly, he sometimes spends time getting drunk on his bone horse while the do-gooders “do their thing” and jumps in to help when necessary; usually when what should be a simple rescue turns into a trap or something entirely unexpected. That said, the DM has created a world in which the major cities are host to some extraordinarily powerful individuals (some adversaries, some allies, some unknown at this point). As a result, we do have some pretty high level encounters within or near such cities. I confess my Sorcerer has caused (and paid for) some serious damage as a result of certain spells LOL. (I’ve burned down more than 1 tavern… oops). Similarly, within my own cities, there are those and their machinations who are sufficiently challenging. Again, I think it’s the way we use cities, their population (high level NPCs) and the stories that are woven within and that subsequently lead the party to venture out of the city. So, no, we tend not to play much in “regular human cities”, but rather transform what may seem such into a Hero City (where major events go down of appropriate higher level). I totally agree that regular human cities don’t provide much for higher level characters. That’s awesome that you create your own stories. My fellow DM creates his entirely from his imagination. I use mostly my own stories, but sometimes come across a homebrew adventure comprising of elements that would work well within my own storyline, and weave those into my own. It’s like the pirate code according to Barbosa: “Guidelines”. I develop long range arcs and amidst that shorter arcs and of course player actions will develop other arcs. I like dropping hints of “things to come” that may not come to pass too quickly but when they do the party have an “a-ha!” moment. I had a chuckle when you said: “…another reason why another set of human chairs and tables don't excite me as much…”. And I can never get enough of anything as when I have a vision for a scene I want it just so. But I also agree that more fantastical assets are always a boon. So the level 14 story: I will be brief as it’s a massive story. The DM has created a continent where unauthorized magic is forbidden (makes playing a Sorcerer from another continent really challenging) as a result of the continent’s “rulers” claiming that too much magic will destroy the weave and cause serious damage in every way imaginable. The “Wizards 9” are supposedly responsible for ensuring the continuance and health of the continent. There are also 9 Cataclysms throughout the continent that resulted from a major battle in the past between humans, elves, and dragons. These Cataclysms are in various stages of activity. We also have an airship which is mega cool, but supplying it with appropriate magical gems for its operation has become a challenge – never mind the fact that it attracts the wrong sort of attention. Originally we came to the continent as the Rogue among us inherited some property there. It’s been a fast-paced crazy adventure since we set foot there. We left off ruminating on the best way to rescue a critical NPC from within the fire cataclysm and not die in the process. Our opponents are 2 of the Wizards 9 and their bevvy of henchmen plus a magical fire prison of epic death. The DM needed a break so I began my campaign of what was supposed to be light hearted filler, but has subsequently become light hearted play with lots of plots and fun for all. For the level 14 players we have: Elf draconic sorcerer, a drow bard, human rogue, half elf cleric, gnome barbarian, and a tiefling ranger. Whew. That was a long message. If you read this far – congrats! Cheers. And… story mentioned from above… --- [https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/ixoq80/lava_lizard_firehurling_artillery_elemental/ -- creator of a homebrew creature called a Lava Lizard] In my adventure Larry (I had to name a lizard Larry in honour of Leisure Suit Larry in the land of the lounge lizards) is not an antagonist, but helps the party. Although his introduction was funny as hell. Quick Backstory: the party are performing a variety of investigations in the volcano/lava hideout (courtesy of Tom Cartos) and one of the residents is a captured Flame Dragon (courtesy of Kobold Press; very chaotic, very evil, will kill on sight). The party encountered a Wyrmling and were able to dispatch it, although were aware there was another, larger, flame dragon but had not seen it yet. They were terrified. Using dynamic lighting and exploration mode in Roll20, they came upon Larry and ONLY one party member glimpsed part of his token, screamed and encouraged everyone to flee the lair. Larry even tried waddling after them with a dejected "I just want to be your friend" noise. They thought Larry was the larger Flame Dragon. I was laughing so hard inside. But then... As a DM I was thinking "oh man, I have to get them back in there." Thankfully I had a "minder" NPC nearby who had been around the burgeoning volcano (but refused to go in with the party) and inquired if they saw the magnificent Lava Lizard. That shut them up pretty fast. After a little clarification they went back in, befriended Larry, who has been shuttling them around on his back as he moves through the lava. Suffice to say, the Lava Lizard has been a huge hit in our group. One member squeed: "he's so cute!" ha ha. So there you have it. Thank you! --- ETA: The party has since befriended the lava lizard and have brought it into town as one of their animal companions! LOL

Xandria

I find some things to respond to / relate to / comment on, every time You write. Hope You don't mind, good intentions here. Regarding Your "not using XP" and "good amount of homebrew", I'm totally oppose spectrum there. I'm quite attached to definition so RPG is first and foremost a game for me. Games have rules. Going forward with that I'm totally devoted to RAW. Of course it requires some trust between GM and players (every system have abusible bugs, like "Painter Wizard" in Pathfinder 1) but it works well for us. This also assures some decree of fairness between GM and players since homebrew tend to destroy the game system most of the time. I also believe that so called "level up" is the most satisfying part of playing the RPG for players (next to big shopping after major quest reward). I also am completely fine with up to 1-2 levels difference between my players. Might be due to absence on sessions, differences is what I call "nomination XP" (bonus XP that players reward to each other for 200 IQ ideas during sessions and for roleplaying). When it comes to downtime activities thise are mostly done OOG in-between sessions, both in games where I'm a GM and ones I play in. We believe going around town and trading, bargaining, crafting, etc. is simply too boring to roleplay it. We might roleplay some unique stuff from time to time like first-time Planar Binding, crafting the Golem or something like that but overall it's all settled during chat conversations during the week. With that being said, we do roleplay a lot, but in places where it matters as far as the story goes. I believe it's better for the GM to prepare quality stuff before hand than go for open world and improvise low quality stuff. This doesn't take player agency away, it just means that decision "what group does next" also happens in-between sessions and when they do decide I have enough time to prepare quality stuff for that. Last thing, about consequences. I'm all about that and I didn't mean my players go around destroying buildings for no reason and without repercussions. What I meant is that systems such as D&D or Pathfinder are designed to be epic after certain level. And it's sooner rather than later. Those systems are designed in a way that assures 1-2 sessions per level up during first 5 levels with time between level ups increasing as You go higher and higher. As I'm familiar with D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder 1 the most I'll give example from that: - After level 10 You're basically a god as far as humans in regular city are considered. At this point You're expected to go against Evil Wizards, Adult Dragons and Beholders. - By level 16 You can create a demiplane and shape it as a city of Your own. This kind of devalues human city to nothing more than an ant farm, full of lower life forms. - Level 18-30 (or 18-20 if You don't use Epic Rules which are official part of the game) You are expected to jump around the multiverse and solves issues of Angelic / Demonic / Planar War scale. - Level 30+ You are battling gods. Literally. All that is based on different rulesets of course. D&D 3.5 have dedicated Epic Levels up to 40, Pathfinder have either Mythic levels (for a total of 30) or regular levels scaling up to 100. There's also semi-official Epic adaptation from D&D 3.5 which is also officialy recognized by Paizo as backwards compatible. From what I know D&D 5.0 introduces 10th level magic instead of Epic Levels so levels 15-20 in 5.0 is equivalent to 20-30 power-curve-wise compared to D&D 3.5. This way or another - for the majority of the game in D&D based systems, regular humans in their regular cities are lower life forms as far as players are concerned. Resource at best. This is what comes with Epic Fantasy Setting territory. With that being said Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (every edition) will be played in cities even at high levels but it is Grimdark setting rather than Epic Fantasy. So WFRP GM's/players will appreciate new urban maps a lot more than D&D GM's/players. And You say level 14, still in regular human city? I'm quite sure Your team's spellcasters didn't do much rulebook reading in spells section. This is spell level 7-8, at this point collateral damage is the name of the game with every spell they could possibly use (other than pure utility). And even utility-wise, we're talking about walking around with huge-sized summon / pet / companion / construct, travelling mainly with teleport because walking is a waste of time and not being constricted by food or weather conditions anymore. I don't see how I could possibly roleplay such a character taking any interest in mundane human problems and make it feel realistic. Last things last. I never use ready-adventures. I create my campaigns from scratch like a writer creating a story. After at least core of the story is done I start looking for resources (or create them if there are none - that's also why I value varied Map Assets a lot more than Maps themselves and another reason why another set of human chairs and tables don't excite me as much as for example demonic cages and ritual circles or underdark flora would :P). P.S. This level 14... What system that is, what team composition there is (classes) and what are You guys doing there story-wise?

necxelos

Hi Necxelos, There are definitely similarities; and you are right about GMing differences too. Thanks for detailing your use of cities. It would be interesting to see how others use cities in their long running campaigns. I really enjoy pretty much any locale, and my players seem to as well. They are big into the RP so I devote a lot of time to setting up the maps and NPCs. I think Tom's Starter Town now has about 150 NPCs in it (and they are still there). I find towns and cities are good for "downtime" activities which my group loves. One of my players was experimenting with alchemical ingredients and partially destroyed the home the group was renting -- this added on a whole other session dealing with that. They are nuts. I even had to create a City Hall -- LOL. We spent over an hour RPing bureaucratic hell last weekend. We laughed so hard. But again, I digress. (I think my players are a little off their nut). In towns and cities I take a few different approaches, regardless of level. I enjoy creating a scavenger hunt, of sorts, in that they need to go to multiple places to RP, use skills, etc. to achieve some end. I find Tom's maps inspirational on that account as well. Intrigue, mystery, puzzle solving, and RP are a big focus for us. Your Oceans (n) comparison is hilarious. Thank you. The images in my mind now! I enjoy making my players accountable for their actions. So if they destroy something, as they do, they need to rectify it. I should mention that we do not use XP, which may affect gameplay and goals dramatically. For my campaign, I started them at 4th level and level them up as needed for plot and encounters. What I am trying to say (as I've been distracted a number of times trying to write this) is that I haven't found "level" restrictions or negatives for running adventures in a city. My fellow DM (same group -- two of us take turns) manages the same too (his players, including myself, are level 14 and we still muck about cities and towns quite happily). You totally have me at Atlantis-inspired underwater cities. That would be so amazing (hi, Tom! LOL). Underdark is such a great concept too. Again, I'd love to know more about people using the maps, how they use them, and as you say, why they wish certain things. Personally, I like to use a good amount of homebrew along with the established rules/gameplay. A few of my players know too much, and I enjoy throwing new creatures, items, and spells at them -- keeps them on their toes. I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thank you for the chat. I eagerly await the next awesome maps from Tom and those that follow (whispers, more fantastical maps would be great when inspiration strikes). :-) Cheers!

Xandria

It seems we are quite similar in some regards. I also tend to prefer long-term continuous storylines. I'm also a big fun of playing throughout all the character levels, up to the endgame. Main difference might be due to systems or setting that we're gamemastering. You see, for me cities are mostly (there are exceptions - more on that later) HUB's where PC's might trade, learn about world, get new "quests" or interact with NPC's. But none of that requires a map, or at least not a tactical map. Strategic-level city map is more than enough for that and even that it's only needed for either decorational purpose or for hexcrawl kind of city exploration. Tactical maps on the other hand serve two main purposes: 1) Combat Encounters, including chases, random encounters or planned boss battles. 2) Exploration. This might be a dungeon-crawl with traps, hidden rooms and treasures, this might be searching through a mansion for hidden clues (murder mystery) or survival style wilderness exploration with hunting and tracking. Now with the above in mind, Tom's Big City series of maps have exactly one usecase: self-contained 1-session adventures taking place in one big building. We're talking Ocean's 8/11/12/13 kind of adventure, which while very fun is only feasible on low-levels (assuming standard fantasy setting which most popular systems fall under). You could ask why? My answer will be somewhat influenced by systems I'm GM'ing (D&D 3.5, Pathfinder 1) but other ones will vary by 1-2 character levels tops. The answer is power creep. There is no use for pretending to be George Clooney or Sandra Bullock when You can raze entire building with a single spell. And the fact is, due to incrementing XP requirements (even when compensated by higher XP rewards) You will spend less than 1/10th of entire campaign on levels low enough for single-building adventures to be interesting. After that You need something more epic. Of course there are some groups that play let's say D&D 5.0 at levels 1-10 and start another adventure from scratch but quite honestly it makes zero sense. You don't pay big buck for a bunch of Rulebooks to only use 1/2 of them at best (the higher up the level the more content available so it's really more like 1/4). There's also the issue of less player options thus less player agency thus less overall fun on lower levels. And for the summary. Tom's Big City Series is a purely human architecture, single big building type of series, meant to be played as a single adventure (which is literally proven by all the Tavern Tales releases lately). At the same time we're not seeing any major map releases for something past those early levels. While I understand Tom might be more comfortable with urban maps (he is an architect by education after all) there is no reason to keep pushing purely human architecture. For any other artist I'd say it's a sign of burnout but I know Tom's capable of awesome, unique themes like Aztec Temples, Jungle Villages and Greek Ruins. There are so many great options, even we focus on urban-like theme: - Underdark and Drow City, - Indian-inspired cliffside Pueblos, - Minflayer hive-cities, - Elemental plane of fire City of Brass, - Atlantis-inspired underwater Cities, - and many more. Those are things that are missing from Tom's offer. What I'm wondering right now is who really pushes for those human urban maps. I don't believe a single Tom's Patron was able to GM through every Big City Building already, which even if they did, would mean a marathon of 1-10 adventures after which every sane player would move to grandpa's cottage for a year, because they wouldn't be able to stand looking at real city anymore. So I don't know. Maybe I'm different for using 100% of my rulebooks instead of just a fraction and leading campaigns from zero to level cap instead of starting over time and time again. But I'd really prefer to not see another human building for at least a year and instead get some actual wilderness of different planes of existence or at least unique architectures mentioned above. P.S. I'm also aware of how single-choice-fixed-options-polls work. Long story short, they don't. Well this is all from me at the moment. Here's hoping Big City will be buried soon and things will move in other directions. Have a good night :) P.S.2. What was great about Into the Wilds series was also it's uniqueness. The fact that it was completely separated from monthly theme. That plus the actual wilderness part which we don't have much of here.

necxelos

Thank you for your cogent reply. It is appreciated. Honestly, I think a lot comes down to the types of campaigns people are running. Some are a string of one shots, while others are epic, and then there is everything in between. My own campaign runs towards a continuous storyline involving anything and everything. Quite often Tom's maps inspire the incidents that befall my players (we spent SIX sessions in the Volcano/Lava Lair -- LOL). But I digress. In a more continuous campaign, multiple cities and what they provide are needed (unless the campaign involves a group of persons who only venture into towns and cities for base supplies and then leave again). Before I came across Tom's maps I was almost beating my head against the wall trying to find suitable maps for a substantive city; a place the players could adventure in for a good period of time. You would think with everything that is out there that this would be possible. Sure, there are some, but they didn't meet my needs (aesthetically and/or content-wise). When I saw Tom's maps I felt he'd crawled into my head and just put it out there (probably why I'm a rabid fan). Ostenwold is a great town. The Big City is... well, appropriately named! Granted bits and pieces of these can be used to form another city etc. But as created, they truly are what my group calls "Hero Cities" -- places where you spend a good period of time or use as a "home base". And perhaps it's just my group, but they enjoy NPCs they can interact with on an ongoing basis. Maybe due to COVID-19 we're all desperate to widen our social circles, even if they're imaginary -- LOL. I think Tom's detailed maps lend themselves to these long run compaigns, requiring city and town map components. NOW, all that said, I DO agree that Tom provides amazing variety and I too would love to see more Planar Maps, especially involving the Fey Court. Underdark maps would be just fabulous under Tom's creative skills. The aforementioned would be utterly welcome in my campaign at some point but even playing twice a week, my players are SLOW, so I store up Tom's creations and hope I can use most of them before we all die of old age! So that's my perspective, but as I mentioned above, there are so many types of campaign styles. Cheers!

Xandria

Xandria: While indeed I tend to get annoyed by trend of people using words however they please instead of sticking closely to the lexical definition it is not the case this time. The main reason of my annoyance is (rest in next part)... Xandria & Tom: I initially joined this Patreon because of great variety of maps. And it was varied, for a time. But lately I see more and more pushing in the direction of mass-producing urban maps, which there is too many already. First the "revisit" of Big City theme (which I didn't expect to happen ever - revisiting anything makes no sense, it's allways better to keep creating something entirely new) and now the betrayal of Into the Wilds theme in favor of even more urban maps. Why?? There's already more maps in "Big City" series than in any other 3 series combined. Why not more Aztec Ruins? Why not more Planar Maps (Fey Court seemed like a nice introduction to what could become a very original and interesting series). Why not some underdark maps (drow cities oe duergar cities or mindflayer nests would at least be very different from generic human ones we got now)? I want something new, creative, unexplored, not more of the same. And I'm quite sure I'm not the only one.

necxelos

I thought it would fit well with the current theme for the main map series, and would be a popular choice. The 'Into the Wilds' name is just a name I picked very early on to help differentiate it from the regular maps. I'd rather not be too constricted by the name, and make sure I'm providing what people want.

Tom Cartos

Tom states that "Into the Wilds": "These are more generic random encounter maps for when the party is on the road, or you need something quick for an unexpected battle. Themed by region or biome." Urban is a region. While I am often prone to discussions around semantics, in this particular instance, I refer to Tom's definition of "Wilds". Out of curiosity, why does this bother you so much? Is it lexical, you do not wish brief urban encounter maps, or something else?

Xandria

Sorry, I'm not subscribing to the "world is subjective" idea. Words have certain definitions, period. From wiki: "Wilderness or wildlands (usually in the plural), are natural environments on Earth that have not been significantly modified by human activity or any nonurbanized land not under extensive agricultural cultivation". NON-URBANIZED is literally in the definition.

necxelos

There are some pretty "wild" urban locations. Cemetery, shrine, black market environs, not so nice part of town, and so on. It's open to interpretation.

Xandria

Please, someone explain to me how "urban" is a wilderness and why was it put in poll in the first place? It is supposed to be INTO THE WILDS series, not INTO THE CITY series. Are we gonna change series name now to fit the decisionmaking narrative?

necxelos

I could really use a craggy, mist-plagued highland moor.

Paul Bigbee

Future ideas: Alpine Lake Shore: Ancient lava flow, Hoodoos, Hot springs

Dungeon FTW! Although I will say that the urban environments are absolutely beautiful.

Jimmy Jeans