Invincible 3x2

i mean Omniman never just randomly killed anyone on earth until he deleted the Guardians and cecil had no reason to believe his life was in danger with omniman either. the difference is he didnt want to be too late to take ACTUAL effective maneuvers at stopping him this time so he started acting while mark saw him as a friend

Kale

Don’t listen to them Roshi, they ain’t trynna hear you out

Tyvonn Johnson

The issue is Cecil kept trying to simplify it too much in a way that Cecil understands and not to an idealist like Mark. Instead of properly explaining himself he continued to just brush it off with half-assed responses and led him to the room when all Mark asked for was answers. Cecil isn't wrong for being scared of Mark but the problem with the scared logic is Mark hasn't just RANDOMLY killled anyone for no reason and he believes you're his friend, so why now of all times would you think he'd start when all he did was ask questions? Yea his temper was threatening but he never actually made any threats till AFTER everything Cecil pulled. Cecil had no real reason to believe his life was in danger. Asshole just flat out never trusted Mark

Dragon Fire

Sheera the type of person to tell the cops to just shoot the weapons out of the criminals hands.

Infinity

It’s a great argument because they’re both right but also both wrong 😂you can clearly see both sides I feel like if Sinclair wasn’t being used it be an easier argument because wht hre did and is doing is crazy

Jor-El Kuykendall

Don’t know why I just noticed but mark killed one of those robots the same way Nolan killed red flash

Nicholas Mckee

two viltrumites infact, and even refused to say he'll take over the planet even when Cecil himself wanted him to say it just to get her off his back. I get how cecil feels and wanting a contingency just incase something like mind control, mental switch up or whatnot, but to chase me down as I'm trying to flee and use said contingency on me still is wild work

shemshamx

@24:17 I feel like Sheera had a dirty thought, that was not an innocent laugh lol

Karabo

NAHHHH Cecil ain’t shit. You don’t make a contingency plan until someone gives you a REASON to have a contingency plan. MARK ALREADY CHOSE THE SIDE OF THE PLANET WHEN HE TOOK THE ASS WHOOPING THAT NO ONE ELSE COULD HAVE SURVIVED SEASON ONE!!!!! Mark made the decision to NOT be his father when he went against him in protection of the planet he calls HOME! Mark had done nothing but try to meet Cecil’s expectations and to escape his father’s dark shadow and he’s still treated like a monster! Where’s the same loyalty from Cecil that mark showed by fighting his father and almost dying to save the earth?!

Jay R.

Sheera is emotion over logic on this episode lol

Attacktitan328

Roshi is right on this one

Attacktitan328

these comments are terrible lol. If i ever got superpowers im not telling anyone. Its crazy how many of yall think someone should be monitored and controlled just because they MIGHT be dangerous. There are certain words to be used for that line of thinking. Im js tho, putting a bomb in my head isnt it. Im crashing out completely and immediately. There's having a plan for mark and completely betraying any and all trust at all. I wouldn't do shit for them or anyone on this world ever again. (except the fam and friends)

neoplansc

Nah Sheera was cooking. Cecil had a good reason for putting up his backup plans, but up to that point Mark had proved to him that his intentions were good and all he cared about was protecting people and his family. Cecil took it to level 100 before Mark was ready for Level 2.

ab

im sooooo with roshi 100%. Sheera gotta rewatch the whole incident of mark aggressively (understandably though but..) walkin up to and talking to cecil from last ep again. Mark's energy was like he was not taking NO for an answer. Also sheera keeps saying Cecils is at fault cuz he should have not pissed Mark off, umm.... Mark and the gang were LITERALLY about to die and Cecil saved their lives using Dark wing and those robot/human soldiers. Mark was angry at the individuals Cecil used to save his life when there was literally nobody else, HOW SHEERA BLAMIN CECIL FOR THAT?????? Then mark gets super Aggro and confronts Cecil. As a fellow human with no superhuman abilities I hella sympathize with cecil's position at that moment. He was even calm the whole time as he constantly told Mark calm down or call it, but like I said MARK WAS NOT TAKING NO FOR AN ANSWER. That type of energy from a viltrumite is terrifying Great episode and reaction from all y'all. Love divisive and thought provoking eps with deep themes like this

john segun doe

The reason why sheera and lupa are a bit more correct is because Cecil has known mark since he was a kid. Cecil was introduced to omniman when he was already a full grown adult. He kept an eye on him and more than likely his wife and kid(mark). It would be a better argument for feeling fear with omniman being agitated prior to the events in the first season. However Mark is a lot more human, and heirs on the side of kindness.

TheMidnightTrain

Almost 1,200 comments? Yeah, y'all got it man lol

Pan .

Nah yeah cecil should’ve trusted mark more . Knowing what mark went thru he should’ve known mark wouldnt attack him , cause once mark noticed theyre in the white room he calmed down immediately & then cecil escalated even more he h honestly should’ve jus let mark keep yappin till he left

Johnwick

Wew chile 1000+ comments. We did it, Joe.

Isaac

Hmmm.. these are 2 different arguments. Lupa's and Sheera's argument was that that could've been done/handled better. But that's besides the point ,and neither here or there... and from Cecil's perspective, the "let's calm down and talk this out" option might NOT have been an option, especially when you are dealing with an agitated super that can slice your head open in split second, when you can't react/defend fast enough. And i think everyone is still pretty shaken up with Omniman and you got front seat on how much destruction a super can inflict, I get why someone like Cecil handled this whole ordeal this way. I do however agree that Cecil needs a "Lesson in Language" cos his speech pattern does get to Mark, who's already vulnerable, and does not de-escalate the already unconventional situation/dynamics. It did made things worse...way worse...even if he's not wrong... And of course Mark's reaction/anger to finding out he's been invasively implanted and physically attacked is 100% justified. Roshi's argument was just that he's saying he UNDERSTANDS and emphatic to Cecil's approach. Yes, Cecil is afraid. And him pulling Mark to a different playing field (white room) and revealing the "zombie killer robots", is him effectively evening the odds and equivalent to "pulling a gun" while saying "don't come any closer". We can see that Mark did not react well to the "threat"....sure... Was that the wrong approach? Maybe... But I am in the same boat in rolling to the white room immediately vs leaning to the mini chance that Mark would hopefully calm down naturally, if you show that you trust him or treat him nicer. Mark has been through a lot, yes. He has a good heart, but the show is already dabbling that Mark is slowly developing a "God complex" and he starts enforcing authority and dominance through his power. Which could in the future, proves and solidifies Cecil's "Amanda Waller" approach XD

Uwanova

They doesn’t change anything. The way you act today isn’t proof of what you’re going to be in the future. Like the episode said “ people change”

Mali Howard

Not saying Cecil shouldn’t have a contingency plan but The distrust mehn, I’ll be pissed too. Mark put his life on the line for the planet and got beat to a pulp for not joining his father. He continues to get his ass beat for Cecil and the planet and yet that’s how Cecil chooses to handle it.

Hector Brown

Idk sheera trapping him in the white room a little bit wild but mark flew too the pentagon yelling with demands like owns the place so at the same time Cecil got a good reason

Ken

Everything is perspective. I don't care what it is I can do, you do some slimey shit to me like that I am also turning up. Its easy to put yourself into Cecil shoes, but put yourself into Mark shoes. You are a 19 year old KID, learning that a man had surgery on your head while you were unconscious to implant a weapon into your brain. Hell nah, idc if you wanted a contingency, you should of never let me find out, because now I'm gonna be your biggest op. Also Mark did nothing to threaten Cecil, Cecil was threatened by his own imaginations, which is not Marks fault. Cecil sent them nasty ass robots to attack him and then, only after he was attacked did Mark make a threat. Also I agree with Sheera, this is not what you do to the strongest person on the planet lol. If Mark wasn't a good person and that set him off to destroy the planet, I'd put that on Cecil

Revurus

I am not letting a teenage weapon of mass destruction walk around with zero contingencies in place to take him out if necessary. A rogue mad man with an AR-15 can ruin countless lives in the blink of an eye now imagine someone with super strength, who can fly faster than sound, and is impervious to ballistic weaponry on a bad day?

Aaron Posey

On top of that having superpowers is the equivalent always being armed meanwhile Cecil is a normal defenseless human... I don't blame Cecil for taking Mark to the white room because how can you have a equal conversation if youre not on equal grounds with the person you're arguing with...

Cerin Draco

This comment section is basically broken 😂 I can’t even respond to the people who’s replying to my comment.

Mari

This is the most comments I seen for a reaction video in patron in a minute this is why I love invincible 🙏🙏🙏🙏

Fizzy

So what if Superman joined General Zod and the other Kryptonians imprisoned in the Phantom Zone essentially

GyX

And that I understand mark came off pretty crazy towards Cecil when he didn’t have to be like that they could’ve had a normal conversation but mark wasn’t having it and I kinda understand that and as for the whole Omni-Man situation I get Cecil didn’t know this but me as the viewer I saw how mark was towards his dad after he saw him he wanted nothing to do with him he told his pops fuck u knowing his dad could prolly slice his ass in two if he wanted and yes but not only that you don’t expect a 19 year old to wanna be in his fathers life again? like I understand the logic is sound but what about the emotion like? We physically can’t have a world of just logic and Omni man yes while he did do good they knew he was a lying piece of shit from jump but they still trusted him anyway whilst with mark he started off with his dad then “betrayed” his dad and fought him for the fate of the world btw OMNI MAN’s EMOTIONS are why the hell everybody is still alive to this day so from Cecil’s perspective god forbid anybody have some fucking human emotions

Ejay 火

Also when Mark fought the zombie Men in Guardians HQ he looked just like Omni-Man killing the Guardians 😯

Arturo

Anyone siding with mark is taking the easy route (or is just too dense to look at this situation realistically)

kezzep

Omni man has been doing the same thing that Mark did for 20 years and look how that turned out for chicago. Cecil is more right than mark. Cecils also correct in calling Mark a hypocrit. Mark is mad that cecil is not locking the "bad guys" away forever and instead gives them the chance to do some good, meanwhile Mark makes that same exception for his Dad. Thats textbook hyprocricy. Its not about whether or not Cecil trusts mark, because Cecil cant put the fate of the world on his own intuition. Omni man displayed how utterly useless They all were against him, and the same would go for mark if he ever decided to go bad, and before you say "oooh mark would never!!!" i wouldnt be so sure. as mark himself said "people change". We can see Marks change over the show so far as he gets confronted with the reality of his Nature. For example when he met immortal it showed how the difference in life span could affect him in the future. long story short, Mark is a good guy, but Cecils the one trying to save the world. Besides, Mark was the one pressing Cecil in this episode. Mark wouldnt leave until cecil locked up those 2, which he was not gonna do.

kezzep

Sheera and lupa were cooking in the discussion

Chris Hardin

Man i need them to get on kate she got overshadowed by the mark and cecil situation the fuck she mean she almost died while she was in a cabin in the woods enjoying some hot coco

TheReaper

Except he told Mark several times to calm down and to go home before attacking him. So what are YOU saying??? And again for the 3rd time, it's not an equal relationship. Mark is infinitesimally stronger than Cecil. If they were around the same strength then yes, Cecil would've exaggerated but you keep ignoring the power differences between the two. Cecil has 0 margin of error to be able to defend himself. So he absolutely needs to take precautions, which he reasonably did.

Freeofgreed

The only thing he did wrong was explaining how the ear piece worked 🤷🏿‍♀️

naa

Saw a tweet that said, “One of DCs scariest stories is about Superman being evil. Now imagine if Superman was evil and there was a whole empire of him. That's the stress Cecil is under while Mark is busy jabbering about right and wrong.” And that’s all you need to care about in this discussion. Cecil is more in the right.

naa

This right here

Steve Harvey Dent

It's not black and white but Cecil used excessive force on Mark for him getting loud I need to read the comics cause I heard it's different than this 🤔

Arturo

Kinda not true he knew omni man was bullshittin from the start all his problems with mark he could give him a lil more leeway given in the future hesitation gonna have to be the one to protect everyone

TheReaper

I can understand both points of this topic but imo I agree with mark the most not even out of personal bias but even just from a logical standpoint everything mark has done these past what like 2 years? Dawg… he’s done more for this world then the guardians have in their prime he squared up with the ORIGINAL most powerful person on the planet his own father the man that gave him life and raised him and he didn’t wanna do that shit he still loved his father that moment still haunts him to do day is dad never put hands on him before he got powers first he punched him then he beat his ass senseless and in season 2 yes mark wasn’t listening to orders but he did it to save others Cecil should see that and understand that mark is like one of the least threats ever even after this exact encounter mark still does good after and yes he was wrong for how he approached Cecil BUT CECIL PUT A WEAPON IN A TEENAGERS HEAD AND EXPECTED HIM TO BE OK WITH IT HONESTLY IF YOU WANNA CONTROL MARK just give buddy what he wants mark isn’t an unreasonable person he just wants to be happy and do his mf job SO JUST LET HIM

Ejay 火

I like the fact that you answered my question and said some crazy shit all at the same time. 🤣🤣🤣 But thank you.

The Lonely One

Im half beetle 😂😂😂

BigTastyBets

sheera popped a blood vessel over cecil the centipede #cecildidnothingwrong

madmax

I think the discussion at the end is proof that you guys could do a podcast

Chief Doodle

Poor execution on cecil’s end and its undeniable even if mark was being unreasonable the kid got half beat to death for the planet and you gone move behind his back entirely, to avoid all this cecil could have took multiple steps a simple one being a simple redesign to sinclairs creations make em unrecognizable then he uses all of his anti viltrim plans on mark at once

TheReaper

700 comments is crazy 😭

naa

Cecil can’t even stop a b villain kidnapping all his heroes😭

Bosastar

Darkwing I understand, but you can take the doctors research and throw him in jail😭😂

Bosastar

When did Mark ever think his dad was redeemable? From what I remember is that he got tricked going to the planet and then told Nolan off and tried to get back to Earth. After that he had to fight with him. I don't think he fully forgave him.

Grimm

A bomb in his head is crazy, when they could of built the robots with that sound preloaded 😭

Bosastar

The way Mark was acting towards cecil was kind of like sheera discussing with roshi.

Kumi Chan

#cecildidnothingwrong

zacharie garondo

Just like Sheera, Lupa and Roshi did, you can easily make very valid arguments for both sides while understanding each others POV. Both sides have rights and wrongs. but reading ALOT of these comments, if you genuinely believe either side is more overwhelmingly right than the other, then you literally didnt understand nothing that happened during this entire episode

Philbo

Nah fr

Kumi Chan

I agree, ☝️

Kumi Chan

Fr tho

Kumi Chan

damn near 800 coments in 7hrs

Delgado

Personally I think you're right about them both being right and wrong but wrong in the application. 1. rehabilitated bad guys - Cecil is correct to use them for good and safety. However, Mark's anger is entirely justified, but could probably be dismantled if Cecil had done anything but escalate or dismiss Mark's concerns. 2. The bomb in Mark's head - Cecil is honestly still correct about putting it there. It's a safeguard. The actual issue is him using it now. There was literally zero need to use it now because Mark wasn't turning bad. He was being angry about murderers being used. Mark is wrong about the values and pragmatic decisions, but Cecil absolutely is entirely wrong in how he acted throughout both this and last episode in the confrontation with Mark.

Chimpman

Did Attack on Titan have this many comments back when Eren made the choice to do the rumbling? I feel like that was a reaction where a shit ton of comments and debates flowed in but as of now we're on nearly at 800 with this one. Dayum.

Isaac

@freeofgreed No, it isn't? Mark having powers doesn't mean you let your fear cloud your judgement to the point that you attack the guy. What are you even saying? Mark was angry about the moral issue of Cecil employing murderers. That's it. At no point was there any reason for Cecil to go the white room and bring about more reanimen, activate the device in Mark's head, have the reanimen attack him, and then when Mark leaves, KEEP USING THE DEVICE, then have the reanimen beat the shit out of him so that he can bring him under control. This is just bullshit, dude. You know it's wrong and the incorrect decision. Stop conflating the idea of having the contingencies with the act of using them. Because he didn't use them correctly at all.

Chimpman

Being cynical is a curse. Cecil will never trust anyone 100% hell i can believe he distrust Donald by a .01% and has a shutdown program in that body. I'm just bsing don't take that one seriously. Lol

Isaac

@Mori_ Literally no one here is saying that having the contingencies in place is a bad thing. We're taking issue with how he used them. At no point did Mark ever show that he couldn't be trusted. Dude is so trustworthy that he wanted to put SERIAL KILLERS in jail purely because it was the right thing to do. Like stop. If he was mad for a stupid reason, sure, but he's not. This is entirely valid thing to have a moral issue with. Mark has shown time and time again that he's a good person and wants to be a good person, many times at the potential cost of his own life. He's such a good person that he wouldn't even FAKE join the Viltrum empire when Cecil asked him to because he knew it was the wrong thing to do. Like stop, bro. There is no justifying how Cecil acted this episode.

Chimpman

There are some people in the comments who are saying the Alternate Mark's are irrelevant to whats going on when it's very relevant. Someone said "the show" is saying that all those fucked up Marks and that one Eve are not the same when in reality it's the characters just coping. The Mark we're following is coming close to some event that may or may not change him for the worse and the Mark has a horrible track record in the infinite universe of staying on the "good" side.

Isaac

@Rawfish36 Mark is not a gun pointed at you at all times. He is a gun that exists. That's it. A gun existing is not a valid reason to attack or threaten someone, ever. Cecil escalated, consistently. Made moves to threaten Mark with more reanimen. Mark already knew the reanimen existed. Subtly leading him into the white room and then having more of them appear is an implied threat, especially when they go to grab you.

Chimpman

Sheera talking 53:00 . You understand that his life started back when there was dinosaurs , he got alot of experience.

Royal Lucario

Djayyy Telling someone to calm down doesn't usually calm them down lmao. It's dismissing their anger and usually escalates the situation. ESPECIALLY when your anger is entirely valid. Mark has every reason to be pissed off about this. Darkwing and Sinclair are basically serial killers, dude (one of whom almost murdered a friend of his for a fucking science experiment). Cecil made no effort to change the direction of the conversation to a productive place. He was trying to put Mark in his place and exercise control over him, probably because he feels inferior.

Chimpman

@Gimme Dem Ankles Except he wasn't doing whatever necessary to protect himself. He was agitating Mark, trying to put him in his place and escalating the argument more and more until Mark got infuriated. "Whatever necessary" would mean he would try to calm Mark down, and he didn't. He TOLD him to calm down but that's not how you calm someone down lmao. Like stop.

Chimpman

Roshi is correct. Sheera you need to look at the bigger picture for once.

Royal Lucario

Because almost anybody defending Cecil is just consistently downplaying how bad he was here. I don't think I've seen a single Mark defender in this entire comment section pretend that Mark was in the right or that they were 100% on his side. The fact that the Mark side engages in good faith with the criticisms and Cecil defenders constantly downplay and deflect and just straight up ignore events in the episode says everything. Cecil is more in the wrong, but Mark is still obviously wrong, too.

Chimpman

Yes WE know the facts of that situation, however Cecil isn't omniscient. All he knows is what Mark tells him, and understandably he probably wouldn't take that at face value. Like what if this explanation is Mark feeding me BS, and he's secretly helping his father as a double agent. Regardless of how you explain this looks SUS. You happen be tricked to save some random world your father so happens to be on, when he was here not to long ago fucking shit up. SUS! We obviously know this to be on the up and up though. You have to put yourself in someone elses shoes to understand how they may come to conclusions, or might have some misgivings on things that their told.

Fenpai

this is the best episode of invincible ever, to me. EDIT: this show is robert kirkmans way imo of trying to teach us about manufactured consent. iykyk

RYC

Mark thinks he has humanity's best interest at heart. However, without Sinclair and Darkwing, they all would have lost to Doc Seismic. Humanity would've lost most of their heroes and been doomed. As for not alienating him, where do you draw the line? What are you willing to give up to please all-powerful Mark?

Quintin

You won the debate. You tldr'd it.

Isaac

If your points are bad, I'm going to call you delusional. Especially when you're being delusional. But fine, I'll try to relent. I only ever use insults after I dismantle the argument. If I was JUST calling you delusional, you'd probably have a point. They aren't relevant because they aren't Mark. "In all those universes, something happens that causes Mark to make horrible choices, leading to the World's downfall and this Mark is marching a fine line to being just another fucked up Mark. " Okay? Again, this doesn't mean anything. Where has it ever shown that this Mark is marching a fine line to being just another fucked up Mark? Show me the point please. Being angry that the government is employing serial killers? Damn, that's the line? Okay, well how about when he refused to even pretend to go along with the Viltrumite takeover purely because he knew it was wrong even though he knew it probably meant his death? If that's the line, then oof. How about when his dad beat the shit out of him and Mark never relented despite being so outclassed and was only spared because his dad couldn't go through with it? Where's this line? The only time we EVER see Mark supposedly go into "evil" mark mode is when there are people actively hurting him and his family. Angstrom was throwing him through realities with different time and space all the while threatening and hurting his family and he only killed him after being pushed to a point. And even then he felt like absolute fucking garbage for even killing that one person that arguably deserved it. Like stop. The other Marks aren't relevant. They just aren't.

Chimpman

Nah being scared is 100% a valid justification are you crazy? Mark isn't just some normal 19 year old, he can solo the entire planet in minutes. Cecil is 100% justified in take precautions even if Mark hasn't shown any violent actions yet. At the end of the day Cecil isn't there to be Mark's friend. He's there to defend the planet. He told Mark to calm down several times, and offered to speak to him as well.

Freeofgreed

I think when you have the most powerful person on the planet, who has put his life on the line multiple times to fight for said planet, you don't do things that could push them away and alienate them. It's just not smart. Do you not think Mark has humanity's best interest at heart?

Jaden Coleman

@Isaac Yes, no one is saying that he shouldn't have the contingencies, but nothing Mark has done was showing that Cecil had to be afraid of him in that moment. It was ego, not fear. He wanted to put Mark in his place to stand above him. That's it. You're acting like you can't gage someone's tendencies through their actions in the past. Just because someone COULD do horrible things, you don't assume they will at the drop of a hat because they're angry.

Chimpman

Let me deconstruct how bad your points are to show that you're ALSO buggin'. "So we're just gonna ignore the fact Mark broke into the PENTAGON???????" Mark has been consistently allowed into the pentagon almost all the time. No one would be saying this if he had entered under any other emotional state besides anger. Stop. You can make this argument but it's so faulty it doesn't really hold up to any scrutiny within the context of the show. This isn't OUR pentagon. "Mark broke into the Pentagon and refused to leave. You damn right Cecil threatened him first" Again, stop using this argument. Mark doing the first bad thing doesn't make Cecil's later bad things justified. The only neutral thing Cecil does this entire situation is at the very beginning when he tells Mark that they should talk. "Despite the fact Mark is still yelling, Cecil calmly tells him that Darkwing and Sinclair have been "severely psychologically reprogrammed" and are repaying their debt to society and Sinclairs reani-men are now made from donated corpses instead of live people. MARK CONTINUES YELLING ANWAY because he doesnt like that answer." And? What does him yelling while he's angry have to do with anything? The reprogramming is fucked up and I'm not even gonna get into that. The corpses aren't even the issue. This isn't addressing the issue Mark is having which is Sinclair and Darkwing are SERIAL KILLERS who are getting carte blanche to do their work again. "(even tho the threats didnt happen until after Cecil had already calmly explained his decision to use Sinclair and Darkwing)." Being calm doesn't make you right in the argument lmao. Stop using this as an excuse. If I calmly explain to you that I'm killing your family in front of you, does you getting heated as a response make me correct? This is retarded thinking, stop using it. The fact is, Cecil wasn't doing anything to deescalate. He was dismissing Mark's extremely valid concerns about the fact that serial killers were being used (one of whom almost murdered a friend of his in cold blood btw) "Maybe if he had calmed down like Cecil told him when he first got there he woulda been calm enough to pay attention to his surroundings instead of blindly following Cecil around the building 🤷🏾‍♀️. When they entered the white room, the very first thing Cecil said was for Mark to go home and Mark said NO." Cecil did nothing to even attempt to calm him down (even though he's supposedly SO scared of him that he needs to attack him lmao). He dismissed Mark's feelings, acted like he was being crazy for taking offense, implied he was remotely comparable to the very murderers he's so angry about and then subtly lead him into a room to try and ambush him. Stop pretending Cecil has no agency. Cecil NEVER intended to "talk" with Mark. He made his decisions and was going to stick with it. Everything he did was escalatory from the getgo. All he did was act passive-aggressive and try to check Mark's ego instead of trying to solve the problem. He wanted to feel powerful and in control. That's it. Having the contingencies is obviously the correct choice. The issue is, he wasn't just HAVING the contingencies. He used them because he's on an ego trip and needed to feel in control. At no point was Mark EVER going to attack Cecil. We've all seen enough of Mark, Cecil included, to know that Mark would never attack him like that. The fact that he didn't fucking knock Cecil's head off AFTER going through all that and being in insane amounts of pain is a testament to that. You're using all this logic in a vacuum, but there isn't a vacuum, there's a fuckton of context. None of your points make any sense if you put them in the context of the story so far. Seriously, though. Stop using the "broke into the pentagon" bit. Mark has consistently been allowed there, ESPECIALLY in the last however many months it's been since he started training. You're only using that as an excuse because Mark was angry when he went in.

Chimpman

A lot of the hypocrisy comes from the fact that Mark is willing to try to view his dad as redeemable, despite Nolan killing more people than Sinclair and Darkwing combined. Obviously Sinclair is more personal to Mark because he’s seen the effect it had on his best friend’s partner. But it’s still a level of hypocrisy. I get that people think Cecil should be more trusting of Mark by this point. But keep in mind, Nolan was also highly trusted and saving people up until he killed the guardians and switched up and slaughtered hundreds to thousands of people. I’d say Cecil has every right to worry about Mark getting violent. Especially since we know how little control he can have over his emotions.

Adam Lawson

this situation happened tho. after WW2 the US and more specifically the military industrial complex and nasa took all the nazi scientists from germany and stuff and let them live and work with them in exchange for their knowledge and all that. It happens in real life too. I think it's a reasonable thing to do when things are at stake. Mark was justified in his discomfort, but his hyped up reaction and anger was way too high and would scare literally anyone. he is way too damn powerful to be throwing tantrums like that. imagine if superman was letting himself go to anger and shit?? absolutely not. control yourself. cant break in the pentagon and threaten the govt cuz ur a bit pissy about a decision and then complain when they counterattack

WarWolf

Loved the discussion You know it was a good one when the full government name starts coming out One thing I will say that is a bit off tangent is that we learnt from Angstrom in season 2 that pretty much a majority of alternate Mark Grayson’s end up evil or become a dictator of some kind. I think it’s interesting. I think it’s necessary to have counter measures against a person that has the potential to that. However I think Cecil played his card way too early. Although you could argue he was just afraid of where this conversation could lead to🤷🏿‍♂️ Edit: Final thing I’ll add is that because Cecil is a normal dude and Mark is the strongest person on the planet, a micro aggression from Mark is way different and will be received differently that a micro aggression from Cecil. The power dynamics are different.

GyX

Also, Sheera and Rudy said they want the most powerful person on their side. At that point you're going by who's powerful, not who's just or has humanity's best interest in mind.

Quintin

Also if you're gonna come in the comments to debate, refrain from throwing insults. We're all passionate geeks and nerds but don't cross the line of disagreeing with someone so much you start saying very lame stuff like saying "you're delusional." We're not gonna do that.

Isaac

I reckon it’s just trauma from seeing how far Omni man went, who also spent a shit ton of time around his wife. So if Mark were to lose control, it would go terribly. But I see your point.

Adam Lawson

Mark broke into the Pentagon, chased Cecil, demanded to have his way and refused to leave. Mark has a strong sense of justice and good intentions but refuses to see anyone else's point of view. It's his way or the highway.

Quintin

@Chimpman That's no what I'm saying. When I say having "No clue" I'm talking in the sense of not being able to be certain of the future. You have no idea what someone is capable of with certainty so you lean on the worst for your own safety. That's what I mean.

Isaac

I'm sooo looking forward to the next ep reaction/disscusion... I think we gonna have another longer one coming like this one. Knowing what this whole ep did with their dabate on Mark and Cecil.

Kevin Kovacs

They're at war - at any moment, a single Viltrumite could show up and wipe the planet only having Mark and a couple of GDA contingencies to slow them down. Cecil's job is literally to defend Earth against an impossible enemy

vesra

Really? Would you say the same of Cecil? If you think Mark is the only one "objectively" wrong, you don't understand what objective means, because Cecil did far worse than Mark did in this entire situation.

Chimpman

Mark never forgave his dad or even implies that he wants to forgive him. He's talking to Oliver to show that Omniman coming back to the planet would be a hard sell.

Chimpman

They are not irrelevant. Those universes and their Mark's are just as relevant to the argument. In all those universes, something happens that causes Mark to make horrible choices, leading to the World's downfall and this Mark is marching a fine line to being just another fucked up Mark.

Isaac

Isaac. Mark didn't fucking threaten Cecil until the very end at Guardians HQ. Point to me the time he threatens to hurt him or even IMPLIES to threaten him. Like stop, bro. I'm so tired of Cecil defenders acting like you need to do every single thing because you're afraid.

Chimpman

Nah Cecil gave him several opportunities to talk it out and tried calming him down and mark just didn’t give a fuck and the whole weapon in his head is a mixed bag bc u can understand both sides from an outside perspective but ultimately at the end of the day Cecil is right and mark is a hypocrite bc he’s ok w his dad brutally killing thousands with no sense of empathy bc his dads tryna be better, but these 2 guys that killed a FRACTION of the ppl Omni man killed aren’t allowed to redeem themselves and have to be in prison or dead? Sinclair we can understand bc he’s not in it to be a better person just for the experiments but darkwing is a completely different story that he didn’t show any care of hearing out. I hope he goes on to see his incredibly biased perspective and learn from it.

Adrian Fabila

Cecil's reasoning for his system makes sense but the way he dealt with trying to explain things with Invincible just aggravated an already precarious situation. Cecil literally faced down Omniman with teleporting before. I feel Cecil's weakness is his insistence on maintaining dominance and control over Invincible, rather than communicating with him as equals. If you have countermeasures against a superhero that betrays their trust, you better only use it if you never want to work with them again or you want to put them down permanently.

AG

Mark is allowed into the pentagon at a consistent and regular basis. Stop pretending him being there is some massive overreach. I'm so tired of this "broke into the pentagon" thing like it at all matters. If he had gone there calm, no one would be saying this because we know he's generally allowed there before the situation goes down.

Chimpman

Oh man that line from robot I just seen a video scrolling through YouTube and the title.The foreshadowing of what’s to come hits different 🤐🤐🤐

XClouding

The alternate universes are IRRELEVANT. They aren't this world's Cecil and they aren't this world's Mark. He's seen Mark TWICE almost die to Viltrumites even though he had zero chance of winning purely on the fact that he knew what they were doing was wrong. He is so convicted in his beliefs that he wouldn't even PRETEND to go along with Anissa like Cecil told him to. You're delusional, bro. Cecil has no reason to think Mark will go bad. It's fine to have the contingencies but Cecil is overreacting that ENTIRE time in this episode and the last except for the very first time he speaks to Mark and tells him "let's talk" which he was never going to in the first place, because Cecil had absolutely no plans to give in to Mark in any way. You can defend Cecil without downplaying how absolutely shitty he was being.

Chimpman

Fuck mark

Danger Tomato

He didn't go to help his dad. He went to help some random aliens and his dad ambushed him. Don't lie about the facts, bud. He was trapped on the planet and had to help at that point.

Chimpman

I get why Cecil did what he did, BUT how does he not trust Mark yet? How many times has Mark proved himself to Cecil? Cecil should know Mark wouldn't kill him even by how angry he is. He knows how he was raised by his mom and she knows how she feels about that. The Distrust is crazy given how many times mark has helped Cecil out as well as the world.

Adrian Dominguez

Isaac Cecil has EVERY clue. He's seen firsthand the lengths Mark will go to defend the planet. He nearly died twice to Viltrumites purely because he knew it was wrong and didn't even take the easy option of faking an alliance. Come on, bro. You're treating Mark like an adult and Cecil like a baby with no options.

Chimpman

🤣🤣Cecil got locked and became Pod Boss quick 💪😎

HBK 713 🏄🏾‍♂️

😂😂💯

Boogie

Cecil wrong for implanting that fail safe??? yea my ass

Boogie

cecil wasnt wrong overall but sending them niggas at mark is crazy

JotaroDrake

I wish we had more round table discussion with the crew like this. Just like how RTTV does it. Not just anime/animated series but everything.

Kevin Kovacs

yall missing the point where mark basically gave him an ultimatum which tilts control to the stronger person. Mark. Cecil's not gonna bet the planet on a guy who could literally on a whim wipe them all out.

Chad

Isaac you keep bringing up Mark breaking into a government building like it's the biggest issue here. If he's capable of breaking into a government building with EASE then your plan of action should be to subdue his anger, not worsen it. Engage in a conversation instead of dismissing his feelings, or treating him like he's a brainless child/unimportant, and build TRUST. Tell him your contingencies, tell him why you're employing the criminals he despises, and let Mark know you trust him as the ONLY line of defense. Mark gets more upset because Cecil can't trust him and compares him to his dad, which Cecil said he will never be.

The Real Yoda

This was a W reaction. The nuances are poignant and enlightening.

NovaVortex

Except it isnt homelander showing up, its a dude who actively showed you multiple times that he won't swing to kill even when it's actively harming him, only crashing out in extremes (like seeing his mom fucked up or actively seeing a whole race being killed off). As a normal person yea you're not crazy at all for immediately going for the gun in this situation, but Cecil isn't supposed to be a random person or citizen, he's supposed to be the safety general of the whole world, and to do that he needs to realize he can't do shit that actively pisses of the biggest defense line of the whole ass earth. His reaction as a person is very understandable and logical, as a safety officer of the world though, it was a failing

D Fud

Cecil has no clue though and has little trust in Mark's emotional state and neither would me or you when faced with a child who can easily kill me and will not leave me alone. Omniman scared the hell out of Cecil and Mark is marching on that territory.

Isaac

I will add maybe viltrumites are just sensitive and believe getting points across is with fighting considering we’ve seen everyone one get straight to boxing and explaining how their way is better and low morals. We even see Oliver first thought was why didn’t he just kill Cecil after he was nice to him the other day. They killed they own race to make a "stronger force" with just sounds dumb but that’s probably how they work. Given Mark is half human he has more sanity than the others but who knows. Just an observation

Ba-tes Cline

Mark was emotional, yea, but Cecil didnt handle it the best way either. When dealing with an emotional person, you de-esclate it, and Cecil kept escalating it. For one, Cecils delivery is patronizing, and he did throw low-jabs, and yea sure its logical, but the most logical thing, when dealing with not just a dangerous factor but also the ONLY viable defense line vs an incoming alien invasion is to take care of him. Doesn't mean he has to bend to Marks every whim, but from the start he couldve just stayed in the office, tried talking it out, talk about his experience, or even just say "This is the situation, theres no changing it. Ill tell the guardians about everything but that doesn't change the facts", Mark would still be pissy, but the conversation will have an end and then they couldve went from there. Instead he walked to the white room, showed him more of the corpses soldiers which is the thing that SET HIM OFF in the beginning, and then also revealed he has a chip up in his brain. That's just a bad way of handling it. He's logical sure, but he needs to have emotional intelligence to know when how to deal with situations like this. Logic isnt the only needed talent, you need to be enough of a peoples person to deal with fluctuating emotions so shit like this doesnt happen

D Fud

And Cecil began to compare Mark to his dad as if they're at all similar. Cecil was awful at handling the situation

The Real Yoda

Mark started off in the wrong imo, but cexil hamdled that so horribly its crazy, the second the guardians told him to stand fown he shpuld of liatened but instead he summoned corpses to fight for him

Burn-Out 23

kate stop the CAPPPPPPPPP

JotaroDrake

Except Homelander has proven to be an awful person that kills at any given moment. Mark puts his life on the line to protect his people/planet and tried to stop his mass murdering dad. The whole reason Mark is so upset this episode is because of the fucking evil, murderous people working under Cecil so why would Mark KILL Cecil or betray the planet?

The Real Yoda

This show is fucking peak

Tobi Abatan

I do agree that Mark was doing the most. But skating around the problem with go home and don’t make me put you in that category over a disagreement instead of relating to mark as the show clearly showed us doesn’t help either. Same as mark not helping by being hostile about it. I’m not on a side, they both too hard asses contradicting each other

Ba-tes Cline

Exactly. Cecil had to swing first.

Isaac

You're saying Cecil could have reasoned with Mark. He tried to. He told Mark to go home then he told him to settle down and sit so they could talk it over. He really tried. Mark wasn't having it. Cecil was not in the wrong in this specific situation. This was Mark being overly emotional.

Isaac

I will say everyone at fault but seems like a spiral from both. Mark came in hostile and Cecil came with logic and reason. Mark didn’t care just like Cecil didn’t so Cecil goes to the "punishment” just like the old director did to him. He could’ve reasoned with Mark about his own experience just like Marks feeling and maybe had some room for negotiations. Now both are on high nerves and Mark did start the fight but Cecil could’ve let it rock after the first squad went down. He wanted to show out after Mark asked is that all you got. Could’ve just took the L and still had Mark versus losing him and half of the guardians

Ba-tes Cline

Nah bruh imagine Homelander crashes through your roof and starts screaming demands at you, I’m not waiting for dude to start swinging at me, I’m already making preparations for my safety and making sure you’re no longer a threat to me before we do any type of discussion #TeamCecil

That guy joe

If you scale it down, this situation makes more sense for Cecil to be more in the right. Mark has the power to kill anyone, anytime instantly and effortlessly. If we scale him down, you can relate that to being a dude with a gun out at all times walking around. Now, imagine Mark with a gun out walking into a government building yelling at the guy in charge. Is it Cecil's responsibility to consider Mark's feelings and how to deescalate the situation? How would that go in a real world situation? Security or cops would be called on the guy with the gun. In this situation the re-animen were the cops for Cecil. The bomb in Mark's head could be interpreted as Cecil bringing out his own gun into the situation.

Jwong

The discussion at the end of the reaction solidifies that this episode is an all timer in the invincible series without a doubt.

Prince

Yes when you cock a pistol your putting one into the chamber. However I think the reason she tossed it is because she was over confidant, or as she put it, against industry and wanted people to go back to nature. An extremist we need to go back to monkey type shit.

Fenpai

I understand Mark's anger and frustration, but I definitely side more with Cecil. It'd be foolish to not have a contingency plan for Mark at this point. After everything that's happened. With Nolan. Too much is at stake

Orlandez Malone

Andddd another thing. Like other people said, Cecil wants to have his cake and eat it too. You can't be depending on Mark to defend Earth while also treating him like a child and withholding information from him. He has to put some trust in Mark for this to work out. He literally has no reason not to trust him in the moment. The one time Mark intentionally harmed someone it literally traumatized him. And it's not like Nolan "betrayed" his trust cause he knew off bat that he was lying about why he was on Earth. And even so, no matter how aggy Mark gets, he never harms anyone. And if he tried Cecil could've just teleported away. Had Cecil put some trust in Mark, they would've had conversations about Darkwing and the contingencies and it would have never lead to this. This man Cecil thought that the most powerful superhero on Earth was going to be a yesman...

Dimple Trauma

Another thing I want to put out which helps Cecil’s argument is that. When Cecil summoned the Sinclair monster in the White Room. Cecil didn’t even commanded them to attack Mark and just had them on stand by. But sense Mark is so hotheaded he instead attack the Sinclair monster instead, even though they were not doing anything to Mark. Cecil brought them out to defend himself and not using them to attack Mark. I’m on your side Roshi I HEAR YOU my dude. Team Cecil.

Christian Reyes

Not even Gordon Ramsay himself could help but blush at this dish you made, its that good. I would however add, that they did suspect Nolan from the start, and had always been suspicious of him. As the years went by though, they did begin to trust him. It was to the point he was able to assassinate the previous Guardians, and almost took over the planet, if not for Mark standing up to his father. I would say Cecil learned a valiable lesson to always be prepared, because you don't know if someone else would do the same, especially Mark. No matter what happened Nolan is still his father, he even stayed and helped his dad on a new planet he was living on, so Cecil's precautions are warranted.

Fenpai

Roshi the whole thing is Cecil was already being dismissive of mark telling him to go home. Yes Cecil had every right to walk into the room when he saw mark was being aggressive but immediately having the reanimen come out and still telling him to go home. Yes mark needed to calm down but mark didn’t threaten him until after he was threatened and Cecil unveiled the army of robots. Then Cecil only wanted to talk once he showed Invincible the device in his head. Yes invincible was doing way to much and I would’ve led his ass in that room too but Cecil attitude towards the people he supposedly depends on is the main problem. That could’ve been handled so much better.

JDGreen

roshi is correct, that is the theme of the episode HOWEVER cecil being in marks position in the past should have been way more understanding towards mark going off instead of making it worse

Travis

I understand Cecil's concerns, he's just trying to protect Earth and it's people but his logic and the way he goes about executing it is horrible. He should've realised his dishonesty and secrecy would just lead to Mark finding him untrustworthy and getting angry, reasonably so tbh considering what Sinclair's done. Mark wouldn't of crashed out so bad if Cecil had just been more honest about everything before hand and talked to him about stuff more. He also had the audacity to implant a bomb in his head before Mark even proved himself a threat which, contingency plan or not, is 100% not okay at all. That last fact alone makes Mark's crash out valid imo, we all would've done the same if we were Mark. Sheera was on point at the beginning, Cecil was literally turning Mark into the thing he fears.

MonarchXIII

Cecil isn't wrong about anything he does. Its all for the sake of protecting earth. He just went about it the wrong way. The difference between him and Batman regarding their contingency plans is that Batman doesn't act on fear. Cecil actions are out of fear of what Mark might do. Batman fully trust Superman to be a protector of Earth but plans to take him out are always at the ready just incase. That's why Superman doesn't trip about Batman plans despite knowing he actively looks for ways to subdue him. Because they have trust for one another. Cecil doesn't trust Mark at all and was to quick to pull out counters vs him. He should have known that it would take Mark alot more for him to turn on you than just letting murders work for him. Mark would have eventually left if Cecil stood his ground and told him how he is going to run shit.

Ichigoat

But Cecil was also dismissing Mark’s feelings. Like immediately Mark pulled up on him to talk to him, Cecil wasted no time to go to the White room to threaten Mark

Onyekachi Nkenke

Dont care bcus the debate was about the intial set off he didnt know that shit till Cecil was out of options and he was aiming a punch right at him. People watch the scene again

Revstarallstar .

Also correction. The show isn't telling us anything. The show is not saying what you think its saying for a fact. It's the characters themselves coping to relief themselves of the fear of what could happen and how very much possible it is.

Isaac

This comic section is giving me Civil War vibes

Johnny Soul

I think if cecil was honest from the beginning about the contingency plans and used his words better(rather than saying these plans are here to stop mark, he could have said this is a hail-mary option)this would have never happened.Its better to be honest from the beginning rather than being caught hiding something and then start telling the truth.

That Guy

He hugged him never forgave him and idk probably hugged him cause thats his dad that raised him for 17 years

Jjb

Biggest reason Mark wouldn’t do that is because he has no idea about Viltrumites. He’s just as clueless as Cecil on their whereabouts, maybe even less since Cecil was seen getting countermeasures for Nolan since the beginning

Chance

When like seriously when tf did mark say anything about forgiving his dad he never said this in any prior episode

Jjb

First of all, Mark is 19, he's young but old enough to be treated like an adult. I personally think his age is a non-factor here. Secondly, "In line"? You must be forgetting that Cecil needs Mark way more than Mark needs him. Mark could easily kill him with no effort or any real consequences. Mark is the A-Side here, not Cecil. Cecil is the one who should be "getting in line" and considering the thoughts and opinions of the superheroes in general. His actions and prideful attitude don't at all correlate to his actual position as a weak, replaceable human in the grand scheme of things.

Raven86

Wow.....a 17 minute discussion.....I'm not sure what was better....the episode or the round table discussion afterward

Psychboy

Doesn't matter what the show is saying. It will never, ever negate the possibility. Ever.

Isaac

Batman also had a countermeasure for him self and he doesn’t work with mass murdering criminals

Johnny Soul

Although its true he did essentially risk his life to go against his father, at the same time not even 9 months later he decides to help his father. For Cecil thats a pretty scary scenario, like imagine your Cecil and the most powerful person on the planet tells you he went to go help the previous most powerful person on the planet. Even if Mark were to tell him it wasn't that big of a deal, how is he to know Mark isn't compromised, and is now just continuing his fathers work. Also to the point of those he cares about on the planet, maybe Mark made a deal with his father and the other Viltrimites to ensure their safety? It's all based on trust which, btw, they did give Nolan even when they were investigating him, and they payed a significant price when they did leave their guards down.

Fenpai

Yeah bro implanting a weapon inside of your only hope against other threats is straight up a bad idea and marks better than me and you cause the appropriate response to that would be to give Cecil the homelander treatment honestly

Jjb

yeah mark needs to shut up as long as he is willing to forgive his dad. Like his dad mass murdering people pretty much for nothing besides to proof to mark "oh look these humans are so weak i can mass muder them so help me enslave the planet so i Dont have to kill them all." And he hugs him after finding him out in space. He cant talk about "sinclair and darkwin need to be in prison" when he hugged a man who killed more people than those 2 combined, and for shittier reasons than both of them.

bobo

Bro Mark helped his dad because he had no choice and was tricked and guilted into doing it hence his little brother and he doesn’t even know what’s going on with Omni man right now that’s why it’s separate with Allen The Alien and his half of the show. The point of the matter is Cecil could have talked to Mark and let him know his plans of using Darkwing and the bots as well as his countermeasures to stop him in case of emergency. How do you expect to build proper trust with your planet’s strongest ally.

Johnny Soul

Nah crash out is reasonable. Cecil did a big oopsie. The moment you put something in someone's body without their permission, you can't expect anything except a crash out. If you want Mark to work for you, you ain't doing it right, it's purely a control thing. Even Mark attacking the Pentagon is reasonable, Cecil starts pulling out 'ex'-villains, it's fair to assume something bad is up, either Cecil is compromised, or he was never trustworthy to start with. And other than property damage, Cecil was the one to escalate to violence, Mark was just yelling.

Just Gene

Haven’t seen the comments this lit since the Snowfall reactions

Paul Reyes

Bro morally questionable isn't the word to use here just say what he did was insane aint no question about it

Jjb

Bomb implanted in his head btw

Jjb

Batman did

Omar Bautista

dam yall let roshi talk next time

Ren

tell him to calm the f down and people like Omni man can be redeemed. Oh wait that's what Mark and Allen plan for Nolan. Mark is un-reasonable when putting in place the lives of non supers. Omni man can be redeemed but not Darkwing who went rouge after Omni mans attack or Sinclair who is a deranged individual who needs to be set on a better path

Omar Bautista

I really like that Lupa was trying to have a fun debate/argument. While Sheera and Roshi are having a heated debate even though both sides are right 😂

Christian Reyes

I didn't know that, feelsbadman for those who did. Thats why no one should watch trailers, just confirmations on new seasons and release dates, or if you can trust the studio in charge not to be cringe.

Fenpai

I fucking love these post discussions. Totally side with Cecil in this one, however he immediately fucked it up for me when he went and actually threatened Mark at Guardians HQ. Contingency plan is 100% understandable even if Mark fought Omni-man, because look what happened just like what, not even a year but 9 months later?! He went to go help the same person and his brother, so now Cecil doesn't really know how all that went down. Shit could be extra cooked, or be still ok but he's still the director of the GDA he can't take a chance like that. Definitly could of handled that better. Bro chasing Mark down with a ear shattering device thinking "I'm sure Mark will see things my way if I just keep using this" LMAO. Awesome episode, and with the direction this is heading things are gonna get spicy.

Fenpai

Batman might have plans to stop superman but he also trust superman a lot to know that superman won't kill people.

Naw1n

Exactly Kate and bum ass immortal need to fuck off😂

Reckless Company

14:30 lmao Sheera Mark walked himself in the damn room, Cecil has no power to move Mark around

rayman

Side discussions Immortal is highly getting off my nerves anyone else feel the same?

Reckless Company

how

ur mom

ClassicManD said it fantastic Watch his short on the discussion!

Jadon

Roshi I'm wit chu dawg lol 😆 they not finna jump you lol dang let the man speak 🤣

Jadon

Funny how Invincible gets upset about criminals being used as weapons but that’s enough to justify letting a bomb off in his head for a good 5 mins. Let me ask you guys this though, what do you think Cecil was gonna do if he did get Invincible back to the base ?

Johnny Soul

Also in the white room mark tried to attack first idk whats this debate is now

Revstarallstar .

670 comments nigga damn

JohnnySmoke

Why would he do that? Everyone he cares about is on earth he wouldn’t do that. Also what the fuk Cecil or anyone on earth is going to do if mark wants to leave his one trump card was used and thrown away because he decided not to trust mark

Jae

Sheera was screaming her point like Mark was. I’m with Cecil with they Roshi was portraying the point just like him. Put it in perspective that was a good debate

Revstarallstar .

Bro what are you talking about ? Issac brought up variants not me. I was just introducing evidence that separates him from the others but I see how your brain works as well. You might want to tune it up bro 😎

Johnny Soul

Aye bro this is too much of a read for anybody. 😂

Richard

People who aren't siding with Cecil, just be aware the Cecils in alternate universes WERE RIGHT. Let's not forget the Levy Angstrum alternate universe plots. Mark has been known in MANY universes to straight up turn on the world for whatever complex reasons ( some probably don't even involve the Viltrumite mission who knows because it's infinity ). Cecil in this universe has every reason to be like this toward Mark.

Isaac

Lupa didn't have a point, Batman and Cecil aren't the same nor a fair comparison. Batman is a person who has contingency plans and then a contingency for the contingency plus batman can fight most of the justice league without his contingency, cecil is some regular old dude with fake skin lol. Cecil did the right thing, he tried to talk and calm down mark, offered further conversation and even told his reasoning while Mark continued to act belligerent

Arsean Wilbon

Cooluno what are you doin here lol

Jadon

And you know what happens when you break boundaries? You turn the people into things you didn't want them to turn into...

Naw1n

Mr. Chimpman. I'm not going to reply to the entire essay you wrote. You may live and dwell in these comments, but I sure as shit don't. I'd rather be sly than loud and dumb.

Mr. Glasses

I understand Cecil's position though. His job is to protect the planet, not to make friends, to be morally superior, or to be a hero. His job is to make the tough calls no one else can or wants to make. Because if, just IF, Mark decided to betray the planet before this happened; Or if Mark was mind controlled or something. Who, or what could stop him? Cecil's job is to make sure he has an answer for that. So I get it. But imo, Cecil went about this the completely wrong way. Having his brother secretly surveilled, secretly implanting a deadly sonic chip in Mark's head? Not saying he shouldn't have done that, but why did it need to be a secret at this point. To show good faith in Mark, he could've been straight up, like; "Listen Mark, you may not be dangerous, but what you and potentially your brother can do, is. You're the most powerful individual on the planet, and with that, comes additional sacrifices on top of ones you already make. You will need to be monitored and chipped so that people you've fought to protect don't ever regret you weren't if you change how you feel about us or there is an accident. Moreover, if you were to lose control, for whatever reason, you don't regret you weren't either." Something along those lines to lay it plain how serious this all is. As far as that white room situation though? Mark had understandable reaction to seeing two problems he thought he put away, being not only NOT in jail, but working for someone he trusted. One of those problems hurt and traumatized someone close to him. In response, Cecil took him the white room and presented more of things he was already upset about to use for his own protection. And threatened mark that he'd use them if HE felt threatened. At that point Mark had yet to make a direct or indirect threat against Cecil, until AFTER Cecil made that point. So in my eyes, regardless of how calm he was about it; Cecil escalated that.

Keevondrick Womack

so we are judging our mark on alternate marks the very thing the show continues to tell us not to do? yea we can see how your brain works.

Trequan Williams

I bet you guys wouldn’t treat Superman like this 👀

Johnny Soul

Trust is flimsy. Though Cecil doesn't know, there have been MANY varient Mark's who turn coat and fucked the world. We know that having seen it and all the Cecil's in those universes were correct to break those boundaries.

Isaac

I’m team Cecil, Mark can literally destroy planets. Asking mere mortals to play fair is bullshit. Mark BROKE into the Pentagon, Cecil was right to go back to the the white room and pop ULT

Jesse’s finga paintin

Bro we talking about this Mark the one that his future companions saved because they know he is the good one the one who literally fought his father for earth and almost died and had saved the planet countless times plus the other variants agreed with Omni man not this one

Johnny Soul

This episode is that damn good.

Isaac

Everyone's a nerd having debates. That's how good this show is.

Isaac

Tell that to the variant Mark's who were also probably good boys til something happened.

Isaac

Can y'all please let Roshi get a point, y'all over talking and interrupting him to make y'all case and wont even give him more than 5 seconds to speak lol. I understand y'alls passion but let the man speak.

Arsean Wilbon

N hes trying to take the hugh notal standpoint When he just helped his dad who murdered who knows how many people on earth

Deep

you act like cecil isnt valid for having measurements in place to stop mark. He is INVINCIBLE. Being scared is exactly the reason he has those things. Not to mention everyone forgets that all the heroes would be dead if not for cecils willingness to use D.A SINCLAIR lol

Gimme Dem Ankles

Uhm yes? Mark broke into government property and came in all emotional, coming at Cecil because he disagrees with his values of reforming someone to contribute to helping a world facing constant doom. That is a super powered child having a damn fit telling a grown ass man what to do or else. Yes Cecil has every reason to be legit scared and use whatever he wants to put this little boy in line.

Isaac

Guys Mark put his trust in Cecil. It would have been better if he discussed countermeasures just in case but to be sneaky with it is not cool. Mark has shown many times that he is with the good guys and only killed when he had no choice so the bomb is a little too much in my opinion.

Johnny Soul

invincible is like his name suggests, while Cecil is just a man. idc he needs to do whatever necessary to protect himself.

Gimme Dem Ankles

Let's be real they're both right and wrong. Mark is young and doesn't know that the world can't just run on good vibes and positivity. Yeah darkwing 2 and Sinclair have killed people but if their skills can be used for good it's the least they could do . And it's clear Cecil never truly trusted Mark even though he should have him the benefit of the doubt. Mark was raised by Debbie and she's an amazing mom who essentially kept his human side strong. I understand needing countermeasures for someone that strong but come on.

Dune

Sheera and lupa failing to apply any accountability to mark is ridiculous lol. Mark is a grown man who is impulsive, cocky, naive, traumatized and emotional. While what cecil did is assholish and morally questionable, giving a second chance to felons is exactly what he can and what governments do and he is right he needs to use them especially with an impending viltrimite invasion hanging over earths head. Mark brought that on himself with his actions and very much threatened Cecil and most likely Cecil would of been willing to have a level headed discussion about it, cecil would of still probably did what he wanted to anyway but always a chance they find a compromise. Cecil's only wrong in this is implanting that into his head as well as continuing to attack Mark instead of letting him run off to go tell people. Cecil should of instead just made the pentagon Mark proof with that sound not put it in his head.

Arsean Wilbon

I’m with Sheera

Johnny Soul

Why would he let Mark leave after he threatened him. For all we know Mark could've ran to a Viltrumite and turn coat. Obviously that wasn't gonna happen but letting Mark leave the way he did was never gonna fly.

Isaac

the amount of essay comments and roshi and sheera arguing is gold xD

Gmac paddiewac

Ima only make one comment on this but u 100% right , but at the same time you need to understand what if mark has something happen to him that makes him switch up, not even him betraying them but what if something can take over his body/ mind it's fucked up what Cecil is doing but at the same time if he didn't do these things and mark switched up for any reason earth would be toast so he's put things in place so they can be more safe even if mark is good. Even if he doesn't hurt people mark needs to settle down as well to as pulling up to the pentagon like that doesn't help the case of him not being someone to hurt people

Deep

That’s true, mark does need to take accountability, I do agree with that but I also do think that from marks pov he’s looking at Cecil like you never had any trust in me and that hurts, that would hurt anyone but the whole time even after Cecil used that sound on him multiple times not once did mark make him shed a drop of blood, he choked him, threatened to kill him but hasn’t done it yet bc that’s not who he is and if Cecil couldn’t see that before all this then their relationship was doomed from the beginning😭 my point is that Cecil has a right to be scared but the fact that he kept torturing him even after mark RAN AWAY, goes to show that he only wants to control him and not actually understanding his pov, mark definitely has to grow bc once these viltrimutes come then he’s really gonna have to grow up, I don’t like what Cecil is doing with bringing villains into the GDA but that’s something I’ll have to get over, like Cecil did with his boss and like how mark will have to be, that’s if he ever does( I’m not a comic reader)

AniyaNii

Yeah Kate and her brother can fuck off lmao

Delinda Arts

What Mark did was take him to his friends who he knew they would take his side in that situation. Cecil lost control of his Reanimen for a minute too which led him to try and call them off. Mark’s concerns about whether his reformed villains and their creations could be trusted was proved right while Cecil’s concerns about Mark’s powers and temper getting the best of him also was proved right. I wish Cecil told Mark that he was just like him at one point and managed that without powers and that Mark could make more happen with his powers. Both sides suck and I really wish that Mark had come in slightly more understanding and that they could have talked about it.

Anthony Chase

Best part is when mark was flying away and Cecil pushed the button listen mark better than me cuz I would have did the magneto shit and flew him to space like don’t make me let you down😂

Reckless Company

I disagree totally with the notion that it’s completely on Cecil to defuse this argument for 1. Mark is a person with godlike powers and abilities. The power dynamic between him and EVERY other being on earth is wayyyy skewed. Mark being emotional, angry and refusing to leave is very much grounds for Cecil feeling like he needs to protect himself. Initially in the white room he tells mark to stand down so they can talk about this and that the reanimen are there for his protection because he’s understandably scared. Marks ego sees this as a challenge. He literally says “you think you can shut me up?”. Mark is demanding that Cecil do what he wants and refuses to leave until he gets his way. By this point the most powerful man on the planet is yelling and screaming and obviously emotional, I’d be scared shitless too. Think of it like a large man and a small woman get into a fight, the smaller woman would likely understandably be scared if someone with 100 lbs on her is acting the way mark is. It’s that situation times 1000. Cecil attempts to talk mark down multiple times, mark refuses. This is on him.

Djayyy

Kate pissed me off her whole brother almost killed Rex and she wanted mark to let him go idgaf about her poor Rae got her body crushed and Rex head got shot they don’t got back up bodies like tf

Reckless Company

cecil lost me when he followed mark after he left. at that point anything mark did afterwards was warranted

Chance

This^^^^^

Rusty

I couldn't agree more, wonderfully put!

Zazies Beret

Exactly my point too, Cecil is acting way too confrontational with Mark and the rest of the superheroes for that matter for someone who claims to be terrified.

Raven86

Make somebody mad? By, saving his and every other superheroes life? lololololololololol

Femboy Enthusiast

Riding mark harder than......nvm

Femboy Enthusiast

Finally another yap episode. Honestly this discussion boils down to the fact that Cecil really doesn't know wtf he's doing. If your goal is saving the world, it makes absolutely no sense to anger the one person that has any ability to fight Viltrumites. Mark is wrong for throwing a tantrum because he's not getting what he wants. And he was definitely the aggressor by threatening not to leave, but at that point in the story there was no reason to actually believe that Mark would harm anyone else. And Cecil of all people should know that Mark doesn't respond well to intimidation. It didnt help that he was just walking away like he didnt give a shit about what Mark had to say. Before he even entered the white room he should've just called Debby or Eve. They're the only people that could've gotten Mark to leave and calm down. I don't understand why he thought that Mark would respond well to him violating his body like that. I understand why he has those contingencies and I would have them too, but obviously having Mark find out was a terrible idea. Mark's worst fear is people thinking he's like his dad. If Cecil had any ounce of actual sense he would've done the complete opposite of what he did. I wouldn't have given Mark what he wanted but it's important to understand that Mark is a naive kid. If Cecil had connected with him and actually told him why he was doing what he was doing, maybe he would've listened. This whole "I have more important things to worry about" demeanor Cecil takes on is exactly why people don't trust him. He needs them, they don't need him. If you're constantly patronizing and acting holier than thou then of course people don't trust you. Acting indifferent is not going to help your case. It just made it seem like the Guardians weren't even worthy of being treated like adults that hes supposedly relying on to save the world. And if you don't care then why am I working for you? Figure it out yourself then since you know so much that i dont need to know. So even though Mark was wrong initially, the way Cecil handled it made it so much worse and just showed his arrogance.

Dimple Trauma

Euhm yeah love you guys Im a bew member❤️🤣

Fotso Kouam Valere

So Cecil claims to be terrified of Mark, yet keeps doing things that clearly agitate him like allowing Darkwing to be free, installing a sound device in his head and jumping him with robots. Couple that with Sheera's point that Mark has no track record of causing harm to an innocent person, even in fits of rage, I'm calling BS on that whole "scared" excuse. Cecil just wants to feel like he has control over Mark, someone who was truly scared would be a lot more agreeable...

Raven86

New here Im with roshi only for the escalation part, I think mark makes no sense wanting to forgive his dad for everything that happened on earth he was only THAT mad because Cecil brought people that hurt HIM but does not care about people that were hurt by his dad… they had families and friends as well but he gave his father a chance… a man that has done wayyyy worse and on other planets. Not to say that he can’t forgive his dad but I think its hypocritical on his part when 2 bad guys that use their skills now to save his friend and fellow heroes now Cecil is a big bad guy… Now for the discussion I think people forget that mark and the others wouldve probably lost and be killed by Seismic if it wasn’t for these bad guys thats 1… then Mark which is an immature adolescent with a hard time controlling his temper because hes a kid gets mad and proceeds to attack one of the machines that saved his comrades? THEN HE storms into the FREAKIN PENTAGON… the son of OMINMAN is mad because he put the bad guys to good use when he wants to forgive daddy? Just imagine how scared not even cecil but EVERYONE was scared of him because he was already mad and didn’t want to calm down its like arguing with someone while waving a gun at them. You might not want to hurt anyone but you are being threatening to them. Cecil is definitely not a good guy but mark was definitely being the instigator in that situation🤣 so much so Cecil had to bring out everything. Cecil tried to deescalate at first but mark kept going all the way to the white room, why would he tell him explicitly “oh you’re threatening me? Let’s go in this room where I have a bunch of weapons to kill you” he tried at first to talk to him he wasn’t calming… the seemingly mad teenage VILTRUMITE🤣 but yeah Cecil still a piece of shit but Mark is not innocent either in this situation I think he doesn’t realize that him forgiving his dad and not trying to understand the POV of other is peak hypocrisy

Fotso Kouam Valere

This was y’all best debate thus far!! I’m wit it lol

Knight Philosophic

Facts. I still don't think Cecil was wrong though

Ezra

I love a show where you can say that mc was objectively wrong in the scenario where he is supposed to be seen as the one in the right

Casual

I agree that Cecil had a right to be scared and have contingencies but like lupa said, Cecil could’ve kept it a calm environment instead of bringing out those things which made mark even more mad. Mark had never killed anyone bc of an argument, he’s been through trial after trial in 2 years and has been through things that most ppl would crack on but he hasn’t, all of it is about trust and mark trusted Cecil, Cecil has the right to not trust mark but at the same time, trying to control a very powerful man like a dog won’t make him complicit, obviously, there were better ways for Cecil to go about it and he chose one of the worst, Cecil was literally in the same position as him at one point and your telling me Cecil couldn’t say some shit like “ I was in your shoes before, I understand how you’re feeling”? Cecil was nothing but passive aggressive and if mark REALLY WANTED TO, Cecil would be dead but he hasn’t killed him and that all the more goes to show that marks first instinct while being angry isnt to kill the person he’s arguing with, he genuinely believed Cecil was trying to shut him up and bc Cecil had no trust in him, that relationship was never gonna work.

AniyaNii

For me the point where cecil crosses the line is when he puts the bomb in marks head, prepping to protect earth from mark possibly turning is one thing, and so is reforming people(granted he should of came to mark before this with how much he's been working with and relying on him). Putting a trigger device in someone's head is making an enemy out of that person, at the least your puppet. And puts cecil in a similar light to nolan killing off the guardians to submit to viltrumite rule. Doing the lesser evil for the greater good, killing a few to stop a war that he believed would be a mass extinction(even if it was only out of his desire to protect his family).

Panda

Also I have a question if anyone can answer did anyone notice how mark got stabbed ep 1 an how much he healed when he got to the pentagon..um lol did miss something bc his healing factor is def up there??

Gorrr

you cant compare omni man and mark when mark has thing tying him to this world. Omni did, but didnt intially, and it tore him up so badly he literally fled. Mark has things to lose and ties to humanity, that comparison is not equal

suzukiri

I think it should be pointed out that Mark is being a bit of a hypocrite here. he's legitimately not giving the same consideration towards Sinclair and darkwing the same way he would his father, who arguably fucked up way harder than the other 2 did. It's not bad character writing, it's just Mark being hard headed, having messy emotions, and having a bit of cognitive dissonance all at once.

Dtox 555

Yes and No because superman is very different from invincible but it's always okay to have a contingency plan no matter the person earth comes first can't take risk on stuff like that

hanzorefrost

You can't make somebody mad then start calling for help that he's mad

cooluno_9

Roshi is right they buggin Cecil did nothing wrong🗣️🗣️🗣️

Hi

okay so in the season 3 trailer they just spoil the end of the last episode the cecil confrontation against mark. and it also spoils the sound attack cecil does, and also the fact that cecil and mark stop together. it was a really spoilery trailer.

bobo

Also the more i watch even when mark is destroying the robots cecil said calm down let’s talk and even after all that mark said “is that all you got” you know what that is. He is escalating the situation even further

Casual

At what point should Cecil reveal his countermeasures? Mark literally broke into the pentagon yelling and screaming and being belligerent. Cecil multiple times told him to stop and that he is scared.

Upfront51

Cecil literally was mad that he couldn’t control Mark. He use a contingency that could kill Mark but uses it when Mark was literally not hurting anybody… Yeah Cecil just wanted to showcase the power play. Cecil should’ve saw himself in Mark there, and help him

Tellyg47

Mark started this shit Cecil went in there cuz he was scared mark step forward the reanimate men blocked his path and mark immediately punched bro head off when all he did was step in front of him so Cecil did what had to do

Kingmakaii

No I think Lupa had a great argument, just look at Batman, he never introduced his counter measures until it was absolutely peak necessary, should he have them? 100% yes but not for every time someone decides they have a bad day, pull them out when you straight up know theyre about to become a villain.

Rusty

Also he told him to go home once and the was last episode he did it because he was hot headed and was not gonna think properly when he’s pissed so even if mark wanted to talk about it he wasn’t going to rationalize

Casual

holy fuck 600 comments in 3 hours is crazy

Alan

Great convo at the end I love it, love the drama

MrGuy3000

To be fair, it's not like Cecil was ever willing to hear Mark out either. Let's not pretend there was any actual discussion to be had there.

Chimpman

They both got good points. But over all. I can't never work with someone who put a camera inside mark's room when he got his power when he was 17. The keyword here is: trust

Naw1n

Roshi clutched the 1v2 lupa had an awful argument

Upfront51

Literally bro cecil was just trying to talk to him

Casual

Cecil was only trying de escalate the situation once mark started to try to get close to him was when he started to get physical. You don’t know what he going to do when he gets close to Cecil. If he trying to threaten him he is literally proving the point of why he brought him into the white room he felt threatened.

Casual

I don't fault Cecil either. As soon as Mark saw that Cecil was still using Sinclair creations and Darkwing, he was not trying to hear Cecil out, lol. The Guardians trusted Omni-Man, and we saw how that turned out, so you bet your ass I'm going to put a precaution in his son because at the at end of the day, none of the Guardians except maybe Immortal could stop Mark if he actually wanted to hurt them. Mark was ripping those things apart with his bare hands. I got flashbacks of when Omni-Man killed the Guardians. Also, we've seen how bad it could get if Mark sided with the viltrumites in those alternate futures from season 2. Nobody could stop him.

Ezra

Why are all the crazy bitches bad? Damn….Moving on, here’s the thing about Mark & Cecil: Mark was understandably upset, but definitely too aggro for a paranoid old agent like Cecil to sit still. That one zombie touching Mark was taken as an act of aggression. At that point Mark was like imma fight my way outta here & expose him but at that point it still might’ve been fixable in time The problem is Cecil was trying to do damage control, but his damage control made the situation worse. Trying to force him to the ground with that frequency was unnecessary & where it reached the point of no return. That sound was painful enough for Mark to think Cecil was trying to kill him, especially with those reanimen jumping him while he was down.

Offw0rlder

Cecil: Mark go home Mark: no * walks to White room door* Cecil: Mark go home Mark: no * walks into white room* Mark: we’re am I? Cecil: GO HOME!!!

Zukito

nah bro

Skye Brooklyn

and then he got these reaniman who cant even take down mark who doesn’t even use half of the power a regular viltrumite would use against them. he has no contingency plans for a full takeover hes cooked

DatKid_Kaneki

If the person in front of me was a mad Superman I’d be scared too.

Kami_Psy

Kevin. 1. He says it ONCE. Also, it wasn't actually an invitation to talk because we can see everything he does afterwards. Saying "let's talk" but obviously making it clear that you've made your decision and there's actually no discussion to be had isn't talking lmao. It's deciding and dictating. We know how language and implication works. 2. Mark killed one person who was attacking him and his family, severely injuring his mother and threatening their lives, while also flinging him into different dimensions for days or weeks at a time. You're being dishonest here. There are clearly levels to what is justified killing and what isn't. 3. Thank you for acknowledging that. Most people in these comments can't seem to recognize that just because Cecil was right to have contingencies, that doesn't mean he made the correct decisions. 4. He's angry and yelling. I'm never gonna pretend that Mark was making the correct choices here, though. He was clearly overreacting and being demanding. I don't think that really changes the argument, though. I can easily acknowledge Mark's faults and the shit he did wrong while also recognizing that Cecil made far more bad decisions that lead to the confrontation than Mark did. The worst thing Mark did was refuse to leave without Sinclair and Darkwing being behind bars.

Chimpman

It's called being passionate just like how you're passionate being a cunt bitch. Am I serious about it? No so stfu you dog.

Grimm

I agree that Cecil did grow and develop. But that took years for him to do. But my point is he’s not giving Mark that same amount of time to develop. He’s expecting Mark to deal with it and move on when he himself didn’t do that when he was put in the same situation. I also did say that I think Mark is being a hypocrite.

Danye Loodle

also to point out. cecil NEEDS mark, CECIL NEEDS MARK. end of story. once u do smth like this it is over😭

DatKid_Kaneki

Cecil's point actually doesn't make sense in my opinion, at least the way he went about it. I think it was more a strategy out of fear, and not necessity. I don't actually even think he thought logically about it for a second because the blowback had no other way he could spin it. Firstly, even though Mark approached him upset, he had already responded and showed more maturity than Cecil himself did at an older age when he went directly to cecil to discuss it instead of shooting them point blank in the head. His contingency also doesn't make sense to me because Mark is half human, with a human mom that he has a strong bond for, friends to keep him grounded, and fought FOR them and his planet against his own father knowing he stood no chance. The best contingency plan for Mark you had available was the fact that he has something to lose. There is literally no sense in secretly implanting him with a weapon that has a dead man switch without him knowing. At the very least you could develop the weapon as a standalone and claim it's purpose is to be used against any viltrumites who come again. That way you don't betray his trust, and he also gets a subtle message that it can be used as a deterrent for him as well without being a direct threat. I understand Cecil's job is to protect the earth, and the whole "good guy" speech is in reference to himself and the decisions he has to make. But for someone that has been shown to be really smart, that was really dumb. There's no way Cecil genuinely believed Mark was going to kill him over a disagreement after everything that's happened up to this point. Not only did he show a disregard for Mark as a person, but he went so far as to show that he doesnt trust Mark even remotely without him, by rigging the remote (which presumably would always be on him) to permanently ring if it was destroyed in any capacity. That goes beyond fear.

suzukiri

ok nah u fuck off u didn’t listen then bc said let’s talk at least 2-3 times and at least 1-2 calm downs. cecil asked him to calm down so he doesn’t feel like he’s about to fucking die so they have a proper conversation. mark did absolutely nothing to deescalate the conversation. he had a right to be angry but he doesn’t see how his power is scary and walking around screaming as an all powerful dude i’m terrified off the bat

Skye Brooklyn

I just enjoy the fact that arguments can be made on both sides. I said to myself, Invincible needs to come out swinging this season, considering the other Amazon Prime show Vox Machina did that and then some.

DevilMayCarter

Dont worry Roshi, i got you cuz Sheera and Lupa BUGGIN. I dont know what show they was watching: "That was not the way to introduce it, Mark didnt do anything wrong" So we're just gonna ignore the fact Mark broke into the PENTAGON??????? That shit is mad illegal, so before anything else happened Mark was ALREADY in the wrong from jump street. The second he showed up, he was wrong so that whole Mark did nothing wrong bullshit can go in the trash. Then Mark begins following Cecil around the building demanding answers hes NOT owed cuz lets be clear, Mark is an 18yr old kid. He is not Cecil's daddy and he is not Cecil's boss, Cecil is the leader of the Global Defense Agency and he does not have to run his decisions by Mark. Mark's lucky he got the explanations he got cuz he wasnt even owed that much. "Cecil threatened Mark first" Mark broke into the Pentagon and refused to leave. You damn right Cecil threatened him first (even tho the threats didnt happen until after Cecil had already calmly explained his decision to use Sinclair and Darkwing). Why dont you go break in the Pentagon right now and see what happens. You are going to get VERY threatened. They gon threaten you 8 ways from Sunday before your toe crosses the threshold cuz why is you here? By rights, Cecil coulda sicked those reani-men on Mark the second he broke into the Pentagon if we keeping it a buck. "You have to apply some logic and say let me try to talk him down first.......he should try to de-escalate him" Cecil literally did that. The second Mark came into Cecil's office and started yelling, the first thing Cecil said was "calm down", Mark ignores him and keeps yelling. Despite the fact Mark is still yelling, Cecil calmly tells him that Darkwing and Sinclair have been "severely psychologically reprogrammed" and are repaying their debt to society and Sinclairs reani-men are now made from donated corpses instead of live people. MARK CONTINUES YELLING ANWAY because he doesnt like that answer. While they were still at the Pentagon, Cecil told Mark to calm down and leave 5 TIMES and 5 TIMES Mark ignored him and REFUSED. I dont understand how Sheera and Lupa are acting like Cecil never gave Mark a chance. He gave him plenty. "Of course if you just put him in this room hes gonna be upset" Cecil did not put Mark in the white room, Mark followed him willingly. Nobody made Mark walk into that room. Mark was so angry and emotional that he literally was not paying attention to where he was going and that is not Cecil's fault. Maybe if he had calmed down like Cecil told him when he first got there he woulda been calm enough to pay attention to his surroundings instead of blindly following Cecil around the building 🤷🏾‍♀️. When they entered the white room, the very first thing Cecil said was for Mark to go home and Mark said NO. "You dont know if Darkwing is gonna cooperate" Cecil had him "severely psychologically reprogrammed". Based on what we know about Cecil, with how seriously he takes his job and the 800 back up plans he has and all the contingencies he has for every superhero, do you REALLY think Cecil would EVER let Darkwing see the light of day if he thought he was still a danger to society? If Cecil thought there was even 1% of a chance that Darkwing could flip hed have that mfer up under the jail for the rest of his life. They put Donald back together like 50 times and they did it so good the mfer didnt even know he was a robot. Rae got chewed up in somebodys mouth and got put back together. You think a government that can do THAT doesnt know how to make sure a mfer is permanently reprogrammed? "Cecil didnt even give Mark a chance to say he was threatening him........he coulda asked if we're gonna have a normal convo or not and give him a chance to say yes or no" So i gotta wait for a mfer to verbally announce their threat before i arm myself? What if he decides not to answer and just attacks me without announcing his threat first? Then what? Then my head is knocked off cuz hes faster than a bullet and i would never be able to arm myself fast enough if i waited for him to announce it first. "The instant distrust" Again, Mark broke into the Pentagon and immediately started yelling and refusing to listen, so yes i instantly distrust you. But beyond that, they literally showed us why Cecil was immediately afraid. When Cecil was in that exact position with his boss having reprogrammed those 2 villains, what did Cecil do? He immediately killed them. So Cecil thinking back to when he was just like Mark, hes thinking "dear god, i hope he doesnt react the same way i did". He does not assume Mark will have the same reaction but he knows its a possibility so he calmly walks to the white room to prepare in case Mark chooses to get violent like Cecil did. And the entire time hes walking to the white room he is calmly explaining himself and attempting to de-escalate Mark and Mark is blatantly refusing all de-escalation attempts "Mark is not a criminal. Mark has never done anything wrong, you cant compare him to his dad, he doesnt have the same track record as his dad" But thats the thing, Mark can be compared to Nolan because for 20 years Nolan wasnt a criminal either, he had a spotless track record for all that time. For 2 decades Nolan followed the rules and the law and protected the planet, not doing anything wrong.........until one day he did. One day he woke up and said "aight, time to fuck shit up". If Mark never having done anything wrong is a reason for why Cecil shouldnt be afraid of Mark even when hes angry and aggressive then that applies to Nolan too. By your logic, nobody shoulda been afraid of Nolan either until he gave them a reason to be afraid. At the end of the day, Mark can say "im not like my dad" til hes blue in the face but we didnt think your daddy was a bitch either so we dont truly know do we?

Alexis Sullivan

@Grimm THANK U batman literally almost NEVER uses the contingency plans to the point they had to make separate comics about it! even when it felt like the justice league could turn on him he still kept them hidden

DatKid_Kaneki

Facts, with all the bruises on my back, I can't even sleep at night, I would be dreaming about my getback

Kreed

i mean there is a reason why Batman doesn't do what Cecil did to Superman because his smart enough to know that would send Superman to the deep end and that Batman trust him. Which he gained by seeing him fight for Earth like Mark has. Also Batman definitely has other plans which didn't involve putting something inside Superman body.

Grimm

It wouldn't be just anyone though, if your friend or wife were cooking in the kitchen and you both got into a passionate argument. Would you pull out a gun while they're waving the knife around? I'd wager not personally

Kreed

Yes he said it this episode but last episode he told him to calm down and he didn’t so then told him that he trying to reform these people and told him to give him the same privilege that mark has, he killed someone and trying to make up for it. that what Cecil is doing with these people once that didn’t work he brought him into the white room. He tried to tell him what he was doing and mark didn’t want to hear him out so he went into the white room because he was scared for his life. He gave him 2 chances to calm down and didn’t

Casual

When I saw her toss the gun, I immediately thought, "There's one in the chamber," but maybe that's only when you cock it. I'd like for someone to correct me because I don't know much about guns.

The Lonely One

bruh your talking about people are government bootlickers bc they agree with a cartoon character and u talkin bout who wouldn’t be fun at parties nigga

Skye Brooklyn

S tier writing in this show. The optics are crazy. I see both sides but I'm with Mark and The Guardians cause I just couldn't stand for that. Imagine someone hurts a shit ton of people in front of you, goes to prison, then a few years later you see them wearing a police uniform. Then you go to the station and ask why they are letting this person work there and they say "Because we don't waste talent". Nah fam.

Don'tReadMyUsername

Mr. Glasses. Acting calm doesn't mean you're making calm decisions or using calm logic. Notice how you didn't address any of my argument and instead just made some sly "loudest people always have the most to say and are wrong" bullshit point. Make an actual argument and dismantle mine or shut the fuck up lmao. It's always the people that can't back their points up that do the shittalk.

Chimpman

Point two wouldn’t apply in all states. Mark would be considered innocent because, while he had the option to retreat, the aggressor explicitly threatened to kill his family. This qualifies as self-defense on behalf of others, which the law tends to be more forgiving toward and you no longer have a duty to retreat. Even if retreat were possible, the law recognizes emotional lapses in judgment. For example, there have been cases where a father walked in on his best friend SA his daughter. If the best friend ran away and the father pursued and killed him, courts have shown leniency, considering the father’s reaction a natural emotional response. In one such case, the father faced no jail time because he demonstrated remorse by calling the police afterward. Given these legal precedents, Mark would likely be deemed 100% innocent, and his actions could be considered a justifiable killing.

bob berry

sheera talkin bout “i see both sides” and her veins are popping out from defending mark

Skye Brooklyn

LMAO they was jumping roshi so bad they brought out the governments 😭

Mykai Skinner

Props to you Roshi for that 2v1 discussion. After seeing what Viltrumites can do after Nolan and Anissa I don't blame Cecil at all for putting that device in Mark's head. Is it morally correct? No but as the episode points out you either be the good guy or the guy who saves the world. These contingencies are necessary because we've got this emotional teen, the strongest person on earth, who could easily reenact what his father did if he wanted. We don't know if this man is gonna go the tried and true Superman route or he could turn into something like Brightburn which we've already seen from the other dimensions with Angstrom Levy. After Mark himself said people change, if I was Cecil I'd reach for that switch too.

MightyBird

Alex So? It's still viltrumite logic. "Be logical, you're letting your emotions cloud the logic." Cecil is using the same argument Viltrumites do. This is just true.

Chimpman

Thats the thing, assuming the writing is as good, The stress mark has, trying to face the reality of being a viltumite and being the only one able to stop them. Thats the result of him desperately trying to cling on to his humanity. The only thing stopping him is the morality his mom imbued in him. He has no mentor to look to, Immortal is a self righteous prick. Cecil should be very careful about introducing shades of grey to him.

baja

No, he isn't. He's wrong in the logical sense but in terms of the fight, he's objectively in the right. Cecil did everything wrong to contribute to how things ended up. At no point did he actually attempt to deescalate.

Chimpman

Bro, fuck off. No, he didn't. Rewatch the episode. He says "let's talk" once but he's entirely dismissing Mark and telling him to fuck off the entire time. He's being passive aggressive and dismissive of everything Mark is saying. That is objectively an escalation.

Chimpman

now if mark take his family and leaves earth for cecil to defend against the viltrumites then what? Immediately making Mark an enemy when he showed no signs of betraying them beforehand, while he was not angry was so stupid and potentially could have lost them their best chance of saving earth if mark wasn’t such a good person in general , i understand the need for protection but i think the way cecil presented it was just a big way of telling mark that he did not trust him, which is dumb. Another way he could have told mark is by saying “hey I got this stuff that can kill viltrumites” mark is smart enough to realise that would mean him too, instead of making it such an obvious threat from the jump🤷🏾‍♀️ idk

Tianna

YoungSalsa. Bro, so? "People change" doesn't mean Mark is going to flip on a dime and kill Cecil right there because he's pissed off. Stop being obtuse. Cecil should know the person that Mark is wouldn't do that. Even with that line. Grow up, bro. You can defend the contingencies while also recognizing that Cecil made all the wrong decisions the moment Mark came to the pentagon.

Chimpman

Him being a kid also makes it even scarier.

Isaac

Kratos voice: "ROSHI! DROP ALL 10 EPISODES OF SPIDER-MAN NEXT WEEK AND MY LIFE IS YOURS!"

Carlos

Cecil is dismissing Mark's entirely valid concerns. A real pragmatist would have sat down and tried to discuss things with Mark. At no point did he even attempt to really have a discussion. All he did was try to puff his chest out to Mark and seem big. Stop the cap.

Chimpman

Which proves mark wasn’t that mad he was following and talking to him Cecil didn’t want to talk he just want mark to obey.

bob berry

Mark is valid just as much as Cecil to a point but out of all the niggas you gun hire you hire the two people Mark the only viltrumite on your side hates Cecil could have find other people to work for him it's not like those bots or Darkwing can go up against viltrumites anyway why risk the relationship Mark and him had. I'm on Mark's timing

TT

Shout out to Roshi for always catching the themes and parallels of these shows. He consistently pays attention, which isn't easy when you're also reacting for an audience.

Co

That’s different cause Mark is a gun being pointed at you at all times, Cecil has to be a couple steps ahead because mark is the strongest person on the planet. That like if someone is walking towards you with a knife and you have a gun on your hip, would you tell them to stop first or would you pull the gun out first then tell them to stop?

Rawfish36

removing or having nolan there cecil is still doing this fuck shit lmao have u been watching the series

DatKid_Kaneki

but they dont. it doesnt rescind the point that superman can kill anyone in a second. at the end of the day it isnt really about marks father. if they had the chance to be able to do that to nolan they would have regardless if he betrayed or not. thats the point

DatKid_Kaneki

Not naive, I understand Cecil for being scared, but for it going that far, was Cecil’s fault. Plus I don’t think you’re naive for your own opinion. It’s a show

RedXNinja

Cecil dead ass a cop had his guns drawn on Mark saying some damn "your scarring me"

cooluno_9

Freeofgreed 1. I've seen the entire season so far. None of what happens in episode 3 changes this argument. It's entirely irrelevant. 2. He told Mark that they would talk ONCE. Every other time he tells Mark to do anything, he's telling him to calm down and go home. These aren't talks. Why are we pretending that Cecil was EVER actually trying to have a discussion? We know he wasn't, it's obvious. He was trying to exercise control. Don't bullshit me, bro. 3. No one is saying Cecil wasn't right to have contingencies. I even make that point in my original comment. Why are you pretending that's my argument? Stop making a strawman and address the actual point. 4. Cecil being afraid doesn't justify him attacking Mark because Mark is angry. Mark was never going to attack Cecil. Cecil should know this. Mark nearly died to defend his planet from Nolan when he had ZERO chance of winning. He also nearly died to Anissa purely because he wouldn't even FAKE join the empire. He was ready to die purely out of principal that it was wrong. This is not someone that should scare you because he's angry and powerful. He is letting his fear and anger about Omniman project onto Mark.

Chimpman

I mean if they knew superman's father was a genocidal maniac who looked at our species as pets and his entire race were as bad if not worse. 🤷

Jamaal Ellison

No, Cecil showed that Mark can't trust him. Mark's decisions up to this point are not only for himself either. He literally has the responsibility as being Earth's strongest defense and living in the shadow of what his father did. Mark up to this point had done nothing to warrant having a switch implanted against his will with a contingency switch that left it on PERMANENTLY if said switch was destroyed, which could have been done in a multitude of ways. The comment you replied to is legit describing both point of views and finding fault in both, idk how you can read that and then still find no problem in what Cecil did in literally driving Mark to that extent.

suzukiri

From what I got from all this. Both mark and Cecil got an ego which was their downfall

Unsaidrumble

You’re naive

Djayyy

I wonder if Mark would've been more understanding if Cecil would've told him the story behind his scar. We can be the good guys or save the world, we can't do both. I like to to think he wouldve understood.

Cozyman Nas

Did you not watch the same thing I did? He literally says to mark to calm down multiple times and they can talk this out. Mark just gets madder and madder and continues to escalate. Mark is so much faster and stronger than Cecil that seeing him yelling and screaming is understandably scary for him. You’re naive

Djayyy

Great points

Abdul-Rahman Lawal

Roshi saying Mark could've knocked his head off before Cecil could react like Cecil didn't do a smooth lean back while hitting the trigger while Mark was charging lol

Cozyman Nas

Mark has the power of god, he unfortunately does not get that benefit. And next ep shows exactly why being young and emotional with these powers is all the more scary

Djayyy

“Cecil kept escalating” mark started this by storming into the pentagon like he owned the place. imagine someone breaks into your house but you get blamed cuz you’re the one who “escalated”

Kryptik _

Lmfaoo. yea I get your point, both sides are valid but at the end of the day I can’t blame him. Personally

Mori_

Ultimately, I’m on Mark’s side BUT this powerful mf was moving a lil too crazy when he was at the pentagon. Cecil wanted to talk things out, but as soon as he heard Mark raise his voice just a lil bit, ole dude headed straight to that panic room🤣🤣💀

Delinda Arts

Mark is not a child he was in college he's a grown ass man mark followed cecil in the room also no one told him to follow cecil in the white room

panda_senpai

I see you Sheera about to break into "Kiss de Girl" from Little Mermaid at the end.

Hollow

yes lets anger and betray superman before the 5 superman powered evil ass aliens come down to take us over!

DatKid_Kaneki

The constant color scheme shifting with the intro is actually foreshadowing a future event. Pay close attention to them, as they each represent something. Based on how fast they're adapting the arcs, it should kick off in the 7th episode.

Jeremiah Neely

mori. he has no chip anymore and is rouge! so it didnt matter like im saying it was fucking dumb this whole shit was dumb as fuck and he set himself up for any failure to come

DatKid_Kaneki

Holy shit that's alot of yapping in the comments

Danger Tomato

Being scared isn't a justification. Cecil being right about the contingencies doesn't mean he's correct about how he played the situation. He dismisses Mark's valid anger, and tells him to go home with no actual discussion. Implies Mark's kill is remotely similar to the two serial killers he was employing, escalating the anger further. He then subtly leads him into the white room and surrounds him with more reanimen. This is easily his worst decision because it escalates the situation in the 3 different ways. It's an implicit threat, it's pretending that Mark is acting crazy when he's really just angry and yelling, and it's surrounding him with the very thing he's so mad about in the first place. You can defend Cecil's contingencies while also recognizing that he played this situation fucking horribly and acted entirely out of ego and fear, not out of pragmatism. None of Cecil's actions THIS episode are justified. No one cares that the contingencies are in place. That's not what people are criticizing him for, stop pretending that's what the argument is. You're attacking a strawman because the real argument isn't winnable for you.

Chimpman

I mean just because people aren’t lying today don’t mean they are lying later or can change later

Mali Howard

Yo Kate need to shut the hell up lmao. Ray was turned into chewing gum while you was chillin in the mountains. I know she been through shit too but like Ray said, she can’t multiply and makes saves. It just me out here. EARLY! 😂

Delinda Arts

While I understand Mark's POV on this one, I'm going to side with Cecil on this. 1. TRUST: Both Sheera and Lupa were saying how Cecil should have trusted Mark and not treat him as if he was the worse case scenario villain that Cecil is preparing for. While that is true, trust works both ways. At the end of the first episode, Cecil told Mark that both Darkwing and Sinclair have gone under severe psychological rehabilitation and won't kill again, to which Mark responded "That's bullshit" when he has no actual proof whether or not the rehabilitation has worked or not. Even if his experience says otherwise, you can't call out bullshit if the people in question saved your life. Mark is also assuming that the both of them are free as a bird when they could be under 24/7 surveillance. 2. ANGSTROM: People disagree when Cecil puts Mark on the same level as Angstrom Levi. The only reason that I can think of on why Cecil can bring this up (even though I don't agree) is because even though it was self-defense you can still get sent to jail for murder. Depending on the state, if your assailant is subdued you have "the duty to retreat" from the situation. If everywhere was a stand-your-ground state then Cecil's argument falls short. 3. AGE: Why Mark's age is a nonfactor (TO SOME DEGREE) Just a reminder that this is considered a JOB, and it doesn't matter how old you are. You're expected to act cordial to some degree. If you go to your manager's office yelling at the top of your lungs and proceed to slam on his desk, it doesn't matter how good of a worker you had been up until then, you getting fired becomes a possibility. Someone calling the police or security becomes a possibility. (Yes, Cecil should have done a better job at de-escalating the situation but it also falls on Mark to calm down.

Dastard

Cecil is wrong for protecting himself and trying to stop him from telling everyone of contingencies for the betterment of the planet okay 😭 it’s like you walking into a government facility and seeing something you wasn’t supposed to and trying to leave and tell the world😭 like what and then Cecil says people have ideas of what goes on with the government😭 he says in the first season that people have conspiracy theories about what goes on. Like people know, he want gaslighting him

Mali Howard

Roshi is valid with his points but I think he was in the same mindset as Cecil which was completely disregarding Mark showing his loyalty to Earth by fighting his dad to near death and training to fight a whole army of viltrumites alone. Which Mark was valid to crash out because he trusted Cecil but Cecil didn't trust him.

Grimm

He allowed his fear to turn away his biggest asset

Abdul-Rahman Lawal

Roshi Justice is certified Cecil activity so that’s panning out how I expected tbh 😂

Alec Figueroa

would yall say the same shit if they did it to superman even after all he has done for earth🤔

DatKid_Kaneki

Mark was in some you are going to do this or else type stuff and Cecil was trying to talk to him about keeping everything quiet and Mark crashed out on some little kid type stuff. So he was trying to keep him there so he could stop him from telling everyone about what he had as contingencies

Mali Howard

Damn Roshi couldn’t say one point while Lupa said the same point 3 times lol.

These Plums

The world trusted Omni man and look how that worked out

Mori_

They were jumping him😂😂😂

Abdul-Rahman Lawal

Your first and second paragraphs are fine, I don't take issue with those but I'm gonna nitpick your others because you're downplaying to an insane degree. Cecil had many choices he could have made, bud. This is just a lie you're making up because I guess if someone is correct originally, they can't be wrong in other decisions. Mark was furious and demanding they be put in prison, sure. However, Cecil was TELLING him to calm down and go home. This isn't a fix or a discussion, this is him needing to feel like he's in charge. He is dismissing Mark's entirely valid feelings about him employing serial killers. If he had said, "Hey, I know this is really messed up, let's talk it out and calm down first", chances are Mark would have relented. Mark freaked out because Cecil lead him into the white room and then surrounded him with more reanimen (which is an implied threat, pretending it's not is being dishonest) which is the very thing Mark is angry about in the first place. You're telling Mark should be MORE calm after this? Get the fuck out, bro. No one here thinks the contingencies are a bad idea. Obviously this is a necessary evil that he should have in place. You can easily defend that idea while also recognizing that Cecil made absolutely way more bad decisions in this confrontation than Mark. All his decisions are from a place of ego, not pragmatism. He needed to feel like he was still in charge because he can't come to terms with the fact that he isn't.

Chimpman

Cecil not "knowing" where Mark's head is at is straight up bullshit. There is arguably no other character in the entire fucking show that understands Mark's morality more than Cecil. This man Cecil watched Mark kill someone who was fully deserving of it, someone who literally held his mom and baby brother hostage, and literally had to tell Mark that killing Angstrom does not make him a bad guy. Cecil was communicating with Mark throughout the entire little depression arc he went through after killing Angstrom and again had to remind him that he's not like his father. So tell me why Cecil would feel threatened when Mark pulled up to the Pentagon? Ain't no way in hell Cecil genuinely thought Mark was going to kill him over a disagreement. Cecil turned an argument into Mark genuinely fearing for his life. Straight up insane

Phroug

Not really they just made hypothetical points of information that we know and the characters don’t.

Mali Howard

Well now he doesn't have a chip and is not under control, so now what? Putting a torture device in him didn't seem to be a great long-term solution.

George

So if there’s a Superman who literally roams the earth you wouldn’t want to have some sort of device or contingency that can stop him? You’d rather just let him roam knowing that he can destroy the whole planet at any given moment? Crazy

Mori_

when the first party reacts with emotion (Mark) and the other party (Cecil) escalates, then party 2 fucked the whole situation. especially adult vs child. i always take the younger person side cause those emotions go craaaazy

Cori Curry

That is true; however in my opinion, I think that changed once Mark said "Well... People change." I am only speaking in this particular segment, so I understand there is everything else that came before it. If I were to hear that from anyone in a negative situation where someone got killed in front of my eyes, I'd probably think this person (no matter how trustworthy they were before that) has a darker intention from this point onward.

Ryan The Biggest Dick Zandes

If Cecil can't trust someone fully, then he shouldn't be surprised when someone doesn't trust him back. Trust is a two-way street. Cecil is trying to have his cake and eat it too, and he's going to learn that that's not possible. You can't cozy up to someone and say stuff like, "You're not your dad," go behind their back and install a torture device in their head and then expect them to just go, "Oh yeah. I get it. Makes sense. Completely trust you boss man." Cecil wants everyone to trust and listen to him, but he will NEVER give anyone else that same grace.

George

You’re gonna place your life on a bet like that? If mark doesn’t have a chip and goes rogue for whatever reason then you’d be doomed. If he has a chip and goes rogue you have a chance.

Mori_

appreciate it. thought roshi would be team invincible, kinda surprised

Equilyzr

That too so they both were doing some fuck shit so im more on cecil side in this scenario not with the shit he was doing last season

Casual

I mean mark wasn’t listening before that he wasn’t even letting Cecil talk and if mark was that threatened by the reanimen he would have immediately stood down now go on to dismantle them all and then egotistically say “is that all you got?”

Mali Howard

Im with roshi on this one. There is a reason why 'with great power comes great responsibility' is a superhero phrase that is always relevant. The power difference between mark and basically everyone on earth does mean that mark needs to be way more chill. We all do stupid stuff but being able to literally vaporize somebody with an angry punch means you gotta be careful with how you act and while I don't think mark would have killed Cecil, I do think it's far more on Mark to calm down when the power difference is that large, ESPECIALLY when Mark out here trying to play the "I'm the good guy card". Bro really trying to have his cake and eat it too

Gabe

Also him taking him out to help the guardings is his time he is paying for his mistakes by working for cecil not wasting his potential in a jail cell

Casual

Roshi is team cecil, Sheera is team Invincible, and Lupa is agreeing with bits of both sides

BiggyCheddz

Fought?💀. Didn't bro leave to mars and come back to earth with another spawn of Nolan? Let Cecil cook

Alex zander

Well said

Abdul-Rahman Lawal

So what was Cecil supposed to do? Saying that was essentially threatening is like when a person walks in with a sawed off shotgun and I take my little pistol out and saying he was the one being threatening

Mali Howard

shit literally was a dumbass idea he literally had no other plan other than using the device and the reanimen like lmaoo????? when u decide to do smth like that, thats when u alr betrayed the person🤦🏽 relationships be based off trust yall got shi backwards

DatKid_Kaneki

That is also true doe but aye man I’m not bout to put my love ones in danger knowing what the government can do fuck that he’s out here teleporting every where nd shit fuck around he’ll b in your closet bro gotta go he kno too much lol

Michael Kaiser

True but im still not trusting a guy 100 percent if he can kill me with no effort

Casual

I'm on mark side 100% Cecil knows how mark feels about darkwin and Sinclair but instead of talking to him he dissmissed his feelings and got so paranoid that he took him to the white room which didn't make things better obviously. Cecil should've talked to mark about it first knowing just how emotional he is if he's so scared of him then maybe this wouldn't have happened. Now cecil implanting a chip in his brain to control him is wrong on all levels, it was a breach of trust and he was torturing him through that whole fight, him wanting to take mark back to the GDA as if he didn't just poke a massive bear is crazy, what made him think mark would go with him even if he's incapacitated and then the reanimen beating on him didn't make it better, I get the whole needing as many people as possible thing wheter they're villians or not but in my personal opinon, I'd be mad as shit too, these people killed innocents bc of their sick minds and I don't believe whatever cecil did to them is enough. It's also the fact that cecil felt the same way about it when he was younger but instead of communication, he chose violence against mark as if they were the same person at a certain point. Cecil only wants control over him like a dog with a shock collar, he wanted him to comply to his wishes, they were both not listening to each other but Mark is a child who is going to be emotional regardless especially since it's only been 2 years since he got hsi powers and his life ever since has been fucked, his dad beat the living shit out of him and not only that, that train scene had to have fucked him up, we see mark literally regret all of his decisions, even killing angstrom he regretted but cecil literally doesn't fucking care bc he threw it in his face as if mark killed him for no reason. I'm sure if they talked about it, they would've came to some sort of agreement but Cecil was out of fucking line and let paranoia get to him. edit: Also, mark being "threatning" isn't him being threatning, it' s him being himself. He go this powers at 17 which isn't usual for viltrumites so him being a human boy for most of his life is what he's used to so him yelling at cecil is like him yelling at his dad if he was 16, he probably doesn't even remember in the heat of the moment that he has powers, it has only been 2 years but when that reanimen grabbed him and he realized like " wait, i can fuck these things up" he did so bc wtf is cecil gonna do against him, like realistically now that he has not leverage. edit2: ANOTHER THING! Imagine dakrwing killed someone you loved and then on a random day saves you out of the blue, the first thing you'd think would be that he's coming to kill you but no, you're alive and fine but this man still took someone important from you and he's getting a pass? Thats how thousands of people would feel if cecil keeps putting murderers and serial killers in the GDA/Guardians of the globe. Rick is an example and I bet if angstrom was alive and well, Cecil would've recruited him too. I also just had a thought that put it together for me that Cecil never trusted mark to help people, when he was fighting that sea creature, he didn't wanna help the people down there, mark did and instead of sending reinforcemnets he decide to make the fucking chip toput in hsi head. All season 2 mark was doing what he wanted to do which pissed cecil off that he couldn't control him, another reason as to why cecil is a piece of shit fr.

AniyaNii

so instead of trying to reason with the extremely nice human viltrumite, u put a device in his head which u dont even know would actually kill him or anything. u use it then what? everything is all well? what is ur plan? lmao

DatKid_Kaneki

How do you know that?

Mali Howard

"I had just as close a call as you did" this bitch is braindead she literally can't die if she just hides a "0" somewhere else Kate is dumb af

Bacardi Giovanetty

One thing you guys have to understand is that Cecil unnecessarily escalated Mark because mark never said anything about threatening Cecil but he Brought out the robots and it was extremely unnecessary, but even when he brought out the minions, the minions ended up grabbing Mark, and then Cecil proceeded to threaten him and mark killed the things that were threatening him, and never Tried to attack Cecil. then when Mark tried to leave, Cecil proceeded to follow him all the way up into the guardians of globe headquarters in which he told invincible he had no choice but come with him. All Cecil had to do was stay at the pentagon when mark left. Cause even when Cecil used that thing in his head, mark didn’t once try to hurt him. Cecil escalated the situation and never had to threatened him.

RedXNinja

I mean what’s to say he isn’t gonna change? The episode is literally about people changing for better or worse. And it’s no predicting it. His dad was there for 20 years and then just started killing everyone? Blind trust for the man who is supposed to keep earth safe is not good

Mali Howard

THISSSS I agree with Cecil and the old director's stance on villain use, but the way Cecil conducted himself here was just dumb. Bro is trying to fly away like you said earlier, but now you wanna forecefully shock collar him into obedience?? All decorum out the window

DIO not Dio

i dont have time right now to watch this but can someone summarize who of the three is team mark or team cecil?

Equilyzr

I think you are forgetting that in that same scene, Omni-Man was increasing his speed faster than the teleporter was at taking Cecil out. The last one Omni-Man did to Cecil only took Cecil's tie off. That would mean the next one would've been Cecil's death.

Ryan The Biggest Dick Zandes

Nah I agree with sheera and Lupa 100%

ClvtchGod

Fr like he needs to chill. And he needs to learn that there are other ways of defeating an enemy. And just putting them in jail isn’t beneficial to anybody. Plus that’s what jail is for. To rehabilitate

Mali Howard

Mark has never mentioned that he wanted to rehabilitate his father. He was hostile with his father the entire time that he was with him up until other Viltrumites started attacking.

George

That literally shows why he needs the device. If you are afraid of testing his patience, then he needs to have some sort of leash

Mori_

Mori, no it isn't. "Defending the world" doesn't make everything justifiable. This is like Hydra in Winter Soldier lmao. This logic isn't infallible.

Chimpman

I mean Batman also is in a universe where there are other superpowers hero’s and he himself is not a regular human 😭 Cecil is just some regular guy and standing infront of Superman without the moral compass while he angrily approaches you and just destroyed robots

Mali Howard

I personally feel like what made Mark more mad, was seeing the reanimated men, because they hurt his friends and clearly that along with his family is who he would kill for. Cecil to then bring them out when this is happening only made it worse. Not to mention Cecil completely ignoring and dismissing what Mark is saying. There is nothing wrong with rehabilitating but Cecil won't even give specifics on how these people are being rehabilitatated. How is he making sure these people are actually changing and aren't faking? I definitely agree with him having backup plans but I don't agree with him not seeing how Mark is rightful in how he feels regarding his friends and family. What's the point of having Mark train super hard and trying to have him put all of these criminals away if when they have a useful power thay could just be "rehabilitatated" and released with barely any punishment.

Moriah Stephens

Umm anyone would still be scared of someone who can literally decapitate you in a blink of an eye.

Mori_

That’s a valid point but I was moreso thinking about it from Mark’s perspective. Like he has every right to be mad fr.

Culdesac Jadoni

That’s what’s I’m saying like especially next episode. Bro should be in prison or something or needs to die, but I bet he doesn’t because mark is a hypocrite

Mali Howard

Didn't everyone on earth trust Omni man till.... The kill switch is so reasonable. Stopped Nolans takeover with his face lmao. "Holds the cards" Brodie what cards? Mark could have literally killed Cecil then and there , as you saw with the choke hold. Forcing an unwilling species under your rule Vs maintaining autonomy. Crazy comparison lmao. Dracula was valid, so was Eren and Cecil

Alex zander

Do you think pointing a gun to someone’s head and telling them to calm down will work? Lmao

Yeh2001

It is when you are literally defending the world. Cecils decisions are not only for him but for everyone. Mark showed that he cant be trusted without some sort of device to stop him.

Mori_

Great point!

Abdul-Rahman Lawal

That is true cant lie but cecil was purposely keeping his distance from him just for him to have a better chance not to die so idk it just depends on circumstances and in that scene mark could’ve kill him in a second

Casual

To your second point, being afraid of someone doesn't mean to need to respond by only whimpering in fear. Especially if you're in a position of power. Cecil is the director of the defense agency for the entire world, he's not going to start pampering Mark with nice words just because he's afraid of him. Mark is an adult and he is working with the government to protect the world. If he can't have a proper conversation and go through the same process that every other superhero does, then that's on him. Just like how Mark was conflicted, Cecil is angry as well at the end when he's monologuing to Mark. They were both surrounded in blood, guts, and bodies. His hand is fried and the Guardians no longer trust him. If he doesn't have the courage to tell Mark not to threaten him ever again, then I don't think he should be the one spearheading the defense for the world against alien threats. As for the passive aggressive remarks, sure, that's a flaw in the way Cecil approached things. But similar to what Roshi was saying, I don't see how it's fair to only point out these microaggressions by Cecil while ignoring all of Mark's flaws for this situation (Which imo are more prominent). While Cecil was giving passive aggressive remarks Mark was giving VERY REAL aggressive responses which weren't passive at all. It's easy to point out Cecil's faults but you can't just ignore Mark's glaring ones. Cecil has always been nosey and paranoid but he's helped him out with everything he could throughout the series. If Mark just went in calmly and asked Cecil about Sinclair and Darkwing, then who knows what might have happened. Maybe Mark would remind Cecil how he used to be and Cecil would have changed his mind. Obviously there are points for both sides and I'm aware that I only really pointed out things on Cecil's POV, but that's just because it's 1am here and I need to sleep lol. Good discussion though.

King of New York

I mean if that person is capable of destroying a planet than I think that consent is out the door. What’s happens when he has you in his hands and nobody can stop Him cause he would never turn bad? Never

Mali Howard

I get what your saying but keep in mind omni-man nd Cecil had they’re lil “battle” nd he did not die by a blink of an eye pretty sure cecil can teleport when ever he wants so him being a “regular” human shouldn’t matter

Michael Kaiser

“i do not blame cecil” dawg yall woulda got us killed🤦🏽 all it really takes is for mark to be a real evil ass nigga and destroy everything. keep testing the patience of those stronger than u and find out

DatKid_Kaneki

But mark literally took himself to his breaking point by getting enraged over something so simple as someone being locked up. It’s like people can’t change for the the better with him or if that person personally does something to him he feels they are no longer redeemable. And why would Cecil trust someone fully when he has to keep things secret so that nothing leaks and blows his countermeasure. Plus omniman was never good to begin with. They both didn’t trust each other because Cecil already knew it was strange from the beginning, why would he trust him. And Debbie is just a I’m holier than thou type of person like she’s to nice/good for her own good

Mali Howard

I was tryna jump through the screen for you Roshi 😂😂

Boogie

it was 2 v 1 lmao.

Freeofgreed

I'm very curious what the age breakdown is for people on Mark's side vs Cecil's. lol. Cause i'm Roshi's age and I'm 100% on Cecil's side.

Freeofgreed

I definitely can see both sides of this but an all honesty mark a better man then me cuz as soon as my ass heard "frequency blocked" Cecil would have been up next. also that mf Cecil be talking like he got superpowers or something lmao and W end discussion.

Riley Coadic

W end discussion

kingBD

Good point but I assume they already made tweaks to make it more efficient and updated the technology overall since it’s already been like 2 years since the omniman event.

Yummy_sauce

Here lupa and sheera im just going to say do you 100 percent a guy who could kill you in a blink of an eye

Casual

Yeah I seen that too I was like I wonder how he was gonna feel about the later part of the episode😭 but for the most part he stayed in line with ideology that you have to have a code about killing villains and I’m sure Cecil would feel that same. Like if you can’t reform them then eliminate them

Mali Howard

Fear doesn't justify every action. Fear can cause an individual to commit evil just like every other instinct or emotion. Often times evil that is committed to one person is righteous in the eyes of the assailant. The truth of the matter is that both Cecil and Mark were acting out of fear. Mark is a nearly unstoppable force, while Cecil has seemingly limitless resources and Mark's family under constant surveillance. Even if Cecil's actions were justified in his eyes or in the eyes of the viewer, it does not mean that his actions were righteous. The same goes for Mark.

SuperSickMedia

If something like this is enough to turn Mark bad than he was never going to help the earth. Plsu y'alls ay this like Cecil intentional set Mark off, and not acted in self defense...

Freeofgreed

Young Cecil's crashout and Mark being angry are not a 1:1 comparison at all. Cecil shot those two reformed villains on sight whereas Mark didn't even try to hurt Darkwing and instead went to confront Cecil after finding out Cecil had been working with former villains. I also don't think Cecil being scared is a valid excuse for bringing out the flesh robots in the white room for Mark to see because we know Cecil can teleport faster than Mark can attack (we saw him dodge Omni man's attacks multiple times). They're both definitely in the wrong, Cecil for implanting the device in Mark's head and not trusting Mark, and Mark for not hearing Cecil out initially and threatening him after destroying the first batch of robots.

Sughandi

Cecil the one dropping his D on the table with the constant sound control 💀💀 the point where Mark is actively trying to fly away and Cecil won't stop following + pushing the damn thing is where bro is basically using a dog shock collar to establish his place as master

DIO not Dio

I've no clue what you're talking about. 🤐

Jamaal Ellison

Cecil isn't there to be Mark's friend. He needs to defend the planet.

Freeofgreed

57:55 Also Cecil already said he doesn't believe he is like his dad so why are you scared. You're showing stuff that my man is complaining about avegrating him further.

Abdul-Rahman Lawal

1. Did you watch EP 3? Because Mark ain't different in this regard... 2. Did you ignore how he asked Mark to several times to talk????? 4. Mark can kill Cecil in a flash. Y'all keep saying "bbbut Mark didn't even try to attack him" If it got to that point it would've been too late. Cecil can't wait until Mark tries to attack him, so he has to premptivly defend himself if it even gets to that point.

Freeofgreed

But he did help him did he not in the end? And even still that’s information that only we know. If mark didn’t trust Cecil or anyone enough to be like “hey I met my dad in space and helped him do this against my better judgment.” Cecil probably found out on his own. And that leads to distrust because why are u meeting them man who killed thousands for no reason?

Mali Howard

So why didn’t omniman do that in season 1? He can fly around the world in seconds. Pretty sure mark doesn’t even know how the teleportation works.

Yummy_sauce

Batman and the League are colleagues, they've know each other for years and trust each other. Cecil and Mark aren't colleagues Mark works for him doesn't really know him or trusts him. Also there's plenty of kryptonite laying around and everyone knows superman's biggest weakness. Mark doesn't have very many you could exploit if necessary if any. Pitbulls are cute but you always keep one eye on them just in case.

Jamaal Ellison

I can’t really say much cause it might lead to spoilers but earlier episodes an has had 3 anger outbursts

KingDom

Cecil wasn’t even trying to have a conversation, he was just throwing low blows at mark to try to prove a point which is the opposite of deescalating a situation. Example, Mentioning angstrom, calling mark a hypocrite, and immediately using his counter weapons against mark which was just a dumb move overall.

Yummy_sauce

So what? if your team doesn't fucking trust you, then what shot does you have? it's plain and simple that Cecil needs them and the entire point of that argument was trust

ShaquanVirse

How was Cecil escalating it by going to a place to protect himself? And trying to have a conversation? All mark was doing was yelling and walking aggressively towards Cecil, which prompted the reanimen to hold him back and what did mark do? He instantly attacked them and just started destroying them.. and then said “is that all you got?” Which is a threat and caused more to appear.

Mali Howard

So he still has unresolved issues. Which makes him a threat to everyone

Mori_

weak ahh guardians couldn’t even dent or maim the reanimated mfs and mark just blew them to pieces they were all like gah damn he on a diff level makes sense why robot was like yeah i’m with him

Fred

Team mark

Andy Samples

Cecil wasn't wrong but the way he went about it was wrong

bleach

He came cecil already mad im give myself a chance to survive

Casual

I understood Cecil's decision but he was extremely passive aggressive about it, kinda like when a mom is tryna feed you medicine as a child and you say no and she says okay but still feeds it to you anyway. Also reminds me a lot of Franklin's decisions in Snowfall where he would have important info and not communicate it to anyone and expects no one to press him for it and then eventually relationships sour, ppl get hurt/killed and theres a divide kinda like what happened in this episode. Like, Cecil barely gave Mark the time of day and went straight for the white room and then said "okay I feel threatened" when Mark just wanted answers. Mark was flying towards a reanimen when he pulled the trigger, he def didnt need to resort to that, and one last thing I'm sorry but how fucking dumb are you to be passive aggressive of someone's situation especially when you went thru the same thing and can fucking RELATE. that in itself should've been enough to deescalate the situation.

Sonny

@Alex Zander awww is little baby snowflake going to cry over words over a TV show?

Grimm

You do know Cecil is the last line of defense for earth from a group of supermans, but no cryptonite

Alex zander

Better that then hoping he wouldn’t do anything and dying if you were wrong about him

Mori_

I'm team Cecil all the way. Like obviously theirs two viewpoints, but I just don't see how people can't see Cecil's side is the most "logical" one. Sure blah blah it was messed up and they both have their ups and down, but at the end of the day he's more in the right. Lets break it down, clearly reforming the bad guys and using them is a GREAT idea. Mark is completely in the wrong about that issue ( sure its messed up). Knowing Cecil, he obviously has a contingency for them. Sheera saying she wouldn't have "introduced it like that" is odd. Mark literally left Cecil no choice lol. He came in screaming, holding his fist, mad as hell, while Cecil was just trying to talk. THEN he took him to the white room, and was still willing to talk. Then mark goes all like, "PEOPLE CHANGE". Like hello? That also includes Mark himself, if I was Cecil I would have reacted the same way. Sheera keeps mentioning his age, like that aint a double edge sword. Same reason she's using his age as a defense of he still young of course he gonna act that way blah blah. Is literally the same reason why Cecil would have a contingency plan against him, and use it the way he literally just did. BECAUSE he is an unpredictable teen. Their is literally no De-escalation in a situation like that lol. I don't know what Sheera and Lupa are taking about. Given those exact circumstances, Cecil did the best he could've done in that situation. Cecil literally did what Lupa said he should've done, "hey kid stop, I don't want to hurt you" etc. Yes, lets wait till he acts like his dad for us to take measures? Cecil telling mark he felt scared, should of told Mark to calm down. Instead it didn't do anything, and made him walk towards him even more. That itself proves Cecils point further lol. Planting that thing in Marks ear was a breach of trust and fucked up. BUT the episode itself literally shows why it should've been done. How many evil mark variants are there again? The more I think about it, the more I think Cecil is right. Overall, good episode and good discussion. Didn't expect to type this much, but shit was a good distraction.

EmoBurrito

And also if mark was like going bad or going to do something bad😭 he teleports away from the place that teleports him places and mark just destroys that place😐 and then Cecil is just stranded? That’s stupid

Mali Howard

Nah don't let these 2 gaslight you Roshi. Cecil is 100% in the right. Cecil was calm initially and then went to the white room once he started getting scared. Mark can kill Cecil in a second, he's completely valid in trying to take precautions. Not to mention we've already seen in the other timelines how easily it is for Mark to turn evil. And Mark is a hypocrite, He wants his Dad to be rehabilitated but doesn't want to give the same grace to others, even though his Dad is far worse than Darkwing and Sinclair.

Freeofgreed

Yeah I think everyone would be on Cecil side if he didn't do the implant thing and showed Mark that they only use Sinclair for his mind and he doesn't get any benefits for working. I think if Cecil showed mark that and talked about it Mark would understand that Sinclair is basically a slave. I'm pretty sure Cecil can also get other scientist to recreate Sinclair technology.

Grimm

But that wasn’t his goal. His goal was to talk to mark and deescalate the situation. What would teleporting away do? Make him more mad and do something rash. Cecil was trying to have a conversation, mark was not.

Mali Howard

i dont think he has anger issues. he only started reacting this way after everything that happened to him

Cori Curry

The themes of morality and ethics are very much so ingrained in the entirety of the Invincible story. This episode was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what’s to come in future seasons. This episode was fantastic imo. I’m completely on Cecil’s side. At the end of the day, Mark is an immature teenager with the power to kill you with a mere flick of his wrist and Cecil was obviously scared like he said. He gave Mark plenty of chances to calm down and only reacted when Mark wouldn’t back down. Could Cecil have handled it slightly better? Yes I agree with that but against a literal god who can kill you in a second, you have to think ten steps ahead of them and be ready for anything. Another thing to note is that Mark actually caught Cecil off guard when he grabbed his neck at the end. Cecil genuinely didn’t think Mark would try to kill him. This is a very interesting and in-depth topic to explore but I will say to remember this for later on this season. I’m also dead at the fact that Lupa called Roshi by his government mid-convo 😂 all around great discussion yall

Nick Vaughn

How is Cecil supposed to guarantee that Mark will always be on his side? We know he won’t but Cecil doesn’t. Cecil was still not trying to use the button until, like I said, Mark said “PEOPLE CHANGE”. As soon as Cecil heard that alarm bells went off in his head & he realized Mark couldn’t be talked to & he was gonna have to use force. Cecil could have handled it better, but I’m not a fan of acting like it all depends on Cecil having to constantly be the completely mature one in the situation. Mark needs to handle it WAY better as well, Mark’s not right from a logical standpoint nor is he much better in a “in this situation” moment. Mark isn’t a child, he’s 19. He’s young, sure, but he should be old enough to be able to handle things at least MUCH better than how he did. I don’t blame Mark for being angry, I’d be pissed if someone put something in my head too, but I also don’t blame Cecil. Mark showed up wanting problems & gave Cecil no reason to believe he would use anything OTHER than force, so Cecil responded in that exact same way. I lean more on Cecil’s side because 1. Mark was the aggressor 2. Cecil made the 1st attempt at de-escalation 3. Mark never gave Cecil any indication he was willing to just calm down by talking it out despite Cecil asking him to 4. This Episode portrays Cecil’s logic in dealing with Villains as correct (Flashbacks + Older, Experienced heroes taking Cecil’s side)

YoungSalsa

"Government boot licker " you dumb AF.

Alex zander

As soon as Cecil told Mark that he was scared of him,that should have been an indication to chill out.Mark started walking towards him which is crazy

Kevin

I get where Lupa and Sheera are coming from, and I agree that Mark had every right to be upset. But I think you’re underselling Cecil’s position here. First off, Cecil is always playing the long game. His job isn’t just about trusting heroes—it’s about making sure Earth is prepared for worst-case scenarios. He trusted Omni-Man for years, and look how that turned out. So from Cecil’s perspective, even if Mark seems like a good guy, the risk of another Viltrumite going rogue is too high to ignore. Mark might be credible, but that doesn’t mean he’s not dangerous. Now, about the white room. Cecil wasn’t bringing Mark there to antagonize him—he was showing him the reality of his job. Mark operates with a very black-and-white moral compass, but Cecil has to deal with shades of gray all the time. The way he responded with “should I lock you up too?” wasn’t dismissive just for the sake of it—it was him forcing Mark to acknowledge that sometimes killing is a necessary evil. It wasn’t about equating Mark to Sinclair, but about making him realize that idealism doesn’t always cut it when you’re dealing with planetary threats. And yeah, maybe Cecil could have handled it with more tact, but that’s not his style. His job isn’t to make Mark feel comfortable—it’s to protect Earth. And sometimes that means making uncomfortable decisions, even if it pisses Mark off. At the end of the day, Mark is a good guy, but Cecil can’t afford to only think of him that way.

D

Roshi was right Cecil point makes sense. Mark is 19 year old kid with anger issues so having him with all the power in the world you best believe I’m going to feel threatened. Lupa got it backwards Mark is the gun at the table not Cecil. Other really strong point is mark is a hypocrite but he is young so.

KingDom

conversation so heated lupa said roshi's actual name lol

HeyItzDaredevil

I mean we gotta realize that this is also shown from a different perspective. Cecil is just a regular human he doesn’t know who he’s flying at and what he’s gonna do. Mark is insanely fast. And he brung in more cause mark just kept letting threats fly. And they obviously wouldn’t have attacked if mark just calmed down

Mali Howard

That would be pretty foolish

Mori_

The fact that mark could end him is a reason for the device in the first place🤦‍♂️ him doing it or not doesn’t take away from the fact that he is still a threat to the world. Good or bad, he has to be controlled to a degree

Mori_

47:50 The problem is that you've seen other Viltrumites. If they want to take over, you want your Viltrumite to be on your side and happy.

Abdul-Rahman Lawal

People don't understand that there are two different issues at play here and Mark and Cecil are both right and wrong. 1. rehabilitated bad guy disagreements - Cecil is right, there's no reason to not use resources that can be of help as shown when it saved everyone in the previous episode. 2. The Bomb in Mark's head - Mark is right, there was no actual need to have it installed directly in Mark's head and using it at any point is trust severing. There's other minor points like how Cecil could've explained his position better or how Mark should've realized how scary it would be for the strongest person on the planet to pull up on you making ultimatums angrily is but it's largely a argument of morality/pragmatism. Side note: I find it kinda funny how mark is adapting more of his dads moves and personality, how he took out the robots matches Omni-man's execution moves and he chokes Cecil in the exact same way his father did.

Crow's Nest

You must be fun at parties and sensitive. This place is about discussions about the show. Don't take people's opinions serious. Close your eyes if you don't like what I wrote.

Grimm

with the shit they gotta deal with i fully understand cecil and mark needs to chiil a bit, but cecil leading him to the white room was just so unneeded like if he can beleive that the reform he put the other 2 through works he can stand to put some faith in mark

Guav

I think Cecil's only f up was not actually having a conversation with Mark about Implanting the ringer other than that I agree with Cecil. Mark really just has to understand the weight that he carries being Invincible on a planet where nearly nobody can stand up to you.

Ayojii

i understand what Seera and Lupa are saying but Mark wasn't taking no for an answer tho, the best thing Cecil could have done in that situation if he really didn't care was let Mark go and tell the other Heroes about what he's been up too, the people that have a problem will leave like they did in the episode, and if Mark still won't take no for an answer THEN bust out the reanimated men and that device he put in Marks head

Dark Danny

Nah she bugging

Freeofgreed

No one said anything about him not protecting himself but he knows Mark enough to know that he wouldn't just attack him like that.

Devin B

sheera got so serious she brought out government names😂😂

Casual

But that’s not being a hypocrite that’s growing and understanding. Mark knows his father did what he did, and we KNOW what happens next episode and I bet he’s not gonna recommend that person to be locked up, WHY, because he’s a hypocrite who feels things that he is personally involved with or people he knows is above anything else

Mali Howard

If someone approaches you, and your friend grabs their arm, your friend is in the wrong for putting their hands on the someone who approached you. How angry the person was doesn't matter. Sure, punching your friend in the face after is probably an over reaction, but that someone didn't start it

Mruker

trust is one thing but cecil has been doing this shit for a long time he is not going to put all his trust on a kid who on a whim could destroy the planet. i might be wrong for this, my homie breaks into my house comes up to me yelling at me and i tell him to calm down an he doesn't I'm going to protect myself just incase something goes down not the degree where i pull out the strap but I'm still giving me a chance to defend myself that's what Cecil did

Casual

But the thing is Mark was constantly trying to get closer to Cecil when all Cecil wanted to do was talk. The reanimen stepped in front of Cecil because Mark wouldn't stop moving towards him. Cecil told Mark to stop and he wouldn't listen, he was just constantly attempting to get closer, which is scary and unnecessary if intimidation isn't Mark's goal. He threatened him and said "People change" and lunged towards him. Even though there were reanimen in front of Cecil, Mark just dusted a bunch of reanimen and there's no guarantee he won't go right through the ones in front of Cecil. There was no reason at all for Mark to even lunge at the reanimen. He is the one choosing to use violence. All Cecil wants to do is have a conversation. The reanimen only started attacking Mark after Mark attacked them first. Before that, all they do is stand in front of him and grab his arm, stopping him from progressing towards Cecil. Mark is angry, violent and willing to use force. There's no better time to use a contingency than in that situation where Mark could have blown through the ones in front of Cecil and gone straight for him.

King of New York

The only reason it grabbed Mark's arm was because he was approaching Cecil with all that anger. Mark responded by punching it's face off so obviously that escalates things. Nothing about this situation is black and white even looking at it objectively.

Kami_Psy

It's really odd because one of the first things that Mark tells his father is that he will never forgive him and he shouldn't have even had the gall to ask him for help. He's still tormented by what Nolan did and dreads becoming like him even when he killed Angstrom. Feels like just because Mark didn't try to kill him on the spot because people are just assuming that Mark forgave Nolan when he absolutely didn't and it took the planet being invaded by more Viltrumites for him to even consider fighting by his father's side.

George

Mark wasn’t there to talk about it tho. He was there to stop it and tell the person who deals with the villains and locking them up and rehabilitating them that “NO THEY GOTTA BE JAIL” , but like that’s what jail is for it’s to rehabilitate people like that not keep them there forever

Mali Howard

His fear that fear made him do that

Leon

I’m on Sheera's side with this one, but I understand Roshi's viewpoint. Cecil does have a job to protect the planet, but I just don’t understand how you see this kid who has taken two ass-beatings that 95% of the people on the planet would have submitted to if they were in his shoes hell probably within a few of those punches. Even when Cecil told Mark to lie and say he was going to take over the planet for Viltrum, he wouldn’t even lie to save his own life. I kind of feel like that should be proof that mark ain’t a threat that Cecils making him out to be.

Lance Leo

Also love how someone pointed out in another comment that, although there are definite differences in their methods and Cecil is definitely morally superior to the Viltrumites (at least as far as the show has shown us because once again I have not read the comics), the rationale that he uses is very close to Nolan's in S1: We do the cruel stuff for the "greater good". The Viltrumites are far less altruistic but it's understandable why Mark wouldn't be satisfied hearing that line of reasoning from yet another individual he trusted. Always a great trope because it's so applicable to real life and the way in which we try to balance security with freedom and privacy. Kirkman and the show-runners are cooking.

zkdglo

I mean if you just storm the pentagon as the child of the strongest person on the planet I’m taking you somewhere to calm you down. PLUS Cecil wasn’t minimizing anything he was just tryna calm him down. And at the same time mark kept trying to little bro Cecil. And angrily walking towards Cecil caused the reanimen to stop and grab him. And to fear something he can’t control is HUMAN NATURE. Mark thinks just because he thinks he’s a good guy he is immune to any consequences and can do what he wants. That’s the problem and whether Cecil explained it to him calmly or at any time mark wasn’t gonna rock with putting that in his head because his ego is wayyy to big

Mali Howard

It’s 10000% destroyed without mark being there do you remember last season if he’s not there earth is screwed. Mark is literally the best thing they have going for them against their upcoming battle

Jae

Neither of them are absolutely correct, I just don’t think it would have mattered what Cecil did because their heads are just in 2 completely different places. I doubt Mark would have backed down and I wouldn’t blame him. Like Lupa said 2 big egos fr.

BigO

Would you not get mad if you were trying to have a serious talk to someone and they're walking away? You're getting aggravated at that point. Mark also thought cecil trusted him, but finds hes treating him like his dad after he just said you aren't your dad. It's okay to have contingencies, but Cecil should have known Mark wouldn't turn when he fought his dad knowing he had no chance of winning anf the fact he's putting in the work to getting stronger to protect the planet for a whole alien race. I understand both perspectives but Cecil handled it so poorly.

Ckid_ 276

When I got to the 45 minute part and saw there was still a good chunk left, I knew to get my popcorn. What a great episode that created some great discussion. Me personally, trust is a two way street, if anybody was Mark you'd consider that a tremendous violation of trust. Putting a bomb in my head? After my dad nearly killed me for sticking up for earth? It just shows that Cecil never trusted mark and how he used it showed that he wanted to control him. Cecil could've let Mark fly away, but no.

Greg Harrison

thank you cause mfs were tryna justify what cecil does when HE HIMSELF doesn’t bro considers himself just as bad as any villain and that’s his view.

Fred

Cecil was right until the point he wouldn't stop taking his damn thumb off the remote. Like atp that's just master exercising control, and an incredibly dumb ego trip move to pull (like Sheera said) against one of Earth's ONLY line of defense against the viltrumites.

DIO not Dio

The big difference is in the flashback they showed they never believed him. I'm not knocking the contingencies, but as someone who use to feel the same way. Not sure why'd you dismiss the person who thinks how you use to think.

Dezmond Broadway

Honestly I'd wonder if they'd even still be bad people (well not to the extent they were early in the show) cause those 4 would be quite busted with their knowledge

Sham3ful

Shit, tomorrow gonna be juicy, imma have my popcorn ready

ShaquanVirse

I understand both sides honestly but I'm a little bit with mark like imagine someone being back Jeffrey dahmer and Ted's bundy and you get mad trying to have a argument gets dismissed and threatened which I understand Cecil precautions and contingency plan and if I had no powers I'd go in the white room to but I'd handle it like Lupa said. I think both are in the wrong but Cecil is older and understands the world for what it is and mark is going based off emotions and trauma which is both totally understandable no on really has a right or wrong side just handled it the wrong way and no way in hell wa sit ok for Cecil to put a fucking device in marks head idc at least tell me that before doing it out of no where that would piss me off too

Terrance brown

Bro everyone thinks Cecil is right about having countermeasures the problem is how he showed them and the fact Cecil was purposely saying things to make Mark even more mad Then even when Mark leaves the place he still uses the weapon meant to kill him on Mark and I'm pretty sure that Cecil could eventually see that mark didn't try to attack him once when he was fighting those robot things also Cecil tells Mark not to threaten him even though he threaten Mark first and had his minions attack Mark even when he was already down I would also like to ask If you were in Mark shoes would you ever trust Cecil again after knowing he has something in your brain meant to kill you yes or no

Tay

I'm gonna shit on Cecil defenders with facts because apparently yall can't understand that just because you're being pragmatic, doesn't mean you're right. Things Cecil did wrong that people don't seem to acknowledge: 1. Cecil is employing what are essentially serial killers. That is objectively fucked, and one of them almost killed Mark's friend. His anger is entirely justified. 2. He never attempts to even discuss this. He tells him to go home and calm down but never implies that there could be some sort of compromise. He escalates the situation by constant dismissal of Mark's anger. 3. He implies Mark's killing of Angstrom (who was a direct threat to him and his family, injuring and nearly killing his mom) is remotely similar to Darkwing or Sinclair. This is another escalation of anger because it's just a complete denial of reality. Anyone here would be pissed if you stole a candy bar and someone compared you to a burglar who broke into a home and beat the shit out of a family while robbing them. 4. He then leads him into a room with MORE reanimen (the very thing Mark is angry about in the first place). Then he acts like Mark is being super out of line and nuts, when Mark was NEVER intending to attack Cecil, he was clearly being loud and letting off steam. 5. When Mark takes out the reanimen, he threatens with more and then attempts to tighten his leash on Mark through control. He then uses a weapon on him that is fucking with his head and tortures him. Yeah, stop with the bullshit here, people. To play devil's advocate here and say the things Mark did wrong. 1. He (sort of) broke into the pentagon (he's been allowed there many times before and usually is all the time but I can give people this one.) That's not good because someone of his power shouldn't do that. 2. He demands Cecil do it and that he's not leaving until he does. This is absolutely an overreaction. However, this doesn't mean his anger is unjustified or can't be quelled. Nothing else here is something Mark did that was bad. Mark doesn't threaten him at all until after Cecil starts attacking him. Cecil is correct in his pragmatic choices, obviously. You need to use bad people to protect the planet sometimes and putting contingencies in place for Mark or any viltrumite is the correct move. No one is arguing that these are incorrect decisions. Cecil is wrong because of how he handled the situation, which is objectively worse than Mark. You can easily recognize all of Cecil's logical choices and still recognize that everything he did these last 2 episodes was completely out of line and fucked up. He overplayed his hand because he needed to feel like he was in control still.

Chimpman

Cecil needs to be checked

ShaquanVirse

Bro rage baited himself what do you mean😭

Mali Howard

stop with the dramatics this a superhero show with different circumstances cut it out. it’s a well written plot meant for people to see nuance in both sides that’s the point

Skye Brooklyn

What is he supposed to drag the dad that beat his ass back to earth? His feelings are obviously conflicted, but I'm not sure why you'd shout one liners at an angry kid you're afraid of. He pinpalled between talking him down and passive aggressive remarks to someone he's supposedly afraid of

Dezmond Broadway

Im tellin yalll right now.. the drama this season is gonna be like the beginning of a rollercoaster. Just a steady escalation, but slow compared to what comes after

Godrick

The thing sheera fails to realize is that the WHOLE episode was showing people changing. Like ok mark has been saving people but he can change, he can decide to join his actual race but like you don’t know that. AND mark escalated everything. He was just egotistical and young and was trying to check Cecil.

Mali Howard

Bro I need a cigarette after the discussion 😂 I definitely think that whole interaction could have gone better, but the ego and emotions took over.

Danny C

1.Literally he says let’s talk about it at multiple points. So idk what else to say about this. And generally if someone is angry, having the conversation when each party is calm is the best thing to do. 2. Mark is a murderer yes. He killed that man. Yes I understand his reasons for it. But it happened, and mark did it and walked out of that fight on two feet. This only proves Cecil’s point. In a moment of extreme anger and under duress Mark could kill. You’re right, it doesn’t make him the same as dark wing and Sinclair, but if I have that knowledge, I’d be pretty scared to have Mark angry with me too. Especially considering the time he just spent with his dad. 3. Fair. Lmao I can’t argue this one heavily. There’s not many things that can give mark a challenge but fear aside Cecil could have chosen a better location. 4. Mark is in fact the one not understanding the other side. He spoke nothing of the good they just served in that situation or the consequences that would Have happened if Cecil didn’t employ them. “I’ll tell everyone what you’re doing here. Get them off the team”. Mark wasn’t having a conversation he was making demands. And you can defend Mark without downplaying how natural Cecil’s reaction was, bud.

Kevin

He didn't even lunge at Cecil. He lunged at the reanimen. You see a red eye looking at Mark with his reflection in that eye and Cecil activated the switch behind or to the side of him.

Dezmond Broadway

I think a big mistake was Cecil not hiring the Mauler Twins from the very beginning. Imagine what the two of them, Rudy and Sinclair could have created with proper government funding and a strict leash from the get go.

Jaelyn Mcgee

i think lupa hit it on the head. “the immediate distrust” is what does it for me. Mark would have never layed a finger on Cecil and we have plenty proof based on Marks character thats true. The worst Mark would have done is try to capture Sinclair and Darkwing himself. But Cecil being scared and ultimately attacking Mark is crazy to me especially when Mark said “i’m not even doing anything”. I think we all know Mark wasn’t even thinking about hurting or touching Cecil and the fact Cecil couldn’t trust Mark about that even after all they’ve been through speaks volumes IMO

JAY

That’s crazy to say why would Cecil not protect himself. If a viltrimite I don’t really know that well, but I want to trust you.

Mali Howard

All imma say is I would rather have a 50% chance of saving the earth with Mark on my side than a 100% chance of earth being destroyed with Mark against me🤷🏾‍♂️

Vontay172

Im with Roshi on this one

Kreative

I really don't know how people are on Cecil side. Sorry but if you're on Cecil side then you're basically a government boot licker and think all governments can be trusted. Cecil literally put a device in Marks head when Mark was defending Earth from his Father and countless time showing Cecil his with humanity. He was training to fight an Army of viltrumite alone when he couldn't even defeat his Father and the girl viltrumite. Cecil still couldn't trust him.

Grimm

I’d also like to say great discussion too on the two sides but also being objective on realizing both sides had their faults. It was nice to see balance from all three of y’all. This is why yall are my favorite reaction channel!!!

Jrock

Best episode so far

bleach

Cecil went wrong by not letting mark get what he has to say off his chest. if mark wanted to kill him or harm him he would’ve blitzed him before he even got up from his chair in his office, But mark didn’t do that. Cecil most definitely shouldn’t have a sonic bomb implanted in his head especially when he is his only hope of surviving the viltrums from taking earth.

Jae

Yes mark chose to work for him. If he didnt like how cecil was running things he could have chose to leave. But he wanted to be a hothead and roll up on a paranoid dude like Cecil. Atp Mark was still under Cecil's command and needed to respect the chain of it. He messed around and found out🤷🏾‍♂️

YaBoyTroy

As a fan of Batman I’m team Cecil 😂

Big Daddy Dre

Nah I agree. I’m not saying Cecil was “right”. Cecil fears what he can’t control and the world is on the verge of being destroyed at any given moment by the Viltrumites. That’s valid, but Mark is obviously right to feel the way he does about it. I’m just adding in that little piece of context and saying I doubt it could have gone any other way. My thing is personally, I don’t think Mark is ready to accept Cecil’s way of thinking yet. So if he wanted to he could have and probably would have done something to shut it down himself and that would be a net negative for the Earth’s defenses in the long run. At least if Cecil stands his ground, he still can count on Mark to actually fight back against the viltrumites or any other world ending threat out of his good nature AND have his own stuff going. Obv the way it all went down is messed up but still.

BigO

my man roshi backed into a corner fighting from all sides

Skye Brooklyn

I love Mark and want the best for him, especially after all this nonstop physical and mental torture he's been going through, but if I had to pick a side, it's Cecil 1000%. Mark is a good kid BUT A DIFFERENCE IN VALUES AND OPINION lead him to get so EMOTIONAL that he broke into the Pentagon to intimidate and threaten hos boss. Yes, Cecil tends to be too huge of an asshole but you can see why he HAS TO BE and asshole. People in this world will walk all over your ass for being a decent person and take advantage of you. Cecil ain't having that shit with nobody. He really did TRY to be nice. He warned Mark not to do this shit. He pleaded, told him to take a seat to talk it over, admitted he was scared with what's happening but this SUPER POWERED CHILD is threatening and intimidating him because of a DIFFERENCE IN VALUES AND OPINIONS. Yeah, Cecil was right to do exactly what he did to attempt to put Mark in line. Mark has NO RIGHT to tell Cecil what to do with anybody and then act like he's a good person all the same. That's that " I CAN DO WHATEVER THE FUCK I WANT" super mentality that normal people are scared of. What Mark did was fucking stupid. And then he's gonna go cry to his friends after Cecil showed him what happens when you fuck around threatening him. I know Mark's heart is in the right place but that does not mean using your powers to make someone do what you want because you disagree with the overall scenario where the guy you disagree with is trying to make the planet safe from doom impending shit that happens on a constant basis. He's edging closer to becoming a fucked up Mark variant.

Isaac

Fair point, but you could also say that was more anticipating on the operator of the teleporter. Omni-Man got Cecil's tie after a few tries and they burnt out the teleporter just a little bit later with the kaiju. They haven't covered it but I've interpreted it as the control room teleporting Cecil, which leaves room for human error.

Emko

"He's also a kid" Mark proceeds to start ripping arms off.

Weltall Gaia

When did he murder him? Mark is angry and yelling and Cecil is acting like he's being insane. That's just going to make someone more angry. He then escalates with reanimen, when he could have just sat down with Mark and said "let's chill for a minute and talk." He never did this. He TOLD him to calm down and go home. Nothing he did helped the situation. All he did was contribute to Mark's anger because he needed to feel like he was still in control, because he can't handle that he's not tje powerful one.

Chimpman

TRUST is the word of Invincible season 3 so far - Mark trusted Ceceil, Cecil said fuck everyone and trusts nobody. This why Cecil can't work with them and is wrong. Trust is Mark's problem with Cecil. Mark's entire thing was trust. Mark when he was getting madder, it was because Cecil refused to tell everyone the truth. Mark literally said, "Tell them the truth or I will!!!" Cecil ignored that shit and started threatening Mark more and more. Trust is the reason Cecil is in the wrong, it's fine Cecil has all the countermeasures, but he used them immediately like bro you that quick to turn on me nigga?

ShaquanVirse

Damn, you were all cooking at the end

Hybrid10prime

Nope roshi 55:23 he teleported against Omni man and he was going for the kill

Flunk master

Sheera was speaking facts. Yes everything is clearer in hindsight and yes Cecil was understandably scared of Mark, but the way he went about it was not the best. His words and actions did end up escalating the situation. Mark was being rash, angry, and threatening (even though he didn't realize how much so). And while Cecil did try to calm him down, he did it in a dismissive and condescending way, which Mark clearly picked up on leading to him becoming more and more frustrated. I don't entirely fault Cecil for having contingency measures in place. Morally, its iffy regarding the earpiece but when you're dealing with that level of power that sort of becomes inevitable. He made a mistake in playing those cards in that way. All in all i'm not saying Cecil was absolutely wrong. He just could have done things to prevent it from going so far south. The same can be said for Mark and, though I haven't read the comics and am only caught up with the show, I can only hope Mark also realizes the power he holds compared to even other heroes, because like Roshi said they can kinda handle the others but Mark is on a different level. Mark has a lot of maturing to do, particularly as he has his impressionable brother.

zkdglo

Trying to convince Lupa and Sheera of something is like the hardest job in the world lmao

13

Sheera forgot that mark literally said he wouldn’t go home until both of them are locked up. Cecil has been told him to leave and he refuses.

PhaedrusRumple

Cecil agitated Mark more with passive aggressive shit

ShaquanVirse

darkwing was also killing petty criminals like thieves there's a line that shouldn't be crossed if your gonna kill criminals like roshi said those people didn't deserve to die

keandre deas

He works for Cecil because he chooses to. He doesn’t need him 😂. Cecil needs HIM. Cecil was scared to death.

TJ

Since Mark only wanted one answer. So I guess now that I think about it the only way would have been to lie again in the moment and put them back on reserve for the next emergency. Then either brought up when he cooled down or just piss him off again later.

Dezmond Broadway

So when you are in a discussion with someone and they tell you to go home and we will talk tomorrow even tho they know it’s important will you just leave or would you stay and continue the important conversation

Jae

I agree with Lupa & Sheera

ShaquanVirse

He wasn't begging him. He was telling him. Mark was angry because he just found out that Cecil was employing a literal serial killer (who almost murdered a friend of his btw). If he had said, "hey let's relax and discuss this" and sat down with him, Mark probably would have relented. All he does is dismiss the entire time. Everyone in the comments thinking Cecil was in the right here is delusional. They're both wrong and Cecil contributed to this situation just as much as, if not more than, Mark did.

Chimpman

I'm more so pissed off with Mark than I am agreeing with Cecil, because Mark's perception of reality and his position in it is more alarming to me than what I would call some key missteps on behalf of Cecil.

aesopf

I stand with Roshi ✊🏿

Salvador

Then Mark killed the re-animen as a result of all the torture and Cecil tries to gaslight him into thinking everything was his fault. Cecil was wildin lol

Jaden Coleman

I think both sides are right and wrong at the same time. My thing with the discussion at the end is that Roshi really thinks Cecil did nothing wrong, and that's what I see some people get twisted, the whole thing with Cecil is that he's doing the wrong thing (in a humanly, morally and ethically way) BUT is the necessary thing to assure the safeguarding of the world, he literally says it outloud "we can be the good guys or be the ones who save the world". It's also understandable to have a contingency plan after everything that happened with Omniman, but Shera is also right, if you keep being distrustful of one person, don't be surprised when he turns on you whenever that person finds out. Literally what happened with Anakin on Star Wars with the jedis. Cecil is trying to fight a devil of his own creation at that point, but once again, completely understandable. On the other side Mark is really emotional and impulsive and he's really trying to do the things on the way he thinks they should be, but I think part of his dilemma is that he's trying to hold onto his humanity really hard because that's the only thing that makes him different from a ruthless and savage viltrumite. The whole thing with Cecil growing up and seeing how "the world really works" could be also intrepreted as how as you grow up and see how some things in the world work you end up throwing away parts of your humanity, meanwhile someone young can still held that human part of sticking to what they believe is the right thing to do. It's probably more interesting to see if Mark will be able to held that humanity and morality or become just like Cecil as he grows up, like showing that there's actually another way to do things and make them work.

FianMoon

The title screen will all make sense later..

PhaedrusRumple

Regardless of how Cecil felt he behaved calmly, is my point. It's always the loudest people who have the most to say and are usually wrong.

Mr. Glasses

This is so great because Roshi is literally Cecil talking calmly while Sheera and Lupa are yelling like Mark 😭

King of New York

Cecil didn’t have his mind made up to use the device until Mark said “People change” Thats a HUGE red flag to Cecil & alarm bells went off Also, you can’t say Cecil didn’t tell Mark to calm down because that’s what he was trying to do the whole time. Mark get getting more aggressive & kept getting closer Mark was already yelling. Cecil could for sure hear him. They can’t stand and talk at the same time? What’s Mark getting closer for? Mark’s a whole Nuke & yall asking Cecil to be patient? Are we forgetting how fast Mark is? Mark could slice Cecil’s head off before Cecil could even BLINK. Cecil told Mark he was scared, Mark didn’t care. Cecil told Mark to stay still, Mark didn’t care. Cecil could have had a better tone and wording with his words, but it’s not like Mark was giving him any indication that he was gonna use anything EXCEPT force to get what he wanted. In the previous episode Mark said, “I’m not leaving until Sinclair & Darkwing are put in jail” obviously Cecil would think Mark would resort to force to get what he wanted. I agree Cecil is in the wrong in some areas but it’s hard for me to not lean more his way on this one. The story paints Cecil as in the right. All the older, more experienced heroes agree with Cecil. Cecil’s younger self was portrayed as naive, which is the same outlook Mark currently has. It’s basically the show telling us that Mark has a bunch of growing up to do.

YoungSalsa

He's definitely a control freak. The guardian situation was also super well written, although Immortal just came across as an old man bootlicker lol

Jaden Coleman

They literally just showed a flash back of them never trusting him and knowing he was lying from the jump. Cecil handled something with someone he said he trusted with similar measures to someone he trusted. I will say you are right about Mark never complying. So in the end I have no suggestions for him to handle it in a better way. I think Mark would have been heated no matter what.

Dezmond Broadway

nah sheera i cant agree with you why would cecil threaten mark he could kill him in a instant he literally said aye lets talk about this and mark is "NAH YOUR WORKING WITH CRIMINALS THATS BAD IM NOT ALLOWING THIS" like chill let me explain.

Casual

Ceil see impending doom on its way, and he need any and all advantages he could get, imagine if he get the mailers twin to clone the original guardians. And mark need to understand that they can’t afford to “play nice” as for immortal he has bias against mark

Noson

1. He dismissed Mark's entirely valid feelings by telling him to go home and that it was done. At no point did he say they could actually discuss it. (We know there was no discussion, he just decided it and that was it.) 2. He implies to Mark, while he's really angry, that his killing of Angstrom is REMOTELY similar to Sinclair or Darkwing, which is insane. 3. He leads him into a room and surrounds Mark threatening him with more reanimen (the exact thing that Mark is angry about in the first place.) 4. Let's not pretend that these are just "villains." He's employing what are essentially serial killers because they're useful, one of whom almost killed a friend of his. You can argue that it's pragmatic, which is true, but to pretend Mark is being unreasonable is dumb and not remotely trying to understand the other side. You can be on Cecil's sode without downplaying how fucked he's being, bud.

Chimpman

Mark was being the aggressor by shouting and refusing to leave until Cecil complied with his demands and had his fists balled up. If someone you know was doing that same shit I guarantee you'd think they might become violent any second depending on how things go. That's what Mark was doing but he's also the strongest mf on the planet and very temperamental, so Cecil had every right to be scared and want some reassurance of his safety (white room + reanimen) However Cecil is also in the wrong for implanting and using that noise weapon on Mark. Is it logical? Sure. Is it grimey af to do to someone you claim to trust and have faith in? Absolutely. It's fine to be worried and want contingencies but to put a weapon in someone's body like that would sever any kind of trust forever.

Dannyboy

I think Cecil was right till a point. But you can't really be hesitant against a guy that couldve mopped the floor with majority of the pentagon. These are not 2 regular dudes. As weak as Mark is he is still a potential planetary threat. Mark wouldn't have killed him of course but somebody low diffing your security is terrifying in itself. With all that being said Cecil is a whole new type of dumb for throwing in those low blows

King97

Mark is more in the wrong

MTV

No, he was ACTING calm. He was freaking out and making poor decisions. Every action he took escalated the situation. 1. He dismissed Mark's entirely valid feelings by telling him to go home and that it was done. At no point did he say they could actually discuss it. (We know there was no discussion, he just decided it and that was it.) 2. He implies to Mark, while he's really angry, that his killing of Angstrom is REMOTELY similar to Sinclair or Darkwing, which is insane. 3. He leads him into a room and surrounds Mark, threatening him with more reanimen (the exact thing that Mark is angry about in the first place.) 4. Let's not pretend that these are just "villains." He's employing what are essentially serial killers because they're useful, one of whom almost killed a friend of his. You can argue that it's pragmatic, which is true, but to pretend Mark is being unreasonable is dumb and not remotely trying to understand the other side.

Chimpman

Cecil was right to have the contingencies but he introduced it at a wrong time and it eventually turned into Mark not trusting him anymore. Cecil escalated it and while we can understand why he was scared of Mark it also makes Mark scared of Cecil by seeing someone that he thought believed and trusted him turned on him so quickly. Cecil is in the wrong more than Mark.

Jrock

Exactly!!!

oba ogun

The comics were so unhinged

Jaden Coleman

The foreshadowing in episode 4 is what got me the most excited tbh. Ts is about to get crazy

Jaden Coleman

Thank you

Ayojii

Great end convo!

Dalton Hawes

You literally said I was picking a fight, hence why he said you were playing the victim.

Jaden Coleman

Yeah that junk was trash

R Blass

This was a good ass post discussion, still kinda split on this one but y’all articulated the perspectives very well

Prinnigan

bruh Mark came in hostile and being too aggressive. Cecil literally saw what Mark's dad was capable of. He had to be sure invincible wasn't gonna be a threat and if he wasn't swinging his dick around trying to force demands then Cecil wouldn't have had to use the button. He repeatedly told Mark to calm tf down, but his ego wouldn't let him listen.

Doc Anime!

Yuppp

R Blass

Yuppp

R Blass

The same mark that on 2 seperate occasions has proven that he’d rather die than turn on the humans. The same mark that has gotten beaten to near death by viltrumites and knows how dangerous they can be. The same mark who’s been deal with the mental struggles over “killing” angstom. Yes he would absolutely agree to the contingency if Cecil told him before hand.

AsuraTM

Well, they should not won, 'coz Roshi is correct.

Szazel

This is the longest end discussion I’ve ever seen them have 😭

JennH

Roshi is completely missing the point. Cecil put a fucking kill switch in Mark’s ear, yet he fails to even remotely level with him, despite Mark being his greatest asset. Cecil can’t be all that afraid of the Viltrumites if he’s willing to let the only one who stopped Nolan’s takeover just walk away and distrust him in the process. Cecil constantly holds all the cards, so the whole “he’s afraid” argument is BS. He literally had a trump card that left Mark handicapped for several minutes. And news flash to Roshi—both Nolan and Anissa thought their takeover of Earth would be better for the planet (with fewer casualties). Remember the whole “you let millions die every year of sickness despite us having the tech to cure them” argument? Nolan was looking out for Earth’s interests too, he just lied about his approach. Kinda hypocritical of Cecil to do the exact same thing? So he’s protecting Earth, but at the cost of letting murderers walk free? NGL getting tired of Roshi thinking the asshole who has valid reasons intially, and then completely takes them over the edge, is this symbol of justice (Dracula, Eren, Cecil). I knew from the episode caption what side Roshi was gonna be on, its too predictable.

Sung Woong

Roshi was right, that was a great convo at the end

Damien Glover

Literally 🤣

R Blass

If Cecil really felt threatened, then instead of torturing Mark and using his contingency plan, he easily could've teleported away to de-escalate the situation. The situation didn't warrant Cecil's reaction when there was an alternative that wouldn't end up in alienating the one person you have who's put their life on the line to save the planet time after time.

Jaden Coleman

Good💀💀

R Blass

Freeze the screen right when mark launches at Cecil, the very first time in the white room. Yeah, I'm panic pressing the emergency button to.

Gwyn

Yeah but Darkwing didnt pay at all. He had no time to deal with his consequences before cecil brought him back

R Blass

Threats are getting stronger, and it only gets worse from here…

PhaedrusRumple

Yea like she was making some good points. But we was giving Mark too much slack

Kevin

Doesn't matter, statement still stands

Doc Anime!

Facts

Luhbabytay

To your point about marks speed, remember cecil can teleport faster than omniman so marks speed factor is kinda a moot point. Ex. Season 1 cecil confronting omniman

Yummy_sauce

Thank you!!

R Blass

Cecil wouldn't have to recruit so many villains if the Guardians consistently won their fights. It's that simple.

Tre B

B23

Yup, I totally agree. Sheera was wrong.

Szazel

Literally!!!

R Blass

Yes cause taking Mark into a room full of things, that are the very Reason he is upset is super smart.

Slayer0196

He wasn't "trying" to hurt him is my point. Ofc he did hurt him but it's solely because Mark posed himself as a threat. After making all those remarks and being aggressive, Cecil can't take his chance and is forced to calm him down to make sure he doesn't cause any problem. Also, Mark's reaction is completely reasonable but that doesn't make him in the right. Cecil absolutely has to have some form of contingency plan to prevent any possibility of Mark being a threat to humanity. Hence, Cecil is in the right and Mark is in the wrong; but Mark is most certainly not to blame here if that makes sense.

Seon

Lol cooked him

R Blass

Cecil killed those 2 reformed villains out of anger, mark stormed in after being saved yelling at him. The strongest hero in the world who is part viltrimite thats like a grizzley roaring at you. also Darkwing was out there killing criminals thats something that can be reformed if needed

Soul King

This show is so good, I can't wait until Omniman comes back

Jaden Coleman

he asked a question and laughed after it, in what world in that a genuine question? i didn't bring up a right or wrong so it the question really didn't apply to anything i said, and you calling that playing victim? now yall just being obtuse lmao

Rak

See yall just be saying shit, when has Mark ever suggested looking past the shit Nolan did? He’s never said that and he never said he forgives him and then Cecil tries to make that a point by saying Mark went to "help his mass murdering dad" but that’s not true Mark LITERALLY got tricked into going to that planet where he got surprised and before he could even think properly the viltrumites pulled up lmao

Jarron Taylor

lol Cecil probably has a way to easily stop the immortal as well that we probably just don’t know about. If the Immortal would have threatened Cecil the way Mark did, I think Cecil would do the same exact thing. Cecil is a regular ass human being and it’s his job to protect the world by “ANY MEANS NECESSARY” I do agree with that the conflict didn’t have to continue but I’m thinking that Cecil at that point had no idea what Mark was trying to do. He had just threatened him basically a couple minutes before.

Mari

Cecil was being calm in the beginning because he knew there was a torture device in Mark's head lmfao, Cecil was in no way shape or form a victim

Jaden Coleman

I understand both side and okay with both side. Cecil gotta do what he gotta do . I understand Roshi side a little more tho. Last season they literally show you that every other version of mark was evil and was working for his dad. So for sheera to say mark wouldn’t hurt him is like 50/50

Luhbabytay

I’m with Roshi on this.

Semaj Brown

Mark was 100% trying to drop his D on the table. Cecil was calm the whole time.

Mr. Glasses

Sure was

R Blass

Cecil: Go home Mark, Mark: *Leaves*, Cecil: *Torture* Lmao

Jaden Coleman

Team Cecil man. Cecil did mostly nothing wrong. Invincible has the power to literally obliterate Cecil in the blink of an eye. We give Mark a pass for his anger but we don’t give Cecil a pass for his fear. Mark is 19 but look at how rash he is. Cecil saved the life of almost the majority of earths heroes in that one moment with the worms. No thanks given to him, no thought of what could have happened. If earth quake man killed everyone and then Cecil tells people he could have stopped it after the fact…what then? Cecil spent the entirety of the conversation asking him to calm down. Even when he killed the Reanimen Cecil kept asking him to calm down. Even when he activated the siren Cecil asked him to talk. Lupa and Sheera mention instant distrust, but back to the earlier part Mark immediately distrusted Cecil. It doesn’t matter if Mark hasn’t had a history of killing someone. If a man who has never killed someone wags a gun in your face, it won’t stop your fear because the possibility of loss is there. And you’re going to want to protect yourself. And in terms of track records we haven’t seen Cecil do anything that wasn’t to the benefit of the planet. And that was what the flashback showed us. Specifics in ideologies aside Cecil wants to save as many people as he can. And that’s the issue to be honest. Mark is in fact a hypocrite. If he doesn’t get his way he’s quick to just do his own thing without thinking about the ramifications. Yes he’s 19, but the burden of power eludes him. The guardians broke up because of him, now they’ll be less efficient in missions, does mark care, absolutely tf not. Does he care to tell his family of how Cecil saved him and Eve, absolutely tf not. Does he care how many people Cecil has saved in his career, absolutely tf not. Mark’s way or no way! I agree that the conversation could have gone better on both sides, but I’m not feeling the anger we giving Cecil. Man really doing his best. Order from chaos like they said.

Kevin

The Cecil would fuck around and find out at the expense of the planet lol

Jaden Coleman

I feel like both Sheera and Lupa argue from hindsight/omniscience a lot rather than entertaining uncertainty which is my main gripe.

Viela Guay

Which is exactly why Mark is in the wrong but not to blame.

Seon

That's a good point about Mark saying he'll expose him.

Jaden Coleman

lol fr

Luhbabytay

One thing y’all forgot with the debate is that at the end of the last episode, Mark walked in there and told Cecil verbatim that he was NOT leaving until he did what he wanted. Mark has also proved REPEATEDLY that he WILL ignore Cecil’s wishes, which is fair but with his powers he could shut down the whole thing himself and likely would have. At that point, THEN Cecil walked him into the white room and the whole way there he begged Mark to leave and let cooler heads prevail. He was ready to force Cecil to do what he wanted and I don’t think Mark would have backed down regardless so tbh the situation was inevitable. It was messy on both sides, but I don’t see how it could have played out better unless Cecil just gave into him completely. Loved the reaction!

BigO

team cecil 👑

frankie

i mean he just asked a question and now you are playing the victim acting like someone wants to fight you. Hey you are right the dualities you acting just like cecil

Trey Milliner-Williams

Lupa thank you for telling sonic STFU

Flunk master

I think darkwing was killing innocent people as well. And in the comics he was r***ing as well

Devante Vickers

"You didn't trust me not to murder you in anger? Now I'm going to murder you to prove that you shouldn't have trusted me not to murder you. This is your fault for not trusting me as I'm obviously very trustworthy."

Viela Guay

I know it’s not a bomb lmaoo. Monster girl called it that so I was just using familiar verbiage. Either way body autonomy is thing

Culdesac Jadoni

What a different a couple years and a few traumatic experiences make lol. Mark needs some intense therapy fs

Jaden Coleman

I’m with Sheera 100%

Haileab Fishastion

Nah your right Roshi #TeamCecil Mark is the one who initiated it in the first place but people are trying to gloss over that and skip to the “weapon in his head part” Cecil told him to go home multiple times before they even reached the white room, we wouldn’t even known there was a weapon in his head if Mark didn’t kept pressing and then threatening Cecil.

Mari

(Cecil) Plausible excuse: Been with people long enough to know that anger can lead to accidents. Considering that he was in Mark’s shoes and knew exactly how he was feeling. Except he was an adult in the flashback and Mark here is still a teenager. (Only used his ear device the moment he actually threatened him “im not the one getting hurt) Wrong step: Pushing his luck by holding too tightly on the “control” he has on Mark. And continuing to maintain a stronger grip on the situation by force. Because unfortunately, no adult can educate a Viltrumite teenager with force.

Guns

Not a bomb, a torture device lol

Jaden Coleman

Ngl If a someone with superpowers storms my room like mark did with cecil im doing the exact same thing. Im not taking any chance with "trying to calm him down" when he can behead me in a millisecond. Im on cecils side.

Mori_

You can't really expect Cecil to trust Mark to the point where he has absolutely zero contingency plans to stop Mark in case he turns against humanity. Who's gonna bear the cost if he's wrong? Mark is extremely emotional and should've known what was coming when he got all aggressive and posed himself as a threat.

Seon

angstrom death was very justified that mf not boutta kill my mom and brother

Ketsu

umm No. i didn't say ANYTHING about them being wrong lmao they just literally moved and acted the same way and i thought it was funny. Look at you picking a fight in your own head smh.

Rak

While I do agree that Cecil is right in some ways I also think he is completely wrong in other aspects. One thing is that yes while mark was pissed when he arrived he never threatened Cecil. He yelled and pretty calmly followed Cecil around. He told Cecil hey I mad that you let a murder go free and be a hero again, and Im really mad about you are having Sinclair make more reanimen. What does Cecil do to desclate the situation, take mark into a room full of the reanimen THE VERY THING HE IS UPSET ABOUT and threaten him and tell him to calm down. Cecil handled that so poorly. Then begins to fry mark's brain with sound. Like I get it from Cecils point of view with the sound thing, but if Im mark I am never forgiving you for putting a bomb in my head even if you think its a vaild reason. You have shown me how much you actually trust me. There is a ton more but it seems like others have already discussed it. And with the Guardians who left theu have a very valid reason for doing so. If Cecil would do it to Mark what would stop him from doing something like that to us. Lomd story short Cecil is Logical and a Dumbass.

Slayer0196

Bro I died when ts happened lmao

Jaden Coleman

Yeah, but imagine if the Immortal had done this he wouldn’t have gone that far with him. Mark didn’t even lay a finger on Cecil, but he yeah let me walk into the white room and show off all the robots and other contingency measures I had made to stop you that will calm you down. Mark was acting irrationally but Cecil escalated things, and even after Mark tried to leave he follows him??? The conflict didn’t have to continue, and Mark still didn’t kill Cecil, if he was the threat that he thought he was he could’ve ended him and fucked off the space somewhere maybe take his family.

Enok Nivlac

True, but then again mark is a 19 year old mf on a high horse and no one on the planet to check his ass (unfortunetly). Plus he was raised by someone like debbie, ofc he'd act like a big baby yknow.

Yellow_Flash

Y’all speaking facts but Sheera and Lupa won that one lmaooo😂

Kamron

I see both sides I’m a little more on Cecil side but Mark is the main character so we know he’s not gonna be evil. Also they add/change some stuff with characters they made Cecil more reasonable/ understandable then, in the comics. He more of a snarky ass hole so it makes siding with Mark more easier in the comics than the show.

Noel

I switched it to “control” fits better

TJ

So because they got passionate and heated that makes them wrong? Lmao

Jaden Coleman

He’s not the strongest thing on the planet, he’s the strongest hero

Jarron Taylor

I never said I would go about things morally, I see both sides and in a dire situations fuck morals, do what you can to win. The thing I disagree with is the timing of Cecil using his countermeasures.

Devin B

Intense conversation 😂😂 I’ll be honest, Cecil is right. Or at least has the right thought process, but he did end up taking it too far and letting his fear get the better of him by threatening Mark like that. No reason to make an enemy of a Superman-like character just because he’s young, naive and a little angry. Many of us are/were like that at 19 too, just no powers. Definitely a well done episode. Great show

Has Noname

Damn I forgot too lol

Jaden Coleman

Also technically the re-animen made first contact by grabbing Mark's arm. I don't think Cecil needed the white room, he was just acting out of fear

Jaden Coleman

There's so much to look forward to.

Omar

What most people are missing is context somehow... there has to be a fight on tv, that's simply it Cecil is a brilliant man and dealing with a angsty impulsive teen is to put a bomb in his head? Really Dealing with mark like he did with his father is absurd Mark i beloved and he cares about his friends so Cecil should have approvhed it like homelander style, where his friends and popularity is involved. He should have used dialog and be pedagogical But i guess that would not make great tv...

Ernie

Watch the last minutes of season 2 episode one when Mark goes to Cecil. Cecil was calm and resonable while Mark was angry and demanding stuff and being dismissive of his own murdering actions and didn't want to be locked away in prison but wanting darkwing 2 and sinclar to be locked up despite being the ones to save Mark, Eve and the other heros from doc sesmec and the bugs so Cecil lead him to the white room for his own protection!

Reaper General

darkwing is basically jason todd, he was the originals sidekick who went crazy after darkwing died and started killing villains... hes not like evil or really a badguy

GNEISS

Genuinely many of the arguments I see seem to pretend that Mark just doesn't have powers? Specifically Sheera and Lupa saying Cecil put a gun on the table, as though Mark didn't walk in with a nuke frame 1 of discussion. "Cecil made him mad so it's okay" maybe it's a bad thing that someone with the power to destroy the planet is so easy to anger? It shouldn't be okay for Mark to get quickly mad inherently due to the nature of his power. There's a reason nukes are restricted behind a multi-step process rather than a literal button on a desk

Viela Guay

Cecil was absolutely deliberately hurting Mark as soon as he kept activating the bomb in his head after he started fleeing. Cecil became the aggresor as soon as he started torturing Mark at Guardians HQ and trying to force him into doing what he says. Do you think Mark's reacting to finding out Cecil put a bomb in his head was unreasonable?

Jaden Coleman

How is he trying to play God? By telling mfs what to do?

Yellow_Flash

Plain and simple any superhero powered person and government situation always comes down to a lack of trust

Parlay miles

All Mark had to do was take his ass home and then talk about it later like Cecil said multiple times before they even reached that room. We wouldn’t even known Cecil had something like that implanted into Mark because Cecil would have probably never used it unless he felt threatened the way Mark just had.

Mari

Idk what people are so divisive about. Cecil is trying to control people who are closer to god than humans. Even after Mark being jumped he STILL let Cecil live. He didn’t have to. Everybody knows not to trust Cecil. He had robots waiting to attack him before he even did anything. He’s out of his league. He can’t compete with Invincible. He’s the one with the Ego. Invincible could end him whenever he wants. The fact he didn’t do it after all that…leave him alone.

TJ

Wait hold on, sheera talking facts about how even after cecil using the sound shit, mark was running to rudy instead of attacking cecil there.

Yellow_Flash

bro mark fought his dad and almost died i would trust mark right away if i were cecil

Ketsu

ngl Sheera Cecil brought mark in the white room because he was the one ran in the pentagon and started yelling at him about the villains you cant blame him for literally bring in guards to protect him. Also mark is the strongest person on earth who literally fuck everyone up as shown from the other realities its fine for him to have precautions. Also mark ran into the GG layer and said Cecil is trying to kill him the optics look terrible for Cecil so i don't blame Cecil. Mark was being a little baby instead of talking it out with Cecil and saying his not comfortable with allying with villains.

Casual

But Mark didn’t behave that way he didn’t attack Dark wing or the reanaimen and went to go talk to Cecil first so no that definitely doesn’t support Cecil’s side

traplikemaxxx

I was looking in the comments to see if anyone had say this. Like in season one, Cecil teleported around Omni-Man whenever he tried to punch him. And then people are saying that he is defenseless against Mark. His dad was stronger and faster than him and Cecil still was able to barely teleport away from his attacks.

Cory

(Mark) Plausible excuse: followed Cecil into a small space with things he deemed as instantly threatening, considering they can damage Viltrumites. (Might be seeing Cecil’s actions as overbearing and forcefully trying to shut him up about it) Wrong step: Doesn’t understand that walking towards a man arms flailing and yelling isn’t the mature and correct way to talk. (Was told by Cecil that he had these things to protect him. Anyone mature would say: “Sure, feel as safe as you want over there, I am still not leaving until you explain everything”)

Guns

I think the point is both sides are hypocritical. Neither side is right. Cecil is right in the fact that villains should be given a second chance. But he’s also ignoring the fact that he killed the villains working for the GDA on sight and got sent to prison for it. He’s expecting Mark to be calm and reasonable but when he was put into the same situation at a much more mature age he straight up murdered people in cold blood.

Danye Loodle

No I agree Mark feels guilty about Sinclair, but him saying that is still… foreshadows mark going down a darker path

Matt

Nah i cant blame cecil. Mark forgot he works for cecil and wanted to drop his big D like he ran things. Cecil had every right to protect himself from a dude that can pop his head off before he sees it coming.

YaBoyTroy

Mark wasn’t seeing red, seeing red is what Cecil did in his backstory lmao. Cecil escalated it at every point from shutting down Mark down immediately in the office to showing the reanimen

traplikemaxxx

this is by far my favorite post discussion of this episode. damn near EVERY point was brought up for both sides and discussed. all three of them fucking cooked for the side they were fighting for. #TeamMark

Philbo

Mark: "People change" Most defenses of Mark: "Mark would never change"

Viela Guay

She was cooking lmao

Jaden Coleman

Bro, Season 4 is going to be so peak!!

Robert Smith

The amount of comments in an hour is crazy lmao

Jaden Coleman

Thank you

Enok Nivlac

No that’s the same as pointing a gun, Mark is Invincible. With that logic Mark yelling at Cecil angrily is like pointing a gun at Cecil too. Cecil trusted Nolan and look where that got him, he murdered the entire GOTG. So excuse Cecil for being a little proactive. Cecil said multiple time s he still doesn’t think Mark is bad but he can’t put his trust in Mark over the safety of the planet.

Kozmo

Naw Mark shouldn't have just broken into the Pentagon demanding shit. He has to understand he's the strongest thing on the planet. Cecil is a normal human who has to protect the world. Mark was literally proving all of Cecil's points. Plus you pissed at Cecil for saving all of the HEROS!!! He became too entitled. Even if Cecil did put them back in prison. He can literally just get them back out anytime he wants.

Doc Anime!

Regardless of who’s right we can agree the way Cecil handled the situation was poor. You already have someone who’s mad at you that can wipe out the Earth if needed but has shown why he’s trustworthy and the first thing you do when you have a disagreement is lure him into a room of countermeasures against him and tell it to his face. Cecil feared for his life and jumped the gun and as a result lost his strongest weapon and most of his Guardians.

Devin B

Dawg, that's like literally a huge piece of support to Cecil's decision. If he knows what he did in that situation, then of course it'd make sense to assume Mark might behave similarly.

Viela Guay

We literally just saw that Cecil never really trusted Omni man from the start in that flashback, and he witnessed mark almost die trying to stop his father from taking over the planet and even succeeded in making him live. As well as watch Mark almost die many other times trying to save lives. This is different, he always viewed Mark for what his father did.

Enok Nivlac

Again, i agree with Cecil, he did his plan a little early but everything he said and did is completely valid

GigaDirt

bro ragebaited mark hard🙏🏽😭

Alex M

Can someone make an edit of 21:42 and put Roshi as invincible and the zombies as Sheera and Lupa

XvjackvX122

You got to remember his father was saving the earth for years then just turned on them granted Mark wouldn't turn on the earth but if you been working with his father for years and he turned on you and there is nothing on earth that can stop him when you find something that can you would have a backup plan even Batman had measures in place if any of the heroes including himself went bad

Leon

He was the world's hero by putting up a facade that Cecil clearly knew about, from his knowledge of Omni-man lying from the beginning to his lack of surprise when he found out he killed the guardians. Cecil comparing Mark to his father after Mark actively defended the earth from him and almost dying should count for more than anything Omni-man did in 20 years. Mark literally refused to even lie about enslaving the earth last season knowing damn well he could die as a result of it. I think Cecil is controlled by fear and his desire to control everything

Jaden Coleman

You know its good when the three of yall don't have the same opinions, I love seeing everyone's point of views

6CatsInAnAlley

I was just about to say that just because someone has different perspectives, don’t mean they’re wrong and your right. They’re right and you’re wrong. Mark is hotheaded that is no lie but he’s a kid, he thought Cecil would trust him. I want to ask imagine someone said ‘Yeah, you’re just like psychotic killer’ who’s also your dad, when he’s the only reason you were able to stop this psychotic killer. Cecil is not wrong for having defenses, if anything I encourage him to have more but don’t let him know( A known hidden blade is as deadly as a fruit or whatever). You’re also implying mark should’ve stopped shouting or he should’ve calmed and yes I Agree but Cecil immediately made mark feel on guard. Second point is that imagine because you pissed your boss off, he set off a sound bomb in your head. Would you say oh yeah bro I understand, if anything please put more weapons in me. This shit was scoffed.

Teejay

Sheera made points I wasn’t even thinking about Five Stars, Ws in the chat #TeamMark

Amos

lmaoo sheera gotta be marks lawyer

MonkeeyDthomas

And Sheera called Lupa his real name too lol, real discussion

bombasticmrfox

i feel like people forget that not just mark witnessed what nolan did and didn’t just fuck HIM up. after being THAT terrified that everyone was going to die bc an all powerful man is killing everyone in site to prove a point, i would be fucking terrified of what could become. and after watch mark also kill people and slowly watching him become more desensitized to murder, i would be hella scared if he busted in screaming and refusing to leave. i get marks anger, he also didn’t handle any of that right. cecil asked him hella times to just calm down and lets talk but he made it clear that wasn’t an option. cecil would be dumb asl to not take any precautions with mark, to just trust an all powerful guy with his abilities that he will never turn out like nolan even though he his constantly exposed to violence is just dumb. if mark went on a rampage and killed people everyone would think cecil dumb bc he could at least attempted to take precautions but chose to just trust him

Skye Brooklyn

Sheera pretty much argued the entire point I would have made, and why I side with Mark. I understand why Cecil has contingencies, but that doesn't mean I agree with his approach. Mark was aggro over the shit he just saw and was tryna talk to Cecil bout it, but Cecil kept minimizing and deflecting and walking away. Cecil fears anything he can't control so he led Mark to the white room, trapped and immediately threatened him with the reanimen. Then, he tried to spin it on Mark as he he had threatened to kill Cecil. Then, showed his full hand, his ONLY actual weapon against Mark because of something Cecil himself instigated. Then, when Mark was leaving, he chased Mark down and kept activating the bomb in his head. Then, did the same thing in front of Mark's friends simply because he didn't comply. Then, he had the gall to threaten him, again, then act like nothing happened. Cecil wants an attack dog and nothing more. It's like Monster Girl said; Cecil views them no differently from a gun or a tank. He fears Mark not because of his power, but because he can't control him. Mark was reasonably angry; murderers were on the loose and were employed by Cecil. Cecil said they'd be imprisoned, but they weren't. Cecil using Sinclair and Darkwing II just tells the public that they can be a serial murderer and get away with it, and be protected by the government, as long as they're good enough at killing people. Mark was not acting like a child; he saw the government protecting and employing murderers and reasonably got angry, and, again, reasonably, wanted them to be imprisoned, as Cecil promised they would be in the first place.

namnas

Cecil bringing those robots out was the equivalent of pointing a gun at someone you don’t trust. Cecil never really trusted Mark even though he almost dead in many occasions trying to save lives and the world. Mark walked up to him but that’s it he didn’t lay one finger on Cecil, until he had enough at Guardians HQ. The Immortal can do nearly the same amount of damage to him, but he never went that fair with him. Because both him and the Immortal only judge Mark for his father’s crimes.

Enok Nivlac

Exactly. The minute Mark refused to lie about enslaving earth even when Cecil told him to is the biggest show of loyalty to earth ever. His life is on the line and he stood his ground and said I dont fuck with that I stand with earth.

Slayer0196

When Cecil found out about to two villains in his back story he immediately shot the two villains but when Mark finds out he at least goes to talk to Cecil first but instead of Cecil talking him through and saying he understands how he feels which he should know to do given his backstory he just shuts Mark down and leads him to the white room

traplikemaxxx

I see everyone calling Mark a hypocrite and shit but Cecil is being one as well. It took Cecil months to come to terms with having to work with villains. Hell the moment he started working with some he merced them on site. Yet he’s expecting Mark to be a calm and reasonable person when you bring in someone without warning that have fucked with you and your friends. I have no problem with Cecil having the contingencies but he was too ready to use them.

Danye Loodle

To be absolutely frank, Cecil is 100% right in this situation. He isn't deliberately trying to hurt Mark; he's simply having a contingency plan for "potential" scenarios where Mark might go rogue or what not. Cecil wasn't even going to use the contingency plan and urged Mark to stop until he realised that Mark wasn't going to calm down. It's absolutely logical and rational to have precautions for every possible scenario before it's too late. Especially given Mark's powers, it would be an absolute catastrophe if there's zero contingency plan to stop him in case he turns against humanity.

Seon

So you agree they started off in his office and she forgot?

Kou

In that moment Mark was not flying at Cecil he was attacking the re-animen. Cecil bringing more re-animen escalated the situation. He could have had them on standby maybe but I think their presence made him more mad bc Mark was mad about Sinclair in the first place so maybe another countermeasure should have been used. But they really don't have very much countermeasures for Mark in the first place

M00nD0ggie13

Watched a couple different reactions of this episode and so happy to see Roshi (The only one I've seen so far) has my point of view on this. There is so much on this episode you could write an essay but you can really boil it down to a few points. -Cecil handled it badly but he was working under the pressure of being in the room with an angry Viltrumite -This Viltrumite and his Dad turned part of Chicago into a bombed out warzone, sunk a cruise ship, and buried a village as collateral damage during a "Family disagreement". In minutes. -Mark could be the most trustworthy person on the planet, there is no real check or contingency for him and even Mark said, "People change". -Trust doesn't come enter the equation because the consequences if Cecil is WRONG on that bet of Mark being on his side is humanity's enslavement or extinction. -Oh, and last season Mark fucked off to space to talk to Mass-Murdering Father who killed hundreds or thousands in the S1 Finale, with no way to verify he didn't flip Mark. Omni-Man almost died saving earth too over his career, didn't stop him. EDIT: One last point about "Talking him down". Cecil tried it but Mark can do a lap to the moon in back in like what, seven minutes? I could find out he was flying to DC from California, have my finger on the trigger, and still not have enough time to pull it before he turned me into paste.

Emko

sheera getting heated at the end was hilarious

kairohcounty

Also, cool little easter egg with Donald saying "I'll be your number one." Fairly good chance that was the original Donald

Mervyn Larrier

Roshi forgetting cecil can just teleport away from mark, and marks speed isn’t a factor because in season 1 he teleported faster than omniman

Yummy_sauce

“Talk Mark down” by shutting him down completely? LMAO he didn’t even try to explain it to Mark before walking to the white room

traplikemaxxx

Sheera was COOKING 🔥🔥🔥

Amos

Cecil had no idea what Mark was going to do at that point.

Mari

And then use it at the first notion of disagreement lol. Even Batman doesn't automatically pull out the kyptonite just because Superman got angry at him.

George

Cecil was walking to his protection Mark followed him. And again he wasn’t threatening him by showing him the reanimation he was bracing himself. Mark was seeing red and Cecil just wanted to be prepared if Mark lost his cool. If Cecil wanted too he could’ve just pressed the sonic noise button from the jump but instead he repeatedly asked Mark to stop but he wouldn’t.

Kozmo

Notice how the two people defending mark were raising their voices and flailing their arms early into the convo LMAO #dualities

Rak

Team Mark

Amos

I also want to know what Cecil was planning on doing to Mark when he brought him back lol

Jaden Coleman

Also I think it is a bit cap to say that he was trying to calm him down. Yeah, sure he was speaking in a calm tone, but Cecil essentially lead him into a trap and had the threat of the cyborgs hanging over Marks head during that entire conversation, that was going to do nothing but aggravate Mark. The threats started the moment they entered the room. Cecil was already escalating the situation before mark through the first punch. Cecil for all his justified plans didn’t have the self-control to properly make use of them.

A Guy

Torturing ? He told mark to stop multiple times and to go home and he didn’t listen, Mark just kept trying to press Cecil into stopping what he was doing and he basically told mark no. But Mark kept on and kept on, to that point Cecil felt threatened and scared because he knows Mark can easily hurt him or easily kill him if Mark wanted too.

Mari

I mean, but Mark second guessing himself when it comes to Sinclair makes sense in the context of the situation. To Mark, the guy that killed all these innocent people, and attacked his best friend and bf didn't end up in prison, they ended up just working for someone else. He probably thinks he failed.

Jaden Coleman

Bro, do u just change ur pfp everyday to some random gyat? 😭

Yellow_Flash

Lol the trio fighting amongst themselves on who is right in the Mark v Cecil debate showcases the best thing about the series; sometimes, there isn't necessarily a 'good' side. You come to understand both. The grey area is the best, and this series delves deep into it. Cecil was right to put a bomb in Mark's head. He has to watch after the entire world's safety - and Mark is a half-breed compared to a true Viltrumate atm. But the damage he can do alone is devastating. I don't think our Mark would ever change sides to Viltrum, but the mere possibility is horrifying, and that's what Cecil fears. Humanity barely stands a chance with him. Without, its a wash. At the same time, Mark pressed hard, and Cecil reacted too strongly. I think he should of held off with the sonic control device in Mark's brain. But Cecil fears what Mark could do, so much so he needs control over him, and shows his hand too early. Yet you understand all sides the same, if you have an open enough mind. That's why I love this episode so much.

CaptainFlowers

I never said he shouldn’t have it but he should use it with the intention to kill mark otherwise why even use it cause your scared? That’s not a good enough reason when if your plan fails I destroy the planet you better be sure that you need or intend to kill me.

Imari

Literal Cecil vs the guardians situation 💀 Bro got blasted from all sides

Guns

Lets see how far your morals get you when the viltrumites come to r*pe the planet 🙏

Yellow_Flash

perfectly said

pradasteelo

Dawg, even showing the reanimen is essentially threatening Mark why do yall just ignore this. Cecil deliberately led him to the white room as well

traplikemaxxx

Then when mark was going home Cecil went after him with the weapon ❤️

Imari

I mean yeah but the point still stands lmaoo

Culdesac Jadoni

Mark was acting like a child and needed to be addressed as such. Cecil didn't handle everything perfectly, but Mark is incredibly shortsighted and biased. Nolan killed way more people than Sinclair and Darkwing and he's fine looking past that to rebuild a relationship with him. Nolan LITERALLY reduced the fighting power of earth by a good margin when he took out the Guardians as well. After 20 years of working and "risking" his life Nolan betrayed Earth. Mark is taking it personally when Cecil doesn't trust anyone to be frank and honestly, Mark lucky Cecil didn't put something akin to a bomb in his head. Whining about personal beefs when the entire world is in a horrendous position almost exclusively because of your dad is wild and immature

Antonio

Bro, I already can't wait for the next season for my dino boy. The nuisance and discussion that continues to build off of saving the world vs being a hero is going to be so good.

Omar

Cecil definetily made a hasty decision to use that sound device. At no point in time was Mark going for Cecil (in the white room; in the guardians base mark was in the right to threaten him). Cecils little bitch ass was trying to prevent further robot casualties

zILovePelmeni _

Both sides have good arguments and both mark and cecil could have made better decisions. Cecil just felt a little more logical. (55/45 at worst) Like even before S3 just show mark what omniman did already gets me on cecils side just for the fear factor alone. Ya mark is still a kid but that makes it worse with his anger and his naive outlook. Not saying mark should agree but he should understand. Thats also the point of cecils backstory and how it mirrors soo much to right now.

Keondodge

But it's not a bomb though lol

VibeWolf

Lol you know it’s a good discussion when Lupa uses Roshi’s government

Devin B

I get what Roshi is saying but how can you say that we need to use whatever we can to help save the world but also want Mark to kill every supervillain? If Cecil can reform them, why would you ever want any supervillains to die? Doc Seismic could help out the GDA a lot and he has the same ideology as the Freeing Fists but you wanted Mark to kill him. Someone has to explain that one to me.

Robert Smith

Cecil is going to fuck around and find out honestly. Cecil's problem is that he constantly does things behind people's back and then expects them to just implicitly trust him. That's why Debbie doesn't like him, Nolan barely tolerated him even when pretending to be a good guy, and he has a strained relationship with most people. He's most likely self-aware enough to realize this which is why he partly hates himself too. I get his perspective and I agree with his logic, but if Mark ended up crashing out and becoming a villain, it would have been his fault for pushing one of the strongest people on the planet to their breaking point.

George

You know the show's good when it has people arguing about who's right and wrong even when the episodes over

Attic

Wasn’t Cecil try to calm him down immediately in the office, while walking to the white room and in the white room? Lupa talking about distrust but his father built years of trust with Earth’s defense though, no? People can change

Shaquan Hypolite

Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion but man some of y’all are just wrong😂

Kamron

I really liked episode 4, but this episode was so well written

Jaden Coleman

I can understand Cecil activating it at that moment but he led Mark into the room while he was already mad and then you’re going to tell him that you have countermeasures against him. Of course Mark is going to be even more pissed off than he should. What Luka and Sheera are saying is it shouldn’t have got to that point to show the countermeasures but Cecil led Mark to that point out of fear.

Devin B

Bruh Omniman was the worlds hero for 20 years. Everyone's superman that people looked up to. That's trust built. Cecil don't fully trust nobody but let's not pretend Omniman didn't earn some goodwill.

VibeWolf

Invincible refused to even lie that he would betray earth when Anissa was about to kill him. He would rather die than validate Cecil's claims. When Cecil put a bomb in Mark's head he vastly increased the chances of a fallout between him and Mark. Either Mark would find the device or Cecil would use it prematurely. If you treat your enemies and allies the same which is which.

Nathan Hale

You just can’t put a bomb in a niggas head without consent 😂

Culdesac Jadoni

Nah you in the right king don't back down

The Pharaoh

By Mark's logic if you kill someone, good or bad, you deserve to go to prison. In Sinclairs case it makes sense. But for Darkwing he only killed criminals, Mark killed Angstrom so should also be in prison. It doesn't matter the situation, you deserve to be in prison because you killed someone. This is based off of Mark's logic.

Lisha Goode

He also refused to even lie about enslaving earth to the Viltrumite from last season too.

Jaden Coleman

I understand why Cecil set the contingencies that he did, but he handled the situation in the worst possible way he could’ve. You know what Batman didn’t do when he uploaded that virus he didn’t activate it the first moment he and cyborg got into an argument. It took the actual worst case scenario to set that off. Cecil was being extremely childish, which is saying something considering how young mark is.

A Guy

And you guys think if Cecil told Mark that he had implanted something in his head, he wouldn’t just get it taken out ?😂 you guys are crazy, that would defeat the whole purpose, and I’m coming from a viewpoint as a regular ass human being. I’d want a plan to stop Mark as well if he ever came at me the way he did and I felt threatened. I don’t care if he’s a “child” or not, he can easily destroy me if he wanted to so excuse me for putting something inside his head just in case I felt threatened by him.

Mari

They had legitimate points lol

bombasticmrfox

I saw it, he had 3 years to conform to that way of thinking and he still hated it even at the end of that three years I bet he didn’t rehabilitate anyone until 5+years after that incident. Mark literally had a few minutes. That’s it….

Zigon

Bro what , there was no 20 years of trust Cecil knew Omni man was lying about being a good guy

Hyperion⚔️

Mark wasn’t going after Cecil, he was going after the reanimen. Which are basically just mindless corpses. It’d be a different story of Mark was about to punch Cecil

Nota-kun

Mark and Cecil are both right in their own ways, tho Cecil did cross the line by putting a failsafe in his head. Also it feels like Mark is slowly getting desensitized to killing. The Multi Paul’s and Reaniman were passable, but now he’s making threats and asking if he should’ve killed Sinclair… Mark gotta chill just a little lol.

Matt

It doesn’t help that the weapons used against him are also traumatizing for mark. One were versions of robots that sinclair made where the originals were innocent people and even hurt his friend. While they also put a weapon that causes him pain in his head. During a moment he was severely injured while the GDA was supposed to be helping them. There’s like multiple layers of betrayal behind what went down in the white room. Not saying that there shouldn’t have been any countermeasures for mark but, it should’ve just been done differently.

King Kryptic

I'd look like Omniman too if I were getting tortured lol

Jaden Coleman

The bomb in marks head was way over the line bro

REESE

I do love the complexity of the show and I know it only gets more complex. Like they’re both wrong and right for different reasons. Although damn I’m not going to piss off the guy that can literally kill a billion people with a sneeze, like what even was Cecil’s plan. Bring him back to the GDA? Then what!?

retrocalie

1000/10 post episode discussion

Umwuka

Man Darkwings powers are so cool, it would really be a waste to have him rot in prison 🙏

Yellow_Flash

They having a disagreement in they place of buisness Cecil US got the funds to fix a broken wall, if you feel threatened the min someone raises they voice against you when they makin valid point that's kinda crazy(referring to cecil) he really put a updatable device in mark head secretly in season 1 after BB hospitalsized him to not only spy but not immobilize him

Tremaine

I think Mark has proven time and time again that he isn't like his dad so Cecil always throwing his dads action in his face is annoying, especially when he risks his life to protect the planet over and over again. I don't blame Cecil for having a contingency plan but if Mark wanted to turn on everyone on the planet he would've done it by now.

Diggs

The whole redeeming villains is fine if they truly want to change mark is tripping once they fuck up that second chance then yea get them out of here

Casual

Mark's face when he asked Cecil if he meant anything he said about him and his dad was pretty impactful imo. That scene of them two in the diner last season makes Cecil look pretty crazy right now

Jaden Coleman

It’s the fact of how he went about it. With Batman’s contingency plans at least the league knows about them, he implanted that thing in marks head without him knowing and then proceeded to spam it repeatedly. Also that whole thing could’ve been avoided if Cecil just talked to Mark instead of saying “just go home”. Mark is reasonable when you talk to him the only reason he was getting pissed was because Cecil was basically just dismissing him.

Nota-kun

1.)Cecil didn’t trust Omni man from the start just used him to help people 2.)Mark instantly fought his dad and almost died(was in a coma for weeks) 3.)Cecil legit told mark to say “I’ll get earth ready for viltrum” but Mark would rather die than say that 4.)Cecil isn’t wrong for having a contingency plan but the fact that he tried to act like mark was a lil bitch and disrespecting him was a terrible idea and bad way to go about what he was doin

YaHuurdMe

Think your lacking some narrative here. The backstory was to show that he learned from his past to rehabilitate and use them instead of wasting them. It’s not hypocritical lol. They already showed him moving past that and reconciling with it.

KingMarkoIII

At no point in that white room did Cecil initiate the violence. Mark stepped towards Cecil and a Robot grabbed his arm and the Mark went apeshit. Cecil did nothing wrong!

Kozmo

The thing is Batman’s group KNOWS he has contingencies for them. When they didn’t and they found out(tower of babel). It nearly broke the league apart and made the earth WEAKER as they couldn’t work together due to not trusting each other. Superman acknowledges that even though he’s a good guy if he goes bad they need a way to stop him, which is way he gave Batman the kryptonite. Cecil didn’t trust mark to tell him about his contingencies

AsuraTM

The thing that gets me is Sheera going on and on about Cecil should trust Mark not to hurt him. Omniman literally built 20 years of trust just to destroy it all. So spare with 'he should know better' no the fuck he doesnt. People change on a dime and Mark is a hyprocrit. If we didn't know Mark at all and everything played out the same no one would be that upset with Cecil. Mark wouldn't have deescalated cause he was going to throw his weight around if Cecil didn't comply.

VibeWolf

Does anyone else think the music playing in the background makes the discussion 100x funnier

Mauze

Which is why he is also training Mark. Cecil doesn't negate the possibility of Mark turning against him so there's technically no wrong in having a precaution in case something happens. I don't agree with his methods but it's rational and smart

Seon

While I understand the concept of having some kind of defense against the possibility of mark going down the same route his dad did, the way he did it was terrible he breached trust on multiple stances, the whole thing w dark wing and the bots and doing it behind his back when mark was kind of directly involved in both cases and in ways had his life or people he loves threatened that would upset anybody and even though cecil was calm when speaking he was also extremely dismissive and at first just kept telling mark to leave and he doesnt need to involve himself, and then brought out those bots to try and intimidate mark, and putting the thing in his head and the whole “proving why he needed to” isnt right bc none of this would’ve happened in the first place if cecil would’ve at least attended to have a sit down with mark way beforehand. and mark proved his loyalty when he almost died at the hands of his dad at the end of season 1 saying he would rather die than do what he was trying to, and cecil was training him to be stronger to have a chance at defending themselves against any possible viltrumite that might come now he completely broke their relationship and trust with the way he did things its not what he did

HrlIEJB

This is the first thing I thought of. It's like everyone forgot how much Mark went through in season 1 to protect the earth.

Jaden Coleman

they jumped me in the end discussion

YaBoyRoshi

Cecil told him to go home but then chased him after he left

King Kryptic

Cecil is wrong because of how he executed this. It took all of a 2 min disagreement to make him instantly pull out the torture. Then he tries dragging mark back to HQ unwillingly. No matter how you swing it Mark didnt do anything to warrant Cecils reaction. All mark said was "im going to tell everyone about what you did", and Cecil tried to gaslight him into thinking everyone is ok with it when clearly the guardians arent. While yes Cecil is justified in being scared of Mark he is not justified in torturing people who dont agree with his perspective. Also we have no idea what he did to Darkwing to make him fall in line.

Trey Milliner-Williams

Justice League Doom is all I'll say

Kisuke01

I think both sides have good points but where Cecil lost a lot is when they showed that flashback with Nolan. Like if you saw they he potentially is lying and have started counter measures, you can easily see how different Mark is from his dad with all those years of watching Omni man and seeing how he ended up. Plus using those countermeasures when they aren’t even 100 percent effective was dumb. Again I’m not on any sides but I can see more why mark is acting, Cecil kinda fucked up the most imo

Drakuse

Good points on both sides, but Cecil messed up by not explaining anything. When asked what's going on he pretty much just said "fuck you" i dont have to explain anything to you

Tankakawade

CECIL DID NOTHING WRONG I AGREE WITH ROSHI

Syed Hamza Ali

hypothetical but what if cecil would have captured Mark and locked him up and the guardians weren't able to help him, what do yall think Mark's Dad would do to the Earth if he came back and saw his family locked up by Cecil Lmaoooo

Daylen

Sheera was spitting hot 🔥

A.I.

The difference is Batman doesn't pull out and use his contingency plan on Superman any time he doesn't agree with Batman or do what he says. Cecil was literally torturing Mark to force him into doing what he says. "The kid's off leash" He wants control and obedience from him because he's scared. Cecil is less like Batman and much more like Amanda Waller

Jaden Coleman

Fr, maybe the first couple times was just so that mark could see what he could do but notice the entire time the guardians were fighting he had his finger on the trigger the whole time. So for that entire time Mark just had that sound blasting in his head.

Nota-kun

yeah, that's also the thing - cecil got a lot of time to learn his lesson, and mark gets what? less than a conversation? it really does feel like cecil jumped the gun on his contingency plan, and then just telling everyone to shut the fuck up instead of properly explaining himself when things weren't going his way cecil is right to have things ready in case mark goes dark, but escalating to that level over an argument about reforming killers was a real poor decision

Michael McPhee

Sheera was speaking nothing but fax

oba ogun

You can say whatever you want about this episode but all imma say is Cecil told Mark to go home and he went to leave and Cecil hit him again... that's grounds for me to fuck you up.

Bacardi Giovanetty

Cecil has a weapon inside Marks head. Thats why he was so calm. You can't play the "scared/threatened" card when you are the one with the gun under the table pointed at someone. Cecil doesn't have to pull a button out of his pocket. He already had his finger on it in his pocket. To say Cecil has no powers is true but also false. All the gadgets, weapons and shit at his disposal. Cecil literally killed everyone he didn't like in the prison simply for control and power. He didn't have to do that. He could've just asserted dominance and then minded his own business but instead he took lives for no reason. At the end of the day Mark refused to join his father. He fought his father for humanity. He literally was on deaths door because he choose humans over his father. He has done nothing to show and prove himself. If Mark hadn't opposed his father or fought him everyone on Earth would've been conquered and those who fought back killed.

Jordan Postle

Seems like a lot of people are trying to go over the fact that Cecil was being calm in the beginning and told Mark to go home multiple times and they’d talk about it later but okay 👍 😂 I know a lot of people are just going to gravitate towards Mark side because he’s the main character but come on. I don’t want to hear “Mark was never actually going to hurt him” how do you know that, he was mad as soon as he went into the pentagon and started pressing Cecil about his ethics. Mark literally only sees things one way and doesn’t care about anyone else’s and then starts trying to press them because he knows he’s stronger than everyone else which Cecil said.

Mari

I’m with Cecil ngl… Mark didn’t have to keep walking up to Cecil in the white room, that’s like Superman threatening commissioner Gordon. Mark brought it on himself💀

ravion

I just feel like Cecil is correct but should have not done it like this. Bro even with the argument Mark can just speed-blitz him so he had to show the contingencies, no he can't. Like Omni Man and Cecil fight in season one, Cecil can just teleport before any viltrimite attacks him. If Mark actually attacks him, teleport and then show the contingencies as it is valid now.

sarthak bhatia

Sheera cooked Roshi on this one ngl

Drakuse

Technically mark ain't break into the pentagon he "worked" for Cecil in the direct moment so that's not a valid argument to say Mark was threatening from the get go

Tremaine

All this talk about rehabilitation and forgiveness from Cecil and Immortal accepting Darkwing, let's see how they react when Omniman comes back. Will they rehabilitate him too?

Marlia

It was wild because he kept using the device over and over again and wasn't going to stop until Mark did what he said. If I'm Mark then that relationship is definitely done forever

Jaden Coleman

I get that Cecil's justification is that this is to save the earth. But Mark is his best chance to save the earth period. Cecil keeps on thinking he can create a way to fight the viltrumites ,but we have concrete evidence that he can't handle even one. Even Rudy knows the best strategy is to cozy up to Mark. It's just survival.

Nathan Hale

I think both of them were right in their way but you gotta realise Cecil is an IMPORTANT Government official who works in the PENTAGON. He trusts Mark to a certain degree but there’s no such thing as "trust" or "distrust" in his book when it comes to the Job. Imagine you've known the FBI director for a couple of years and even though you have a relationship, if you’re a threat to the planet to the level Mark is he's letting you know. Cecil CANNOT afford to be complacent with Mark because remember this is one of the only realities where mark is good and doesn’t join the viltrum empire. Mark is correct in his way but he's gotta realise that you cannot storm into the pentagon and threaten an important government official without consequences. That's what the immortal was referring to when he said "Good, he learned about consequences for once"

CACTUSJEET

I pretty much side with Mark, but I also think Cecil is right when it comes to reform. I think people can genuinely change, and I think we're exploring that exact idea with Omi-man in a really cool way

Jaden Coleman

I just didn’t like Cecil turning up on Mark about being a hypocrite trying to help his dad but not let other people that made mistakes have a shot. but he literally did the same hypocritical thing in his flash back. I don’t trust Cecil and I think Immortal is brainwashed and all the villains they turned. And all of them report to the director so I’m sure they did something to their brain and they might have tried to do that to Mark. Also he could have talk to him about the reanimen mark just didn’t see them because his dad clapped them in season 1 almost a whole year passed and he didn’t say nothing.

Zigon

W end discussion 😂 reminded me of RTTV end discussions a bit lol

Alex

Team Cecil

panda_senpai

I hate how in the show they think cecil will actually kill them 🤦‍♂️they have to be tarded bro. Size shifter didnt even have a scratch on her and she talkin bout cecil tried to have me ripped apart 🙆‍♂️ how stupid can you be? They literally need yall sorry asses ( as unfortunate as that is, cos they are utter trash as heroes 😭 )

Yellow_Flash

B4 I forget Cecil also said go home mark, then at guardians HQ he said he’s coming back to the gda with me,,, nawwwww Cecil is a op never let a snake bite you twice iight all im saying

Gorrr

Cecil played his contingency plan way to early and way to aggressively. No one faults Cecil for having a plan in case mark goes off the deep end. The issue is that conversation wasn’t the deep end mark was maybe aggressive but what he was asking for wasn’t crazy. Cecil could have easily fake thrown Sinclair and actually thrown Darkwing in prison cause he only really needs Sinclair robots to kill mark. He was trying to be difficult by trying to change marks perspective on heroism. The only way you change ideals like that is if you have hands on experience doing the opposite of what you believe in and mark only has killed angstrom so he wouldn’t get Cecil ideals just yet. So Cecil should have just waited to use his contingency when he actually felt like mark was a threat to him and kill him with it, not in a petty conversation about throwing someone in jail. Then after he used his contingency how was he expecting mark to just go back and work for him??? Even after mark tried to leave instead of killing Cecil which would have been valid. He followed him and kept using his weapon on him. Then instead of leaving mark with the guardians he pulls up with the robots and continues to beat the shit out of mark in front of them. He was trying to outright let mark know “hey I can kill you whenever I want so listen to me” how would anyone just be ok with that.

Imari

Honestly this isn't black and white it's very gray

Krype

It's also interesting how frustrated Cecil seems to be with Mark and his perspective when it took Cecil years in prison to kinda figure out himself. Cecil's also extremely controlling, "The kid's off leash" and forcing Mark to do what he says or else he'll torture him into it, he definitely didn't handle that well.

Jaden Coleman

I feel like Cecil agitated him into doing that also. Sure he was being aggressive but from what you have seen from Mark he should have known not to show more contogencies and agitate him further. Like the flashback, the other head slowly shifted Cecil's views even though Cecil was hard-struck on his way. Cecil could have let mark slowly get found with the idea rather than being like you have to accept my way or else

sarthak bhatia

yall gotta realize Cecil is In charge of Global Defense if Mark would've at any point just decided to go full villain like his dad already did he needs a quick effective way to end the threat. Like I'm not understanding peoples arguments against Cecil when we've seen that in literally every other reality Invicible goes bad along with his dad I guarantee that if Cecil had that earpiece put in his head in those other dimensions the earth might not have fell so quick to omni man (wanted to take a second to state that invincible knows his variants are evil and yet still finds it a huge issue to see people afraid of him. He keeps saying he's not his dad he's right he's invincible and he has betrayed earth in every other timeline). Also according to Mark its completely fine to try to redeem a super space killer who essentially destroyed a city while caving invisible's face in because that's his dad, but let Cecil recruit people who can legitimately help and who have kill counts that are a fraction of omni man's and all of a sudden they are irredeemable murderers. Mark is a hypocrite.

AmpLvX

You need to look at it objectively, Mark does nothing until one of the robots lays their hands on him, words matter yes but Invincible simply walked around agitated, Cecil spawned murder bots as his form of agitation, how can you not see the difference

Mruker

What are we talking about, we forgetting Mark instantly fought his dad when he told him everything and He would’ve rather died instead of said he will get earth ready for Viltrum. Then when mark disagrees with him Mark confronts him and slams him hands on Cecil’s desk with “human” strength. Then he walks into the whiteroom trying to gaslight him sayin he’s scared and popping reanimans out and trapping him.

YaHuurdMe

The difference is Batman didn’t use those plans when he had a disagreement with his team members, Cecil decided to break out his countermeasures during their first argument

Devin B

Cecil wrong asl

Jjb

Big ass baby throwing a temper tantrum, if he would’ve just went home like Cecil told him to multiple times before they even entered the white room, that wouldn’t had happened. Cecil obviously didn’t feel comfortable with him coming at him like that and he was scared so I don’t know what people wanted him to do. Mark could literally kill him without trying to, Cecil is a regular human while Mark is basically “INVINCIBLE”.

Mari

All I’m saying is putting a weapon inside the strongest ALLY you have an damn near torturing him with it is superrrr wrong

Gorrr

Yeah mark should've took Cecil off the map tbh

Jjb

It’s Cecil job to protect the earth, the just like how Batman has a CONTINGENCY PLAN for all the justice league members just in case they turn on him. We’d be FUCKED if we didn’t have someone like Cecil on our side, and for the serial killer scientist he has working for him now. He’s using the robots for good, why not make use of a villain’s ability’s or knowledge so you can do better things with them.

Mari

Ok ok waittt, 1. Mark messed up first cause he broke into the PENTAGON an went straight for Cecil already agitated remember he slammed his hands on Cecil desk. 2 Cecil could have change the way these things looked like whatttt.3 you telling me it’s ok to put a weapon inside a kid instead of it being around u like Batman keeps kryptonite not inside Superman with a lead casing he just opens its ON batman

Gorrr

mark wasn't flying directly towards him? he was flying towards a reaniman

edc. able

#TeamBabyBilly

Carlos

I don't know how I never pieced that together, that's crazy

Jaden Coleman

Immortal needs a good ass beating. He apparently forgot he lost to Omniman and Mark wasnt even trying when they fought.

Trey Milliner-Williams

I just want to point out to everyone just how quickly Mark's healing now. He had a humungous hole in his chest earlier that day and by the end of the day it was basically healed. That's INSANE

Mervyn Larrier

Sheera seems to have forgotten the conversation started in Cecils office, where he was very calm and tried to talk to Mark down. Then he started walking very slowly down hallways to the white room.

Kou

Darkwing should honestly be given a second chance only thing I disagree with on marks side he was really only going after criminals and his powers are busted and useful

Jjb

Seeing Mark go off once the frequency was blocked is terrifying. It's like the whole spiderman thing where he's always holding back.

Jorary209

Roshi Squad: Civil War

CACTUSJEET

Im with Sheera and Lupa I'm not gonna lie

Rashad Patton

Cecil MVP

Frederick

Contingency plans is a little different than implanting a weapon inside someone's brain imagine if batman just secretly implanted some type kryptonite bomb in his head then lied and acted like he was cool wit him for years

Jjb

i know people have said it but honestly, it all comes down to execution on cecil's part - having contingency plans in place? makes sense, totally fair. what you don't do is whip out the contingency plan the first time mark disagrees with you. cecil didn't need to do all that and mark didn't need to come into the situation as hot as he did. they're two people with valid points who fumbled over each other. not to mention, cecil suffers from the same thing he pointed out to mark - "you see things through one viewpoint, and won't see them any other way". they're two complete opposites who do the exact same thing, i feel like it was always a powder keg about to blow with them, it just finally happened

Michael McPhee

The Pharaoh

Cecil was doing the most with the device shit in his skull then preceded to have the dead shit beat his ass but Mark needs to understand people can change Im team Mark

Reckless Company

I really don't think the mark vs Cecil thing is a 50/50 argument mark is in the right 100% morally speaking cecil lost all moral high ground when he implanted a weapon inside bros brain then lied about it for years and using the reanimen to attack him was the final straw also immortals a sycophant

Jjb

Mark shows his loyalty by trying to defend Earth, he would've rather died than let his Dad take over. Then to pay him pack he puts a weapon in his head?

sosa

Batman creates contingency plans but only the worst versions of him are stupid enough to actively poke the bear

Denickart

Cecil is a necessary evil because yes you sometimes have to make very unethical decisions to save the world, but putting that thing in marks head was too far. Mark showed no signs of hostility or doing anything that would warrant needing any counter measures. What’s worse is that he did it without him knowing so who knows what other shit he could’ve put in him.

Nota-kun

I think it started when Cecil implanted a weapon inside his brain and hired a serial killer scientist but that's just me tho

Jjb

i KNEWWW sheera was gonna be in marks side out of all of yall

Skye Brooklyn

And idk where people get the idea that mark forgave his dad that was never stated Cecil is morally indefensible btw good ideas bad execution

Jjb

No way Sheera is about Cecil putting a deterrent inside mark, Cecil quite literally proved him right when Mark was about to his powers to hurt him because he didn’t agree to his ethics

Tabbs

I hate his example of batman to the jla being like cecil to mark. Yes batman has things like that for all his fellow heroes, but if used his contigency that aggresivley on superman while he was of his on mind, superman would never trust batman again

Chezdad

Ye bro implanting a weapon in a 17 year olds head and then telling his mom your gonna protect him is top tier behavior

Jjb

Right and once mark is gone you know your greatest asset what about the rest of the viltrumites on the way. Also mark put his life on the line twice against his father and the other woman vilttrumite. Cecil has every right to want a contingency plan but he went about it wrong and is just creating the thing he fears

jaahman

I always love the arguments for Mark / Cecil. Personally I’m with Mark by a near margin, Cecil a whole slave owner lmao

Tenroku

I personally think Mark secretly feels guilty about his desire to forgive his father, and he's projecting that by over correcting and taking the exact opposite stance in his beliefs. Season 1 Mark wasn't as hell bent on throwing people in prison and making sure people suffer consequences, he was much more empathetic and focused on helping people first. I think Mark's interaction with his dad really stunted his growth as a person. Cecil is a whole different story. While it makes sense for Cecil to have protection from potential dangers to the world, his need to control everyone not only messed up his partnership with Mark, but it also fractured the Guardians. So far this season has been top notch for me. The writer are killing it.

Jaden Coleman

Ouuuu I knew the post ep recap was gonna be intense

Alec Johnson

Nah I’m #teamCecil, Cecil told him to go home multiple times before they even entered the “white room”. Mark pressed him and kept yelling and followed him into the “white room”. Cecil then told him to go home again and Mark kept pressing him. It started all because of Mark. Cecil literally told him multiple times to go home, what was Cecil supposed to do.

Mari

You know an episode is good when the Fandom is in open debate

Ed

#TeamCecil

Lūthér Hölâyèãhmé

Mann idc what anybody says Cecil is in the wrong, f that weak ahh backstory

traplikemaxxx

Bro did lupa call roshi his real name? 💀😭 nah invincible goated

Eren J

Ex-fucking-actly

Tremaine

YEA NGL CECIL GOT IT

snowwy

Mark immediately fought back against his dad when he told him his plans, and then he would’ve rather died than even lie about enslaving earth when anissa pulled up. That should show his loyalty to earth doing shit like putting a weapon in him is only gonna push him towards becoming what you fear.

Anthony Leon

Yeah. He'd be an awful director of the Global Defense Agency if he didn't at least take precautions when Mark's dad humbled the whole planet and levelled Chicago.

King of New York

Having a contingency against mark incase he goes bad in itself isn’t bad thing. It’s the complete breach of trust that Cecil missed imo. If he would’ve simply been upfront with mark regarding the sound thing, I’m sure mark would’ve agreed to it voluntarily, especially if Cecil used Omni man’s rampage as the reason for it. The fact that he didn’t and instead secretly had it implanted is why I think Cecil is in the wrong. You just gave the most powerful person a reason to hate you

AsuraTM

It's fuck Cecil just like it's fuck Amanda Waller lol

Jaden Coleman

I don't know if y'all peeped but that black GDA dude is the same guy who started was over the Atom Eve project. That's why he stepped down from the GDA.

Robert Smith

Dumbass reactors cause they disagree with you and have different perspectives lmao

Jaden Coleman

I’m on sheera side ngl

Eren J

I choose to remain neutral and watch the chaos🤣🤣. Both sides are valid

Tha Hoeless one

Last thing I'm gonna say is that Sheera and Lupa said that Cecil should have saved the sonic weapon until Mark tried to attack Cecil.....that is EXACTLY what happened. Mark lunged to attack Cecil and he activated it. I already typed a ton on the last episode on why I think Cecil is right so imma just relax now lol, this season is great. The fact that there's so much discussion shows the quality of the writing. There's a lot of nuance in the adaptation too. Last episode when immortal yelled "WHAT!?" in the background when Mark said that the declaration of independence got stolen, it was because Immortal himself was Abe Lincoln lmao. When Cecil was calling Mark a hypocrite before getting choked out, I think he was referring to how Mark is trying to give his dad redemption but isn't allowing Darkwing or Sinclair a chance because he doesn't have a personal connection to them.

King of New York

Ngl if my literal only job is "keep Earth safe" and the kid of a guy I thought was an ally but who recently slaughtered thousands of people is now the single most powerful being on the planet, fuck yeah I'm doing whatever I can to make sure I've got options if he goes bad.

Beagle

That opening fight scene shows if the team had more time and no production issues they can make some great animation

PJ Rivera

I can understand where Cecil is coming from I mean Mark dad could have easily taken over the earth

Leon

It’s interesting to see the different perspectives you guys have. It seems like Sheera can see more from Mark’s perspective and Cecil definitely went too far with the torture. Whereas it seems like Roshi can somewhat see where Cecil is coming from. Cecil’s decision to let Sinclair and Darkwing work for him isn’t necessarily the wrong decision. Keep in mind, even if they are working for him. That doesn’t mean they’re free. They’re forced to work for him to avoid rotting in a cell. So that brings up the question. Is it better to have them under 24/7 surveillance working to help people or rotting away in a cell forever.

Adam Lawson

Yooo Lupa woulda shot Doc Seismic talking bout some “ Stop concentrating!” 😭🤣

Matt

Reaction already off to a good ass start. I knew roshi wasnt about to be like all these other dumbass reactors. Completely logical and make complete sense. Mark is just a overgrown child and a major hypocrite. Can't wait until yall see the future episodes and season 4

ErendGoat

Mark isn’t wrong but he’s been so childish and stubborn in his view point that he won’t allow to think of any alternative bc he’s so fucking scarred by what his dad did to him and the hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Cecil while not wrong chose to act in fear, which he isn’t wrong to be, but he led mark to a room where he could have a better shot at subduing mark. Once mark had seen the other bots no shit he got even more riled up. It was a shitshow on both ends

Moisty Justice

This comment is explained to perfection

oba ogun

Mark was looking very omniman in that fight 👀

marvin johnson

cecile time lives in the reality of humans marks stuff only works if u got super powers

zoltar

Cecil is only right about making the reanimated army , they came in clutch and its more of marks ppl out there but putting a bomb in marks head was wrong , unlike Omni man mark has almost been beaten to death damn near every episode because he doesn’t want hurt anyone and holds back , that should of earned Cecil’s trust by now showing mark actually puts his life on the line constantly

Arell

Im with Cecil here, he's got one job and he'll be damned if he doesn't perform it to the best of his ability. I get marks side but people like Cecil are needed

GigaDirt

People are too quick to attack Cecil they need a reminder of what Batman does the moment he meets a new member of the Justice League

Omar Bautista

ahh i can smell the divide in the comments TEAM CECIL

Skye Brooklyn

Team Mark here gang. Fuck Cecil lol.

MonarchXIII

Objectively speaking both sides make sense, can't shit on either. I just don't like how people diminish the fact that Cecil does indeed think about the safety of the world. To us we know Mark has the best intentions, but it's like batman having a contingency for the whole JL, but Mark being the biggest problem on earth right now. Mark was willing to fight his incredible strong father for Earth, which should showcase just how dedicated he is to Earth, but I get it from Cecil.

Aniki Pft

I've said it before I'll say it again. If you're cool with Batman having contingency plans for the Justice League you should be good with Cecil having them.

Jamaal Ellison

🗣‼️ louder

Yellow_Flash

Ahh yes, more peak!

Paul Reyes

Talk to em 🗣‼️ Mark cant just go around doing whatever tf he wants whenever he wants. Mf lucky he half viltrumite 😤

Yellow_Flash

Cecile right for having a contingency his only job is to protect earth and save people even if he’s the one that dies but he shouldn’t have put a weapon in marks head and shouldn’t have used it until mark actually turned or went to attack him cecil broke the trust

Jamie

Cecil is logically right but morally wrong and Mark is vice versa. Just looking at the numbers Sinclair and Darkwing can benefit Earth as a whole but it sends a bad message when you get the help of people that have caused nothing but chaos.

Devin B

I get Cecils contingency plan, but I think his execution was wrong. Batman has plans for all of JL, especially Superman. The difference is Batman doesn't use Kryptonite against Superman anytime they disagree. Even then, he has counter measures to stop his own contingency plans. Also, Superman knows about Batmans contingency plans for him. They established that trust. Cecil has done none of that. He could have done this better without alienating the 1 Viltrumite that's on your side, who almost died twice saving earth. Cecil is creating his own fear.

Marlia

I'd say this was my favorite episode thus far

Seon

The episode it self has been out for a week

Jack in the box

LMAO

_Kiing

I JUST KNOW TOMORROWS DROPS ARE GONNA BE GOOD.

Raider

Cecils a pussy

Jamie

might just be your device lol

SimplyCamo

I just noticed this is an hour long, lemme go get the popcorn

John Lewis

How do you know anything it literally just got posted 😂

KingMarkoIII

Y’all save me from boredom just now, I was looking around trying to see something while I sm*** and yesss it is

Claudio

Drop the location😂

Tremaine

LETS GOOO

Tenroku

Fuck you nd Cecil XD

Michael Kaiser

Team Mark

ShaquanVirse

CECIL IS RIGHT FIGHT ME😹

_Kiing

It’s time chat

Miquon Jackson

Is anyone else not getting audio?

Aidan Serna

#TeamCecil

Jamaal Ellison

Fuck all of y’all on team mark im on team Cecil sorry not sorry lmao

Cheesecake

Divisive? What makes you say that?..

John Lewis

Got my popcorn I'm ready to read the comment section 🤓

Krype

Yehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Hasnain Khan

Thank you

Arell

YESSSIRRRRRRRR

Shawn simpson

letsssgooo

yasmin

I'm excited to see who they side with

bleach

Uploading cobra Kai before this was insane btw

Jamie

Finally

Danger Tomato

W

Jamie