I'm Pausing Patreon Charges (Unlisted video for Patrons)

Jack Conte (Patreon co-founder) wrote an insightful response to all this; I'm impressed but remain concerned about the conflict of interest posed by the VC money which is also a big investor in Stripe, a key payment processor that would have directly benefited from the now cancelled fee structure. I'm back on board with all my pledges. Hopefully Patreon will be stable and efficient enough that it's easy to continue to recommend as I had been for years.

Aaron J Peterson

Actually, I’m going a step futher and upping my pledge because I appreciated your response to this issue. Good job.

Bryan Hakey

Great news! Patreon has apologized and reversed it’s decision. Can I be the first to say I’m happy to be back. :)

Bryan Hakey

Love your integrity Destin, but I still want to support you! Any opportunities to do that in other ways until this gets sorted out?

You're a good man, Destin.

Chris Hinkle

Thanks for the graphic, didn't know I could laugh and feel sad at the same time. All the infographics from that post made me so mad. I also "enjoyed" the creator complaint they shared that neglected to address currency conversions and left the pledge amount in US dollars and the creator received amount in British pounds to show a larger numerical difference.

I want to continue to support your work. What you are doing is important. I'll look for another opportunity, outside of Patreon, to continue that support. Praying that you and your family have a blessed Christmas!

I applaud your sense of honor and fairness. There are three entities who can absorb the fees, the creator, Patreon, or me. I prefer it be Patreon, will accept it if it has to be me, definitely don't think it should be the creator. I'm loyal to the people I support, not the platform they work from. If you go elsewhere, I follow.

Don Rideaux-Crenshaw

As a creator i rather have my patron pay 1$ a month and take the fees on my side. This not a job, nor a salary. I want them to give us he choice on how to charge those fee. Let creator choose if they want to pay the fees of their patrons. Thx for pausing, i found it was a great idea so i paused my 46$ a motnh too :P Thx for the content , your support and mainly your common sens.

I think that is cool of you to hit pause on this Destin. I've used this platform to support creators i like since Hank Green's Subbable merged into Patreon. I enjoy spreading my pledges across a large number of creators rather than giving more to a few creators. Having a fee applied to each $1 pledge is pretty disheartening, so i'm going to cancel my pledges. Once/if this new structure is retooled for folks like me who want to support many creators we like, I'll jump back on board. Edit/Update: Hooray, they walked back on the fee's and i've re-upped my pledge.

Andrew Young

The fees really hurt us $1 supporters so I canceled all my pledges, hopefully a small vote for the many other solutions people have proposed. But this is probably all about the large venture capital money injections into Patreon and not much revenue going back to them.

Here is a good analysis - maybe they will come to their senses with the loss of business, or someone else will step up an provide a similar service with saner fees. <a href="https://kav2k.github.io/patreon_letter/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://kav2k.github.io/patreon_letter/</a>

j-beda

My point is: be reasonable. Take 10%, fine, but allow me to reward the creators I value so much in my life (Destin, included...)

Patreon is a business just like every single creator you all subscribe to. If they can't service their stakeholders .. guess what? All those creators need to find new homes. To Patreon: you f'ing Muppets! Seriously you made this change without first allowing every single creator you have on books to explain the change to their subscribers?!? Lesson learned for whomever made that gaff. I expect Patreon to make a profit. I expect the vast majority of my donation to reach the creator. Guys and gals ... work it out. Give me options. Option (1) Paypal with exorbitant transaction fees. Options (2) A pool wire transfer and you take your cut. Option (3) We all buy gold and physically present that gold on the steps leading up to your office.

It's a 2.9% + $0.35 increase per pledge.

Matt L

From what I read on their help docs, it seems that Patrons will largely see a small increase in cost. Myself for example, I pay once per month. So all of my charges are put onto a single charge, so a single credit card "swipe" and therefore not TONS of smaller charges. I think this might make me pay an additional $0.87 per month. I am doing well for myself, so I'm personally okay with this change. "Patreon reduces processing fees by batching charges at the beginning of each month. For example, if a patron is paying more than one creator each month, Patreon only charges the patron once for all of the pledges. This reduces processing fees by reducing the total number of transactions, and the lower fee is split among the creators." <a href="https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204606125-How-do-you-calculate-fees-" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204606125-How-do-you-calculate-fees-</a>

Clark A.

Tbh despite all the blurb they talk about here on the update at the bottom <a href="https://blog.patreon.com/updating-patreons-fee-structure">https://blog.patreon.com/updating-patreons-fee-structure</a> ... how they're saving the creator fees, using the excuse that creators want up front payment - it would be just as viable to let people subscribe at any point in the month and force a single billing on the 1st as you do now but note FORCE so they can't sub, view all your stuff then quit without paying that 1st payment. Delayed payments are easy for them to do and avoid their silly graphic about fees every other day. Everyone wins. Instead they basically move the fee to patrons AND add a .38c charge PER TRANSACTION which could be multiple times per month per patreon you support. 38c is nothing on a $25 sub but on $1 subs it's 38% extra! I modified their BS infographic here to show the difference this actually makes :| <a href="https://imgur.com/a/TUwMt" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://imgur.com/a/TUwMt</a> Whilst I support changing a platform to be viable, clearly there are options they haven't taken in favour of this one - it's weak and it's making people leave on a Fine Bros scale. RIP

Invisible Jazz

I'm here because I think your content is awesome. I happen to have space in my budget to accomodate the service fees, so I'm just riding along. But I do think that this is the sort of change that Content creators should have been made aware of way in advance, so they could make plans with their patreons before shit hit the fan. Because this is the sort of change that could make patreons slice off content creators. And while a little less people paying a little more money probably evens our, the renown Patreon may suffer from this. And that would be terrible.

Emil Kampp

The thing that hurts the most about this is how single-player the ecosystem is. Even those of us who want to protest by dropping support for our creators have to consider if we're willing to hurt the people we're supporting to do that. It's not like we can shift to the competing system.

I have also completely stopped my donations because of this. I hope to jump back on when/if Patreon fixes the problem. In the mean time if you make any other content on this particular subject can I ask you to make it open to the public? If you don’t people like us won’t be able to see what you have to say on any changes that are happening. Thank you for your concatenation while we work through this problem.

Bryan Hakey

Jazz, as patrons we have little sway over what Patreon does. Complaining on the Internet is constant, but showing you mean it with the removal of pledges is walking the talk in a big way. I will gladly come back to my supported projects if Patreon stops this, but if not, I've encouraged all of the creators I back to find alternatives where I can fund them. Basically, I can't tolerate paying almost 50 cents in fees to give somebody a dollar, and I can't afford larger subs to everyone I want. Sure, I could rotate them around, but that sort of hassle is not something Patreon should be putting on us.

Aesire

Thanks for doing this Destin. I was one of those that dropped my support to you, because I feel that unfortunately the only way I have a voice about these changes is to vote with my wallet. Looking at my december pledges, I gave $69 to roughly 50 different creators for 62 posts. The new system would mean $23.70 in fees. A 34% increase in cost oin my end to balance out the roughly 2-10% loss in processing fees (number pulled from their blog post: <a href="https://blog.patreon.com/updating-patreons-fee-structure/?_ga=2.178092773.1718902466.1512679733-777353567.1504518302)on">https://blog.patreon.com/updating-patreons-fee-structure/?_ga=2.178092773.1718902466.1512679733-777353567.1504518302)on</a> your end. Or if you go by the email they sent out 7-15% (which may be accounting for Patreons 5% cut, even though that is not how the email is worded). In any event, I love Smarter Every Day, but I'm going to look for other ways to show my support for the amazing work you do.

I changed mine from $1 per video to $3 with a limit of one.

Most of us are in the $1-2 per video for multiple creators. At $0.35 per transaction, that is upward of 35% plus the other fees. Is that going to Patreon or the Credit Card clearing house? One solution would be like the PayPal model. Allow Patrons to run a balance in their account like a pre-loaded debit account. Then pay the creators out of that and keep 5% for Patreon. So as a Patron, I could load my account with $100 and get charged the $0.35 + 1.3% fee on $100 (say $1.65 for $100). Then say I pay out $30 a month to creators. After 3 months, Patreon re-charges and fills my account with another $100 so now my balance is ~$110. BTW, that is how my Kansas Turnpike Account works.

It took me several reads through their documentation to understand what they are actually doing. I'm not, in principle, opposed to fees when and if they are reasonable, but this fee structure is absurd. I currently support roughly 30 creators with amounts ranging from $1-$10 (but mostly $1). In the past Patreon bundled this into a single monthly transaction, which made it easy to budget and track my "edutainment" expenses. Now, it appears Patreon will charge my card with 30 separate transactions per month, each with their own $0.35 plus 2.9% fee. So all those $1 pledges just became $1.38. Worse yet, it increases waste. Under the old plan, I would pay $1, and the creator might get $0.85. ($0.15 lost to fees). Now, I will pay $1.38, and the creator will get $0.95. ($0.43 lost to fees). Patreon's primary advantage was the bundling and central management of these transactions. They could use that bundling to reduce credit card fees, but they have chosen to abandon that path. Without that, there's no advantage for me to use them over PayPal or whatever other service the creator might prefer. For the moment, I'm not going to delete my pledges because I don't want the creators to suffer Patreon's mistake in the short run, but I'm hoping they move on quickly. I await news from each of my favorite creators on alternate ways to support them.

Chilling while they figure out how to undo this mess is smart. It's a shame so many people have bailed on creators almost immediately without letting the creators try and respond :|

Invisible Jazz

The model didn't bother me, as long as that does mean the content creators get a larger slice of the cake; however, I do understand the issue regarding the $0.35 fee. It would be smarter to get all donations at once in a single transaction precisely to minimize such fee. I won't change my support right now (I'll cancel one from an inactive channel just as a wake up call to Patreon. Dustin, if you have access to Patreon's founder, the suggestion that the donations get bundled together in a single debit would probably minimize the bad taste that is being left in supporter's mouths...

What a nice little Christmas present from Patreon. The email I received sounded like something from Congress, clear as mud. Like Congress, we know that when we do hear from them, it's not good for us and morfs "new and improved" into "SOS and you're screwed." I'd rather send you an annual check than let these clowns milk me like the cash cow they think I am. I like your content. I want to support that but Patreon, not so much. I'll go to your website and get your contact info, then make arrangements to send you funds other than Patreon.

KC

You're awesome.

I'm really sorry this is happening to you guys. Sadly I will be canceling my contributions. It's ridiculous to pay nearly 50% of my pledge straight to Patreon. If you have Venmo I would gladly shoot you $1 for every video you put out.

I pay multiple creator a dollar each. The 35 cents per video are killing me. It effectively charges me 37.9% worth of fees. I'm going to give them a little time to fix this or for a competitor to come up. I would rather manually setup some sort of bill pay to creators before ever spending a 37% banking fee.

Cody Blotske

I hope it gets straightened out soon. I appreciate the pause, and I cancelled my support for 2 creators I support who have "day jobs" so I could give Patreon feedback about this change. I won't touch those whose sole livelihood is creating.

Kristy

But Patreon doesn't charge the fee per transaction, they charge per pledge. If you support two creators, they'll charge the $0.35 twice, but only pay $0.35 once

You're a class act, Destin. Keep being awesome. I won't pull any of my support right now. 2.9% + $0.35/transaction is basically exactly what credit card processors charge. This is just an actual per-pledge fee Patreon has to pay being passed on to us, so I understand their side of it, but transferring it from creators to pledgers does mean they're bumping total incoming revenue up, so I can also see how it's a bit of a money grab. Seems like creators using Patreon aren't unhappy with it.. pledgers are the revenue stream.. you (Patreon) shouldn't anger them. Looks like dumb move.

adfaklsdjf

Thanks for all that you do. The fee structure seems pretty unworkable for somebody like me that chucks in a dollar at a time... almost 40c on a dollar for me and 5c per dollar for you in fees. Looking forward to future updates on this issue.

Joshua Murrah

Sorry Dustin, I'm cancelling support to you and all other creators I'm pledging to on Patreon in protest. Jack Conte is *not* a good guy, he's a rent-seeking executive trying to unjustly enrich himself on the backs of creators like you.

Aaron J Peterson

$0.35 + 2.9% = 37.9% of a $1 pledge, which is totally unacceptable. Obviously. And it sounds like you're also charging creators 5%? So you're taking money coming and going. Pretty crappy. Here is the reasonable suggestion: * recurring charges are incredibly convenient for Patreon, so no fee charged to patrons, regardless of amount pledged and number of pledges, ever. One time donations might charge a flat fee. Exposing cc fees to holders is never okay. * 5% taken from creators * Patreon, as a simple fascilitator rather than evil, money-grubbing middleman, and lacks the merit of being either creator or patron, absorbs the cc fees and humbly accepts the remainder to keep the site up and pay a small number of employees reasonable salaries. No rent-seeking executive class at all, no constantly growing company seeking ever greater riches.

Aaron J Peterson

Hi Destin &amp; Community. I don't have a problem with moving the 2.9% fee from the creators to the patrons. I DO have a problem with adding 0.35$ PER PLEDGE for no apparent reason, since most of my pledges are 1-3$. I have written to the patreon "Community Happines Team" and explained, that I will reduce ALL my pledges by 0.35$, knowing this mostly hurts the creators. I hope patreon comes to their senses about this part of the fee, which just seems unfair.

Thanks David.

Smarter Every Day

As far as I can tell, Patreon's cut doesn't change. They are just pushing the processing fees to the patrons rather than to the creators.

I understand the need for Patreon to make money but this seems to be a convoluted way to do so with an explanation that doesn't make sense. Why can't Patreon process my pledges as a whole, once a month, then distribute that to the creators. I don't mind paying the 35 cents a month for the transaction, I hate the thought of paying it per pledge, per video.

Michael Steeves

the communication from Patreon was really poor. basically sending out a Mail telling you that they'll bill more next month. I'd preferred an 'Opt-in' for this (maybe even per creator) but clearly Patreon wasn't interested in any input from Patrons so I really appreciate that you're reaching out Destin

Uwe

Destin, I'm not going to cancel right now, and I appreciate you suspending Patreon this month. I'd still like to support you, and preferably I'd like to send you something this month. I know it's probably not the done thing to ask this on Patreon, but under the circumstances, I'm going to anyway... Can I (and anyone else interested) send you something outwith the Patreon system? PayPal, or something similar?

Derek Scollon

Hey Destin, I signed in to cancel my support due to patreons rediculous new fee structure. This post kept me from doing so - for now... I hope patreon will reconsider their decision. Best regards David

I support several creators here on patreon. I'm going to see for a month maybe 2 to check how bad this is. Although I hope i can keep supporting every creator I'm currently supporting.

Anton

It feels like someone thought they'd be clever and say "hey we have lots of smaller donors, we can make 40% more (I know it's fees, but the throughput will still go up 40%) by switching the side the fees are paid on. Great let's do it.." This is going to hurt a lot of creators.

Simply put, Patreon is imposing a mandatory fee on Patrons, and to make things worse, it's a % fee plus a Flat fee per transaction. This is a stupid decision for two reasons: 1. Imposing fee on the supporters is a thing no one wants. Apparently neither the Patrons nor the Creator wants such a structure. 2. Flat fee makes small pledges not worthwhile, but in reality, many creators rely on lots and lots of small pledges rather than some large pledges. In their posts, they severely underestimated the number of small pledges that will stop once such a fee structure is implemented.

Vic Jang

Thanks Destin, this change hurts the lower tier patrons more than anyone, and a 37.9% increase on a $1 donation just isn't going to fly with me I'm afraid. I understand the why's, but I'm afraid this will have me moving my support to other platforms. I hope you can get something sorted.

Destin — as a previous comment put it: classy move (as with your reply to me when I wrote about the Patreon boycott issue [the one that is not at all related to Smarter Every day]. Good on you for just hanging in there until Patreon has it all sorted out. That I know of, I haven't received any email from them discussing a billing change — this is the first I've heard about it. I'll follow your lead and just wait a bit to see what happens. Unless it turns out to be an alarming increase, I'm with commenter Johannes, above: I'd rather see Patreon survive than die out. It's quite a resource.

Mike Arst

Compared to Google Play/ITunes, Patreon took a smaller cut until now, so I was wondering if they could sustain the 5% anyway... seems they can't. I rather see Patreon survive than die like other services before

I appreciate this. I'll forestall unsubscribing for now, in hopes that Patreon modifies this new structure. You just keep being awesome.

Lorena

While this is all true, a lot of the extra fees you’re now paying were previously being lost out of the pledge by creators. So you could lower your pledge and they’d still receive about what they were before. The maths doesn’t quite add up based on the percentages given in the email, but hopefully things shake out a bit before it settles down.

Andrew Herron

Thanks Destin, I appreciate all you do. One good suggestion I saw on another patreon is to up your per video charge then set it to only allow it to be charged once a month. That way it is equivalent to a monthly charge. Good Luck.

Hrm. This is... unfortunate. It impacts people like me, who like to put $1 into a couple of different creators, the most. I just did the maths... $1.00 -&gt; $1.379 $2.00 -&gt; $2.408 $5.00 -&gt; $5.495 Number of $1 pledges: 7 monthly + 25 (maximum) per creation Number of $2 pledges: 2 monthly Number of $5 pledges: 4 per month + 1 (maximum) per creation Current Monthly Charges (1*7) + (2*2) + (5*4) Minimum: $31 (if none of the “per creation” members create anything) (1*(25+7)) + (2*2) + (5*(4+1)) Maximum: $61 (if all of the “per creation” members meet monthly cap) Monthly Charges With Changes (1.379*7) + (2.408*2) + (5.495*4) Minimum: $36.449 (if none of the “per creation” members create anything) Increase: $5.449 (+17.5%) (1.379*(25+7)) + (2.408*2) + (5.495*(4+1)) Maximum: $76.419 (if all of the “per creation” members meet monthly cap) Increase: $15.419 (+25.3%) Real World Example: November 2017 $48 pledge 13 per month totaling $31 13 creations totaling $17 Turns into… 13 per month totaling $36.449 13 creations totaling $22.043 $58.492 total pledges ($10.492 increase or +21.86%) I don’t know what I’m going to do yet. Part of me hopes they’ll come up with a different solution. If they don’t, however, I’m going to have to look at how to reduce costs on my end. The biggest way to cut will be to change up the “per creation” pledges, as those will hit me with the most fees. Ideally, I wouldn’t just completely drop any creators. But, honestly, looking over my pledges - there are a few “$1 per creation” members I’d drop and a couple I would consolidate into a larger pledge but putting it at a max of 1 per month ($3 @ 1 time per month versus $1 @ 3 times per month). We’ll see how this goes.

Russell Uresti

Destin, you make awesome videos doing cool stuff and I will find ways to support that endeavor! Patreon's decision to change up fees to make up for a complicated payment structure is a weak decision (supported by the current exodus). I'm joining the exodus to put my money where my mouth is. Patreon needs to reconsider, add alternative options at a minimum, and find ways to drive that bs rate way down. Continue doing great things, keep the communications open, find alternative revenue streams we can keep the money flowing with.

First of all, Destin, I appreciate your communication and willingness to stop charges until you figured out what was happening. Classy move, much respect. After reading up on the change, I understand that they think that they're helping creators out by discouraging $1 pledges by hitting them with larger fees. I have no clue what percentage of Patreon supporters across the board donate $1 per video to creators, but I'm sure it adds up, and conversely hurts when they make sudden changes and everyone bails. Personally, I'd rather donate something, regardless of how seemingly insignificant, to show support. All of this to say, I'm not happy about the change, and personally will continue supporting, but I think it kind of sucks how Patreon pulled the rug out from everyone with insufficient warning or communication.

John P.

Cheers man

Yeah, not a good structure for $1/video stuff. Will stick with ya here if you stay, but if you find somewhere else, well, just let us know ;)

JamesBergCanada

Was about to cancel and then saw Dustin's email. 2.9%+$0.35 sort of breaks the current trend of $1 pledges. Patreon uses Stripe who publishes 2.9%+$0.30 fee so Patreon is only taking a small $0.05 margin here. I think Patreon needs to iterate a bit here... Maybe preloading a balance at discount?

I read the Patreon explainer about it. I understand the desire to clear up confusion with the current system where new patrons of those who have monthly rather than per video pledges get charged both when they sign up (regardless of the day of the month they sign up) and again on the first of the next month in order for people to not get access to patron only content without actually paying. I like to support multiple creators, but personally prefer those who I support with a monthly flat pledge rather than a per video. Makes my budgeting easier, and I pledge more per month to them than I do to those who collect per video. If Patreon stays with the proposed changes, I will be even more inclined to pledge to those who are per month rather than per video/podcast. When all the fees were combined once a month it made more sense in a "minimize the amount paid to the credit card company". If it's a fee per video, it just means more to the credit card fees. And that's not good for creators or Patreon. So I still want to support you and other creators. But I'll up my pledge to you if you change to monthly rather than per video. And continue to support those who already collect per month with a slightly larger pledge than I do those who collect per video/podcast.

Whatever the platform, I'll still support. Seeing the news, I was surprised to see that for every $1 supporter, there'd be a 38% fee. In the grand scheme of things, if it costs $1.38 to support a video instead of $1, then so be it. It just feels excessive. If they wanted to charge 3% and allow me to pre-load my account all in one charge, I'm fine with that too. It would be like buying "patron credits" that I can then deal out to the creators I like.

Your the best. I was just coming to your page to ask if there was some alternative way to support you as I don’t know if I’ll be sticking with Patreon. I have a lot of $1 pledges and so the fees are like a third of my pledge. At that point I’d rather just find some way to send the money directly.

Bryan Hakey

Thanks, Destin. I saw the news and was reconsidering whether I should stay on, but your post has reminded me of why I was eager to support you in the first place.

Thanks Destin! Super classy. Hope this all get sorted out.

Boter Bug

It's cool man. Sticking with you. A few cents here or there is not going to keep me from supporting the creators I appreciate.

Robert Sanges

Like I said... Patreon is a good will engine, and you guys aren't letting it run lean for sure.

Smarter Every Day

FYI: <a href="https://www.pretty-terrible.com/funny-money-patreon-style" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.pretty-terrible.com/funny-money-patreon-style</a> Solid write up with the math

Steve

Hey Destin, it's cool that you're pausing everything until you know what's going on. But I just wanted to let you know that you'll always have my support no matter the fees! The important part to me is that you're getting more of my dontation and that's more than worth a few cents to me. Keep up the awesome content! Have a safe flight!

Yukigamine

I suggested a cryptocurrency option to the team a while back. It's going to be interesting to see what they do.

Smarter Every Day

I totally get it man. Let's sit tight for now. I'm hoping they figure this out quickly. I don't want to make decisions that lead to permanence based on temporary emotions. Seriously though, THANK YOU.

Smarter Every Day

+Patreon: Can you just bill my fees to this goober? :P

Steve

I'm with you man, not dropping the support, lets hope patreon figures this out.

Class as always. I'll still around! ;)

The problem is that Patreon only charges my credit card once a month. So why am I paying the 35 cent fee per post/per video on many creators? That doesn't make sense. I would be 100% cool with paying 2.9% + 35 cents ONCE PER MONTH when my card is charged. But 35 cents per video, over lots and lots of videos (I currently support 19 channels and am ending them all) does not make sense to me. When Patreon gives me the ability to pay one fee per month, I will. I'll donate directly to creators in the mean time.

@Destin, would you be willing to post the email address you use for PayPal, Cash or Venmo? I totally agree with your idea of waiting this out, but I'm also cool with gifting you the $$ directly. I'm not about to quit my patronage(old sense of the word) but I might be one of the folks in the Patreon boat that jumps.

Jon Krape

You're definitely not losing my support. But way to go handling this in a super cool and calm manner.

Zach S. Banks

You’re a good goober! (btw I’m happy to pay the fees ☺️)

Adam Wishneusky

Met Jack Conte at a VidCon Creator chat and he is really awesome and cool dude. He cares a lot about people. In it for the long game all the way, Destin. I look forward to the videos! 👍

Matthew J Palka

I’m really looking forward to the domino video. Thanks for being cool and not falling into the Internet rage culture. Good luck on your travel.

Austin Burnham