Hitman Doc Preview & Guest Doc Announcement [July Patron Show]

I’m waaay late to the party, but what I want to say about the ads - patreon get a preview link early anyway. So let’s not show any ads there but once the video is public - monetize it. I’m fine with that if you think it will open new possibilities for our communityB

Tohir Tillyaev

I like the idea of having adverts after a week or so of the video being public. It means the majority of the core patreon viewer base will not see them but you'll still generate the revenue that can help make new stuff :)

Eddie

Absolutely fine if you turn on YouTube ads - I contribute each month because I want to pay you directly for the content you produce (I think of it like investing in a company I believe in)! Even if the Adsense only meant another $500 a month that’s still more for you to work with so it’s better for us as we get better and better content! Anything that doesn’t impact the editorial is fine by me. And turning off the Patreon $ amount makes sense to me too, so go ahead with both and see how it goes!

Mike

Pre role ads sound fine, but it does make me more inclined to reduce the amount that I donate each month as I know you have more sources of income (probably a good thing in the long run).

Martin Hannigan

If it's YouTube's ads I'd be fine with it since I pay for premium and wouldn't see them in any case. If it's sponsored ads I'd be fine with them just as long as it's at the start of the docs.

Raymond

You do what you gotta do but if you go the "having ads" route, I can't back NoClip anymore. That's pretty much a deal breaker for me. A big reason I've backed NoClip for as long as I have is because it seems like it's the only place where I can just get straight content and don't have to put up with pre-rolls, mid-rolls, an/or end roll ads. I don't wanna be marketed to, or pushed to buy something, I just wanna watch an interesting doc/video on my favorite hobby, that's it. At the end of the day you gotta support yourself and others, so if you go that route, no hard feelings but I really hope you don't. Kinda Funny and others went the ad route and it just ruined them for me. Ads break up the flow and take the viewer/listener out of the doc/show/etc

Nick Grugin

I'm down to whatever helps you produce more videos - after all, that what everyone is here for. I suggest you test the ads in many different ways (after a week/five days/24hours/immediately), and see what amount you get. I honestly do not believe in mass exodus in case you decide to do it on a permanent basis, and even if there are going to be people who'd decide to leave, you'd be able to cover those holes with ads money. But again, I don't think there will be a lot of people leaving because of that, since, well, everyone understands that you need money to support this.

Michael Siyatskyy

Also appreciate the internal reports for patrons on finances for Patreon funding since you'll hide the amount on the main page (which I think is a good idea anyway)

Incredibly excited for the Hitman doc and for Chris' guest doc. I support People Make Games too, so awesome crossover! And I love the Total War series. Onto the ads topic. Lots of good points in the comments that I've summed up and agree with, but an important overall point: - no ads were promised originally and love the ideal of it - but not the end of the world, especially if it substantially adds revenue for Noclip - But! Only pre-roll, no interupt ads in the middle of docs - preferably a week after the docs have gone out to give patrons fair time watch, or a month, or only 'legacy docs' - hard thing to turn on and off as looks wishy-washy and taint the brand - plus potential for ads to lead the content, especially if you bring someone on and need YouTube revenue to keep them - Sounds like a fair few people would stop being a patron if you did ads, defeats the purpose of doing it as you'll lose money from Patreon - Could look more suss than ever in regards to doing marketing for games in the docs by having game ads for similar games before the docs (do you have any control over that?) - Could maybe even lose views because of the ads and change in brand ideals... The thing is, I'm sure the amount window your YouTube rep showed was appealing, but also probably the best outcome for ads on the NoClip videos, so: - Do their numbers account for ad blockers? - Do those numbers account for people skipping the ads? (As reading recent material from Google, sounded like they wouldn't charge advertisers unless people didn't skip ads, and I don't know if I know anyone who doesn't lol) - Probably assumed you'd have ads on for the first week of videos being published when likely a majority of views come for your videos, which most patrons I've seen comment say they'd prefer (one week without ads) - Probably presumed you'd have ads in every way possible, pre-roll, interupts and end, which most patrons are against So there's a few questions there in what the YouTube revenue would actually look like after you take in all the consideration of patrons. If despite all these concerns and following the wishes of the patrons it still brought in a substantial amount of extra funding (enough to cover losing patrons too), then sure. But after reading everyone's comments and thoughts and thinking about more myself, I don't think ads are the right way to go (and at first I was like, yeah fuck it just do the ads). I think with the new community manager and new ideas/elements coming into play as you alluded to for Noclip, I'd hope the patron funding will go up regardless.

For me, the financial independence through Patreon was always the number one selling point of NoClip. While I genuinely trust NoClip to always strive for quality, non-biased content, putting ads into the videos feels like giving an inch. It’s not terrible in-and-of itself, but I can’t help but worry that it would be a sign of a slow slide in that direction in the future. My main concern is that ads invariably incentivize chasing clicks, so very interesting niche stories might lose out in favor of those with broad appeal. If ads are going to be a thing, I think there should be some hard lines on what videos will have ads and when. I wouldn’t really take any issue with ads on trailers, extras, and the shorter session interviews, or on videos after a set amount of time even (preferably after the initial wave of viewers). But I would have some pretty big hesitations if the most recent “main” NoClip doc had pre-roll ads.

Christopher Metzger

I have no issue if you were to include ads. Before you even said it in the show I was thinking roll out ads on videos after a few weeks/a month

Lucy Yearwood

While I don't like ads as a matter of principle, I'm not going to cancel my support, I'll probably actually up it again after the dust settles on a move (obscene Maryland rents ahoy). I say go ahead and do it if you think it's best.

Chris Ramos

I've watched the video, read through the comments and I would say the best thing to do is pre-roll ads one week after a doc premieres. I don't like ads, have paid for premium because of it, but I really don't want to hold you back from noclip growing a fair amount. I don't think this lets go of your pledge for ad-free journalism, I don't see it affecting your vision for noclip, but what I do want to see with extra cashflow is more consistent output, which could easily be helped with by that extra hire you spoke of with the ad money. There's still 13 short vids to put together from GDC, Hitman has ballooned to a mini-series, you've got the Supergiant stuff as well. You've got a ton on, and more in the pipeline, and we all want to see it! Noclip is a fantastic place/community, the content is top notch, and I think with more regular output with help could net you more patrons. Hope this helps Danny!

Christopher Kelly

Thanks for the update. Really looking forward to the Hitman doc, one of my favourite series. Sounds like the upsides of running ads outweigh the downsides. I'd say do it. We all here want to see Noclip get to the next level and if this helps then I'm in favour. Patrons can always install an ad blocker if it bothers them.

The Mighty Pipe

It's interesting reading these comments seeing a roughly 1-1 split between comments that say yes to adds and people who would actually cancel their Patreon if they were implemented. Obviously lots of people in the middle as well, who understand and don't love it but would continue to support NoClip.

B&L

I can see both sides of the argument... as for Patreon monthly $$$ being shown, I have no opinion one way or another. Pre-roll ads would be fine by me, I hate the interruption ads in the middle, but with the idea of having like a month or two before you turn the ads on so all the patreons and anyone who cares will get them out the way. I wouldn't cancel my Patreon because of you turning ads on for older videos, however, I would expect more content and as long as that was flowing and the ads weren't intrusive, I'm good with that. Keep up the good work, my one regret this year was not saying hi when I saw you at e3 this year. You were busy and didn't want to intrude!

Si Davies

I've only been a patron for a few months now, but to me, growing the business is more important than having bragging rights about being an ad-free channel. I'm a patron because of the rewards, so my funding will continue regardless. Best of luck!

Nolen Murphy

I'm interested in the community building here and cool to see so much engagement! I feel like there are a few threads: 1) Most folks are really bearish on anything beyond pre-roll ads. Luckily Danny agrees (" in the case that we did, it would certainly only be pre-roll. ") 2) A common concern for those who are not in favor of pre-roll ads is whether ad revenue will influence what/how NoClip content is made 3) Some folks (including I think some long-tenured Patrons) feel that there was a commitment made to not seek ad revenue and they would be very unhappy (potentially un-patron) if that was rolled back. I think (3) is most interesting because it touches on how NoClip will evolve in collaboration with its community. I don't think it is reasonable expect Danny to never change his mind (we're coming up on three years in!) but perhaps ad-free is core to the ethos of NoClip. Good luck figuring this all out, Danny :-D

Appreciate the honesty!

Noclip

Do the ads Danny. If you can limit them to the pre-roll ads and avoid mid video ads that would be sweet.

Part of the original pitch with NoClip was no ads, independence, and making these docs in a cheap manner (based on your previous experience making similar docs and your work at Gamespot of course). Ads kind of seem counter to that. Beyond advertisements in general, is there a way to specify what type of ads people see? It will feel weird if people saw video game ads on your videos, even if you had no say into what game ads were shown. Probably an extreme example, but as a hypothetical, what if somebody watched the Doom doc and saw and ad for Doom Eternal? Or the latest FFXIV expansion in front of A Realm Reborn? An ad for an adventure game like Life Is Strange in front of Telltale? A Fallout 76 update in front of Fallout 76? Even if NoClip has nothing to do with those ads and that’s what YouTube showed viewers, it comes across as weird. So if you were to do this, it would probably be best to avoid games especially the more studios and publishers y’all work with. On the other hand if I saw an ad for Mountain Dew or a Cadillac who cares? That aside, I am no Dr. Business, but if patrons are supporting your Patreon in part so you can have ad free docs, won’t you lose a lot of supporters? Will ads be enough to offset the loss funds from Patreon? I backed you because I was a believer in your pitch and stayed a backer through the years because NoClip is great, so it probably wouldn’t affect my support either way. However, you’re guaranteed to lose at least some supporters. I have no idea what that number would be, so I have no clue what the risk is. Despite my reservations, I understand where you are coming from. If you can flip a switch and make 50% more or whatever money, that is significant. It may be worth it in the long run to say screw it and put ads on videos. Whatever is the most beneficial thing—putting out more docs, longer trips, more trips overseas, faster turnaround—if ads can help you do that, that is really tempting. That’s my two cents at least. Sincerely, a person who has YouTube Premium because I hated seeings ads while watching videos on my phone / Apple TV.

Michael

I haven't watched the video yet because I'm commuting, but I wonder why you don't seek more support from patrons rather than ads? That would seem to be what was done in the past, so why change? You could always do a documentary on advertising where you interview people on YouTube who use ads and discuss its effect on them. I would begin to wonder the roll of Patreon if you start using ads. After watching the video, I think using ads on legacy videos may be fair at this point, and perhaps some manner of delay on new ones is workable. A week or a month maybe, but that peiu will break down on the numbers of what would be earned.

Jesse James

I can really only speak for myself on this one, obviously, but I'm all for ads. Giant Bomb runs ads on their youtube stuff and it's never made me second guess their integrity or my premium membership (though I'm sure ad revenue all gets funneled into CBSi, and I don't even use their ad-free podcast feeds.) Coming from a perspective of someone also trying to make a living making videos on the internet, there's always compromise in getting paid. I don't think people like to think about it, but even if it's not a conscious consideration, converting non-viewers to viewers and viewers into patrons influences what you cover and how. It's kind of inevitable in the creative professional model unless you have a revenue source completely independent from that line of work. In a way, enabling ads gives you a little more slack to not worry about "will this doc increase our numbers by X amount" because the older docs would already be doing some of the heavy lifting. It's a new ceiling that'll give you more room to breathe, but it'll be a ceiling all the same. I'm sure the many comments here will ultimately weigh a lot in guiding you, but the real question I would ask is: would the increased net revenue yield in collective good? Whether it be more docs, or faster production, or higher production value, or more community value-adds, or whatever else -- do they benefit the noclip crew and the public perception of game development at large (the noclip mission statement, as I see it) more than they concern the people who don't like ads? While I'm totally fine with ads day-of, I also like the idea of ads after a month or so after publish as a compromise. If you think about patreon as a way for people to help fund upcoming work, ads on older videos gives newcomers the opportunity to feel like they helped retroactively fund older works that they weren't around to pitch in for. Otherwise, however much money you got from patreon 2 years ago for X doc is all the money you will ever have made from that work, which is altruistic for sure, but maybe not realistic from a business perspective when you have more options available to you.

Brandt Hughes

I would most likely drop being a patreon if you added ads to the videos, not to speak of the year one videos being suddenly very hollow with regards to all the "this video is ads free due to our awsome patrons".

Hey Danny! Per your request regarding ads: Personally, while I find them more irksome with every video I watch (regardless of the video or channel), it's simple for me to skip/ignore/etc. on ads and focus on the thing I wanted to watch in the first place, and not a product/service/brand I probably don't care about. The ONLY thing that concerns me, is something I've noticed happening more frequently: Ads happening during the middle of a video. While pre-video ads are annoying (especially since YouTube wants to tack on two ads, one being five or six seconds while the other ad could be the same length or be two minutes with a five second skip function), it's the ones in the middle that are BEYOND frustrating. I'm not versed in how YouTube places ads or what ads get placed, but imagine hearing a developer discuss a fascinating point about a game's level design or concept and mid-sentence a five second ad for Tide pods or other nonsense just forces its way in. While I'm ultimately completely for whatever decision you make to better Noclip, I can only speak for myself by saying: Some days, ads are the most aggravatingly intrusive things on the planet.

Brandon K Gann

Turn off the dollar amount, turn on ads and give me a livestream starring the cats.

Nik Mortimer

I very much understand how you must feel with a potential pot of funds just SITTING there... however please think VERY carefully before doing this. I hate adverts on the internet and one of the big things that made me excited by noclip was the no-ads stance. For you to alter that is very undermining to my understanding of the 'ethos' of noclip. The money amount display I could not really care about, I cannot say I have looked at it in months... but again its removal has a slight 'removing of transparency' feel to it. I understand you will give progress reports in patreon updates, but it is nice to have available independent measures of success. I realise it sounds whiny and entitled, but if I ever got an ad in a noclip vid that I have 'paid' for with patreon I may well table flip and remove my funding... why not if the funding will come in anyway? and there are more people I would like to back than I have funds for. The way I could accept it is on historic vids in the long tail (3 months old say) and (eg) patreon only high quality vids available on something like Vimeo. Having said all that... NoClip is a wonderful thing and I do believe that you are thoughtful and understanding enough that whatever decision you take will be for the best interest of the documentaries. EDIT: Also the stance that the extra funding could be used to bring forward new talent is a compelling one... I would push that angle you may win me round at least :D

Fragglerock

I pay for Youtube Premium, so Ads don't make any difference to me. Had you thought of providing HD downloads for Patrons?

Alan Hinchcliffe

Yeah, I really hate adds, especially on YouTube! If it would make Noclip a lot better I guess I'm okay with it, as long as I don't get to see them. My thought as well was to turn on adds after maybe a month so the legacy docs can bring in some extra cash, but the Patreons don't get bothered. Only adds in the beginning though, no adds in between! Some people here have solid points though, about it influencing the docs, so you really have to make sure it makes Noclip better in the long run, not the other way around.

Bavo Debraekeleer

Some questions around ads: * Are there alternative sources of revenue we can compare/contrast ads with? Some crazy examples: ** a Netflix partnership ** a charitable suborg * Was the impact you quoted preroll + interstitial? How much of a hit do you take going down just to preroll? Preroll seems substantially less intrusive to me. All told, an ad-free experience for patrons and an ad-having experience for everyone else seems fair to me, I'd prefer that to a time-delayed ad-free experience.

Exactly, it stops being "Videos I want to make that my fans will enjoy" and becomes "Videos YouTube wants me to make regardless of what my fans like"

Eoghan Brady

The real issue I take with YT ads ins't the ads, it's that when you do ads you inevitably start aiming things (creatively and otherwise) towards the performance of those ads

Kelsam

"... if YouTube changes their algorithm in a month and that money suddenly deflates..." ❤️

Anders Warming

With regards to the ad thing, as much I am not a fan of ads, it's a very negligible part of the viewing experience of a documentary for me personally when I know why it's being done. So, whether it's playing ads constantly or after a week or whatever is decided in the end, I'm 100% okay with it. I trust you to do what you feel is right and I know you'll do justice to the documentaries. It's so awesome that there were no ads with all the previous documentaries but the growth of Noclip is important and I know you'll do what you feel is right. Long story short, I don't mind XD Never been prouder to be a Patren for Noclip! :)

Shell Comics

Hi Danny, one of the reasons I started supporting your channel is because you sold me on the idea of high quality content that was funded solely by crowd funding. You made a lot of sense when you explained how it gave you control over what you wanted to make rather than trying to feed an algorithm. I really bought into that idea, and I truly believe it's the best way forward for games journalism. If you were to introduce ads it would totally ruin that for me. And I think I'd struggle to continue as a patron on principle alone. I know it might mean that you could hire someone else to pick up some more work, but if YouTube changes their algorithm in a month and that money suddenly deflates then you're left with an employee that you're struggling to employ. So if you had to change tactics to appease whatever YouTube wants just to keep someone's career afloat, I believe it would hurt the channel. Love the content that's on here and really appreciate what you're doing for the gaming community as a whole, and I would hate to see that jeopardised.

Eoghan Brady

I really like that there's no adds. Its a clear line. I was hoping the - still new - focus on the social side (frank + live-streaming etc.) would crow the patron count organically. Maybe give it a little time? See if it has an (perhaps slower, but steady) effect over the next 6 months before making a decision. Unless the ship is going down, then nobody is safe. NB. Also agree with @Benjamin Stephenson-Hall points. It's really hard to close that door once it's open. And as @Eoghan Brady points out. It's a whole lot of principle to go back on for something you have no control over. NB. About the dollar amount. I appreciate the transparency. It goes hand in hand with whats been said before and how NoClip was originally "sold". Again it's a clear line: user/crowdfunded documentaries. (It's a completely different beast and can in no way be compared, still: Easy Allies)

Anders Warming

Having ads on YouTube it's such a mundane thing that I won't even notice they are there. And they are even easier to ignore knowing they help you grow the channel. I loved the other guest doc, and can't wait to see this one too ! All the best everyone !

Super response. Thanks for this. I think putting more effort into Patron subs is a super first step. I don't want to pursue the ad thing until I'm convinced there's no other way to generate that extra funding.

Noclip

I personally don't care about the ads, but I can certainly see the other side of the argument. I think turning on ads for legacy docs is a nice compromise.

Sam Ruffner

Yea to your point on the different types of ads, I'm so reticent to even try any that in the case that we did, it would certainly only be pre-roll.

Noclip

I promise not to kidnap Jeremy.

People Make Games

Hello! We're all set to start filming interviews tomorrow at [STUDIO NAME THAT I DON'T WANT TO SPOIL IN THE COMMENTS]. Super super excited to be working with Noclip over the next few months - Danny has been a huge inspiration and a huge helping hand with People Make Games since before we even launched the damned thing. It now feels very surreal to be planning something that we'll be producing together. Wish me luck!

People Make Games

1. Definitely get rid of the Patron dollar amount. If it increases funding, no reason not to do so. 2. I don't feel great about introducing advertising, but it wouldn't be a dealbreaker to me. The idea of a period of ad-free and then a later introduction of ads, or a separate Vimeo version with no ads for Patrons would be the ideal way forward for me.

Quinn_Town

I don't care if preroll ads are there or not. YouTube preroll ads are not very intrusive. It's not the same story with ads right in the middle of a video. So as long as it is well handled, you can enable ads.

Christophe Sauveur

I would love to see NoClip grow, however adds on YouTube are repugnant. I know I don’t watch a lot of long form videos on YouTube due to how adds are so common now as pre, post and interstitial breaks. I can also see them really hurting the flow of the videos you produce as your style has a very deliberate flow to it. The other factor is does your putting adds on the videos devalue the paid support many of us have given since day 1? I’d say that if you did add adds I’d want all the videos I’d watch be add free and YouTube is still the easiest way to watch due to its ubiquity across all platforms. On balance I’d say no to adds, but it’s a tough one as growth would be great. Perhaps more effort being put into driving Patreon subs would be a better way to go? I’d also say no to running an add test as it’s a bad look to change things in such a substantial way to then go back on it, especially something as intrusive as adds.

B&L

You should totally turn on ads if it's going to make that much of a difference (assuming the math took into account the number of people using ad blockers).

Daniel

I personally feel that ad viewing has become part of my YouTube experience, not that I pay them much attention. If it would become a significant enough revenue source for noclip, I would be 100% supportive. Interstitial ads can be quite annoying if I get one every few minutes, but bumper ads and one in the middle, or spaced appropriately in longer docs, I certainly wouldn't mind. I never considered the ad free part of Noclip to be a major pillar of my enjoyment. As for the Hitman doc, I'm thrilled to see it. And can't wait to watch this and see the reveal of the guest doc! Game Grumps was wonderful.

Landon Robinson

This is the first doc I'll have seen as a patron and I'm so excited for it that I picked up Hitman 2 last week, having missed out on it first time round. I've got one mission left on Hitman 2016 so the timing is perfect. All the best, Danny!

James O'Donnell