A Fieldspotters Guide to Debate Pervertry and Guru Rhetoric w/ Destiny
Added 2025-01-21 07:03:50 +0000 UTCHere is the video version of the recent episode prepared by editor Andy.
In the wake of Lex's recent interview with Zelensky, we thought it was the perfect moment to dedicate an episode to a Fieldspotter's Guide for the rhetorical and manipulative techniques that flourish in the Gurusphere. To help us navigate this terrain, we're joined by streamer and online debater Steven Bonnell—better known as Destiny—who was previously the subject of a Decoding episode and Right to Reply. Destiny has spent years cataloguing what he calls "Debate Pervertry" tactics during his clashes with streamers, influencers, and online pundits, so we thought it might be worthwhile to compare notes.
Expect discussions of gurusphere favourites, including strategic disclaimers, decorative scholarship, the heterodox pose, and civility porn; as well as a deep dive into some rather colourful debate pervetry tactics including the pinball of bullshit, the lazy gardener, and the clown mirror. Along the way, we also engage in our dialectic on the methods of Dr. K and whether Sam Harris leans too heavily on interpersonal dynamics.
So, join us for a lively and hopefully informative episode that might even give your bullshit detector a bit of a boost!
Links
Our episode on Dr. K that covers the reprimand and the Reckful streams
Our Right to Reply episode with Sam Harris that covers some of the topics discussed
Comments
He doesn’t run a sex cult, but he is very promiscuous and shared pics of him banging another streamer with someone he was hitting on. She went on to leak those nudes, which traumatized the streamer he was in them with. Definitely not an okay thing to do. That said, the fallout has been a pretty classic example of what online cancellation looks like. Everyone he collaborated with had to rush to disavow and disconnect. Those who didn’t got shit on almost as hard. NotSoErudite, who co-host(ed) Bridges Podcast with him, condemned his actions, but said she’d spoken to him about it and didn’t plan on completely cutting him out of her life provided he doesn’t keep doing fucked up things. Now people call her Ghislaine Maxwell in all her comment sections. Which, and I hope this is obvious, is insane. She happens to be a female friend/business partner. Therefore she’s Ghislaine Maxwell.
Alex Weschler
2025-02-03 18:39:01 +0000 UTCWhere did you watch the thing about a sex cult? I'd be careful if I were you since there's no shortage of online personalities spreading disinformation about the allegations, notably President Sunday and Mike from PA. What Destiny did was inexcusable and he deserves repercussions for it, but his enemies aren't necessarily honest actors themselves. This topic is somewhat unrelated to Destiny's political/philosophical views and Chris and Matt have covered him before so it's no wonder they bring him on if it was recorded before the fallout happened. They did react to his promiscuous lifestyle in the decoding though for what it's worth.
Reinert
2025-02-02 11:37:59 +0000 UTCi watched something about this guy running a sex cult, it was quite damning. fuck knows if its true but shouldnt he be being guru grilled on here as opposed to platformed he seems dodgy AF
Ian Shield
2025-01-31 09:12:15 +0000 UTC,,
D Powers
2025-01-25 00:10:31 +0000 UTCI think Destiny quite likes you guys. He was much more himself in this video than he was in his appearance on Sam Harris’ show, for instance.
Joseph Sullivan
2025-01-24 00:29:00 +0000 UTCGooning: not even once
Jimmy Everyman
2025-01-23 16:10:47 +0000 UTCI don't think any person could have been reasonably expected to read the entire mrgirl report, not that anything like the recent revelations was even in it.
Jimmy Everyman
2025-01-23 16:06:04 +0000 UTCSame on the Pete’s dragon reference
Mark Francis
2025-01-23 02:44:19 +0000 UTCThe thumbnail pic of the three of you kills me 🤣
Mark Francis
2025-01-23 02:43:21 +0000 UTCwhoever is creating these thumbnails needs a raise, I busted out laughing in public with that thumbnail about the Jordan Peterson dragon.
MaxPlan
2025-01-23 01:56:55 +0000 UTCFair enough. I thought you knew about the Melina divorce manifesto. There was a lot of anticipation regarding it in his community, and you have provided clips of him talking about Melina from around that time. He openly used it as a threat against her to comply with his divorce terms. Eventually, he backed out of it and was apologetic to the audience for not following through.
Tomek Krzesiński
2025-01-23 01:39:02 +0000 UTCWe link to lots of stuff that we are not endorsing because we think they are relevant to the episode. MrGirl's report was a compilation of a lot of accusations and logs of conversations. if you think we are only linking to material we endorse then our links on other episodes should be equally confusing. I'm not saying he needs to be portraying himself as a perfect human to be hypocritical. I am saying I have not gotten the impression that he recommends his personal life as being moral. Where he has done that, besides justifying open relationships, etc. I think it is hypocritical. I'm not going to keep debating with you the precise wording and what you infer. But I would say definitively that sharing someone's sexually explicit images with a third party is both exploitative and abusive. I do not know the details with things with his ex-wife beyond what we covered, I also do not think 'unhinged' and 'disgusting' are mutually exclusive with 'messy' and 'controversial'. This podcast was released on the Patreon before the allegations came out. It hasn't been released publicly and if it is we will record an introduction that highlights the accusations. I don't think this will blow over in a week or two either but I guess we will find out.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-23 01:16:02 +0000 UTCOf course, he's never claimed to be a perfect role model. Most gurus make strategic disclaimers such as 'I'm far from perfect,' so I find it an unreasonable standard to use as evidence of hypocrisy. There are plenty of videos of him being authoritative about what exactly constitutes consent in a sexual scenario. 'On the 'messy and controversial' thing, sorry but I think that's accurate. I think that can be true and that it can also be true that he can be abusive and exploitative.' But have you ever used the words 'abusive' or 'exploitative' in his context in definitive terms? 'Messy and controversial' is not even clearly negative. A movie can be messy and controversial and still be great. 'Discussing your divorce proceedings online [...] are what I would regard as 'messy and controversial'.' Again, you're doing this thing. Threatening your wife to write a manifesto detailing every piece of dirt you have on her to share with your 800k-subscriber YouTube audience is not 'discussing your divorce proceedings,' and it’s not 'messy and controversial' - it's unhinged, vile, and disgusting. I think it's precisely this kind of framing that reinforces his behavior. If he can threaten his wife in front of hundreds of thousands of people and have it framed as 'messy and controversial,' then why wouldn't he keep pushing the envelope? I'm not surprised he's nonchalant about the revenge porn scandal, because why wouldn't he be? Take this podcast, for an example. There's an avalanche of sexual allegations surrounding him at the moment (some extensively verified at this point), and yet a podcast focusing on problematic guru behavior is still uploading an episode they did with him. I understand it's not an endorsement, but the allegations were not even mentioned by you, they were brought up by the people commenting. If I were him, I’d also expect this to blow over in a week or two. I think it's worth revisiting the 'right to reply' episode as well, where he made the case, without pushback, that sleeping with fans is actually the most rational thing to do since they are most compatible with his lifestyle.
Tomek Krzesiński
2025-01-23 00:54:42 +0000 UTCTomek, TBC I was aware of MrGirl's report but not which allegations were confirmed. MrGirl made A LOT of accusations and he is a far from reliable source. I did know Destiny was accused of sharing nudes before but I meant that I had not seen any evidence that he was engaged in any such behaviour recently, as in the past few years. Debating the redpill space and portraying yourself as an example of exemplar in relationships is a different thing. As far as I saw his argument in those spaces was that open relationships can be healthy with consent not that his relationships with fans/'oribters' are good. However, in so far as Destiny has portrayed himself as a good or moral role model in his personal relationships, I would 100% agree that is hypocritical. I genuinely have not seen that in his content. On the 'messy and controversial' thing, sorry but I think that's accurate. I think that can be true and that it can also be true that he can be abusive and exploitative. Discussing your divorce proceedings online or getting into debates with past partners about your genitals online are what I would regard as 'messy and controversial'. As for downplaying his actions, I entirely agree these are serious issues the potentially was only in regards the degree of severity. If he has indeed recorded sex tapes non-consensually and shared them, then that seems like the kind of thing that could (justifiably) result in jail time. I don't know currently which allegations will turn out to be validated but it looks at the very least like it involves non-consensually sharing sexual material with ex-partners with third parties, which is serious and both morally and legally very bad. The Decoding episode was met with praise from his community but I don't agree with you that every single critical comment about him as a result is downvoted on the subreddit. It looks to me like there is plenty of critical commentary that is upvoted. The subreddit overall has a quite strong segment of people that dislike Destiny intensely. In terms of the episode, I will go back and listen but I'm pretty sure we spent quite a significant portion on the stuff around his blurring of boundaries and inappropriate behaviour with 'orbiters'.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-23 00:04:26 +0000 UTCThis discussion is really interesting. I am trying to take it all in. It just shows how these guru podcaster figures are “word magicians” and it’s fascinating to hear you all reveal the mechanisms behind their tricks. It reminds me of The Wizard of Oz where Toto reveals the little man behind the curtain. I think what you are doing is so important and worthwhile. Please keep it up!!
Amy S
2025-01-22 17:01:08 +0000 UTCChris, you wrote, "Given what we covered of Destiny before, that he would engage in inappropriate relationships with orbiters and share nudes is not out of the range of his past behavior. However, I’d seen no evidence he was engaged in that kind of stuff." This is not true. You were aware that he had used nudes as blackmail against AnaVoir. I know this because MrGirl's anti-Destiny report, which outlines this in detail, is mentioned in the links of the episode, and I also pointed out the blackmail in the Patreon comments. As for your claim that there is no hypocrisy between his behavior and the views he expresses, this is also incorrect. He spent months debating the red pill sphere on what constitutes healthy relationships and has engaged in debates about consent in sexual scenarios. You wrote, "In Destiny's case, I have never perceived him as portraying himself as a moral role model in his personal relationships. I have seen him justify his relationship choices but also acknowledge that his personal life is extremely messy and controversial." I think framing his behavior as "messy and controversial" is what allowed him to act with complete impunity for so long. The words don't match the actions. This is unfortunately, something you do repeatedly. “However, I also recognise that he made his personal relationships and orbiter drama part of his content for many years, and I agree there are potentially serious issues with manipulation, abuse, coercion, and general power dynamics. That's why we covered that kind of stuff in the decoding episode.” You're using language that downplays the severity of his actions. Blackmailing people with nudes, leaking sex tapes, and secretly recording sexual partners are not "potentially" serious issues, they are extremely serious issues. Your decoding episode on him was met with universal praise from his community and led to an influx of his followers in the subreddit, who then began downvoting every single critical post about him. To me, this shows that if there is a disconnect between your perception of him and that of his fans, it certainly wasn't highlighted enough in the episode.
Tomek Krzesiński
2025-01-22 11:00:36 +0000 UTCOrdinary people have their livelihoods affected all the time by virtue of being accused or convicted of a sex-related crime. People lose clients, their jobs, in many industries (eg medicine, nursing, teaching etc) you may not be able to practice at all anymore or you may have conditions put on your license as the result of such a conviction. I don't think you've thought this through.
Anna J
2025-01-22 06:48:37 +0000 UTCI understand, that all sounds reasonable, I appreciate you taking the time to explain
Anna J
2025-01-22 06:45:28 +0000 UTCWe have mentioned in passing but are generally not focused on it because it is typically seen as ad hominem. In the case of Russell Brand or Huberman and the controversies, it is important to mention but say with Alex Jones or Joe Rogan, it would be typically seen as a bad faith personal attack. With Destiny, if this ends up being well-documented and pervasive behaviours, I think it would fall into Huberman/Brand territory that it should be mentioned. In any case, we will reference what is happening and our reaction if we release the episode publicly.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-22 06:40:17 +0000 UTCHe faces a social consequence either way. I’m not his real life friend. I’m a virtual stranger who pays 1/10000 of his bills
Andy
2025-01-22 05:16:46 +0000 UTCIf he’s not famous he doesn’t lose any money beyond what the court takes from him. Non-famous people don’t rely on an audience to make money.
Andy
2025-01-22 04:52:16 +0000 UTCAnd if he were not rich and famous there would certainly still be a social cost to this, separate to the legal consequences.
Anna J
2025-01-22 04:51:40 +0000 UTCAndy why do you think there's a greater punishment because he's famous? Rich and famous people usually receive LESS punishment, not more, from the justice system lol.
Anna J
2025-01-22 04:51:07 +0000 UTCOkay that's a very fair explanation which clarifies your position. I'm no longer feeling affronted and I have unclutched my pearls lol. As to your question - I agree Huberman was the one whose ... troubling... relationships with women you delved into the most deeply, and you have detailed why. The others - unless my memory is failing me, I recall mentions of poor treatment of women by Russell Brand, and also Musk and I think... Trump?
Anna J
2025-01-22 04:46:59 +0000 UTCLaura, we aren't 'learned academics'. Just bog-standard normal ones. And you are indeed right, if you talk with controversial streamers, you can't be surprised when controversy emerges. You can however be disappointed. We did the crossover because we thought it would be a good way to cover a lot of techniques that would be useful and we had noted Destiny had compiled a useful list of debate tactics and noticed similar points. We were not intending to offer a broader endorsement of Destiny but we understand that it could be perceived that way.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-22 01:50:28 +0000 UTCBoth are and you can dislike it and rail against them but they aren't going anywhere!
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-22 01:45:33 +0000 UTCAlso, just out of curiosity can you name any other Guru that we have covered whose sex life we have discussed (aside from Huberman)?
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-22 01:44:16 +0000 UTCI can clarify. To this day, I have zero interest in either Huberman's or Destiny's sex lives. That does not mean I think there is nothing to be critical of or that their behaviour is no reflection of their character. Indeed, I think what is described, if accurate, is terrible in both cases. But there are some differences. In Huberman's case, he is someone who presents himself as a very moral individual. Just recently we played the clip of him lamenting the bad moral values being taught by Californification. So, one issue raised in the article was that there is a huge hypocrisy in Huberman's self-presentation and his personal life. The details reported in that case were also the subject of months of journalistic investigation, independent fact-checking, and legal consultations. So it's fair to assume that what is reported is broadly accurate. In Destiny's case, I have never perceived him as portraying himself as a moral role model in his personal relationships. I have seen him justify his relationship choices but also acknowledge that his personal life is extremely messy and controversial. However, I also recognise that he made his personal relationships and orbiter drama part of his content for many years and I agree there are potentially serious issues with manipulation, abuse, coercion, and general power dynamics. That's why we covered that kind of stuff in the decoding episode. These recent allegations are serious and currently, it seems likely he was involved (at least) in the nonconsensual sharing of explicit material with ex-partners with a third party. I think it's right for there to be serious consequences both professionally and legally if that turns out to be the case. And I think the actual legal cases and investigations will provide the best means of determining what occurred. Whether you can separate 'the art from the artist' is a subjective judgment and usually depends on how severe you judge the violations to be. So I'm not arguing for people to ignore the accusations, or that they do not matter. I do, however, think people should be careful of placing people they find admirable for a certain skill or holding shared opinions (being a good debater and political commenter) on a moral pedestal because that is rarely deserved and definitely not in Destiny's case.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-22 01:42:21 +0000 UTCMaybe. I also think that the gurusphere is probably here to stay, at least for a while. Doesn't mean I have to accept it
Jack Anderson
2025-01-22 01:02:04 +0000 UTCBut now that there is some evidence that it involves potentially illegal behaviour are you going to change your position, or do you still have "very little interest"? I genuinely don't understand that position, for starters this kind of stuff is classic guru-esque behaviour so it's genuinely relevant to the whole premise of DtG, and you've certainly (rightfully) focused on similar behaviours from other gurus before eg huberman Maybe I've taken this the wrong way, if so I apologise, but I found it quite ... shocking? that his poor (now possibly criminal) treatment of woman doesn't "interest you"??? Or is it a case of "judge the art, not the artist?"
Anna J
2025-01-22 00:17:07 +0000 UTCA second woman has just come forward claiming he recorded them having sex WITHOUT her consent and then shared the material also without consent. She states she is pressing criminal charges. I was giving the benefit of the doubt before but honesty now it's starting to feel pretty bad that this has been left up here without any kind of disclaimer or anything in the text description. Edit: pls see my other comments as I feel fairly satisfied with the reasoning provided
Anna J
2025-01-22 00:09:34 +0000 UTCAlso if you think we ever presented Destiny as ‘respectable’ I think you are missing the point. Destiny is good at debating and good at analysing arguments but he is not a ‘respectable’ role model, he’s an edgy streamer.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-21 22:33:42 +0000 UTCGiven what we covered of Destiny before that he would engage in inappropriate relationships with orbiters and share nudes is not out of the range of his past behaviour. However, I’d seen no evidence he was engaged in that kind of stuff and he seemed to be making efforts to avoid interpersonal ‘drama’. He was making good videos focused on breaking down the rhetorical strategies of Lex and MAGA debaters, etc. hence the desire to share notes. Destiny’s sex life was of absolutely zero interest to me as far as I could avoid it and it didn’t involve illegal or exploitative behaviour. I still have very little interest in it but I think he deserves whatever consequences he reaps for his actions.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-21 22:32:08 +0000 UTCHow much people swear is just related to their social group. Im surprised anyone still gets upset by swearing.
Ema Corro
2025-01-21 21:55:00 +0000 UTCI think my brain just blew up. “I think anyone getting involved with fans and orbiters is engaging in something with serious ethical issues that are liable to blow up.” 🤯 I’m quoting the above so as not to be misunderstood by writing what follows here. I think that podcasters who have consistently introduced themselves as learned academics who then engages with and platforms one of their study subjects has already invested themselves in something with serious ethical issues that are liable to blow up. Also, I think that Destiny is a creep and your repeated interactions with him make me sad.
Laura
2025-01-21 21:30:43 +0000 UTCChris, you said, "If you’d asked me before recording if I think Destiny would be capable of doing that my answer would be the same as now. Yes. " I'm kinda gobsmacked by this. Why would you willingly platform someone you believe capable of something so despicable? This wasn't a right-of-reply episode. It was a friendly chat with someone being presented to your audience as a respectable expert.
Brink
2025-01-21 21:15:20 +0000 UTCI don’t think using Adderall is related to propensity to swear? But yes he does swear a lot. We did say he could though.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-21 20:09:30 +0000 UTCCan't we continue to hate it while we agree it's here to stay. I say it's spinach, and I say the hell with it! Anybody old enuf to get that reference?
Frances goulart
2025-01-21 20:08:59 +0000 UTCIs Destiny capable of a sentence without the word " fucking"? Is this the new "uhh", "like" verbal place holder? Shows a lack of um, imagination. Or maybe he needs his Adderall dose adjusted? Just putting it out there?
Frances goulart
2025-01-21 20:06:25 +0000 UTCI am so glad you guys listen to this slop for me. Saves on head banging against the wall.
Tim Tripp
2025-01-21 16:10:31 +0000 UTCYet another male leftist feminist turns out to be an immoral/amoral cretin. Nothing sadder than someone in their mid thirties still seeking sexual thrill and validation from teenagers.
Eli Santana
2025-01-21 15:12:57 +0000 UTCI agree. I forgot how funny it was.
Kimberly Beer
2025-01-21 14:08:56 +0000 UTCDestiny's impression of Jordan Peterson was the highlight of this.
Gearóid
2025-01-21 10:04:49 +0000 UTCChris we need to get you a catchy opening line. How about “Welcome to the show guys!!” In a fake OTT American accent?
Dave Lavelle
2025-01-21 07:36:18 +0000 UTCThe thing is I can absolutely justify doing nothing. The courts will determine what the cost of doing this ought to be. If he weren’t famous and he did this, that would be the punishment, so why does there need to be a greater punishment just because he is famous? Etc etc. but I don’t know if I trust myself to be making these judgements fairly or if I am gaslighting myself because I like his content lol
Andy
2025-01-21 07:32:12 +0000 UTCYea agree with this. As more recent fan of his, I knew he did some questionable things, if not streight up immoral, but this is kinda conflicting, IK how I would react if any other person was accused like this (almost 100% that he is guilty of it), but since I respect many aspects of him, it makes it hard and confusing.
luka
2025-01-21 07:30:20 +0000 UTCI think it’s fine to hate streaming but I think it’s here to stay.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-21 07:29:13 +0000 UTCMaybe I'm just too much of an old man but the whole culture around streaming seems horrible no matter the substantial opinions of the individual streamers. It's like a degraded form of the debating culture that surrounded the new atheists, with even more personal insults and pettiness
Jack Anderson
2025-01-21 07:28:20 +0000 UTCI wouldn’t go to Destiny for moral guidance and you can hear his justifications for the orbiter drama stuff in his Right to Reply. I think anyone getting involved with fans and orbiters is engaging in something with serious ethical issues that are liable to blow up. And if you are sharing others nudes around, you are also doing something that I think is both illegal and unethical. If you’d asked me before recording if I think Destiny would be capable of doing that my answer would be the same as now. Yes.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-21 07:24:24 +0000 UTCOr I guess not intentionally ruining their lives but intentionally betraying their trust on matters where doing so is extremely immoral and then accidentally ruining their lives as a result.
Andy
2025-01-21 07:14:04 +0000 UTCDoes*
Andy
2025-01-21 07:11:32 +0000 UTCOn the one hand, I could continue watching him and just not endorse his personal life. On the other hand, doing nothing about this dies effectively reward him for ruining these people’s lives
Andy
2025-01-21 07:11:18 +0000 UTCVery good timing :D
Franz Pökler
2025-01-21 07:10:33 +0000 UTCI’m a conflicted fan of his who has always felt a bit uneasy about his personal life and am now faced with the decision of what I want to do about this mountain of evidence that he’s clearly not reformed from being indefensibly scummy.
Andy
2025-01-21 07:10:02 +0000 UTCI believe we referred to this tendency in our original decoding and yes sadly it seems to still be all too relevant.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-21 07:08:33 +0000 UTCIn addition to “debate pervertry” Destiny is also an expert in “actual pervertry” much to the dismay of those of us who would like to see him succeed and/or be a good human being.
Andy
2025-01-21 07:07:18 +0000 UTC
