Supplementary Material 21: The emergency snake, thought = secularised prayer, and Love and War
Added 2025-01-10 03:04:16 +0000 UTCIt's 2025 and the Gurusphere, sadly, will not stop so we are here to examine some depressing crossovers. Specifically, the bro-optimiser Andrew Huberman met the chaos dragon Jordan Peterson, while the love bomb Lex Fridman finally interviewed Zelensky. Bret meanwhile is worried about PsyOps...
Supplementary Material 21
00:00 Introduction and Farewell to America
01:43 Memorable Encounters and Experiences
03:48 Oldering & the Destruction of the Self
08:35 The American Understander Issues his Verdict
12:07 The Pageau Brothers, Jesus' Laugh & The Emergency Snake
19:01 Bryan Johnson has concerns about Vaccines
21:48 The High IQ Crowd and Trump's Greenland Plans
27:44 The PsyOps Cyclops Strikes Again
37:15 Huberman X Peterson: Optimising Christiantiy
39:22 Secret Prayers and Bible Conversations
43:34 Thougt = Secularised Prayer
48:56 Huberman's Intelligent Design argument for God
55:49 Christian Optimising Stack
01:07:56 Marc Andreessen on Vigor, Pride and Achievement
01:13:30 Faux Heterodoxy
01:19:24 Plain Steaks are the best!
01:24:47 Jordan Peterson's Diet Struggles
01:32:25 Lex Fridman's Interview with Zelensky
01:37:52 Lex plugs Rogan's comedy club
01:41:09 Elon Musk and Trump are anti-corruption!
01:44:27 Critique of Lex Fridman's Interview Style
01:46:07 Lex's dream and Russia's security guarantees
01:53:25 Lex's Strategic Naivety
02:05:12 Lex reads A LOT
02:11:40 Lex and Putin predictions
02:12:39 Lex will endure the attacks against him
02:14:56 Wrapping Up & Patreon Love Bomb
Links
Comments
Certainly I'm not above missing things like this, but uh guys, I'm pretty sure we're not "patreons" but PATRONS. I think it's a reasonable and correct inference that the name of this platform is a play on that. XO
jv287169
2025-08-09 14:02:27 +0000 UTCI think you're hearing the Huebs wrong at around 48. He's saying "I know how the brain works down to the nuts and bolts* and there's a god sized hole in it" *an outrageous claim
Nimo
2025-07-03 07:47:47 +0000 UTCThere is a book "McMindfulness" by Ronald Purser that also touches upon this sort of religion as capitalist optimization. It's worth a read, at least the first few chapters. Speaking of literal secular gurus.
Jordan Tobin
2025-02-08 20:41:01 +0000 UTCI thought Huberman was saying that no one who doesn’t believe in god can understand the brain. So atheists will never be the best scientists.
Sarah S
2025-01-25 20:11:49 +0000 UTCThey are both such fools. It is beyond grating and infuriating that their asinine bullshit makes some people think they are intelligent and should be listened to.
Sarah S
2025-01-25 20:08:21 +0000 UTCI have a new video discussing Decoding the Gurus. Would love to interview Chris and Matt. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=khJQ0RbneBU&t=4s&pp=2AEEkAIB
Robert Samuels
2025-01-23 16:17:46 +0000 UTCThat Peterson and Huberman bit was so painful
James Lucas
2025-01-20 00:27:31 +0000 UTCI’m late to the party here but now that I’ve finished I had one thing to say: your work has been absolutely life-changing to me! You’ve given me much more interesting material to listen to while I’m out for walks or doing chores! No, but seriously, I enjoy learning about these gurus in more detail.
Amy
2025-01-19 01:01:31 +0000 UTCA I’ll
Cara Robertson
2025-01-18 17:06:22 +0000 UTCGood god that Lex interview!! 😬
emmajane
2025-01-18 12:48:38 +0000 UTCDidn’t think it was possible but now i dislike lex even more
Charlie Friedberg
2025-01-17 02:36:33 +0000 UTCThere is a subtype called vulnerable narcissism. Interesting area of study. Don’t want to imply a dx though.
DJM
2025-01-17 01:07:19 +0000 UTCgod i hate Lex that fucking Putin shill
Jonathan Cano
2025-01-16 23:01:43 +0000 UTC“people are asking to return to the sense makers” - oh no! audience capture!!1!!!
Jonathan Cano
2025-01-16 16:34:11 +0000 UTCThe bizarre non-sequitur where in the middle of talking about the Russian language, Lex finds an opportunity for some toadying up to Douglas Murray!
Philip Grant
2025-01-15 09:21:43 +0000 UTCAlso its not really about being naive or not. Its just narcissism. He has zero empathy for people being slaughtered by Russia. Its just all about his fucking ego ans self image.
Ema Corro
2025-01-15 08:10:40 +0000 UTCLex is such a disgusting little maggot
Ema Corro
2025-01-15 08:04:52 +0000 UTCI have a newfound admiration for you guys for listening to these people's so-called 'revelations.' It takes an incredible amount of patience and emotional resilience to sit through these podcasts. The disgust I felt during Huberman's podcast and the second-hand shame I experienced with the Lex-Zelenski conversation were truly off the charts.
Joanna Go
2025-01-15 07:40:14 +0000 UTCI don’t think we should think Andrew Hubermann is a man of science any more. I first encountered him as a guest on Tim Ferriss. During that encounter AH spent a good amount of time explaining that he deliberately set out to be “friends with Tim” because of how successful Tim was at Podcasting. AH shamelessly aligning himself with whoever is the most successful to get the benefit of that alignment. Why wouldn’t he pray now when its clearly going to get him closer to whoever is at the top of the podcasting tree. He is not a scientist, just an opportunist.
Sue Fricke
2025-01-15 07:18:51 +0000 UTCThere's a hell of a lot better an evidence base for covid vaccines than for proteinbro diets!
Philip Grant
2025-01-14 17:49:35 +0000 UTCThe convergence on Christianity is weird and makes me wary of how social dynamics affect my own views.
Daniel
2025-01-14 16:02:53 +0000 UTCIs Lex aware that he's a slimy piece of shit?
Matt
2025-01-14 15:59:36 +0000 UTCA whole army of independent free thinkers, all agreeing on everything, all in one perfect choir. Stunning.
Gunna
2025-01-14 15:37:01 +0000 UTCThis is a lot to rest on any humble podcaster’s shoulders. You’re doing God’s work. But Sunday afternoon bouldering, Mos burger runs (no mayo)…these are the things to get through hard times. 😉
Milquetoast Ramen
2025-01-14 14:03:53 +0000 UTCI have not seen any evidence of brilliance in the STEM space. Competence on the level of an engineer working at Google at most, but I’m skeptical of that based on how he comes across in his interviews
Milquetoast Ramen
2025-01-14 03:18:35 +0000 UTCHey guys, sorry I can’t listen to the entire podcast, I’m way too busy out foraging for Skittles…
Eric Quirk
2025-01-14 01:19:47 +0000 UTCHahaha I did, I mean tbf he actually platformed him and that is important and deserves recognition.
oh shizzzzz
2025-01-13 18:40:57 +0000 UTCI like your idea that there was an inevitability of a Lex. I see him as a Rogan-like figure who arose because he styles himself as a tech enterpreneur, which is relatable to a specific group of young men, overlapping with Rogan's fanbase. Rogan plus tech appeal. He has much of Rogan's credulity and agreeableness, which makes people comfortable talking to him as you say.
Daniel
2025-01-13 18:25:51 +0000 UTCThe arrogance of Lex, to think he can help bring about peace through his dumbass conversations! He just wanted to speak Russian to show off. That interview was offensive and makes me wonder how he is so stupid and out of touch. Despite the humble presentation I think there might be some deep-seated narcissism.
Daniel
2025-01-13 17:56:51 +0000 UTCGreat to be reminded of that iconic moment on the Bill Maher show. Even though I probably still would agree with Sam's main point about Islamic fundamentalism, I'm increasingly sympathetic to Ben's accusations of racism against him because although he was being quite blunt and not expressing himself as eloquently as Sam did, if you consider the overall effect Sam may have had on the discourse and the degree to which is anti-islamic spiel has provided some intellectual credibility to a lot of genuinely racist ideas and conversations on the right, Ben's tirade seems to be aging quite well. I don't believe Sam is racist in the way we think of actual racists being racist, but he has said a lot that can easily be interpreted as racist and at the very least may have a negative impact on race relations. Not sure I've communicated this that well but I'm gonna stop now and just post this..
Spartacus Mills
2025-01-13 14:58:26 +0000 UTCPart Three: Tries to get Trump to speak English.
Ymirsdreams
2025-01-13 13:31:04 +0000 UTCI don’t think any episode has bothered me like this one. Lex and Hubermann are vile.
pr
2025-01-13 12:03:53 +0000 UTCCan’t wait for the follow up episode, where he tries to get Putin to speak Ukrainian.
barbara wright
2025-01-13 08:17:13 +0000 UTCIronically, Zelensky appears to be the one comedian mentioned in today’s episode who managed to go on to make a significant positive impact on the world.
barbara wright
2025-01-13 08:12:31 +0000 UTCHearing Zelensky would be the chief reason to give it a listen; however, I found my patience wearing thin with Lex's line of questioning in the clips on this show. I give Zelensky credit for waging the good PR war, and like Ukraine's Kursk invasion, he's going on the offense.
Ant_tithesis
2025-01-13 01:22:15 +0000 UTCJoe Rogan said he’s very smart- QED. And he does Robots. And talks slow like a Robot or Mr Spock. With an accent. What other proof is needed? If Mel Gibson can have such faith why can’t we….
Brainbiter
2025-01-12 23:12:29 +0000 UTCJust reflecting on this cracker of an episode- and the continued degradation of the gurus here over the years to where we are now. Dave Rubin - had Sam Harris as first guest and quotes his Ben Affleck moment as the trigger. SH provided intellectual weight for years to JRE while both lived LA. Lex F again has said he modelled himself on SH. And to my knowledge SH being mutual friend got Musk and Rogan together…. I wonder if Sam ever, in his quiet moments ever wonders about his heuristics….oh and Hirsi Ali is now a Christian… has anyone ever had such a terrible hit rate ? 🤣
Brainbiter
2025-01-12 23:07:50 +0000 UTC😂
Neely McCormick
2025-01-12 23:05:18 +0000 UTCIndeed.
Neely McCormick
2025-01-12 23:04:12 +0000 UTCThe first time I heard it was in those on stage debates between JBP and Sam Harris.
Ben Godek
2025-01-12 22:03:47 +0000 UTCIt’s an audience-creator feedback loop for sure. To your other point, it’s a very American conception of Christianity. I’m amazed by how little some of these guys talk the ethics of Christianity/Jesus. One of the words that dazzled Huberman was Pride, which is a just a classic Christian value if I’ve ever heard one.
Ben Godek
2025-01-12 21:33:45 +0000 UTCYes, please do come back to some of the classic Guru lineup from time to time!
JustTheWorstEver
2025-01-12 20:40:08 +0000 UTC(hit return too soon) Also wanted to share that while I was listening, it reminded me of how sad I am that so many can't see similarities between Ukrainians and Palestinians. Lots of parallels there. I won't go on and on, but once you see it it's hard not to see. There is a shared humanity there I hope we can find. Also glad Matt liked San Francisco, and sorry we didn't get to do a DtG nerd hang! Thank you for seeing the beauty of our little city, which lots of people (even here, sadly) like to put down as blighted and scary, when it's the silicon valley bros from the south taking us over that has been the scariest thing over the last 20 to 30 years, I promise! We were just a weird scrappy little port union town before the dot bomb, and we will be again, I hope. Okay, that should be enough commentary to have half or more of my fellow patreons rolling their eyes ; ) Thanks again for a great episode!
Monica B.
2025-01-12 18:13:45 +0000 UTCDamn I'm glad for the work you guys do! This was a good one. Lex. Oof. Zelensky is so impressive, and I hope one day when Ukraine is free from the occupation that we can hear him go off on people once and for all. You know he has it in him!
Monica B.
2025-01-12 18:08:55 +0000 UTCStrange. I re-downloaded but sill no chapters.
aviess
2025-01-12 17:34:21 +0000 UTCIt’s actually something I find being done less and less by these people, as they are not able to do it If you’re not able to make the strongest case for your opponents argument you’re unlikely to succeed in a debate Destiny is good on and at this
jss
2025-01-12 17:08:39 +0000 UTCAlexei Fedotov’s Wikipedia was edited in 2022 🧐 Curious changes https://x.com/rail_splitter1/status/1865232904940589222?s=46&t=IJqTtCIrmq6aiQd3l6IQ-w
jss
2025-01-12 16:59:58 +0000 UTCAgree with the comments on Lex. I've always, naively, had a bit of a soft spot for him, that he's at least smarter than Rogan. But that interview is beyond the pale. The facetiousness of it. To think Zelensky is a war-time leader facing the unconscionable decisions and horror that he is, and this berk is saying let's go and get brisket with Rogan and Putin. What planet is he on?
George
2025-01-12 16:58:52 +0000 UTChttps://x.com/rail_splitter1/status/1865232904940589222?s=46&t=IJqTtCIrmq6aiQd3l6IQ-w
jss
2025-01-12 16:55:20 +0000 UTCWorthy of note From Railsplitter Fella on twitter: In January 2022, prior to full invasion, on his Wikipedia page: born Alexei Fedotov in Moscow, Russian-American. By 2023, page was edited. Gone were “Fedotov” and Moscow. He was now “born in Kyiv” and was “Ukrainian-American.” See tweet for screenshots https://x.com/rail_splitter1/status/1865232904940589222?s=46&t=IJqTtCIrmq6aiQd3l6IQ-w
jss
2025-01-12 16:54:47 +0000 UTCIt’s worth listening to hear Zelensky’s words in full, and the only good thing here is that fridman lets his guests speak without interruption DtG covers Lex not Zelensky Everyone should hear the full Zelensky parts
jss
2025-01-12 16:53:00 +0000 UTCIt is. But worth it, so stick with it
jss
2025-01-12 16:43:07 +0000 UTCYeah there were a few words Matt says I couldn’t make out. I assumed it was a glitch on the signal. Perhaps Chris understood them as he had video?
jss
2025-01-12 16:39:32 +0000 UTCAlso the burn on his Russian made me laugh.
Kimberly Beer
2025-01-12 16:30:24 +0000 UTCI’m listening to the end and Lex should be ashamed of himself. I agree with you both: how does Zelensky not flip a table.
Kimberly Beer
2025-01-12 16:27:10 +0000 UTCI'm also using AntennaPod, and the chapter links in the shownotes worked for me.
Roland Weber
2025-01-12 15:17:24 +0000 UTC[audio] there are whispers(?) around 1:13:24 in the background. Just loud enough to be creepy 🫣
unpronounceable polish volcano
2025-01-12 14:56:51 +0000 UTCOn the convergence of all the "heterodox" gurus on a single, unchallengeable "party line" of issues - perhaps it's useful to think of "audience herding" as a logical result of audience capture. Just as in audience capture, it's not the audience that are captured by the performer, but the other way around, so with audience herding, its the performers who are being herded by the audience into their red button zone. Also loved the idea of Huberman using prayer as a performance-enhancing drug. Which sparks a whole digression into the idea of prayer as a petition to get your divine patron to bend the rules of reality in your favour - a plea for god to corrupt the laws of the universe for your personal benefit, a la prosperity gospel. And what that means for that form of worship
Paul Bowman
2025-01-12 13:57:22 +0000 UTCWhy does it feel like the guru’s are now becoming less distinct from one another? Like a merger of galaxy brainedness into a small number of common themes. Is Huberman now just a Peterson protégé just without the archetypes? Does Lex exist only to keep the Overton window open in his lifelong search for a spine or an original thought? Many questions! It does make me wish that the desert island hunger games thing was real. But then again, what do I mean by real in the postmodern dystopia of the conservative gurusphere?
CrystalJade
2025-01-12 13:10:41 +0000 UTCHm, maybe it's just me, but the chapters are not working in Antennapod. Haven't had that issue with any of your episodes before.
aviess
2025-01-12 13:02:31 +0000 UTCGood lord. Just unbearable, that guy.
pete
2025-01-12 11:59:32 +0000 UTCPete, did you hear Jordy's story (from a couple years ago) about him barging into a restaurant kitchen to "instruct" the crew on how to make hashbrowns? Not to sound like a tough guy but if he pulled that shit in one of my kitchen the Doctor would have gotten a lesson in "dominance hierarchies" pretty damn fast.
Allan Malcolm McPherson
2025-01-12 11:43:41 +0000 UTC...because Dr. K was too busy, and also doesn't do therapy, of course.
Roland Weber
2025-01-12 11:05:46 +0000 UTC"Dipshit pseudointellectual twaddle-pumping fucksticks"! This is a fine description
Spartacus Mills
2025-01-12 11:03:04 +0000 UTCTo be honest, there have been many previous occasions I’ve thought Peterson isn’t doing thinking correctly…that example may be another of those occasions. I was brought up by a parent who sternly informed me that most people don’t think, they only imagine. The gurusphere is full of folk with active imaginations, let’s put it like that.
barbara wright
2025-01-12 06:45:34 +0000 UTCI used to cook in a steak and frittes joint favored by pompous wealthy assholes, and the notion of Huberman or Petersen poking their head into a busy restaurant kitchen to "educate" the staff on how to properly execute a "Pittsburgh Char" was hilarious. Good way to get your soup spat in. Excellent work you guys, love to hear you tear strips off these dipshit pseudointellectual twaddle-pumping fucksticks. Peterson especially. A hundred pounds of bullshit in a twenty pound bag, that guy.
pete
2025-01-12 02:44:47 +0000 UTCI had to turn off the Lex part, it was too hard to listen to…
oh shizzzzz
2025-01-12 02:44:31 +0000 UTCThe Lex interview with Zelensky oddly reminded me of Hassan’s interview with the Houthi pirate when he was asking the kid about Mr. Beast and video games. The collision between the superficial and banal with the tragically real is so bizarre to witness. Lex’s inability to understand the magnitude of what the Ukrainians have been living through is hard to stomach.
Linda Sears
2025-01-12 01:04:41 +0000 UTCJust finished the episode and I think it's one of the best yet. Up there with sense making cubed for sure. The worse and more cringe things get in Podcastistan, the more entertaining, cathartic and necessary DtG becomes. Got so much love right now for Chris and Matt and the whole DtG community ❤️
Spartacus Mills
2025-01-11 23:41:33 +0000 UTCIs there evidence that he is brilliant in maths or computer science?
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-11 23:12:11 +0000 UTCIn Lex’s case I think it’s extreme naïveté mixed with a bit of social impairment. It certainly not always the case, but in my experience, a lot of guys who are brilliant in mathematics and computer science often don’t understand more nuanced social dynamics
Par
2025-01-11 22:02:03 +0000 UTCThank You! You guys are working over time! Not sure if this pal is on your radar : Orion Taraban?
Kimberly Beer
2025-01-11 21:41:18 +0000 UTCThe colleague then advised Huberman to see a therapist. So he invited JBP to the pod!
kurdelis
2025-01-11 20:31:53 +0000 UTC“The whole notion of prayer and god et cetera” really sounds like he has a deep connection to a supernatural being…et cetera. But seriously, does Huberman think that saying to yourself “you got this” is what religious people do when they pray to god?
Michal Lichota
2025-01-11 20:13:01 +0000 UTC“The whole notion of prayer and god et cetera
Michal Lichota
2025-01-11 20:07:47 +0000 UTCMy fanfiction is that Andrew Huberman has a well-meaning colleague who, upon learning that Huberman was compulsively recruiting women for his harem, while conveniently forgetting to tell them they were in a harem, didn't know quite how to broach the topic of sex addiction. So they recommended the show Californication, which deals with the topic. Huberman is somehow so un self aware that he watched it and was pruriently shocked by the childish self indulgent behavior on screen. Unable to recognize his own behavior, which of course is above reproach, and unable to maybe see that the show is critical of the character's flaws? How are these intellectuals so dumb.
Kerena
2025-01-11 19:40:11 +0000 UTCI just looked at Lex’s Wikipedia page. WTF? How are guys like this such flaming assholes? His conversation with Zelensky made me absolutely crazy🤯
Neely McCormick
2025-01-11 19:05:35 +0000 UTChad my face in my hands for the bit with lex talking about joe rogan. god i cant believe thats a real thing that happened
Soapy Dishwater
2025-01-11 17:56:35 +0000 UTCEspecially considering Lex's Russian is about on par with Zelenskyy's English. How out of touch can one be
Reinert
2025-01-11 16:50:21 +0000 UTCIsn’t the urban legend that Eric coined it … along with ‘audience capture’ ….if confirmed surely we need a new phrase…’ admantium manning’ is the obvious one.
Brainbiter
2025-01-11 16:07:27 +0000 UTCI just think it's become a real red flag for right-wingers to sound like they are reasonable centrists. When I hear Joe Rogan say it, it makes me wince.
Gearóid
2025-01-11 15:42:43 +0000 UTCSo glad you cover Lex so we don't have to download his podcast and listen to how vapid he is first-hand.
Ant_tithesis
2025-01-11 15:30:37 +0000 UTCTrying to get Zelenskyy to speak Russian is so insanely tasteless and rude it boarders on a hate crime.
Ymirsdreams
2025-01-11 14:45:54 +0000 UTCIt is exciting to be in place where not all of wildlife can kill you. That is my impression of Australian wildlife. Even the cute looking things are deadly
Bernt Goodson
2025-01-11 14:37:50 +0000 UTCExactly! Hungry for approval
Allan Malcolm McPherson
2025-01-11 14:31:53 +0000 UTCIt felt like Jordan was gleeful that his all meat diet was being given the scientific seal of approval by Huberman.
Linda Sears
2025-01-11 14:17:25 +0000 UTCIn rhetoric, it’s similar to acknowledging and addressing the opposing position’s counter argument so that you can better refute it. I guess the difference is that you present the opposing position’s argument in the best way possible.
Linda Sears
2025-01-11 14:13:34 +0000 UTCQuery for Professor B: in your American travels, did you bump up against online sports gambling (FanDuel, DraftKings, etc.)? Doesn’t seem like it’s going to end in anything good.
Lucy
2025-01-11 14:03:05 +0000 UTCNow you can listen to Pageau. Pick your "poison" 😉
Jacob_3BP
2025-01-11 14:01:00 +0000 UTC@Randy The name "Carolina" might be a hint where the poster is from. 🌞
Roland Weber
2025-01-11 13:59:43 +0000 UTCGood point. It’s so sad how cynical one has to be with these types.
Linda Sears
2025-01-11 13:57:42 +0000 UTC"It's important to Donald Trump that I speak Russian?" 😂
Jacob_3BP
2025-01-11 13:57:36 +0000 UTCSuffering is a subjective experience. I didn't get the feeling that he does.
Roland Weber
2025-01-11 13:50:16 +0000 UTCMight want to add some snake oil for lubrication.
Roland Weber
2025-01-11 13:48:42 +0000 UTCThanks for the reminder.🌹 I was pondering to re-watch the movie or re-read the book just the other day.
Roland Weber
2025-01-11 13:46:51 +0000 UTC...and squirrels! Don't forget the squirrels. 🐿
Roland Weber
2025-01-11 13:44:00 +0000 UTCI guess it was coined as an opposite to strawmanning. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
Roland Weber
2025-01-11 13:40:37 +0000 UTCLex is really testing the limits of cringe.
Roland Weber
2025-01-11 13:38:33 +0000 UTCDon't worry, you're not alone. https://images.app.goo.gl/VJvc9RUgkCFVi2bb9
Roland Weber
2025-01-11 13:37:41 +0000 UTCI think Sam helped popularize it actually.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-11 13:37:09 +0000 UTCWelcome aboard!
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-11 13:36:53 +0000 UTCWe will be going left wing for a holiday after Thiel.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-11 13:36:26 +0000 UTCI think my favorite part of thus episode was the clip of Huberman rattling on about amino acids in the gut and Jordy's piping in with an enthusiastic "sure!". That's something that is clear and obvious unlike wether or not fire is a predator...good grief
Allan Malcolm McPherson
2025-01-11 13:35:56 +0000 UTCWe feel it.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-11 13:35:56 +0000 UTCI feel that with every new release of this shitfuckery everything is getting more and more surreal. Is it me or others feel the same?
Nico
2025-01-11 12:56:44 +0000 UTCQuality comment!
Spartacus Mills
2025-01-11 11:05:26 +0000 UTCOne. Hundred. Percent. (in the style of a Peterson poem tweet, if that wasn't obvious)
Spartacus Mills
2025-01-11 11:04:40 +0000 UTCIf you don't know what a Pittsburg char is, then maybe you're in the wrong restaurant!
Spartacus Mills
2025-01-11 11:00:33 +0000 UTCI joined a while ago but I do find this episode to be one of the best yet for the shits and giggles. The Huberman and Peterson section is pure gold. They're satirising themselves at this point but Chris and Matt's chat analysis (chatnalysis?) is so entertaining!
Spartacus Mills
2025-01-11 10:59:26 +0000 UTCI love Matt’s observation- ‘it’s like they’ve all rediscovered Fascism’
Brainbiter
2025-01-11 08:52:11 +0000 UTCCmon- it’s Not cultural pathology- it’s why all the terrible gurus are American…..are we saying that’s a good thing?
Brainbiter
2025-01-11 08:45:11 +0000 UTCPlease please stop doing (?North) Right Wing Americans for a while ….please…can’t take much more self help , self actualisation, shining city on hill , faux friendliness, guns n bibles hypocrisy . Can’t we find some good old miserable Europeans / (or Aussies/NZ) palate cleansers- what about a Russian- have you done Dugin yet? Remember how refreshing Zizek was….
Brainbiter
2025-01-11 08:42:06 +0000 UTCAnd recent sex scandal, power of redemption. ( see also Russell Brand, any evangelical mega church pastors)
Brainbiter
2025-01-11 08:27:30 +0000 UTCAh... I did think it was random for this weird OT detail to suddenly come up in the discorse.
Emma
2025-01-11 07:44:53 +0000 UTCAs an American - upon whom all this idiocy is being inflicted- your actual tone as you respond to these sycophants and frauds and idiots in disbelief is such a balm. Sanity.
Sam D.
2025-01-11 07:39:17 +0000 UTCThe dark tower of mordor
Ando
2025-01-11 07:34:31 +0000 UTCLove that guy
Ando
2025-01-11 07:29:17 +0000 UTCThis was the pod that made me join the patreon
Ando
2025-01-11 07:25:55 +0000 UTCRight there with you. Nearly chucked my phone
Ando
2025-01-11 07:13:23 +0000 UTCHoly fuck Lex is insufferable
Ando
2025-01-11 07:12:19 +0000 UTCWhat are the origins of the phrase "steelmanning"? It seems to be one of those concepts that right-wing 'intellectuals' have taken over to give themselves the moral high ground in the discourse.
Gearóid
2025-01-11 07:10:41 +0000 UTCThat Jordan Peterson interview with Pierre was incredible. Two of the least charismatic people with the most grating voices
Beel
2025-01-11 06:52:07 +0000 UTCAlthough I recognize the (hopeful) unseriousness of Trump’s assertions, his continued repetition thereof has alarm bells going off in my otherwise tranquil Canadian brain.
Liam
2025-01-11 05:57:38 +0000 UTCOh my god!!! I didn't think anyone could top my disgust for Russell Brand, but Lex succeeded. I listened to these clips with slack-jawed disbelief.
Marcin Junczys-Dowmunt
2025-01-11 04:51:21 +0000 UTChello! funnily enough we covered the biomechanism by which protein makes drosophila (and maybe us…) feel full… its actually insulin in your brain signalling to T1DANs actually pretty interesting https://medicalnewsbulletin.com/how-protein-keeps-you-feeling-full/
Joanna Mulvaney
2025-01-11 04:47:22 +0000 UTCNephilim are also conflated with aliens in conspiracy-land. The QAA podcast guys covered this last year. The kind of weird stuff that shows you where M Pageau is probably coming from, sadly.
Nancy Hale
2025-01-11 04:30:07 +0000 UTC"Prayer is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - Andrew Huberman
Bill Beatty
2025-01-11 04:25:48 +0000 UTCI'm gunna have to look that up!
Emma
2025-01-11 03:53:15 +0000 UTCAs a sappy-sounding yet sincere American, it’s encouraging to hear of Matt’s generally positive experience on our shores (except for the scarcity of public restrooms — duly noted.) Safe travels & don’t be a stranger to the land of fried chicken & smoked meats.
Nancy Hale
2025-01-11 03:28:39 +0000 UTCWhat about if a person is switching between French and English throughout a conversation, and when an English person doesn't understand the English words the speaker claims he was in fact actually speaking French at that time? That's more analogous to what Peterson is doing, and this has already been explained to you by others. Steelmanning doesn't mean clarifying your particular interpretation of their poorly articulated and obfuscational assertions. This is a core criticism of Peterson, slipping in and out of metaphorical language and using semantic games to avoid being pinned down on any of the ridiculous things he says. He tells us he is very careful with his words, so why are you trying to defend his poor communication? You don't know what he means, that's why your attempt involved changing the word 'prayer' into the word 'meditation' at the outset. What makes you think you understand him so much more than anyone else, can you read his mind? Why would a one on one chat be helpful? Peterson is useless at clarifying anything in any conversation with anyone. Yes there is a blind spot being shown here - your emotive pleading for the value of Jordan Peterson, while you ignore all the responses to you that have already covered everything you have claimed from every possible angle. Find me one of his fans who hasn't also been led towards manosphere content and right-wing ideology when they've supposedly been helped by his banal self-help advice back in the day? From the start his clear intent was to get involved in politics/culture wars, and yes people find meaning with a team identity and establishment enemies to fight against. Who is actually being helped here? Is a suicidal teenage boy finding meaning through the process of being indoctrinated and recruited to fight for Isis really being 'helped' in their life, despite their depression lifting? If you've read any Peterson you'll know that his banal self help advice was always just a pathway into fundamentalist Christianity and classic right-wing ideology for young men. Today he is simply a right-wing media (the Daily Wire) piece to give an intellectual veneer to deeply anti-intellectual claims. So I think you miss the point and the meaning of Peterson more than anyone. He used the word prayer for a reason, not meditation or the sub-conscious. Why would a fundamentalist Christian in everything but name who desires and supports a theocracy want to claim that 'prayer' preceded thought, and that thought is really 'secularised prayer', oh I wonder why? That is the most likely inference of his intended meaning here based on his history. Steelmanning involves strengthening/clarifying their position, not what you want them to mean. You're just an impartial unbiased outsider just trying to help out with some blind spots that only you can see, and I'm just a centrist with no dog in this fight man. Everybody is seeing what you're seeing, and they are also seeing a classic Peterson apologist missing the point again and again despite some very clear and well articulated responses. Maybe if the responses here were composed of a mix between literal and metaphorical language and pseudo-profound word salad you could interpret it for us with your unique ability to decipher meaning in messages. You come across as disingenuous and closed-minded as you claim to be the opposite of those things. You're oh-so self-righteous because apparently Peterson has helped someone somewhere in some unspecified way so you just had to do the hard work to understand why that is, you being the empathetic hero that you are. So you found that elusive meaning in Peterson, but no you don't find any value in it for yourself of course because you're not actually a Peterson fan what with you being all unbiased and reasonable and whatnot. Find me a Peterson fan who isn't pretentious and completely full of it? Why do Peterson fans feel a need to assert that they uniquely understand their narcissistic Messiah yet simultaneously claim to be unattached to him? Oh you're the enlightened one and you're considering taking your gifts elsewhere, gotcha. Hey DTG, if this disingenuous turd cancels please inform me and I'll upgrade my Patreon sub.
Mark Vaughan
2025-01-11 01:02:38 +0000 UTCHuberman does give a lot of good advice, and his way to deliver his advice also stands out. If it helps make your life better, there is nothing wrong with listening to him. The problem is when people put him on a pedestal, or grant him undue levels of credibility.
Jean-François Melançon
2025-01-10 23:53:06 +0000 UTCMaybe Pageau was referring to Brett’s Goliath that has been undermining unity.
Linda Sears
2025-01-10 23:51:36 +0000 UTCAndy -> The issue is that Peterson posits idiosyncratic definitions only when useful for his argument. He then utilises ambiguity to make provocative statements, such as doing science requires being religious or thought being secularised prayer. And if you pushed at those definitions he would retreat to his idiosyncratic definitions, religion = valuing truth, ritual = interacting with unconscious cognitive activity. But when in a receptive audience he uses his idiosyncratic and elastic definitions interchangeably with the more commonly understood ones. Your summary of what Peterson and Huberman are talking about with prayer is also not accurately representing what they said. Here is Huberman, for example, clarifying that prayer is not just a form of introspection but rather interacting with an external source... "uh, deliberate breathing, aka breath work can allow you to shift your state. Hypnosis is a tool that can allow you to solve a particular problem because it has some, you know, aspect of neuroplasticity can there, um, non sleep depressed, which is a thing that was built out of this, uh, This practice called yoga nidra, where you go into a, an awake, but deeply relaxed state allows you to restore your vigor. Meditation to me is a way of, of enhancing one's ability to focus, you know, a third eye meditation of concentrating your breath, et cetera. I mean, we know based on the data improves focus. Prayer to me is entirely different than all of those. There's some overlap that they, they, they look similar. Some of them look similar from the outside, prayers. The, the, uh, for me is the allowing of something from truly outside me to come through me and bring out the best in me." This aligns with my understanding of Christian prayer and the common definitions of the word. Not to mention I've heard Peterson explain in other content his views about what Jesus achieved as a fully actualised person being beyond our comprehension and that the fact we might be able to interact with that source through prayer is totally coherent. So your secularised and psychologised interpretation of Peterson's 'prayer' does not accord with his broader output. It's also interesting you mention not praying... really? You seem to be defaulting here to the common understanding of the word you but you've just been arguing for the coherence of a conception of prayer that means almost everyone in the world is engaged in forms of prayer. After all, isn't thought just secularised prayer? ;) but even ignoring that. You have no experience and have found no value in practice that is similar to what Jordan is discussing? You've never focused your intent on something and then let the subconscious realm do the thing it does? You are not interested in the mysterious nature of the mind? Finally, Tony Robbins has literally tens of thousands of people who will swear that his advice dramatically improved their lives. The same applies to Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard. People receiving help or gaining insight from a source is not an indication that the claims being made are valid. Indeed, in most cases the effective self help stuff is actually divorced from the esoteric framing.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 22:18:45 +0000 UTCLinda me to! I couldn't think of anything scarier!
Emma
2025-01-10 21:48:00 +0000 UTCAs well as being giants the nephilim were the children of the sons of God (deities of some sort) and human women. Crazy old testament stuff.
Emma
2025-01-10 21:44:59 +0000 UTCLex Friedman is exactly what he appears to be: a very earnest if dimwitted, rightwing-ish fanboy utterly lacking in guile or good sense. Nothing is hidden beneath the surface. He really is this dumb. The reason that he exists is because he is — randomly — the man the entire guru-sphere feels safe talking to. He is credulous, totally enamored of them, and isn’t smart enough to tell when they don’t make any sense. Lex Friedman was inevitable in an ego-driven alternative media space where over-sensitive crackpots drivel on with half-baked nonsense for 3-4 hours a day. It was the gurus who made him famous. They did so because they needed an idiot this clueless to make them feel smart.
Jonathan Crymes
2025-01-10 20:11:23 +0000 UTCLex is funnier, but absolutely not on purpose.
Ben Godek
2025-01-10 20:09:11 +0000 UTCSuddenly I have a lot more respect for Zelensky tho.. what a patient person. :D
ketracel-white
2025-01-10 19:44:44 +0000 UTCLex.. what a dolt.
ketracel-white
2025-01-10 19:42:47 +0000 UTCThe discussion of whether Jesus laughed, and whether laughter in general is subversive or virtuous, is a main plot line in Umberto Eco's "In the Name of the Rose". Not very surprising to see wannabe profound guru's try to revive medieval debates.
Jacob_3BP
2025-01-10 19:16:10 +0000 UTCIt seems to me that Huberman has embraced God in order to justify/boost his unscientific claims about self-optimization. Being in touch with God allows him to manifest even more powers within himself. It’s bio-hacking with God as the extra special supplement.
Linda Sears
2025-01-10 18:22:44 +0000 UTCEverytime I hear Jordan Peterson (or, as Matt once called him, Jordisan) speak, I feel as though I've been visited by the centipede of confusion. I don't like it.
Brink
2025-01-10 17:34:31 +0000 UTCMy palms and feet started sweating with anxiety while Chris told that story. It’s like a flashback to junior high school.
Linda Sears
2025-01-10 17:31:36 +0000 UTCThe words emergency snake immediately made me think of the sewer snakes that plumbers use to unblock drains. Have a plumbing emergency? Call emergency snake now!
Linda Sears
2025-01-10 17:27:56 +0000 UTCBlocked and Reported did a good segment on trad wives in December 2024. Maybe you would like it
Andreas Singer
2025-01-10 17:04:28 +0000 UTCGreat comment, but it's made me curious about what part of the country you're from. As a New Yorker, I align much more closely with Matt and Chris's sort of dark sarcasm than your sincere wholesomeness, but I think that's just a New York/Northeast thing.
Randy
2025-01-10 17:01:08 +0000 UTCLex bringing up corruption with Zelensky gave Zelensky an opportunity to shoot it down, which he did. I wonder if Lex will bring up corruption in kleptocratic Russia if he gets to interview Putin? Ok don't answer that
Stephen McGlinchey
2025-01-10 16:59:15 +0000 UTCSpeaking of comedians, real question here: Who is funnier, Dave Rubin or Lex?
Randy
2025-01-10 16:54:18 +0000 UTCThe best part of the Zelensky interview are the comments in the Youtube section. They take apart Lex and his stategic naivety apart like the Christmas goose that he is. This gives me back hope to humanity. The majority of people are in touch with actual reality and have not outsourced their thinking to political propagandists
Andreas Singer
2025-01-10 16:50:53 +0000 UTCLex gives me a cluster headache.
Paul Ditta
2025-01-10 16:25:25 +0000 UTCIt’s the same genre as his take that you can’t do science unless you’re religious. Or like the video with Pageau and the glass where he implies that perceiving the world with your eyes is sorta religious. He defines religion so broadly that anything can fit under its umbrella.
Ben Godek
2025-01-10 16:19:51 +0000 UTCI see him trying to pull something with the Panama Canal as the most likely (for racist reasons), and even that’s unlikely.
Ben Godek
2025-01-10 16:15:31 +0000 UTCMy own take was that his description of thinking as “secularized prayer” is exactly backwards. For me (i eventually realized), prayer was just religified thinking/talking to myself. I guess JBP and i are probably both full of it, in our own ways.
Cuzn Ed
2025-01-10 16:08:33 +0000 UTC“I read a book about this, guys! Actually, perhaps 10 or more books! Just because i don’t remember what they said, doesn’t mean i can’t opine about them!”
Cuzn Ed
2025-01-10 16:02:14 +0000 UTCLex suffers from the Dunning Kruger effect
Mark Francis
2025-01-10 15:40:30 +0000 UTCApple Podcasts feed is good now
Rick Hunter
2025-01-10 15:32:31 +0000 UTCIt's good now, thanks. I just had to sleep on it!
FolkSong
2025-01-10 15:28:15 +0000 UTCZelensky was actually pretty good. He's worth listening to. Ultimately he knows the MAGA base listen to Lex. He's trying to influence them. He knows how influential the pod bros were in the last election. And he knows Kamala messed up by passing on them.
Ad Tastic
2025-01-10 14:47:27 +0000 UTCI also saw videos on trad figures on the YouTube channels Fundie Fridays (covers fundamentalism) and Tara Mooknee (covers feminism etc). Oh not to mention the podcast Sixteenth Minute looked into Mormon influencers who are pretty trad
Sophie
2025-01-10 14:46:23 +0000 UTCI think even Lex realized he was out of his depth. What with his weak sauce excuse of not remembering details. I must have missed that first time I listened. Of course it wasn't only the details he was missing. He didn't demonstrate any degree of understanding at all. Its all so weak. Weak and stanky like old dishwater.
Ad Tastic
2025-01-10 14:42:55 +0000 UTCThere is a snowball’s chance in Mar-a-Lago that Canada will join the US.
Tim Tripp
2025-01-10 14:35:29 +0000 UTCThere’s good trad wife analysis on In Bed With The Right
Sophie
2025-01-10 14:17:11 +0000 UTCI have fun money this month, happy to pitch in.
Jess B.
2025-01-10 13:56:07 +0000 UTCIt seemed to me that Zelenskyy’s question about who would pay for dinner was a thinly veiled jibe at Lex and Rogan! As in Putin will be paying if you guys pick up the bill?
Conall Keane
2025-01-10 13:45:32 +0000 UTCLex. Holy crap. Why would anyone listen to that drivel?! And why would Z agree to this? It’s all jaw-droppingly cringe
Kgar
2025-01-10 13:38:58 +0000 UTCGo for the jugular, guys! These pretentious pricks ( your words, my thoughts) deserve every gut punch!!
Frances goulart
2025-01-10 13:37:39 +0000 UTCI haven't listened yet but I'm glad you covered the huberman x Peterson collab I recently watched some huberman videos about how to breath , dopamine and adhd and I found it so helpful. But then I saw he had JP on and I almost regretted being helped by his other podcasts 🫠😂 How can a "hard science" guy even bare to be within ear shot of a blathering moron who barely even pretends to care about scientific research. It's like if Bill Nye had a special episode with Al Sharpton.
Zelda Hershy
2025-01-10 13:36:03 +0000 UTCI suspect it will be the same as last time but more so. Throwing up smoke screens of disorientation - for what ends I suspect not even he knows.
Nina Davies
2025-01-10 13:04:59 +0000 UTCI really enjoyed the calm analysis of the madness, party due to being gaslit for 7 days by Elon Musk, Tommy Robinson and Robert Jenrick. I lived in a village in West Yorkshire between 2002 and 2007 where the 'grooming gang' members turned up to meet their 'girlfriends' from school. Most of my neighbours changed their vote from Labour to the BNP. As you will note, this was 20 years ago. I have obviously followed the story in all its manifestations since. Being told 'nobody knew until Tommy Robinson' and the Tory party joining in with the nonsense and blatant racism has left me completely disorientated. Usually I am quite resilient to being told black is white .... but this week has been something of a whole different order.
Nina Davies
2025-01-10 12:39:46 +0000 UTCThe problem with nonspecific criticisms like this is that it often gets asserted that x was being misrepresented by people who don’t have a coherent argument why they feel that way (usually fans of the guru or randos enforcing some kind of general principle about intellectual charity). You may or may not have something substantive in mind but I’m not inflicting that conversation on myself to find out if there isn’t a single example to back up the assertion.
rooftowel
2025-01-10 12:19:49 +0000 UTCOnly on here! He’s a fickle man.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 11:25:54 +0000 UTCLex is just so annoying to listen to, and it really irritates me that so many people believe he is a wide read, hard working, genius. Not remembering names, or dates, or facts after reading a book, is indistinguishable from only reading the Wikipedia summary. How do more people not notice this?
Jim Murray
2025-01-10 11:22:03 +0000 UTCLove the wholesomeness <3 What a nice thing to read on this cruel cruel internet
mobitobi
2025-01-10 11:12:11 +0000 UTCI find it very interesting to contemplate what prayer is, its different kinds and underlying views. I'm very interested exploring secular early buddhist practices where prayer is rejected and there is only carefull examination of relevent aspects of the mind. In Christuanity prayer looks to me like some way of dealing with deep insecureties and limitations by trying to lean on a idealized parental figure. That probably can feel sometimes very helpful but perhaps lead towards offloading of ethical responsibility and support delusions of supernatural special care and approval - overinflating egos. Just sharing some reflections 😄👍
Andrzej
2025-01-10 10:48:34 +0000 UTCEven though I know he's terrible. And this interview was so cringe I almost couldn't listen. But I have some sympathy for Lex. He's such a bumbling inarticulate nerd! He reminds me of the hero's in a particular sub genre of romance/chic lit. The beta male hero! You know, he's such an awkward nerd, probably with glasses, that the heroine doesn't even notice that he's hot until there's some sort of surprise reveal. Like he has to jump in a pool to save a drowning puppy and loses his shirt in thr process...
Emma
2025-01-10 10:24:16 +0000 UTCWell shit, I’d have showed up to the Manhattan meet-up if I’d known it was happening! I never even heard about it! Matt didn’t mention it on the show, or if he did then I need to get my memory checked.
Edward A.
2025-01-10 10:05:58 +0000 UTCThank you Carolina 🙏 you are right to note the bizarre backwards cultural tendencies! I’m more comfortable with good natured jabs but that is a cultural pathology! I like your response too!
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 09:30:27 +0000 UTCIf Peterson thinks thought and prayer are the same…I’m not sure he’s doing thinking right.
barbara wright
2025-01-10 09:02:06 +0000 UTCThe sad truth is, that none of these people are intellectual heavyweights, and they lack the courage to admit to themselves that they’re not particularly smart. If you’re not brave enough to challenge yourself, how are you going to challenge anyone else?
barbara wright
2025-01-10 09:00:37 +0000 UTCOk, glad it’s not just me!
Edward A.
2025-01-10 08:47:36 +0000 UTCToday in the intro, there was another charming self deprecating anecdote about Chris not performing well at rock climbing and then being slightly embarrassed by feeling what he perceived as pitying looks from those around him. Maybe this is just a cultural difference as an American but if a friend told me that story I would probably encourage him to keep going, not give up on the gym, and not to feel badly about perceived slights from the other people there. However the correct response from Matt seemed to be to rib him about the incident with jabs at his looks and his age, which I felt the urge to rebut, but am aware that this is probably unwelcome. Which is to say that probably one of the reasons I enjoy this podcast is that you are both confusing, but in a charming self effacing way. Also I think you could probably wrangle much larger events based on your personalities than a few people in New York if you ever bothered to promote yourselves. But you do you!
Carolina Sunshine
2025-01-10 08:39:23 +0000 UTCI listened to Lex's Zelensky interview. I knew Lex was earnest. I knew he was a thinly veiled MAGA hack masquerading as a centrist. But what I didn't realize is that he's actually a rank moron. I don't know how anybody with half a brain can listen to that and still buy his intellectual schtick. And what really annoyed me the most is how much of a weasel he is. He doesn't even have the guts to ask Zelensky directly about the MAGA tropes his audience believes. He doesn't have the guts to ask because he doesn't have the stomach to see Zelensky knock them down and point out how absurd they are. The entire spectacle was pathetic.
Ad Tastic
2025-01-10 08:19:34 +0000 UTCI would love to hear Matt and Chris take on the trad wives movement. Although maybe its hard since most of the trad wives are less about talking and making arguments and more about just making pretty videos about cooking. But surely there must be some talky trad wives as well.
Emma
2025-01-10 08:12:59 +0000 UTCAndy, I appreciate your encouragement to open my mind, and I genuinely think that’s what I’m trying to do here. I’m not dismissing Peterson outright, I’m engaging with his ideas because I want to understand them better. But opening my mind doesn’t mean I have to accept his framing without question. Critical thinking involves evaluating whether a particular way of presenting an idea helps or hinders understanding. I’m fully open to the possibility that Peterson’s metaphors work for some people, and I respect that. But I also believe that if we can express the same ideas in a clearer, less metaphor-laden way, it might make those ideas more accessible to a broader audience. Opening my mind doesn’t mean accepting mysticism as necessary when there might be a more precise way to talk about subconscious processes. Earlier, you took issue with my use of the word ‘straightforward,’ and I think that highlights where we might still be misunderstanding each other. When I said subconscious processing is ‘straightforward,’ I didn’t mean to suggest it’s simple or fully understood by science. I meant that it can be discussed in a clear, secular way without relying on loaded or mystical terms. This is where I believe our disconnect may lie. You seem to be arguing that Peterson’s language is necessary to convey the depth of the unknown, while I’m questioning if that same language creates unnecessary barriers to understanding by introducing terms with heavy historical and religious baggage. So while I hear you on the importance of Peterson’s language to some, I’m still wondering: Do you think opening my mind means embracing his specific style, or is there room to question whether his approach is the most effective way to convey these ideas to everyone, especially those who might prefer a more straightforward or secular framework?
HustleTron9000
2025-01-10 07:55:57 +0000 UTC@DTG: This is another thing I've seen you guys do more than once when it comes to Peterson. You interpret things he says differently from how he means them, then you accuse HIM of 'semantic wordplay', because you are interpreting concepts differently from how he means them, and you are NOT understanding his thinking. Again, this is where steelmanning would be valuable. (The best thing would actually be to have a one-on-one discussion with him, which I would pay to see, but unfortunately will never happen.) I know you think you understand him, and his arguments. But as an observer from the sidelines, I'm telling you there's often a gap between what he means, and what you guys reflect your meaning of him to be. And as a fan of what you guys do, I'm trying to help you see something you aren't seeing. Not that it makes me right and you wrong. But there IS a blind spot here. He speaks a different language. But it's not an invalid one. Any more than the fact that some people speak French, and I speak English. But for me to say French is banal and obfuscatory would be ridiculous, simply because it's not the language *I* speak. You may not like the language he uses. You may not like his style. But that says nothing about whether the ideas he discusses are valid or not. You keep referring to dictionary definitions, and 'the way everyone else refers to things', etc. And that's part of where you go wrong. You have to understand him for what HE is saying, which is not the way you are hearing him. Often because you're relying on dictionary or popular definitions, which are NOT the things he's referring to when he speaks in metaphor. If we're going to appeal to authority here, I'll counter by saying a LOT of people find personal value in the things Peterson says. He's lifted a lot of people out of a lot of dark places through what he does, and there is ample evidence of that, if you study his fans. I am not one of those people. I don't pray, and don't personally find value in many/most of the things he says. However I know that many others do, and that led me to want to more deeply understand why that is, even though I'm not one of them. And I understand why that is now. All I can say is that I would heartily encourage both of you to open your minds a bit, and try to see more of the thing you aren't seeing.
Andy
2025-01-10 07:48:18 +0000 UTCWe have Uniqlo in Melbourne and all my friends love it!
Emma
2025-01-10 07:28:09 +0000 UTCNo problem for me too, trying to sort out with Patreon.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 07:18:28 +0000 UTCI passed upon the radiant light of my telephone screen, and this decoding the gurus episode beheld my gaze. The vigour and pride with which both Chris and Matt achieved such astonishing clarity in their dissection of Andrew Huberman’s fraught, inconsistent claims is remarkable. It is with sacred, probing tenacity and honesty that they pursue their mission, and not an over statement to claim that the Holy Spirit must be guiding them. All intelligent people believe in God. I can only assume that they have added prayer to their stack.
Chris Clark
2025-01-10 07:16:26 +0000 UTCYou're right that the subconscious is complex and mysterious, we don’t fully understand it. But that’s not the issue here. The problem isn’t acknowledging mystery. It’s that Peterson wraps a real, practical concept,interfacing with the subconscious, in a layer of unnecessary mysticism and religious metaphor, calling it ‘prayer.’ Sure, ‘prayer’ as a word has persisted for millennia, but it carries heavy cultural and religious baggage. Using it in this context doesn’t clarify what’s happening, it muddies it by invoking ideas that aren’t necessary to explain subconscious processing. You’re saying it’s helpful for some people, and that’s fair, but Peterson isn’t just offering a helpful metaphor. He’s framing it as though thought itself evolved from religious practices like prayer, which is a speculative leap. That’s where it gets problematic. No one’s rejecting the idea that focusing intent and letting the subconscious work can lead to insights. The critique is that Peterson presents it as something more profound and foundational than it needs to be. It’s fine to acknowledge mystery, but when Peterson uses mystical language and metaphors without clearly distinguishing between metaphor and reality, it risks turning what could be a clear concept into something unnecessarily obscure. That’s why people push back, it’s not about rejecting mystery, it’s about rejecting mystification. Do you think this kind of framing genuinely helps people understand the process better, or does it risk alienating those who would otherwise appreciate a clearer, more secular description of subconscious engagement?
HustleTron9000
2025-01-10 07:15:38 +0000 UTCIs it just me or is it not showing up on the Galaxy Brain feed?
FolkSong
2025-01-10 07:15:12 +0000 UTCSee the last post. Words have widely understood and commonly used meanings- this is how language works. Redefining words so that they conflate separate concepts and using them in ways where you switch ambiguously between concepts to suit your argument, is not typically intended to aid clarity but rather to obscure and increase perceptions of profundity. I have no issue with introspective practices or prayer or the benefits that people find them to offer them. I have an issue with semantic word games being used to support bad arguments and bog-standard religious polemics. You can understand the complexity of the brain without believing in God, thought is not 'secularised prayer' under any standard usage of the word 'prayer'. And as far as this conversation goes, it seems like the person most bothered is you. I would suspect this is because you find prayer to be personally beneficial and find Peterson's framing to have value and that this might make the criticism feel more personal and sensitive? In any case, you are perfectly free to disagree with us, but I do not think it makes the weaknesses in the logic and arguments being employed go away.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 07:09:12 +0000 UTCAs a huge X-Files fan, I loved hearing all the mentions of David Duchovny, and I laughed really hard at Chris pointing out that Huberman was juggling like 6 women at a time whilest blaming Californiacation's fictional exploits for the death of morals in our society. I also had to laugh at the fact this was kind of a dated reference, as Californiacation had its finale 10 and a half years ago 🤣. Hopefully nobody tells him about all the teens getting sexy on Gossip Girl, or how Murphy Brown had a baby out of wedlock 🤣
Jacqueline Stolz
2025-01-10 07:05:48 +0000 UTC@HustleTron9000: I disagree that it isn't helpful or useful. YOU may not think it is, and perhaps you are a master at manifesting all the things you want in life, exactly how you want them. However there is more to what Peterson is describing than simply 'thinking', 'reflection', or 'problem solving'. Those things are more immediate or short-term. The thing Peterson is referring to is interfacing with the latent SUBCONSCIOUS capability of the mind. And that is by no means a 'straightforward mental process'. (Neither you nor anyone can explain how it works.) He's referring to prayer as a mental practice, similar to but not identical to meditation, that not everyone actively practices, but that anyone can learn. And like meditation, it does not come naturally to all people. It's the practice of focusing your intent on something, then letting the subconscious realm (which some may call your subconscious mind, and others may call God) do the thing it does, which indeed can seem magical at times (because any advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from magic). Again, I think you guys are getting too hung up on the words being used to describe it, suggesting they are somehow unnecessary or overly complex. And you seem to be rejecting them because of any 'mystical' context. But you know what? These things literally ARE mystical, in that they are full of mystery. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that, and it's actually pretty intellectually honest to acknowledge a bit of mystery in a thing we have absolutely no fucking idea how it works. The words Peterson uses may not resonate with you personally, or may even bother you in some way. But the words are just a wrapper for the thing those words point to. And there's a reason they have persisted for millennia (which i personally find mystery in, because I don't fully understand that myself). But if that wrapper makes it easier for people to understand and digest the idea inside, the words serve a memetic purpose. So what's the problem?
Andy
2025-01-10 06:59:46 +0000 UTCI generally don't have much issue understanding Peterson's arguments. I just find them banal, obfuscatory, and far too much to rely on bespoke definitions and semantic wordplay. If you can replace 'God' with the 'subconscious' that is not what God means for the vast majority of people in the world or throughout history. It's conflating a separate concept from psychology in a way that will appeal to those who find religion appealing but prefer to consider it from a psychological or more secularised/philosophical perspective but beyond that I doubt it is doing much good. Peterson's argument here, in so far it actually refers to prayer, in the religious sense of the term and commonly used definitions is wrong. Saying lower-level cognitive activity that does not require conscious self-reflection, developed earlier than higher-level conscious reflective processes, is one of those banal insights I mentioned before. What is the alternative? That highly complex brains developed prior to simpler ones? What Huberman and Jordan are discussing is Huberman's new prayer practice focused on the bible and interacting with an external force. That is not the same thing as a fly's non-reflective cognitive systems.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 06:40:20 +0000 UTC@DTG: Simply substitute 'God' with 'the subconscious', and that might be the bridge between what Peterson is saying and what you are hearing. All I can tell you is there are a lot of times where I understand what Peterson is saying. And I see you guys react to it in a way that shows me you are not understanding him in the same way, and not in the way he intends. That's not to say I'm a fanboy of his, nor do I agree with everything he says. But there are times where I just wish you guys would try harder to actually steelman (i.e., make a best-faith effort to reflect the other person's viewpoint is as positive a perspective as possible). Again, with respect I think you're getting too hung up on the words, and not the thing the words point to. If one focuses the mind, and focuses intent on an idea, wish, or otherwise, in a way that interacts with the subconscious (i.e., the 'realm beyond', if you want to use mystical language), and that potentially changes your relation to it in a way that brings you future benefit, what difference does it make if you call it God or the subconscious? The basic idea is quieting the mind, and focusing intent on a problem or desire. And when you do that, it isn't that hard to understand that doing so can make it more likely to happen (not for mystical reasons, but simply because you focus more attention on it, and attention is key to creating or influencing outcomes.)
Andy
2025-01-10 06:31:30 +0000 UTCUse the basic definition from any dictionary. Here is the first one from Merriam-Webster. 1. a: an address (such as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought said a prayer for the success of the voyage Here is the first one from Google... noun a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or an object of worship. "I'll say a prayer for him" How do we know animals do not do this? Because we have no evidence of prayer from comparative psychology research and no evidence that any other species understand the concepts of God(s) or worship. The best you can get is rock piling in hollow trees and rain dances in Chimpanzees both of which are very rarely observed and would be highly contested as evidence of prayer. If you redefine prayer to mean interacting with or making use of subconscious mental activity then you have just redefined prayer to mean something that the term does not usually refer to. Such a conflation is typically used by Peterson in a strategically ambiguous way. It is exactly the same argument as suggesting that science requires being religious, because religion means searching for truth.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 06:16:27 +0000 UTCNot directly related to the episode, except that I am in Vietnam at the moment having my first shopping experience at Uniqlo & listening to the pod, and I thought of you Chris! Nice quality clothes
Lillie
2025-01-10 06:04:09 +0000 UTCYou know the person who you used to be listed in the Canon that hasn't been the few years. Sam Harris.
Kyle
2025-01-10 05:58:44 +0000 UTC@DTG: Regarding 'how many animals pray', can you define what you mean by prayer, and explain how you know they don't do it? Not to sound too much like Peterson, but I think it's important to define those terms here. With all respect, I think you're getting too hung up on the word 'prayer'. I interpret (and I think Peterson would be able to see if not agree with this view) that prayer simply refers to the act of trying to interact with the realm of information and knowledge that exists below the conscious level. And I don't mean that in a mystical way, but rather the very real way. There exists a world of information inside our skulls but below our consciousness, that we do not have conscious access to, but we potentially can influence and interact with through activities like meditation, prayer, and even just sustained critical thought (which I consider related but not all the same). So when Peterson says 'prayer came before thought', I just hear him saying that lower-level consciousness (i.e., mental processing at the subconscious level) evolved before the higher-level human consciousness or 'thought' that we have today. And I don't think anyone disagrees with that.
Andy
2025-01-10 05:58:11 +0000 UTCWhen Peterson uses the term 'secularized prayer,' he seems to be suggesting that the process of thinking, particularly creative or contemplative thought, is akin to the practice of prayer but stripped of its overt religious context. He’s framing thought as a kind of ritual where you set an intention, focus deeply, and wait for insights to emerge, much like someone might pray for guidance or clarity. The problem with this framing is that it isn’t really necessary or helpful. We already have well-established ways of describing reflection and problem-solving without invoking religious or mystical terms. By calling it ‘secularized prayer,’ Peterson adds a layer of metaphor that makes it sound profound but doesn’t actually offer new understanding. Instead, it risks conflating a straightforward mental process with something quasi-spiritual, which can obscure more than it clarifies. Does that line up with what you think Peterson means when he uses the term "secularized prayer"? Or where do we differ?
HustleTron9000
2025-01-10 05:43:03 +0000 UTC@HustleTron9000: What from your perspective do you think Peterson means when he uses the term 'secularized prayer'?
Andy
2025-01-10 05:32:33 +0000 UTCHe will act on plenty of crazy stuff. He is not invading Canada or Greenland.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 05:30:51 +0000 UTCAbsolutely what HustleTron9000 said. Also, we do not understand everything about how the human mind works but we do understand many things about cognition, attention, problem-solving, and introspection. And I'd add with very high confidence that the notion that 'prayer' came before thought has absolutely no basis in anything but Peterson's devotion and semantic word games. Many other animals show all indications of having thoughts... how many animals pray?
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 05:29:54 +0000 UTCAndy, I get where you're coming from on wanting more steelmanning, but you're missing the point of the critique. The issue isn’t whether prayer or meditation can be beneficial, it’s Peterson’s claim that critical thinking itself is ‘secularized prayer.’ That’s a metaphysical leap, not just a mindfulness tip. You’re focusing on the practical benefits of reflection, which nobody’s denying, but Matt and Chris were pushing back on his framing of thought as inherently spiritual. Dismissing that as ‘word salad’ might not be perfect, but calling it out as pseudo-profound isn’t blind, it’s the core critique.
HustleTron9000
2025-01-10 05:10:54 +0000 UTCI wish I could be as confident as you guys on that Trump will not act on all the crazy shit he says. I don't think we are calibrated correctly to determine what to take seriously this term, since there are no checks or guard rails now. There's been some press on how insiders claim he's actually more serious about Greenland than we're used to. I hope I'm wrong and look forward to not taking anything he says seriously again.
332
2025-01-10 05:08:59 +0000 UTCRegarding, "Is considering a problem and assessing the solutions, 'a form of secularized prayer'", Peterson wasn't referring to assessing the solutions. He was talking about bringing the idea into your mind in a focused way. The idea being that quieting your mind, and dropping the pebble of an idea into your consciousness can cause ripples that might not otherwise happen. It could be in terms of changing your perception, so you notice the world around you differently afterwards. Or, that a solution 'comes to you' in the following days, simply because you give the cells in your skull a chance to process it differently, and let them do the mystical things they do, however they do it. We DO NOT understand how the human mind works. But we've all had the experience of figuring a problem out after letting it 'simmer on the brain' for a few days. Meditiation and prayer are just forms of 'hacking' that process (for lack of a better term), which can affect how it operates. And how it operates is literally how we perceive and understand the world. So it doesn't have to be a mystical thing, but that's the language some people have used to discuss and communicate it to date. And it doesn't have to be wrong or bad. And that doesn't mean there's nothing there. The mysticism is just very old language for describing an underlying mechanism that we don't understand fully (yet) in the language of science. They're both the same candy bar, just with a different linguistic wrapper. But it can be too easy to get overly focused on the wrapper, and miss what's inside.
Andy
2025-01-10 05:08:45 +0000 UTCYeah, I just disagree with that Andy. Matt referred to it as a word salad, and while I have no problem following the logic I would agree that it was a case of inserting pseudo-profound religious mysticism to support an extremely flawed core argument: namely this was part of the broader argument that thought = secularised prayer. Here is the relevant segment... " Imagine that, to have it in, to have an informative intuition. means that you posit a question, like, and that's a form of humility. It's like, There's something I need to know that I don't know, that I could know, that I'd like to know. It's like, so you set the stage. Well, once you set the stage, the probability that a creative idea will enter the theater of your imagination is much enhanced. That's the first stage of revelation. Then you have to assess that. That's discriminating the spirits, you might say. You're separating the wheat from the chaff. That's critical thinking. But all of that, as far as I can tell, is something approximating. secularized prayer, set your aim, then observe the manifestation of that aim, that aim. It's not, it's not even magical, it's how your perception works. Now there's a magic to it, because I suppose the magic is that you can think up something you never thought up before. How the hell do you do that?" Is considering a problem and assessing the solutions "something approximating secularized prayer"? No, I don't think so. If you pray and find it valuable, I do not think it requires endorsing this kind of metaphorical obscurantism. You can call refer to discernment as 'separating the wheat from the chaff' but that does not mean it is inherently a spiritual/prayer based action.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 04:43:11 +0000 UTCI'm referring to Peterson's comments to which one of you responded (and I'm paraphrasing), "What a bunch of word salad, he just jumps through 8 different ideas here." Jordan was simply talking about how prayer quiets the mind, and can focus your intent, and when you take time to do that regularly, it can have a positive influence on your life, perception, and experience.. That's really no different than meditation, and it's really just another form of it, The same candy bar, with a different wrapper. So if you're a fan of meditation in terms of the personal benefits it can bring to one's existence, you should have no disagreement with anything Peterson (or Huberman for that matter) said with respect to prayer. That's not to say I'm trying to defend everything else either of them said, or that I even agree with them. But there are times when I really wish you did more work to at least see what the other person is trying to say (genuinely steelmanning), even if you don't see it the same way. The thing that makes these guys great gurus is that they mix a reasonable amount of truth with their bullshit. (Again, not that I'm defending THEM, but rather the ideas they discuss that have merit.) And your commentary would be a lot better if it didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Andy
2025-01-10 04:36:14 +0000 UTCDestiny's motor voice is your PED
Adam Sher
2025-01-10 04:32:06 +0000 UTCIf he claimed meditation was the basis of thought? Yes that would be equally wrong. But if you mean more generally would be critical of someone who was invoking their beliefs in meditation to support their views… yes. See Sam Harris.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 04:24:55 +0000 UTCYou’re entitled to your opinion Andy but you should provide some specifics. I don’t find anything out of the ordinary in what Peterson & Huberman were talking about it. It’s both their usual shticks and it really isn’t 100% probably that thought is secularised prayer, you can’t appreciate the complexity of the brain without having some belief in God, and Joe Rogan actually isn’t an open minded truth seeker.
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 04:19:24 +0000 UTCI'm no fan of either. But the analysis of the Peterson/Huberman discussion is so poor in this episode, it's actually making me consider cancelling my Patreon sub. You guys REALLY need to start doing more steelmanning of your subjects' viewpoints before tearing them apart. You severely missed the mark on this one, not accurately representing either of their views. I can see what both of them are saying in their discussion, and I can see that you didn't, and miscast it as something it wasn't. I love you guys, but you both have some enormous blindspots sometimes.
Andy
2025-01-10 04:11:56 +0000 UTCTrue! I must be the only gym bro that is not listening to Joe Rogan or some other red pilled dipshits while working out. Here is me a libtard cuck listening to DTG or Destiny lol.
Kyle
2025-01-10 03:47:49 +0000 UTCYou listen to something other than Pumping Iron while working out? Do you even lift, bro.
Adam Sher
2025-01-10 03:42:04 +0000 UTCBret W is operating on another dimension. What is above S Tier?
Adam Sher
2025-01-10 03:37:10 +0000 UTCOk team. Lets see how many thumbs up we can get for seeing this video of Chris plummeting into his embarrassment 🤣
Kyle
2025-01-10 03:35:56 +0000 UTCNo one wants to see that Kyle!
Christopher Kavanagh
2025-01-10 03:33:08 +0000 UTCAlso how much extra would it cost us to see the video of you falling off the bouldering wall, Chris?
Kyle
2025-01-10 03:18:33 +0000 UTCHells yeah DTG. Just jumping on Elliptical after weights and was gonna resort to god knows what. SM it is!
Kyle
2025-01-10 03:08:14 +0000 UTC
