Brené Brown episode is OUT!
Added 2021-11-26 01:06:04 +0000 UTCHere we are, after some delays... our Brené Brown episode is finally released.
We recorded when both feeling slightly more grumbly than usual so apologies for any additional doses of cynicism beyond the norm.
Our editor suggested that we could title the episode: “Our Thanksgiving release: America sucks and kids shouldn’t follow their dreams”.
There's some truth to that but the reality is that we are both fond of the good ol' US of A and realise it does contain multitudes... so it's really more American self-help culture that is our kryptonite. Anyway, apologies to our US listeners if we aim our criticisms too broadly at times.
In any case, will be interested to hear what everyone thinks. Oh and for those who care about this sort of thing there is a Weinstein update too!
Enjoy!
- Chris
Comments
There is one point that i might like a bit of reflection.. and will refer to another analysis of Jordan Peterson that you all might find interesting. This is the comment about 1 hour in about belonging to a group or pretending to be in a group. There is a really good example of this concept and how "self helpers" feed on that phenomenon about 8 minutes into this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m81q-ZkfBm0 can't agree more about the "data" and "research" comments from Brown and the field generally. Even when you listen to Jordan Peterson he will reference individual cases and his qualitative assessment that quickly becomes the antidote for all. Yuck.
Jason Trock
2022-01-10 06:11:22 +0000 UTCI find it interesting to listen to your take on Brene Brown. I’m saying this in part because I work in social work academia. One thing I wonder about is that one thing I’ve noticed is that social work academics tend to be really inductive thinkers and usually use examples to help generalize about larger concepts. I think that social workers are more comfortable as qualitative researchers.I think that’s really different than research psychologists who often look at big data sets and stuff like that. That’s a huge overgeneralization especially since I know people who specialize in big data sets and are social work academics. But I can’t help but wonder if the tendency towards using examples and generalizing from there is just how you get taught to do social work counseling and qualitative research. I just note that in part because I’m a very inductive thinker myself and I can recognize that because that’s how my thought process works. I think pointing out the flaws in that thought process is helpful bc it helps w looking at blind spots and assumptions. One thing I won’t get too far into it is that It’d be really interesting to examine how people view gurus who tend to appeal to women versus gurus who tend to appeal to men. Just on a very basic level, I tend to think that men don’t take certain people seriously if they mostly appeal to women and sometimes I wonder if that creates a cognitive bias. I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing but I think it’s some thing that will be interesting to look at.
JGraves
2021-11-29 04:09:56 +0000 UTCVery nicely articulated. The competing need for mass appeal (in order to be economically viable as a mass product) and the complicated, highly speculative and individual nature of really valuable life advice/insight seems like just the place to look to explain a great deal of this not-entirely-wrong-but-also-not-worth-much-on-close-inspection self-help content. The analysis of the American cultural hunger for it as due to real help not being subsidized I'm a little less sure of -- in Germany, real help in the psychological arena is even less supported. My sense is that there is something valuable in American's willingness to be publicly open about their private struggles and yearning for better/more compassionate ways to organize them/ourselves -- but it can get maudlin and theatrical and cycle without much progress. Do we need the BB's of our culture to make progress on real injustices that have been suppressed into private agonies? Maybe...
Tom Allison
2021-11-28 12:00:36 +0000 UTCI'm going to jump on the bandwagon here of thanking you for pointing out and reminding me of the uniqueness of American self help. I do miss when I used to live in England and Japan, there was just so much less pressure to be the most successful version of yourself as possible, at all times. Like there wasn't an incessant need to perform that role always. I'd forgotten how much less stressful that attitude was. You could enjoy things without having every moment be optimized. Though obviously the English weather, and lack of daylight in the winter, was ridiculously depressing.
Cesare, But Def Not A Borgia
2021-11-28 02:37:07 +0000 UTCPaul's comment bring to mind the book "Quiet" by Susan Cain which explains the American cultural transition from the Abe Lincoln self-reliant depressive introvert model of personhood to the Dale Carnegie everything including you is a brand and that's why you need underarm deodorant model. This manifested in recent years in "personal branding coaches." Check out Cain's book. Barbra Ehrenreich's book dissecting positive thinking culture is also helpful.
john gonsalves
2021-11-27 23:06:11 +0000 UTCSure!
Paul Bowman
2021-11-27 21:18:26 +0000 UTCGreat comments Paul! Might discuss some of these points on next intro if you don’t mind.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-27 19:57:18 +0000 UTCEnjoyed the ep. 2 comments. First on something Matt said re Weisteins, talking about his colleague's (iirc?) concept of the "Hidden World". Made me think of the heterodox sphere as a kind of secular occultism. (Also Bret's continual division of humanity in "high quality" and "low quality" people. yucky) On BB. Content-wise, relatively inoffensive. Her habit of pausing after her "inspirational quote" ready-made soundbites really ****ing annoying tho. Don't think I could listen to too much of that (in fairness I have much the same issue with all of the "sensemakers", who all tend to do this). My general antipathy to self-help is that its basically a con, in that you can't do mass-market, one size fits all, McDonald's psychology. To the extent that people don't have any serious problems, the platitudes of lowest common denominater self-help are basically "meh". To the extent that people are genuinely troubled or struggling, they deserve proper mental health care - which deals with their individual life histories and problems in the context of their specific psychological make-up, neurotype, what have you. It's no surprise that self-help is so popular in a country where millions can't afford access to proper physical and mental health care. Also the cult of personality thing is messed up. It's beyond simple cultural specificities re America, its this hyper-neoliberal "I belong to myself", i.e. I am my own human commodity capital that has to be made shiny and impressive to command the best price in the market. Bleagh. That may be the one thing I would say that pseudo-Buddhism has going for it - i.e. stop obsessing so much over your "authentic self" and just enjoy being alive
Paul Bowman
2021-11-27 19:15:17 +0000 UTCI enjoyed listening to this episode on BB though I agree that, when all is said and done, she’s quite boring (“anodyne” is the word Matt used, I believe). I’m American and think that all of your criticisms of the American self-help movement are totally valid. I’ve never really liked it and think the whole think promotes the sort of individualistic thinking that tears at the fabric of society. Maybe it’s because I spent a few formative years in England as a kid (though didn’t Thatcher say something along the lines of “there’s no such thing as society; we’re a collection of individuals”?) or because I’m old enough not to have been raised by the self-actualized, seeker Boomer generation, I’ve never bought into the idea that the individual is more important than the society. I figure, I’m not the best, I’m not the worst, and I don’t need to go on some quest to find my “true inner self.” In America we fetishize loner cowboys, “bootstrapping,” the idea that we can do it all ourselves, which results in our lack of a meaningful social safety net, but also to the RW “Sovereign Citizen” movement, gun fetishism and all sorts of bad stuff. As harmless as BB seems, I agree that she’s on the same spectrum as JP. Thanks for a great podcast - I’m a big fan!
Jennifer Nelson
2021-11-27 10:02:47 +0000 UTCOoo, I do hope B Brown takes you guys up on the open offer to come on the show to respond - that would be a very fun conversation to hear, intellectually *and* culturally!
Tom Allison
2021-11-27 08:01:58 +0000 UTC😄 well I don't want to be too gross. Here's a small sample: 'as useless as a one legged man in an arse kicking contest'; 'better than a kick up the backside'; 'we're not here to f**k spiders'; 'as obvious as a dog's balls'; 'you may as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb'; ''as useless as tits on a bull'; 'as dry as a dead dingo's donger' and of course 'she'll be right' the most aussie saying I can think off. What a beautiful, poetic culture I have joined. But I think Matt is right. The general theme of aussie sayings seems to be about not taking yourself, or anything else, too seriously.
Emma
2021-11-27 07:57:08 +0000 UTCIt's big(ish) in the UK but comparatively I think it's nothing compared to the US.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-27 06:32:30 +0000 UTCVery interesting thoughts and its probably part of the cost of having a society that values individualism so much.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-27 06:31:29 +0000 UTCInteresting!
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-27 06:27:39 +0000 UTCDo tell!
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-27 06:26:31 +0000 UTCGreat episode! And some really good points about the point of self help and the grandiosity of it. As a kiwi living in Australian the bit about cultural aphorisms really made me laugh 😃 And I wondered is Matt truly couldn't 'remember' any Australian sayings or if the awkward pause was because he was remembering some and then dismissing them all as too crass for the podcast! I love the Australian sense of humour, but its def not G rated.
Emma
2021-11-26 22:10:05 +0000 UTCI’m just laughing because I can hear B Brown saying “don’t let other people’s jealousy keep you from shining brightly” Be the tall poppy!!!” 😂 That being said, I’m inclined to agree with the reservations around flaunting - for a variety of reasons, though I think the Facebook Papers and their implications put such concerns in high definition.
Carolyn Reeves
2021-11-26 18:04:40 +0000 UTCI have lots to say about our Americanness being generally contraindicated for the health of the world; as a society we definitely do NOT promote the messages that will help everyone navigate our collective global mess, God help us! But I came here now to comment on Chris's mention of the wisdom of or hesitation to share happy photos on FB etc. I work with Italian Americans at my job (almost exclusively; I am one of 2 non-Italians on staff), and I have learned that one reason it is traditional not to celebrate publicly is that it tempts the evil eye/fate. It's a bit of a deviation from the tall-poppy, which I gather is more that it is in bad taste to draw attention to yourself and a subtle fuck-you to the rest of the poppies. Whereas the parents of some of my colleagues believe it to be dangerous to be seen rejoicing. Not only will people be sad (as Chris's wife compassionately said) but they will actively wish you ill and maybe even subconsciously work to tear you down. It's powerful, this belief, and also quite wise as regards human nature.
Sian Gibby
2021-11-26 17:41:56 +0000 UTCMatt- your bit at the end of the Brown segment (about being okay with less than extraordinary paths and how it may not be in one’s best interest to over-strive for their ONE TRUE PURPOSE- (that may be a bad summary, apologies)) rings as an antidote to the new age, self-help, individualistic, over-consuming, endless expansion, obsession with being special, always seeking, perpetual discontent, entitlement to greatness, I’m gonna get mine, I can manifest whatever I want, fear of FOMO, fear of insignificance, fear of mortality, selfishness and greed fueled self-improvement hamster wheel that keeps American the self-improvement consciousness (and industry) humming along with no resolve. I think B Brown would probably have a really amenable conversation with you two if she were to come on the show- I don’t imagine her getting defensive and I like to think she’d be able to see the very American frame (oh god those pregnant pauses irk me too) in which her work is presented and the very American qualities of the audience which consumes it. I guess, as an American, I’m contemplating what the nature of the need for that kind of content - why do we have such a precious need to heal our wounded inner selves - do we have a need to make drama at the upper end of Maslow’s hierarchy? Is it the individualistic ideal that is pummeled into our collective psyches from the moment we are sentient- the need to identify as the hero in a hero’s journey (even if we have to invent the reason for the quest)? Or are we harboring scores of genuinely wounded / stunted inner children lacking the benefit of culturally established coping mechanisms? I mean maybe it’s that and it’s definitely more than that, but I find it interesting, and I appreciate the food for thought. I can’t speak for anyone else, but personally I appreciate hearing criticism of American culture, especially from people who aren’t entrenched in it. It’s both validating and enlightening, so pls don’t hold back! Thanks as always.
Carolyn Reeves
2021-11-26 17:12:55 +0000 UTCIs self-help culture not as big outside the U.S.?
Giovanni
2021-11-26 14:17:40 +0000 UTC😉
Grammaticus Gore
2021-11-26 07:51:04 +0000 UTCSurvivorship bias!!! C’mon, haven’t you boys been reading your Nassim Taleb?
Grammaticus Gore
2021-11-26 07:49:53 +0000 UTCHoly Weinstein overload. It seems to me they are taking shots at Sam Harris, who also has real troubles with people who disagree with him.
Tim Tripp
2021-11-26 03:06:57 +0000 UTC
