Patreon Pledge Info & Extra Mythology Update

Oh my you're sweet.

Jonathan Becker

Happy holidays to you as well!

Extra History

Youtube showed they can't be trusted, with the issues surrounding fair use and their unwillingness to tackle those who clearly ignore fair use and abuse the copyright takedown system, to the adpocalypse and then the new systems which demonetize videos via an automated system using algorithms (because that works so well with the copyright situation) which has hit history based channels for mentioning war, or in one confirmed case, being taken down entirely based on talking about ancient weapons. No one can trust Youtube for either income or being a stable and reliable platform for putting out content, and I say this as someone who also puts out content on Youtube, but until there are viable alternatives, it's all we have. (fortunately I have a 9-5 job and zero interest in trying to make my channel profitable)

Fried (Fridge)

Yep, I got the email Thursday and have already reinstated my pledges.

B Tsang

Well, for now, Patreon has actually decided to cancel the planned fee change. They say they're gonna reevaluate and I hope they do a better job solving these problems in their next iteration, but for now, if you wound up dropping your smaller donations elsewhere, you can safely bring them back now! Here's Patreon's post on the subject: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Yeah, I think they did do a lot of damage to themselves with this roll-out and especially with the trust lost between them and creators. I *do* think they genuinely regret that, but I am admittedly saying that as someone who's been to their office multiple times and seen how they operate. But putting your eggs in one basket has always been risky business; there's always a certain give-and-take between not wanting to alienate your audience (by asking too much of them on too many platforms) and needing to make sure that the platforms you're on don't fall apart from under you. I don't even trust YouTube, really. But scheming is a part of my nature so hopefully I've made enough moves to protect EC even if one of our platforms does screw up that badly.

Extra History

As I said on your other post when you announced them walking this change back, I did resub to almost all of the ones I had cancelled, with the exception of one, which I had been thinking of cancelling for a while and is now in the midst of their own controversy, this meant that I could go from my initial $5 pledge to $8, and I am considering supporting others too. I just can't help but feel after their initial insistence that they took their time in walking back the change, after all they did initially defend the change on Twitter amongst the creator backlash, I can only assume that the bad PR got too much for them and the amount of people dropping pledges as well as creators openly talking of going to other services got to the point that they realised that if they carried on, they stand to lose a lot of money and their reputation. Unfortunately for Patreon though, I would say the damage has already been done, this has been described as a wake up call for many creators, creators who were content to have Patreon become their main source of income for what they do, now suddenly putting all your eggs in one basket has become a risky prospect, as such, it looks like people will be using other platforms too, like Drip so if one of these fails only part of the income is lost and not 100% of it. That's why it's a good thing for you guys that you have your store to fall back on, that people can back you in other ways if they want to, and that is now that smart move for any creator.

Fried (Fridge)

For what it's worth, I quite understand, and your action may have helped persuade Patreon to abandon this fee change because YES INDEEDL Patreon has canceled the planned fee change. I know this panic sucked anyway and I'm sorry about that, but hope the cancellation helps. Here's the link to Patreon's post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Some good news there: Patreon has canceled the planned fee change. I know this panic sucked anyway and I'm sorry about that, but hope the cancellation helps. Here's the link to Patreon's post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Cifer makes an interesting point that people who pledge $1 to 200 Creators are as much of a "whale" (NB: I hate that terminology) for Patreon as a platform as someone who pledges $200 to 1 Creator. I do think Patreon underestimated the number of people who were taking that approach - lots of small pledges to multiple people - though I do wonder if they'd rather push those folks to $200 on one Creator. Speaking for myself, I'd rather they didn't push people to do that because I think the distribution of pledges is healthy for the entire Patreon community and it's nice to see a lot of creators get a chance rather than to see people feel like they have to focus their efforts on just one creator they think will be most successful. My musings aside, Patreon has canceled the planned fee change! Although they are planning to change the system in the future, they've promised to work more closely and openly with both creators and patrons to figure out a new system that works well for everyone. I hope they succeed! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

I read you guys' post about it, but nice to see an active reply about it anyway! :D *saunters away to watch the early access of extra history*

Andreas "Rowas" Lind-Sahlin

Hey Martin, sorry for not responding to you here at the time you put this up. I was trying very hard to keep up with the entire thread but eventually needed to step away for a while to recharge... and while I was doing that, they canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a> I hope this change means you can support all the Creators you want to! And yes, I was extremely worried about the impact this change would have on $1 patrons and I'm glad that it's being reversed. Next step is making sure that the payment revisions which will eventually roll out are more fair to patrons (and Creators) across the spectrum.

Extra History

Confirming that I did indeed repledge to all my cancelled creators. Even added a couple I was planning to back next year. Still, this experience has definitely made me more aware that I need to monitor this payment platform. Happy Holidays EC team!

Quintin Ang

Popping back into this thread to let you both know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! If you did happen to make a big $12 pledge that was meant to last the year already, I am happy to refund that pledge for you so you can go back to $1/mo and getting rewards every month. Just send me a DM and let me know! Meantime, here's the link to Patreon's post about this: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Hopefully that allows you to keep pledging at the level you want to pledge at. Here's the link to Patreon's post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you both know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Go back to that coffee shop. :) Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! If you weren't happy with your pledge consolidation you can now reverse it safely (though I'm still sorry you had to go through the trouble.) Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you all know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you both know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! If you want, I can refund your $12 pledge so you can go back to pledging $1 and getting rewards every month. Just send me a direct message and I'll be happy to handle that for you! Here's the link to Patreon's post about this: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change (so if you want to go back to those other creators as well, you can do so safely)! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you both know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

Popping back into this thread to let you all know that Patreon canceled the planned fee change! Here's the link to their post about it: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649">https://www.patreon.com/posts/patreon-cancels-15864649</a>

Extra History

I will support you guys until the heat death of the universe, no worries there. I may have to drop some of my smaller donations, though, yeah. It's weird because I really do support the idea of giving more to the creators; I'm happy that you guys get a bigger cut! But that should come at Patreon's expense, not the patrons, if you ask me.

Denizen Blue

I am cancelling mine as well for all of my donations period to punish patreon, even my ones over $1. If you move to another donation system or patreon fixes their payment system please let us know and I will start donating again. I am only sorry that this will hurt you but I feel I have to take a stand or Patreon will not change.

Daniel Comer

I am cancelling all my $1.00 pledges. It's just not worth it. Extra credits is great if there is a different way to do donate small amounts to you I will.

Scott Glener

Not planning a petition at the moment but I appreciate your willingness to have our backs if we did!

Extra History

Well as I said in my own comment, for some of us, that $1 isn't $1, the changes make it $1.38 but when you add things like VAT and it becomes $1.58. This means if you do 10 $1 pledges then you're paying close to $16 opposed to the $10 you signed up for, even though you would have been paying $12 with VAT. Notice people didn't worry about VAT as it was unavoidable and not Patreon's choice or fault. This change however was Patreon's choice and it has put the costs up quite steeply for those who are doing the $1 pledges. And as the cost of those $1 donations have ramped up quite a lot and many who do them are doing say 10 or 20+ it's fairly obvious that it will hit these people in the wallet the hardest and they will withdraw their support. Also we only have Patreon's word that these charges are no longer aggregated, honestly what they probably do is have one account, take the money out of your account together, then split it out of their account into the creators accounts via bank transfer or something in one lump sum. Paying card companies multiple times is just dumb, pay them once and do the whole thing as one lumped in transaction. That way if they really do want to pass on the charges to the people pledging, by keeping the same system as they had been using, they only need to pay the extra flat fee once, rather than for every single pledge, and then an extra 2-3% on the pledges, so that's 3 cents per dollar. That way if you back ten creators, you're only then paying $10.67 plus VAT opposed to $13.80 plus VAT. Which is the more acceptable model?

Fried (Fridge)

To be honest, I'm not sure. First of all, it seems Patreon doesn't see all that much from the .35 charge as your pledges are no longer aggregated, meaning they have to pay the credit card companies multiple times now. Second, I imagine the Patreon whales are split between 1$ on 200 projects and 200$ on 1 project guys (and those between) and I'm not sure whether the first kind is less valuable to Patreon than the second. I just can't see who this benefits (except for the banks raking in more fees, of course). It seems to be a decision designed to just harm everybody involved - patrons have actually *higher* overhead costs (see <a href="https://twitter.com/wombatoverlord/status/938849760198447104" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/wombatoverlord/status/938849760198447104</a> ) for their donations, creators lose donations from irate patrons, Patreon faces a shitstorm and I presume the entry threshold for starting your very first donation has just gone up, since "I support a creator with a dollar, minus a few fees Patreon needs to keep operating" sounds more reasonable than "I support a creator with a dollar and Patreon tacks on a service charge of *one third* of what I actually want to pay".

Cifer

Seriously, I think most of us are open to signing petitions, or backing you in other ways. Everyone here loves your content. I have a 'It Was Warpole' T-Shirt on my wishlist that I am hoping someone will get me for Christmas I hope Patreon reverse this decision quickly and hopefully backers will return.

Fried (Fridge)

You mean this video? <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U</a> I agree, while Patreon might make most of its money from whales, the content creators, especially the small ones, are being propped up by the small donations, without them those incomes drop to where it no longer seems viable, they will then either seek alternative methods to be funded or have to scale back their content. That then means less content and less content creators for the whales to be backing, which may see them drop away. This is just a bad move, I don't know how they thought it would be anything else, they said they tested and experimented with the idea for a year, but it seems they forgot to do one vital thing, consult with the content creators and with those who actually back the projects in the first place as many creators are saying this will hurt them. They are getting such bad publicity over it that you can't help but wonder what Patreon are going to do, and I also hope that if people are pulling pledges that they look at the data and see that happening and see how it will hurt their bottom line. EC are trying to put a positive spin on this and focus on the 'good' as they have no control over the change, but I think they themselves know this will hurt them, looking at the comments, even looking at the figures per month, it has already started, they hit the target for extra mythology but now they are over $500 below that target. I also would say it will only get worse when those who don't check their messages see that the amount of money going out of their bank accounts has increased and then scramble to delete their pledges. Creators may be getting more of a share from the pledges, but they aren't getting more money if those pledges are in decline. So how is this a good thing? Everyone needs to protest this change, it hurts everyone.

Fried (Fridge)

Right now this is the only way, but thank you for your support so far and I hope you'll continue to enjoy the show free on YouTube every Saturday!

Extra History

I've got conflicting feelings about this change, but one of the topics from an old EC clip seems relevant here: isn't this the same whale targeting in F2P games? The new fee structure from the patron's perspective hurts if you're a $1 patron, but patreon profits more from heavy patrons, those with >$1 pledges, and lots of pledges with the new per-pledge fee. I'd guess if this goes through, patreon would see the same community issues that come with contracting the audience base, and as a long term play would hurt them.

Heli

I doubt people would have had an issue with the service fee alone, but the additional 0.35 USD every pledge will hurt those using patreon, if the service fee is what you guys had to pay before, then that additional is Patreon trying to make extra money and attempting to wave it away as "just changing how we charge things" but it's going to backfire and hurt creators as people will cut those 1 USD pledges. People don't mind giving $1 and can then spread that around to as many content creators they like to support them, but this change actively punishes that. Content creators switched to Patreon because youtube made life hard for them with the adpocolypse, and now Patreon has got greedy wants more money and has made bad business decisions, end result, it's going to hurt content creators. I already have to pay VAT on top of my pledges, to pay a service fee on top of that, and then a fixed charge for every project I back, $1 donations now look like $2 donations (well to be exact, it's going to be over $1.5, as the flat charge and service fee makes it $1.38 add 20% VAT and it's $1.58, then exchange rates and stuff... yeah, it mounts up) and I don't even want to think about the higher pledges. So now I can't back as many people as I want, I am left unsure if I can afford higher pledge tiers for when all the extra fees and things are added in. For now the only thing we can do is protest this change, withdraw all our pledges and hope Patreon realise that it's going to hurt their bottom line I think you guys at EC also know that this is going to hurt you, because how many of your backers are at the $1 level? How many of those back multiple projects? This change will wipe those people out as they either decide to focus on just one project, or withdraw their support from Patreon all together. So on the surface this looks 'great' for you as you get to keep the full donation of a $1 donation, but it's bad for you when those donations become far less.

Fried (Fridge)

I sent Patreon a note calling BS on this for exactly the same reasons - this is obviously a money-grab on their part and has nothing to do with getting more money to creators. If you put together a petition (individually or in conjunction with other creators), I will happily sign it. If there's another option for funding you more efficiently, I'd be open to that as well.

Jonathan

I feel bad about it too, I mean, it's not a great feeling that where we "win" others lose, ya know? But I do appreciate it, truly. And for what it's worth, YouTube Red does help! We've started to see the revenues from that creep up as more people start using it, and it does mean something that one person's view can mean more to us than a fraction of a cent, which is how it goes under the ad-supported model.

Extra History

Per year as an enshrined option wouldn't solve it, I don't think; our artists need food every month, not once a year, ya know? And having that monthly reliable income has meant a lot to us with all the stuff we've planned/launched in anticipation of 2018. But I totally understand you needing to change your pledge and I do support that. We don't currently have any other ways to support us directly, though I have been talking to folks who are switching to YouTube Red or buy some new merch from our DFTBA shop; those do both help!

Extra History

I don't see how this is good for anyone. They could easily have given an option to pay per year in order to reduce those fees for creators and/or supporters. I'm sorry to say I can't continue to give money through Patreon as I do not want to support such a bad business decision. If you do have ANY other option through which I can support you guys, feel free to share it and I'll happily try it.

Just wanted to say you guys made the cut. I really value what you guys do and the content you provide. I just feel really bad about the other 17 creators I had to cut. Guess I will have to try Youtube Red as a way to continue to support those creators I had to cut.

Quintin Ang

Oh, I see what you're saying! Yes, if you look at the full amount paid by patrons and then ask what creators are getting as a percentage of that, the "true cut" (to borrow your phrase) does get wobbly. I think what Patreon are going for is the consistency of reporting from Patreon pledges right now; right now, the system tells me I should be getting let's say 5 $5 pledges i.e. $25, but the actual amount is anywhere from $18-$22 which varies by month. Not gonna lie, that makes financial planning for each month rather difficult, even for us. (I mean, we're paying four artists plus five support staff at the moment; our monthly intake is large but it's not actually a lot to go around.) In the future, if I know for a fact I'll be getting 95% of those five pledges, i.e. $23.75, then I can plan much more securely and that security may honestly matter less to me than the fact that Patreon is in fact still getting a similar percentage as before. To be clear: what we're discussing here is the one intended benefit of the system, so if I seem like I'm all "this is great!" it's because this particular aspect of the change IS part of the good effects they intended. I'd be pretty darn worried if I couldn't even talk about that in a positive light. :P But outside of this specific element, I do still have concerns about some aspects of this, in particular the flat fee per pledge and its outsized impact on small pledges. The only time I EVER look at someone's Patreon pledge when they talk to us on here is if they're suggesting a topic, and that's only because I need to know whether they're part of the $8+ pledge group to give them a helpful reply. Outside of that, I make it a personal point of pride that no patron gets more or less attention from me in any way based on their pledge amount, and the fact that this change makes all our $1 patrons feel like they're getting shafted after we've worked so hard to include everyone in our community really sucks for us as well.

Extra History

I suggest February instead of January! We'll be on holdiay break for part of January, and I figure if you're going to approach it this way (which I totally support), you may as well get the most bang for your buck by getting a whole month of early access episodes instead of just a few weeks. :)

Extra History

I very much understand, Domvina! I would love to see them change the flat fee structure as well but I completely support you making the decision that is best and most comfortable for you!

Extra History

I don't know if we'll open the suggestion box if it becomes a series! We haven't done so for Extra Sci Fi, and to be honest it's been kinda fun watching James rare off in pursuit of his highest passions as far as subject matter goes. (And believe me, you ain't seen nothing yet. He hasn't written episodes for it yet but I've gotten to hear his excitement about some of his favorite books, like Dune, and when we do get there it's gonna be a bonanza). As for the Patreon pledge, hey, we completely understand. We don't want you to get caught by surprise overpaying; that's the whole reason made this post in the first place! If it alerted you the issue before it could become a problem for you and you lowered your pledge as a result, then I am happy that I was able to help raise awareness about that in time. :)

Extra History

No, I completely understand, Porcupine, and for what it's worth as much as I do appreciate all the folks who can stay with us I also think it's vitally important that small creators get support ESPECIALLY right now with so much uncertainty going about. If I can ask for one favor, send those small creators a note letting them know that you HAVE decided to stay so that they know, at the very least, that some of their patrons are staying even with these changes! As for us, I'm happy to know you'll still be watching, and do remember that our episodes are public Patreon posts after they come out on Saturdays so do feel free to swing by and prickle us from time to time. :)

Extra History

I'm aware of Drip and I'm looking into it as a service because I think it's important for me to stay aware of what options are out there, but I have to say that right now I'm not looking to leave Patreon at all. I'm not entirely happy with how they've introduced this change but I do believe long-term in their commitment to make things right, and as long as that's the case I consider them a partner worth having. Like all partners, they can just be frustrating sometimes. ;)

Extra History

They can be set in dollars and cents, but I won't be changing our reward tiers to account for the change on the patron-side, I'll be straight up with you about that. In my opinion, that would only give us the worst of both worlds: people already leaving Patreon to protest the extra fees AND we get less from those who stay because we've lowered our pledge values. Not to mention that if these fees ever get changed again, I would have to change the pledge amounts again and just... I'm sorry, I know that appeals to some people as a solution, but not for me. If you're not cool with that, I understand and won't hold it against you!

Extra History

Aw, thank you so much! We'll try to keep being worthy of it, promise. :)

Extra History

Yeah, I was thinking yesterday it'd be nice if they'd created a pledge calculator where you could easily put in how many pledges you had (and the amount) to see how much the increase would be for you. I figure that might scare away some people or make them lower pledges when they see what the difference would actually be but then... good? I mean, I'd certainly rather see people leaving because they KNOW they can't afford this change than have everyone stressing over what the impact would be. And while the numbers can be calculated mathematically if you want to, it does make it so much easier to just be able to have a look.

Extra History

That very much is the end result of it, i.e. pushing towards consolidated pledges to avoid the flat fee per pledge. It's not the happiest of worlds but I'm glad you found a way to do it that works for you!

Extra History

Honestly, I agree. I like Patreon's service and I want them to get money so they can keep their company running; I said this elsewhere, but as far as percentage-cuts go they take significantly less than literally everyone else we work with. But the flat fee per pledge absolutely hits hard for multi-pledge patrons like yourself, and I KNOW how important that kind of pledge distribution is not only for creators, but for patrons who want to show all their favorite artists that they care.

Extra History

Sorry. the $0.35 portion of the formula makes monthly giving very inefficient. I'll just give 12x every January and cancel until next year. (Canceling in December and doing this in January to make sure Patreon doesn't get the wrong ideas when they look at their metrics.)

B Tsang

Fair enough. Also, sorry, I explained poorly - I meant that many creators would get less as a % of the total paid by the patron (example: a $5 pledge in the new system costs $5.50 and the creator gets $4.75, so the true cut is 86%). Most creators I've seen talking about this were reporting a total cut in the old system of 85-90%, so I think some creators will end up with more, some with less, depending on whether they're mainly supported by few large pledges or many small ones. This is all assuming everyone adjusts their pledges down to compensate, and we don't see signifigant cancels.

Michael Lang

I'm hopeful they'll change their formula until then I too will have to cut back on my pledges. Such a shame.

DezzieArts

I completely understand, and I hope so too! I do have a lot of faith in their good intentions as a company so I really hope they're taking this intial feedback wave into consideration, but until or unless they announce a change, I'm personally proceeding under the assumption that this plan is going to move forward as it's currently been announced and I can onyl do my best to keep people informed about the way it will impact them! Thanks for continuing to support us. <3 I would totally understand if you had to leave, but you've been with us for so long that it'd be sad to see you go!

Extra History

One thing I want to clear up is that creators DO get more money per pledge under this system. I've seen a couple of folks saying otherwise, but my research and understanding of the change as it's been proposed is that creators do get more money since they're no longer paying a service fee, BUT since patrons have to pay more to make that happen, we may lose out on the number of pledges and therefore make less money in total. That remains to be seen. But I don't think it is or should be up to patrons to try to worry about/anticipate what creators may or may not face in bulk pledge amounts; that's for us Creators to figure out. What matters to you folks is can you afford the increase to your personal pledges, and if the answer is no, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with curtailing your current pledge levels as a result. We do not want anyone to get caught by surprise over this and run over their budget. Take care of yourselves first. Also, as to Ruthalas's point that the flat fee is the biggest issue: I agree so much. I can see the benefit of what Patreon is trying to do to stabilize Creator income, but for *patrons* with lots of pledges spread across multiple creators, the flat fee hits disproportionately hard. And that's a lot of patrons, from my observation.

Extra History

Well I will say that I very much appreciate your support, though I'm sorry that it's for reasons that aren't what you wanted! I would recommend you make a note to pledge that $12 in February, when you will get the most out of it, as we'll be on vacation for part of January and there won't be as much early access for you to enjoy. (The rest of the pledge rewards are monthly so it won't be as much of an impact.) Anyway, however you want to approach it, thank you and I'm sorry for the inconvenience!

Extra History

So there's two points to address here: one, the fees are not the same. They HAVE increased, on your (the patron) side of the equation. We were losing 10-20% of each pledge to service fees, and the additional surcharge is as much as a 30% increase for smaller pledges. It's actually smaller for larger pledges which I do think is, uhhh, backwards to put it politely. Not that I want to charge our bigger patrons more, just that I'm aware that patrons with smaller pledges are pledging less for a reason. As for Creators getting less, all of my research says no, Creators will absolutely earn more per pledge, and I'd be curious to see the sources you've been looking at that show otherwise. There are no longer variable service fees being charged to Creators for each pledge that's made to them, and that money now goes straight to the Creators. That said, this system does ask patrons (especially $1-5 patrons) to bear a larger amount of the burden, and there's a pretty good chance that pushes a number of people in those pledge tiers to just abandon Patreon entirely. The chilling effect on those kinds of smaller pledges may mean that Creators earn less in aggregate, even if they're making more on individual peldges. And while everyone speculates, I don't think anyone (including Patreon!) really KNOWS how that will shake out at this point. Does that make sense?

Extra History

I would bet that Patreon was already charging a fee per pledge in some way. Making this visible to patrons may indeed cause people to support fewer creators, and that's a problem. I would have preferred they figured out a better way to structure the fee out of the pledge rather than a flat fee on each.

David Harkness

Ah yeah that makes the most sense especially for the first series, and it will be fun especially since the actual Greek mythology is incredibly weird and very very different from the "pop culture" version of Greek mythology. I'm rather excited for it.

Salted Potater

They're gonna be starting with Greek mythology but that's normal. This all began with the Punic wars, and how many times have you heard about Hannibal? We'll prepare our obscure topics for the suggestion boxes and knock it out of the park!

Ryan Wojciechowski

No, I was paying $5 and the creator payed a fee. And as a simple fact I now would have to pay 20% more so that creators get roughly the same money. That the old way had some fluctuation isn't great but that still applies because the patrons can sign up and leave at any time. Same goes for sales and ad revenue. If you want a steady income you get a 9-5 job with decent pay. Sorry, no defence for Patreon on this one. This will hurt the small creators with a high percentile of low level pledges the most. And this is the very bottom of it.

Tim Albers

Oh man this sucks. I'll still be a patron but I think i might have to lower my tier unfortunately. Might go back again if the money situation gets better in the future :/ Question about the Extra Mythology tho, if it becomes a series will we also be able to suggest further topics? One of the reason I adore Extra History is because you are one of the few creators that dig into the cool unknown but extremely important stuff in history that not many people know of, rather than just sticking to like Rome or something, so I was wondering if you'll explore some of the more different and exciting mythologies like the old-Slavic myths or Dreamtime.

Salted Potater

Thanks for the heads-up, but if I could afford to spend 140% of what I spend now on pledges, I would already be doing it. As it is, congrats to Patreon for being Grand Masters of shooting themselves in the foot; they already managed to piss off lots of fine folks with their recent draconian content policy changes, but now I effectively have to cancel and downsize pledges until I get back to the original level - I'm sure we're all better off for it, way to go geniuses. Incidentally, since I have to try protecting the less well-off at the expense of the others, I'm afraid this is where we must part ways. I'll still be watching though, but I'll miss you guys... keep on keeping on, good luck, and thanks for all the fish...!

Porcupine

The issue is not (only) that the transaction fee is moving to the customer, it's that it is duplicated for each pledge. I will be paying a single lump sum to Patreon in the coming months, but 30% of that will now be the transaction fee duplicated for every pledge that composes my total payment. The flat fee is the biggest issue, because it penalizes anyone who pledges small amounts to multiple creators by charging the transaction fee for every single pledge. (Assuming I stay with Patreon. I can't really afford a 30% increase in my payment, and am not thrilled to cut 30% of my pledges.)

Ruthalas

How about setup an account with Kickstarter's Drip?

horace chan

Sigh.. I will go ahead make a one time donation of $12 then cancel my subscription. Please remind me to donate again next year, I might forget.

horace chan

In defense of Patreon, you were already paying the fee. Instead of pledging $5, you were actually pledging $4.40 and paying a $0.60 fee (or w/e it came out to). The problem was that because the number of patrons for each creator fluctuated, the effect of those fees also fluctuated. A creator with pledges of $100/mo couldn't reliably count on $80 or $85 or $75 from month-to-month. That makes planning difficult. Moving the fee to the patron makes it reliable for both parties. Patrons will always pay the same service fee based on the number and amount of their pledges, and creators will always lose exactly 5% of their pledges. I'm happy to make life easier forever for the creators I support, and anyone who goes over their spending limit needs to adjust their pledges just this one time.

David Harkness

Can reward tiers be set only in flat dollars? or dollars and cents?

BeAuMaN

Thanks for letting us know. Seems like all those who I patreon are sending out similar messages. I'm not changing my pledge. I already cleared out a few creators I lost interest in supporting. You're worth the extra 50 cents.

Jason Youngberg

This change would be more comfortable with a very visible summary of all pledges and their associated fees. Getting a flee impulse, but to afford the change I'll switch from coffee shops to carrying a thermos, with one day-of-week exception.

Jonathan Becker

This sounds like a disaster for patrons who go for the option of multiple small payments per month. I've consolidated a bunch of my small patronages into a few big patronages as a result.

GooGhoul

Oh my word give us the go ahead and we will find the most harebrained connections you could imagine.

Ryan Wojciechowski

I am dying of envy over here, I would LOVE to have one once I get a more regular income. They're the only other youtube channel I'd actually support because their works are so awesome.

Ryan Wojciechowski

its aggravating that this will probably hurt a lot of creators, as some people will have to drop their support, being forced to choose which of them to keep....

Ronnie

As someone that prefers to give $1 to a bunch of people rather than a high amount to just a few people this change is annoying. I'm totally fine with Patreon taking a percentage cut and I don't really care which side is paying the fees, but the flat fee per pledge seems unjustified. According to them it's to recoup payment processing fees, but they only make one charge anyway. I'd much rather have a single flat fee whenever I'm being charged and then a percentage from each pledge. As it stands, the new method just discourages small pledges (which are as I understand the bread and butter for creators) for no reason.

NekuSoul

Thank you for the heads up, I'm having to trim my number of pledges. It's not that I spend too much on Patreon, but globally there are too many things pulling from my bank account and I want to respect my self-imposed Patreon limit. You stay as-is, though. I hope Patreon thinks of something to counter this move's effect of discouraging pledging to many creators, because I can't see how this is good for anyone.

Nosgoroth

Are you sure that the new fees are exactly the same as what was being charged to creators under the old model? Because all the sources I can find seem to show that, assuming all patrons step down their pledges so they're still paying the same amount as before, the creators will end up with less money than before.

Michael Lang

Thanks for the heads up. I did the maths and I am currently at $40 per month... after the changes it will be $48. Sadly my resources are limited so 7 - 8 pledges on various creators will have to go. Great work Patreon, great work *slow clap*

Tim Albers

I understand, Stefan, please don't worry about it! The reason I made this post was specifically to make sure folks like yourself DON'T get pushed over that irresponsible spending edge. Thank you for your support, and I hope you'll continue to enjoy the free EH that comes out every Saturday. :)

Extra History

Ha, fair enough; make sure that whatever your Patreon allotment per month is, that you have some extra set aside to cover the increase for next month at least. Good luck to you (and your many pledges!)

Extra History

It absolutely does. Even if this has a small impact per single pledge (and even that, of course, is debatable), it's really in the aggregate of multiple pledges where it has the biggest effect.

Extra History

It may very well. They haven't handled the Day 1 announcement as well as they could have, which I imagine is causing them some headaches in HQ as we speak. I'll be curious to see if they learn from it and change anything going forward.

Extra History

Unfortunately there's no way for me to do that through the system, and without it being part of the system there's no real way for me to distribute Patreon posts (for example, even if I emailed to say "the $5+ reward is ready!" you wouldn't be able to access the post without an active $5 Patreon pledge). Not to mention that uh, I try to be as organized as I can be, but it's not my strong suit and it wouldn't take me long to screw up a lot of people's pledges through human error. If you wanted to do something like pledge for 10 months, cancel for two, that doesn't solve your problem perfectly but maybe it's a little better approach for you!

Extra History

Aww, thanks Paul! We'll try to be worthy of that faith. :)

Extra History

I'm so sorry to hear that Quintin, but I do agree that's one of the biggest immediate impacts of the change, given that the fee IS assessed per pledge (not per account). Even while I can see why Patreon has made it that way, it definitely sucks that it impacts patrons like yourself in that manner, and even if we were among the pledges you had to reduce I am glad that at least you got it done before the charge took you by surprise.

Extra History

I've been as clear as I know how to be about the fact that this change represents a pledge increase. I'm not hiding anything. I *WANT* you to make an informed decision that's best for you, and if that decision is for you to reduce or cancel your pledge to us, that's great! You took care of yourself, and I do not hold it against anyone. But no, I didn't discuss an option to waive the expense because... that option doesn't exist, and this post wasn't meant to discuss hypotheticals. In the comments section we're free to talk about it, but that main post was long enough already without me laying out all my thoughts about it in detail! Since you did ask, I personally am nervous about what this change will mean, but I'm not sure giving creators the option to waive the fee is a solution. I think most creators would then be pressured to waive it, in which case, the change may as well not exist. Right now, I am hoping and trusting in Patreon to keep as close an eye on the impacts of this change as their creators will be. I don't think that's a perfect solution either - I worry about the longterm effects on ALL creators if the change drives away patrons who might not ever come back, and reversing a policy that's done harm does not equal never doing harm in the first place. But I am trying to be cautiously optimistic in my own assessment, even though I don't ask others to be (those who are upset are justified in feeling so).

Extra History

Well, that sucks. But unfortunately it has pushed me over the "irresponsible spending" edge. Giving little to lots of deserving people just stopped working. I love what you are doing, but I'll have to go. Sorry.

TerraN0va

I'm ok with this, but I currently pledge to 28 creators, that's a lot of extra cost. I may have to change how much I pledge to some people. I'll see how much extra next month comes down to and make a judgement call based on that (too lazy to do the math).

Aww, thank you! We certainly do appreciate you sticking with us. As long as you can afford it and feel comfortable with it, we're good!

Extra History

To be clear, this service fee is not the credit card transaction fee (at least, not directly) - it's paying Patreon a cut of the pledge, which does already happen on every pledge already. That said I completely understand and share your concern about the impact this will have on $1-2 pledges. I'm hoping it evens out financially in that fewer $1 pledges but all of them actually worth $1 to the creators will at least break even, but not gonna lie, having 80 pledges doesn't look or feel nearly as good as having 100 pledges even if they have the same value in the end.

Extra History

Does this mean that if I support a hundred creators $1, Patreon will charge me $37.90 in fees (($0.35+2.9%)/pledge x 100 pledges), but if I give $100 to a single creator, Patreon will charge me $3.25?

Natasha Taylor

Would you be mad at us if we started asking patrons for Walpole connections? It's something we've been considering!

Extra History

*rub temples* Well this is boneheaded on their part. Yeah, they're gonna notify everyone, but they're still gonna have half their patrons crap themselves when it happens. More than half the patrons won't read it. Beyond that, if they're not explicit about it in the pledge page, they're gonna get pissy people later too. Watch this blow up on them :P

Jetstream

I don't mind paying extra 15% so you get a full dollar. However the $0.35 per transaction charge is simply too deep a cut for small time donor like myself. Is there an option for me to pay you $12 a year to minimize the transaction fee. Can you keep a list of donor who had donated during that year and keep the same perk as existing monthly small amount donors?

horace chan

That is very much true, they do have to get it from somewhere ... So there feels like there isn't one good answer to this conundrum ... But yeah, keep up doing great work! I'll still keep on giving! ^_^ @Ryan: Yeah, I gotz it! :D Got it early too, so I'm fairly low on the Kurzgesagt tree of birds ;)

Andreas "Rowas" Lind-Sahlin

Not a problem for me, and you guys are definitely worth it.

Paul Lenoue

This fee change as structured really discourages the supporting of multiple creators. Honestly, Patreon charges me once a month for all my Patreon supported creators, but it's charging me a fee for every creator I support? Very disappointed right now that I had to cut support to over half my creators.

Quintin Ang

"That said, the service fee will be extended to all patrons on the site and there isn’t an option to remove the service fees from your patron pledges" Don't waste others' time with your own ignorance.

Kenneth Chisholm

I've had to deal with CC processing for many of my adult years. It's honestly surprising that this change hadn't come sooner. Honestly, I get far more value already for what I pledge. and if this change means a few more cents each month out of my pocket and into yours, I'm 100% for it.

Jonathon Wyza

Well I'm not going anywhere because I'm positive you and the team are going to make a very entertaining take on some classic stories. And starting off on familiar ground really is your modom operendi since EH started with the Punic wars. The research was all Ken's idea, I love the thought of helping out a great team and putting my money to more work than just enjoying some awesome animations and wild Walpole connections. (Please tell James I watch the Lies episodes almost exclusively for those connections because it just makes me so happy to see him find far flung links as a passion project.)

Ryan Wojciechowski

If you bothered to read the link that EC posted, you'd see exactly what the terms of this change are.

Jonathon Wyza

I notice that you are ignoring the fact that creators don't have the option to waive it at their discretion if they should choose to eat the expense. I know of at least one creator is publicly objecting to that detail and the fact that you are not is revealing.

Kenneth Chisholm

I understand what Patreon's trying to do here, but I'm angry about it for two reasons: 1. It makes it far more onerous for someone to commit $1, as they now need to commit considerably more. $1 and $2 pledges (I am told) make up the bulk of most creators' support, and this change will cause them to drop dramatically. This is going to result in less money overall for most creators. 2. I realise that service fees exist. But previously, or so I understand, it was variable because the transaction fees for a single patron was split between all creators they support - since Patreon only charges my card once, a per-transaction fee is only invoked once. So why should I then have to pay a flat charge for every pledge I make? It disincentivises me from supporting many creators in a small way instead of one creator in a large way. Being able to easily put in $1 here or there for people whose content I like was my favourite thing about Patreon, but now that will end up costing me a lot of money to do.

Michael Lang

Oh no, Ryan, I hate to disappoint you but we are definitely doing Greek mythology for this four-episode set! I'll let James tell you the subject when he's ready, but we did want to start somewhere very familiar. And by the by, I haven't forgotten about the research suggestion you and Ken Kostyo were talking about in the other thread. I haven't had a chance to give it a thorough look yet and I don't want to cut corners or anything, so I will circle back to that as soon as I can!

Extra History

I have seen d.rip and I want to look into it because it's important to me to know what features are out there, but I'm not really looking to change services over this. The service fee has ALWAYS been a part of Patreon, and it will be a part of any platform we look at because... how else are they gonna pay their employees? Ads could do it, but I'd rather not have ads here, personally! Speaking for myself, I didn't mind when the service fee came out of EC's account, and I'm sorry that the price increase is going to be hard on some patrons. I hope it isn't hard on creators, but from all my interactions with the Patreon team, I do trust that they want to do well by everyone who uses the platform and will adjust as necessary if this proves to be going badly for a lot of people. I know small creators have concerns about this change and I'll personally be keeping an ear tuned to their conversations, so if it turns out that this does have dire effects and Patreon isn't listening, I can signal boost and raise hell for them wherever it's helpful.

Extra History

I can't say I like a price hike but I understand Patreon's reasoning for this, business is tricky and those fees maybe tiny but with millions of users they add up very quickly. Now I'm at the $8 mark for my pledge so if my math is right I, and everyone with me, should go from $8 to ~$8.60 which is pretty harmless if you ask me. And hey if it means Extra Credits gets a bit more money to keep up their series and the teams then why not? As for mythology I am so pumped because I want the marvel of Extra History to spill over here so you guys pick the gods of the Inca and the Hindi pantheons. I love Greek mythology to death but it's also been talked about to death and picking the lesser known deities makes the series that much more interesting because it's genuine learning instead of just a new take on the same stories!

Ryan Wojciechowski

Patreon did not previously charge their service fees directly to patrons. If you pledged $1, you paid $1. However, they did charge the service fee to creators, so if you pledged $1, we got like $0.80-0.90. It varied. After this change, that will be flipped: if you pledge $1, you pay $1.38, but we get $1. There is no double taxation, there is just single taxation (though a service fee is a different category from taxation, I can see the comparison you're making here) on your side instead of ours. As for calling it a pledge increase, that's what I have done! I hope I was very clear about that; I made sure to bold the statement that Patreon will be asking you for more money per month and I repeated the idea that this will cost patrons more several times. I am trying to explain how it works (and why it was made), but hopefully I have managed to do so while also keeping clear the fact that this is, indeed, a pledge increase.

Extra History

You got a Kurzgesagt bird??? That is so awesome!

Ryan Wojciechowski

Sorry, I was unclear when I originally wrote this: the new service fee IS how much Patreon "skims." I feel bad using that word for it, though: it does cost money to run a business, and they have to get that money from somewhere. That said, they also take a significantly smaller cut than any of the other partners we work with (YouTube, for example, takes 45%) so I do personally believe they're trying to keep their impact minimal. Anyhoo. Hope you enjoy Extra Mythology when that rolls around, and until then, Mike Rugnetta is one of my favorite people and I can't praise his work highly enough! His podcast (Reasonably Sound) has just restarted after a long hiatus, but the first new episodes were fascinating to me.

Extra History

I wish we could! I look back over our rewards a lot and have revised them several times, but I'm finding that I'm pretty much at my capacity for doling them out right now. (With one possible exception I've been weighing for a while, but don't want to promise just yet since I've had trouble keeping up with everything just lately!) As for early access videos, we do sometimes have them finished more than a day in advance, but definitely not always, and I personally feel better about having a more reliable schedule so I still share those on Fridays. We can blame that on my particular social ticks. :\

Extra History

I live in Canada and already pay an additional 30%+ from the foreign currency exchange; this surcharge feels like a slap in the face for those like me who follow Patreon. The fact that this surcharge is involuntary for the creators is especially galling. Have you explored the possibility of looking for competitors to sign up instead? For instance, this may be a golden opportunity for Kickstarter's new competing service, d.rip.

Kenneth Chisholm

In the same way there's no government money - only taxpayer money, there's no Extra Credits money - only our donations. Before the change, Patreon charged creators all the fees and, I assume, these fees were quietly passed down to patrons; after the change, part of the fees will be charged directly to patrons. If the pledge amount remains the same, it will be a perfect example of double taxation. The correct thing to do here would be to either lower the pledge amount by the same amount Patreon is going to charge us, or to acknowledge it for what it is: a pledge increase.

Pavel Yakushevich

On the mythology piece: Well, Crash Course have a mythology piece running, so I, at least, can wait until you got the things going so you can make it up to your usual standard (no skimping! That ain't okay!) :D

Andreas "Rowas" Lind-Sahlin

I don't know how much Patreon skims on top of the pledges, but me thinks that patreon should eat the charges for CC fees ... But that's just me! I actually prefer if my freely given money go directly to those that I give it to.

Andreas "Rowas" Lind-Sahlin

Personally I'd much rather pay a flat fee than an awkward interval. e.g. if I paid $1 a month and the pledge went up to $1.38 for the reward content, I'd rather pay $2 a month and maybe get a slightly higher incentive. Now, I'm a $2 patron, so by my logic I'd be bumping up to $3 a month, which I'm okay with; I'd just prefer a slightly nicer bonus than what we were getting at the $2 range. Not expecting $20/month levels of bonuses, but maybe get videos an extra day earlier? Dunno, just spitballing; I'm totally cool with giving you guys a little more money every month to keep the lights on, I'd just like to get a little more oomph in return, even if it's something arbitrary that's not a headache for you guys.

Hank Kleinberg

It does mean that, yes! If you pledge $1, you will pay more than that because of the service fee, but we (and other creators) will actually get that $1.

Extra History

If this means you get more money out of my pledge, I think that's a good change! I understand some people will have to reduce or drop their pledge because of this, which is sad

LiraNuna