Great Northern War - V: Rise and Fall - Extra History

I'll add it to the list I send James for Lies! Can't guarantee it will get into the video but thank you for bringing up the point, I'll keep an eye out in the future!

Extra History

We chatted about this on the livestream but yeah, it was an art mistake! I've mentioned it to Lil and we'll keep an eye out for that in the future.

Extra History

So, it's probably been called out before, but that fleet is Dano-Norwegian, not just Norwegian. (Hence why it's flying a Danish flag.)

themunck

While I agree that the focus on military history and great men is quite an issue, I do think that complaining that a series on the Great Northern War focuses on the war is a bit missing the point. There's definitely a series to be made about economic and political reforms in all major participants in the Great Northern War, but I'm not sure it's one that's titled The Great Northern War. I'm also not sure it's fair to point to 20th century artists and a post-WWII political structure to say that Sweden didn't lose prominence in the early 18th century. That's still two hundred years of being pretty overlooked and irrelevant in a remote corner of Europe. Beyond that, less people talk about the welfare state and every piece of Swedish art than they do about Russia or the US or France or China or any other country that maintained its empire. While empire-building is a horrible thing, it's hard to argue that it doesn't lead to fame, glory, political influence and just generally getting talked about. Prominence ultimately comes down to how much people pay attention to you, it's what the word means, rather than how moral you are in some fashion. It also occurs to me that blaming it all on Charles is probably something that feels pretty comfortable from a Swedish perspective. Helps keep Sweden guilt free from this lunacy and to not have to face that Swedish neutrality is something born out of weakness and not a deep seated part of the national psyche. It also helps avoid having to address that the country has absolutely fostered a pretty horrifying degree of military discipline and obedience.

Christina Maria Jessen

I have to say I am a little disappointed with not only this video but with the overall "Great Man of History" tendencies I see in other Extra History episodes, which because of their representation I neglected but I now see as problematic. 1) Charles XII of Sweden is presented uncritically in these videos. Yes it's focused on the narrative of what happens but as E. H. Carr argues in ''What is History?" historians only present those parts they think as important, so this video more or less says that the Great Northern War boils down to Charles XII versus Peter the Great. 2) Charles XII's defeat as the end of the video proclaims marked the decline of Sweden's prominence and the end of empire. This more or less states that Empire is the only measure of prominence for any nation and that a decline in imperial hegemony is a tragic thing. It is also categorically false. Across the world, people know of Sweden for its social democracy, its greater liberal nature, and for its contribution to dramatic arts (Strindberg, Greta Garbo, Max von Sydow, Ingrid Bergman and Ingmar Bergman). More people around the world know those names then they do Charles XII, who is known only to history buffs. 3) Charles XII of Sweden was a cult favorite of Swedish Fascists and modern neo-nazis. They glorify Charles XII because his death and defeat marked the end of Sweden's Absolute Monarchy and the rise of its Parliamentary system, and the foundation for its later social democratic evolution. Surely this fact is to be celebrated and not mourned. After all, the only other example of people hating the rise of democracy after defeat of its imperial government in battle is Imperial Germany and WW1 and that nostalgia for the empire led to the rise of Nazism. I would think more critical individuals would be careful about this. 4) To be frank, I do like these videos and presentation, and the story is fascinating, but the tunnel vision focus on military history and conquest and defeat neglects many other narratives that take place at the same time. Like Charles XII's retinue was accompanied by Emmanuel Swedenborg and others, we could hear more about that. And I feel equating the narrative of Sweden entirely with Charles XII is not giving credit to the Swedish people, and giving too much to their self-destructive king.

Sudarshan Ramani

Of Course the Brits were involved ~ we've been in every single War. ;-)

Martin Verran

Is there a reason why the knuckle guards are over the thumbs? The king is dead, long live the king.

Calvin McClory

YES! I've wanted to see EH tackle this ever since the treaty of Verdun featured on a poll a while back. Hyped to see this one come out! :D

Joël Quenneville

Good point actually, clearly holding Constantinople is good for the sanity

Iain Docherty

Episode 6 will be about the division of the Carolingian Empire after Charlemagne's death!

Extra History

The soldier who did it probably didn't even know - it was a fairly long shot, fired at night, at some rando popping his head up over the trench (the king's clothes might not have been super visible at night and at that range). And if someone did fire a shot that night, later heard the king had been killed, and knew the penalty for killing a king was execution... well, I don't know about you, but I'd sure keep my guesses to myself at that point. ;)

Extra History

I'm really gonna miss Lil's cute little Charles XII. ;)

Extra History

I'm told they did and we screwed up the map. We tried!

Extra History

And also stick your head up over the defensive parameters...

Extra History

James is gonna be traveling for this one so I can't confirm, because I doubt I'll get to see the script before he has to record it, but I'm hoping so too! It definitely seems like Lies material.

Extra History

Maps suck. I hate them.

Extra History

YAY! Congratulations on your marriage!

Extra History

He kinda reminds me of Alexius Komnenos back in the First Crusade story - just trying to get these egotistical jerks to accomplish something (and get off his lawn).

Extra History

There is! Lil has learned some new tricks. She'll be excited you noticed. :D

Extra History

Yeah, that's definitely more of a Lies topic!

Extra History

Very soon! We've got a one-off scheduled for next week, then Lies the week after that. Most likely the topic poll will launch on/around Lies.

Extra History

what will ep 6 be?

schuyler

Awesome! If I could go back in time (creating alternate histories of course) I would show these videos to people so they can avoid some great blunders. I'd love to see what they would do differently. So who shot the king? In previous centuries you were supposed to capture members of the nobility for ransom, not kill them. Footsoldiers were even executed for doing so. Did this soldier stay hidden for that reason?

Jason Youngberg

The "I will cut you" line made me laugh a wee bit harder than it ought have (The facial expression and delivery were on point)

David May

I can't help but feel for Karl/Charles XII and Sweden. It seems like he could have been a truly great king if he were much older when he took the throne. Did Sweden control Pomerania during this period and did they lose it to Prussia?

Stephen Watson

How quickly hopes can be dashed when you stubbornly refuse to cut your losses.

Michael Jebbett

Definitely I hope the theories about his death come up during the Lies episode

Bo Vanston

Yes, from this point on Russia is a Great Power, and the Swedish dreams of empire are dea. Once again you forgot Swedish Pomerania though. The area around Stralsund would remain Swedish for quite some time. But of course the Swedish positions in Finland and Pomerania were all doomed in the long run.

Jonathan Luoto

Just got married and crashing out on the sofa. Watching some extra history feels perfect right now!

Kit Fagg

"killed by his own, or by his foes? Turn back time! 300 years still no one knows. The secret remains!"

Honestly this just put me in the mood to play Empire: Total War :D Can't help but feel like Ahmed III is the only rational person around at this point

Iain Docherty

I suspect they'll probably be brought up in the Lies episode, or the "things there wasn't quite enough time for" episode rather

Iain Docherty

"Brought him back to Sweden, where we put him in a chest... Years of war and agony, now our king can finally rest... What will be uncovered, from that cold November night? Fredrikshald, what happened there, will it ever come to light?"

Sigh.... Such tragedy.... Then again, "too young and too much, gone too soon." Is it just me, or is there a sign of animation in certain parts of this video? 0o0!!!

Joo-Hwan Jun

Downplaying the Great Warth a bit there. I mean it took 20 years and was horrible. But I get that you were winding down and like I predicted in the first episode you would like to end with Charles's death since it's your style to stick with the major players because it works with the format. But what I am suprised is that you didn't even mention the theories his death coming form his side. Or what happened with the succession a bit more or what happened with other countries.

Sara Samaletdin

Well this is another Fine Mess that Charles appears to have got the Swedish Empire into. When will the next Topic Poll likely be?

Martin Verran