First Opium War - I: Trade Deficits and the Macartney Embassy - Extra History

I did indeed! It was the fourth video in the Zulu Wars :D - Maybe you'll be able to help me out with these opium videos for this fall when I do British Maritime History, I'm sure the opium will pop up there again

Curtis Fric

The sequels are pretty good! Granted the reason why .... MOST first of the movies (hate to admit it but the Michael Bay TMNT 2 was WAY better than the first) are the best is because they set it to a standard that is not easy for the next movies to follow.

Joo-Hwan Jun

Guess that's what I get for not knowing Danish. :( Ah well. It's still cool!

Extra History

Oh, that was Lil, then! Damnit, Lil...

Extra History

That's awesome! I'd heard Bruce Lee was one of his students, but I never heard the one about him being flung into a wall. ;) Great to hear that perspective on the Ip Man movie series, and of course, it does make sense for them to slightly adjust the politics of his life in a way that doesn't reflect badly on the country the movies are primarily being made for. Also, having only watched the first one (I am leery of movie sequels), I think I may have to go back and watch at least the second movie since you seem pretty happy with it. :)

Extra History

That's not petty, it was my mistake! I should have caught that in proofing, and I've been kicking myself since seeing it come up in the comments. Ah well. Here we go, Lies episode! -Soraya

Extra History

That salt shaker above the seasoned diplomat. You should be ashamed of that pun.

Michael Waisfeld

This is fascinating to me; I've heard of the Opium Wars but never knew any kind of details. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the series. :) At the risk of sounding petty, you did make one small mistake... Britain hadn't lost ALL of the colonies in North America. They still owned Upper and Lower Canada.

Tammy Spiller

We humans are very creative when we put our minds to it.

Jim McGeehin

Oh! Another story that shows how powerful he was! During his final parts of Yip Man's life, Bruce Lee wanted to learn the final parts of Wing Chun while Yip Man was pretty much on his death bed. Yip Man got annoyed of Bruce's pushiness that, even in his condition caused by years of opium addiction, the Grandmaster pushed the great action hero so hard Bruce flung into a wall. It is comical to imagine the great action star known for his speed was flung to a wall by an old man that was lying on his death bed.

Joo-Hwan Jun

Yep! I may not have seen the third one, the Ip Man movies (featuring Donnie Yen and all other actors that played the Grandmaster) are given creative license and are at best semi-biographical. Because Yip Man himself was a traditional Chinese aristocrat and was a police officer under pre-Communist China, it would make sense that if the Hong Kong movie industry were to make money from China AND not get any flack from the Chinese government they had to change some aspects of his story. However they did something clever by not making Yip Man overtly a man fighting for the ideals of Communist China (which gives respects to his ideology), but rather as a man that fights for the entirety of China AND for the art of Wing Chun. So instead of having the historicity of the rise of the Communist party being the reason why Ip Man fled to Macau (then Hong Kong), the HK higher ups decided to market the movie by having the Japanese being the reason why he fled. The parts in the first movie that were true in the movie was that he was a man of wealth, had a family and did have to leave most of his wealth behind during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Everything else was pretty much propaganda for a pro-China sentiment. Number #2 and #3 should have showed Yip Man as a balding old man, but in terms of his fighting prowess was legendary and the movies did the best they could to portray that. There was an incidences with ~100 eyewitnesses in Hong Kong that saw the marvel of Yip Man taking on an entire axe gang and coming out unscathed, take in mind he would be around his 50s-60s by this time. So in a sense, the movies do not full justice when it comes to showcasing his ideology and life story, but as for his fighting prowess they do the best they can to closely replicate the Grandmaster's abilities.

Joo-Hwan Jun

Given that there was a huge rebellion in the west in the 1790s and the effects kept simmering until at least the 1870s, that was pretty much guaranteed. Much of unrest in Henan, Shandong and Hebei would probably have remained too, since economic trouble along the Grand Canal was very much an issue before the First Opium War. But the opium, the humiliation of the First Opium War and the destabilizing effects of the concessions certainly made things a lot worse. So did missionary activity, but that was in a really weird, roundabout way.

Christina Maria Jessen

Probably some conflict would still have arisen because of the other stresses; opium itself became a big part of this only after the failed Macartney Embassy, and by that point Britain's insatiable thirst for tea pretty much guaranteed that they were going to need some kind of relationship with China. Without opium, though, the impact on the Chinese population would definitely have been... different. :\

Extra History

Did you really use one of our Zulu videos as part of a class presentation? <3 That's wonderful! Glad we could help, even if we weren't able to help with the Opium Wars portion at that time. ;)

Extra History

I went to look up how Heshen was executed, and learned what "death by a thousand cuts" really means. Yikes. I always assumed it meant a bunch of shallow cuts over a relatively short period, not... protracted dismemberment. Holy moly. "Lucky" for Heshen he was allowed to commit suicide instead. :P

Extra History

In addition to this, China was going through both a population explosion and the general expansion of the economy that tends to happen over time in politically stable countries, demanding more currency to keep the economy afloat. There's also the simple fact that a silver standard in China is a very bad idea since one of the few metals not really present in China, even at its greatest size in the late 18th and early 19th century, was silver, meaning that China always needed to import the stuff to keep the currency going.

Christina Maria Jessen

That joke took a twist I wasn't expecting. ;D

Extra History

It only gets worse from here. There's a moment when it looks like two people will succeed at de-escalating the situation, but then... other egos get involved.

Extra History

And thank you as always, my friend!

Extra History

Also: story of my life.

Extra History

I would, but it's in Danish so I doubt it'd be very useful for you. I mean, there are some plans for turning it into a book, but that book would also be in Danish, so unless it gets huge it'll probably stay that way. I'd love to share it, but language barriers are unfortunately a thing.

Christina Maria Jessen

As you seem to be a fan of his, I'm guessing you've watched the movie (Ip Man) - but in case you haven't, check it out! I'd be interested to know what you thought of it, either way.

Extra History

I like it! I'll pass this along to James. :D

Extra History

Thank yourself - this was a patron-suggested AND patron-voted topic! :D

Extra History

Glad you enjoyed the first episode! Plenty more to go.

Extra History

Well first up, that's fantastic. I'm looking forward to hearing more insights from you as this series goes on, and I'm sure I'll be passing a lot of it along to James. Second, your master's thesis sounds incredibly interesting. I would love to read through it someday if you're comfortable sharing it.

Extra History

I'm glad you brought up the letter from the Qianlong Emperor to King George III. I remember reading that years ago in a history class and it's always struck me as being an interesting document. The First Opium War really started a century of near constant war in China with both internal and external forces; I wonder how much of it would have happened if it weren't for opium

Jessica Cheeri

I missed this, what did he say?

Dani McKenzie

I can still remember doing my History Presentation on the Imperialism of the British, primarily in the 1800s, and the Opium wars was a major talking point for it. Wish this video set was out then but at least on the bright side I was able to use one of the Zulu videos for my South Africa portion. -- Nonetheless I'm happy to see this series of events being shown :D

Curtis Fric

One of the big things about silver was that Great Britain had since moved from the silver standard to the gold, meaning that while Great Britain had gold reserves to back its economy, silver was not as plentiful in the British Empire. So when the Chinese mandated payment in silver, the British had to purchase silver, causing further expense for the British. And silver was desperately needed in China. While in the 1770's, the Emperor had overseen a great treasury surplus, government officials had become increasingly corrupt in his later reign, embezzling more and more money as they kept seeing success in their smaller endeavors. In one infamous example, when Grand Secretary Heshen was finally brought up and executed on charges of corruption, he was found to have personal wealth that was estimated at a decade-and-a-half of imperial revenue. His chief butler alone had approximately a quarter million taels. The Emperor's own lavish lifestyle helped contribute, and by the time of this story, what had been a rampantly successful national economy was incredibly troubled, dependent on protectionism out of fear that greater trade would cause peasant unrest that would tax their army, who had spent much blood and treasure putting down an earlier rebellion.

Jim McGeehin

I recently learned that China's opium addiction destroyed a lot of their social structure and had decimating effects on their population. But I had absolutely no idea it got started because each side failed to understand what the other really wanted in the first place. Hey, that's still happening today! Just ask anyone about their ex...

Avery

How many wars and conflicts have started because one side simply refused to understand the other side's position or both were unable to out of ignorance and/or arrogance? Both China and Britain suffered from having strong and yet brazenly stupid people at their heads: Corrupt eunuchs and arrogant lords, both firmly convinced that they were right and everyone else was wrong. Botch China and Britain essentially took their economic ideology too far: China wanted to protect its trade at all costs and Britain wanted open trade at all costs and no side was intent on giving in. The use of subersive tactics and trickery was basically inevitable.

Corristo

Amazing! Thank you

Martin Ockovsky

If you don't come out of this series hating Jardine and Matheson, something is wrong.

Christina Maria Jessen

I'm a historian with a minor in Chinese studies. One of my classes in college was actually about Chinese international politics in the 19th century. On top of that much of my other work has touched on it. I'm one of the researchers for a comic book and educational material project about Shanghai in 1927 and the opium wars are rather important background for that and my master's thesis was about historical European perceptions of people of color. And while I wouldn't say that the Opium Wars are a favorite topic, late Qing and Republican China in general very much are. They illuminate not just the history of China, but also our understanding of the great ideologies of the west and are key in international politics of the period in general. Having studied in Shanghai and loving the city has certainly influenced my interests too.

Christina Maria Jessen

"Just add Hubris" yeah... that's history!

Adam "Lux-Vertas" Youdontneedtoknowmysurname

Such a shame how the effects of this and the second Opium war reverberated to effect one of the most esteemed martial arts masters, the Wing Chun grandmaster Yip Man. If only Opium was not readily available to someone of his social class, maybe he would have lived longer.

Joo-Hwan Jun

@Extra Credits: Absolutely.

Øyvind Wallentinsen

hears a hint if your looking for walpole in the First opium war the order of the bath well Sr. William Parker sir. Charles Elliot his brother sir. George Elliot sir James Baker & Hugh Gough the 1st viscount of Gough where all members.

schuyler

Actually, I think they are very aware of just how alike the current structure is with the old. Day to day life for most people didn't really change much between regimes.

Dani McKenzie

This is so exciting! Thank you for this series, I can't wait for the next episode!

Rebecca Holt

You know, I just realized something a little into the video. Some things about how the Chinese run their trade haven't changed at all. The Chinese government since Deng Xiaoping allow only a few cities to operate with free trade such as Shanghai and Hong Kong (now I realize how it got its name). As much as the reigning Communist Party doesn't want to admit it, they have more in common with the old Imperial government than they realize.

The last word could have been delivered better, otherwise a great episode and I'm really looking forward to the rest of this series!

Andreas Monitzer

Very glad you enjoyed it!

Extra History

Christina, this was fantastic. I'm going to copy-paste all of it for James in Lies; I don't know what's currently on his radar to discuss there but having these points listed out can only help. Are the Opium Wars a favorite topic of yours?

Extra History

Brace yourself for a lot of cringing. :(

Extra History

I would say the South Sea chicanery is a lot more intentional (bad actors seeing how much they can get away with, and finding out it's quite a lot) whereas this has at least a couple of well-meaning people who just put their feet straight into their mouths and then bit down impossibly hard. But yeah, definitely also some bad actors and a lot of "Are you SERIOUS" moments.

Extra History

Did we make that joke? Damnit, James...

Extra History

Even the terrible stories have something to teach us. They might just make us mad (or sad) while doing so. :\

Extra History

Dem Kiners tho!

Extra History

As ridiculous as the South Sea chicanery? Because that would be impressive.

Hasan Mahmood

Wonderful video - thank you!

Soul Spire Studios

It only gets more ridiculous.

Christina Maria Jessen

There are a lot more wrinkles too. Like how China had massive economic problems including severe unemployment in a number of sectors and protectionism was seen as a way of keeping people employed and from rebelling. Which was important given that China was in the middle of one of the largest rebellions in its history and had just come out of a brutal power struggle at court. This was in addition to the fact that China had clocks, the Qianlong emperor himself had acquired a large amount for his fancy new rokoko palace, they also had telescopes and various forms of carts and carriages. They didn't have steam engines and their gun and naval technology was notably worse, but the technological marvels shown weren't that marvelous. Not just that, institutional knowledge of how to interact with the Chinese existed in Europe and should be relatively accessible. The Jesuit Order had been active in China for more than a century, frequently holding priced positions at the imperial court, they were the architects of the Qianlong Emperor's rokoko palace for example, and while this was more in the Catholic parts of Europe, you could probably manage to get some consultation if you suggested that it would benefit other European countries as well and if not, it was probably stealable. The 18th century had also been a time of great interest in China in continental Europe with most European castles having a pagoda or Chinese pavilion, as well as most European political writers and philosophers favoring China as a foil for conditions in Europe. There were even postal maps of China to help address letters properly, they're the origins of odd romanizations like Peking and Canton, both of which predate Wade-Giles, the first official romanization of written Chinese. As a final wrinkle is the Qianlong Emperor himself. The man was old. He was 81 at the time and had been emperor for 57 of those years. A lot of sinologists and historians of philosophy posits that the European idea of China as stagnant was an effect of his long reign just as Europeans started learning about China. He was also known as being stubborn, rash and willful, even to his advisors who lamented a lot of his actions, such as "improving" some of the greatest classics of Chinese painting with his own calligraphy. On top of all this, he had just lost his favorite protegé and advisor to palace intrigue and according to members of the Chinese court at the time, was quite despondent for the rest of his life. If the British had come five years earlier, things might have been a lot different. China was in a much less precarious position, instead it would have been at the very zenith of its power following massive conquests, and the emperor was personally much more engaged and had had a young, vigorous advisor who might have been of questionable skill, but wasn't inclined to stick with the desires for stability of the eunuchs and old literati. Perhaps they would have listened. Particularly if Macartney had done the homework that was accessible in Europe and had maybe stopped at the Jesuit mission in Shanghai for a few pointers.

Christina Maria Jessen

That describes pretty much *every* story from history.

David Harkness

I have to remind myself that this is a time where people had a different thought process on other cultures, races, religions, etc. And hindsight just makes me cringe at times like these.

Aaron hutchinson

Although it would be more like a cultural barriers really

Hasan Mahmood

Ah, the hilarity of miscommunication across language barriers. This should be fun.

Hasan Mahmood

Seasoned. Lol.

Michael Waisfeld

Mixed feelings about this. On the one hand it'll be hugely interesting, on the other hand it's such a terrible story.

Øyvind Wallentinsen

Even without any knowledge of Chinese Culture that may have another significance to it, the title of "Waning Moon" feels pretty appropriate.

RMS Oceanic

That outro music.\

Dave Hoyt