Suleiman the Magnificent - II: The Fate of Princes - Extra History

It is indeed the Burgundian Cross. Philip I, the first Habsburg king of Castile took it as an emblem, from his mother's house. His son, Charles V used the cross on various ensigns throughout his domains, including Habsburg Spain.

I'm Hungary for more history! ;-)

Bob

Here's something that I don't really get. I understand that by around this time cannons had made their way into the battlefields of Europe in some form, the Ottoman Bombards were still the greatest weapon they had. Why were they so ineffective against Hungary and Rhodes when the same cannons ripped apart Byzantium's great walls a hundred years before? Also, I may be mistaken, but the flag that you're showing for the spanish looks an awful lot like the Burgundian flag...

Sean Sarff

Speaking of Roman Legacies, I recall an anecdote - but I have no idea if it's true, so take with salt - that after Greece won independence from the Ottomans in the 19th Century they went into every village proclaiming their liberty and how they were once again Greek. Which apparently surprised some villages as they still considered themselves Roman. Senatus Populus Que Romanus is a frame of mind, it seems.

RMS Oceanic

Even to this day, the legacy of Rome lingers, and everyone wants to be its heir. The Eastern Roman Empire claimed to be the heir to Rome, the Pope crowned Charlemagne as the Holy Roman Emperor to put imperium in the hands of the Catholic faithful. Kirij Arslan of the First Crusade fame titled himself the Sultan of Rum, the Arabized word for Rome. Mehmed decided that Istanbul would be the Third Rome, the first being the pagan Eternal City, the second being Christian Constantinople, and the third being Muslim Istanbul. Moscow got into the mix as the new seat of the Orthodox faithful. So you have no less than three powers claiming to be the real heir to Rome. And each of these Romes had their own unique twist. So do all of their twists invalidate their claims to Rome, or are they a necessity of time, place, and circumstances? Unrelated, I noticed you were talking with someone else about the cultural achievements. I agree it's hard, given our modern era is vastly different. Certainly, you can talk about architectural relics all day long, the Old City walls of Jerusalem are the same walls that Suleiman renovated. But given you just spoke about the Knights Hospitalier in this segment, one of the interesting butterfly effects of that conquest was that Suleiman allowing them to withdraw to Sicily eventually let them establish themselves in Malta, and they evolved into the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, the oldest chivalric order in the world.

Jim McGeehin

you guys are great i have faith! plus lies(extra truths?) is always excellent for filling in gaps/ trivia

Jane

Phew! XD

Extra History

Yeah, we won't really go into that with this series, but it is endlessly fascinating to me how arbitrary the dividing line between "Rome" and "not Rome" can be when we're talking about the supposed fall of the Roman Empire - East or West. Even the Ostrogoths, whom Justinian was so eager to oppose last series, adopted many of the institutions of Rome, and Theoderic adopted the title "King of Goths and Romans" - IN Latin. I love it when things get complicated.

Extra History

sick good

Robert S

Sick good or sick bad? I need context!

Extra History

I know! It goes a bit faster, but hopefully it'll be a good six.

Extra History

The Janissaries always existed in this strange dichotomy where they were simultaneously seen as a terrible and a wonderful fate. Taking kids from their families is always going to be traumatic, and leave deep scars not just on the families directly involved but on their culture which sees itself being deliberately torn apart. But at the same time, the janissaries were (as Yazen points out) elite guards with great social prospects, and for some people, having your son become a janissary was an honor worth striving for. So, I would agree that the generosity of not enslaving children for a few years is a pretty odd statement when we view it in perspective, but it's really just the beginning of contemporary culture norms that seem odd today, but which we have to wrap our heads around when dealing with the question of janissaries.

Extra History

sick

Robert S

History just has this perverse way of throwing in the unexpected, same as Justinian was on top of the world until the Plague struck.

Extra History

To be honest with you, we're still having a hard time giving narrative weight to the cultural sides of our rulers - we had the same problem with Justinian. We will talk about Suleiman's reform of the laws, but this series is still following the wars as its main narrative thread. Something I hope we can improve on over time.

Extra History

The Knights of Rhodes would be an interesting series, or maybe one-off, for Extra History one day. They are connected to our First Crusades story, after all!

Extra History

The anti-Habsburg sentiment in Europe at the time cannot be overstated. The House of Habsburg, now mostly a not-entirely-undeserved joke about the dangers of consanguinity on the gene pool, but at the time, was considered a dire threat to the kings and nobles of Western Europe. One of the fascinating things about the Janissaries is their evolution as a military power. Originally, the Janissaries were by appointment only. In the beginning of the 17th century (this is after Suleiman's tenure, so it will probably not be covered by this series), however, they became hereditary and a powerful political bloc. More than one Ottoman Emperor would meet his demise at the hands of the Janissaries, mirroring the similar circumstances with the Roman Praetorians and the Byzantine Varaganian Guard. A faction responsible for a king's safety can become a powerful kingmaker. For the Ottoman's declarations that they were the heirs to Rome and Istanbul the Third Rome, this is one aspect of that which is entirely true. But that, I think, is beyond the scope of this series.

Jim McGeehin

We had some help with the pronunciation. ;) We know we're still gonna get some things wrong, but we do try as much as we can!

Extra History

I guess you don't get to be called "the Magnificent" if you don't have a lot of restless drive in you.

Extra History

i think something great about the justinian series was the pacing set for twelve episodes. going back to six is hard!

Jane

The Janissaries were kidnapped, but their status was very far from slaves. They formed their own distinct social class as they were educated, trained, and made into elite soldiers . As you said, in modern times it is unthinkable, but the Ottoman's offer was much better than the slavery that usually ended wars. That's why the Knights ended up agreeing to it. Edit: Hi, I was reading a few comments below and you seem to bring up the idea that Jannisaries were some type of canon fodder for the Ottomans. Their responsibilities in the army was as the Sultan's personal guard. To quote wikipedia "The Janissaries also enjoyed far better support on campaign than other armies of the time. . . Their weapons and ammunition were transported and re-supplied by the cebeci corps. They campaigned with their own medical teams of Muslim and Jewish surgeons and their sick and wounded were evacuated to dedicated mobile hospitals set up behind the lines." I understand there is some cultural bitterness at past wrongs but the Jannisaries were not slave soldiers in the form of the Mongols. They were kidnapped as children and then conscripted into the army.

Yazen Shunnar

I always wondered how Christians felt about fighting the Jannisaries who where enslaved christian children ( it was illegal to enslave Muslims) so no matter how the battle goes the result will be piles of dead christians. Cant be great for morale.

paul staber

Reminds me a bit of the Soviets in WW2 just keep throwing human suffering at the problem and it will go away eventually besides they are slave soldiers its what they were made for (christian slave soldiers at that).

paul staber

It is a bit disheartening that back then the ottomans could unironically say "see we aren't that bad we wont even enslave your children for a few years"

paul staber

Suleiman's relevance to modern history is that he made many contributions to education, art, culture, and was a great military leader. I'm really looking forward to hearing more about the other half of his legacy.

Yazen Shunnar

You can't help but respect the Knights at Rhodes. To be that grossly outnumbered and outgunned and -still- putting up one hell of a fight is truly what legends are made of. Eve through they lost, only a fool would true to shame them for it.

Bright Ops

You can't help but respect the Knights at Rhodes. To be that grossly outnumbered and outgunned and -still- putting up one hell of a fight is truly what legends are made of. Eve through they lost, only a fool would true to shame them for it.

Bright Ops

"some priest" had nailed a paper, eh ? Maybe a story for another Extra History... Btw, pronunciation of Hunyadi = ok!

Matt Lakits doesn't have the mental energy to update their Patreon name anymore, but still listens to every episode avidly!

Suleiman sounds about as relentless as I when I play Europa xD

Curtis Fric