Frieren Episodes 7 + 8 Early Access - Demon Slayer
Added 2024-05-16 03:26:01 +0000 UTCI had a good chuckle after coming up with this title.
Comments
So I don't know what happens in the manga yet, but from looking at the covers, we do return to stories about demons again I'd wager, going by the volume 8 cover image (but I suppose they could be another race we don't know of as well). Maybe then they will act differently? I would not be surprised if eventually a demon ends up tagging alongside Frieren, as crazy as that sounds. You never know! We're told they can never be trusted, but for it to be truly absolute is impossible, I think. Just like you would never believe a wild animal like a lion or jaguar to be friendly to walk up and pet, that doesn't mean there aren't lions which could be friendlier. Just that you'd not expect it and if you value your life, you'd be sure to take precautions before putting yourself in a situation where the lion could rip your head off. If anything you can see in these episodes the demons were given a chance, and it resulted in mass deaths, both in the past and the potential present if not for Frieren and gang. I think the literal army of re-animated human knights waiting outside the town is proof enough they don't really intend to co-exist with humans and any demons that actually did would merely be outcasts and likely killed by their own kind.
L Freya
2024-05-16 17:20:11 +0000 UTCI want to reiterate that my issue is not with representing the demons as pure evil, my issue is with the stressing that ALL demons are evil and that taking the time to access whether a thinking/speaking creature is evil is somehow naive. I think the same story could have been told in which these demons in this town are being deceitful without the emphasis on how you MUST not trust all of their kind. I am someone who honestly enjoys a good vs evil story. I watch a lot of anime, I play D&D. There is a reason why its usually only just implied that ALL of a certain creature/race is evil. And yes, it is usually only implied. All the bad guys we see might be of the same species or race, but the natural assumption is that there COULD be good of their kind if not explicitly stated. When you put focus on it, you are asking the audience to make a moral decision. If you don't put focus on it, we usually just enjoy what's being presented. Frieren is a show that invites deeper conversations, and then it chooses to not only show more humanoid demons but also create a focus story line in which it's stated that you are wrong if you don't kill first, as k questions later.
MelanieRS
2024-05-16 15:57:26 +0000 UTCIf their human appearance is the problem it's simply the logical endpoint for Demons based on their origin that they would resemble humans, just as they evolved to use human speech to deceive them they would also evolve to look more like them. After all it's hard to convince your prey that you are harmless and make it drop it's guard if you are visibly bigger and stronger and have claws and teeth the size of it's limbs. Like if you didn't know either around whom would you rather leave down your guard Qual or Linie? It's no different from Body Snatchers, Changelings, Vampires, Kitsune, Doppelgänger and all other creatures that wear a human guise in some way or another.
Ryuuji Gremory
2024-05-16 15:55:25 +0000 UTCHmm, you could also try and look at it through the eyes of someone who runs D&D campaigns / DMs like Teeaboo - when you DM a campaign, monsters are evil. There are some exceptions with intelligent monsters, but generally they are just MORE evil. So yeah, the whole alignment thing, when you hit chaotic evil - that's just fucking straight up I'll murder your whole family, rip your children apart in front of you and make you watch while I do it for my own pleasure. You can argue humans don't have a blanket alignment set to them, but when you look at monsters - the range of alignments associated to them generally falls within a much smaller scope and they're generally going to attack on sight. I think Frieren is just using her millenniums of experience with demons to base her opinion on. The flash back shows they don't understand human morality. Nor do they want to. Then again, I don't mind there being things in a fantasy world which are flat out evil.
L Freya
2024-05-16 14:17:50 +0000 UTCA fun bit of foreshadowing from before that pays off this episode: We learn that Frieren's "Zoltraak" has been modified to kill demons specifically. Back in episode 3 Qual, as good a magician as he is, recognized this in his dying moments. His last words "...my magic..." weren't meant to convey "How could you use my magic against me?" but "What have you done to my magic?".
wyggles
2024-05-16 14:10:38 +0000 UTCThe casting in Frieren has been absolutely top notch. Suwabe as the monologue loving Lügner? Choice!
Bob Francis
2024-05-16 13:16:03 +0000 UTCYou are right that the treatment of the demons here resembles bad conduct. But they use that very sense of justice to manipulate. You are conflicted just like the mayor who is killed was conflicted. It’s intentional. If the demons were real you’d be killed defending them
Adam Young
2024-05-16 13:00:33 +0000 UTCI appreciate all the insightful and respectful responses! a few points: the idea that this shows either an animal (predator) or a non humanoid and not to be compared to humans is a little unreasonable to me given how it is very clear and specific that THESE demons look humans. Up to this episodes all the demons looked like Qual. Enormous, with claws and fangs and dressed in pelts. These are our size with our faces and dress in human clothing. This is intentional. That shock that you feel when you see these is intentional. But then the show tells you, no.. these might look like you and me, but they are the same inside... and that to me is just a bad message. In a similar way the psychopath point of view is not tenable to me because, well, that would be opening up a whole different can of worms about our health care system and perceptions of mental health in media. (just a huge topic of discussion that we don't have time to get into here) I think the show could have shown Frieren as righteously distrustful of all demons because of what she has gone through in the past and not then doubled down by making the demons agree with her assessments and therefore making them facts. It's not that we are left questioning if Frieren is right or wrong in what she believed (that would have been an interesting topic that I feel would have been great) no.. the show tells us that she is absolutely right by hitting us over the head, first in flashback then with the demons explicitly saying that she is right. This is what makes it icky for me. The show is presenting what should be a nuance conversation and taking all the nuance out of it by giving us the answer... and then the answer is " If demons (who we have shown to look like humans and have the capability to communicate AND reason) talk they are lying, so kill on sight, please" these are tactics that have been used against people from time immemorial. I don't like them used here.
MelanieRS
2024-05-16 12:30:14 +0000 UTCI found it refreshing that demons are actually a separate species and not just an exotic humanoid. Sure to any humanoid species in the world of Frieren, demons are evil because demons prey on them. However demons don't go out of their way to do it in order to be evil, it's simply in their nature. I'm sure if you could speak to a gazelle and ask it if it thinks lions are evil, it would most likely say yes (as i'm sure most prey animals would think their predators are evil). Sure there are some predator animals that do play with their food before killing/eating it. Most however hunt to survive, and not to be evil. And if you think that it's racist to portray a made up/fantasy species as evil/bad, then it says more about you than the author (like the people who say that orks are not allowed to be evil as it's racist because they can't help but think of black people when they see an ork)
Michael Aagaard Nielsen
2024-05-16 11:55:32 +0000 UTCFun fact, the word sousou doesn't mean Slayer in Japanese, and I'm sure this will be plastered all over the comment section eventually, but its more akin to funeral bringer, or undertaker. Hence why the manga was translated as 'Frieren at the Funeral'. And also probably why that other sub version translated the title as an Ageless Elegy, because funeral stuff. Although I hate that subs interpretation lol.
Muhd Wafri
2024-05-16 10:25:18 +0000 UTCI think a good takeaway from the depiction of demons in Frieren is: Try to understand and talk as much as you can, but don't be naive about it and know when it doesn't work. The demons perfectly encapsulate the dark triad personality traits (machiavelillianism, psychopathy and narcissim). I've had similar thoughts and gripes like you too, but then I thought about it, and I've interpreted the demons in Frieren as a warning, beware of predatory elements in society, and in people. Predators will speak, but will mostly try to use your own emotions and values against you. In real life it's more complex and there's always a backstory behind it, but media isn't supposed to be all encompassing, it touches upon aspects, and this here is the aspect I see. A good balance to the kumbaya feel of the reat of Frieren, bringing us brief reminders to stay vigilant, and to be wise with your trust. Not everyone is earnest when you reveal vulnerability. There are himmels, and there are demons.
Muhd Wafri
2024-05-16 10:21:52 +0000 UTCThe show shows a natural predator, like a bear or a wolf or a lion preying on their prey nothing else. It's senseless to bring morality into it, it's simply the nature of a predator to prey on it's prey, it's not good or bad it's just nature at work. There is nothing racists about being aware that a predator is gonna prey on it's prey and being aware that a wild animal is a wild animal. The same goes for warning people about it and telling people that forget it that they are being stupid and that they will only have themselves to blame if that wild apex predator mauls them to death because they got comfortable around it. Or take Orcas, highly intelligent creatures but if arbitrarily judged by human morals they are ridiculously cruel spawns of Satan towards their prey (or their toys). But judging them by human morals is ridiculous, they aren't good or bad, it's just nature taking it's course. Luckily they usually don't see humans as prey but if humans were actually a priority on their list of prey everyone should be made aware that they are a menace. Demons are simply part of the ecosystem that has found a niche it adapted to over many generations, there doesn't need to be any reason for them being there any more than for wolfs, bears, dragons, Undead, Einsam etc., they are simply a part of nature.
Ryuuji Gremory
2024-05-16 10:09:23 +0000 UTCDon't agree at all. I personally really like this approach in Frieren because in most of the shows it's always this back and forth, grey moral, different thoughts whether someone is bad completely or maybe not and so on. F*ck that, seriously, sometimes evil is just evil and you have to accept it and get rid of it.
Meruken
2024-05-16 09:50:00 +0000 UTCidk why you are trying to liken a group of literal psychopaths to marginalized groups. this is not like real life where "xphobia" makes people think a group is evil, these creatures are not even evil. they are predators that cannot be held accountable by our moral standards. I also would prefer if they were morally gray beings that can be utilized further in story like that but there is nothing wrong with not doing that. they are literally not humans.
Zipzip
2024-05-16 09:10:51 +0000 UTCWeirdly appropriate timing for the funny title lol.
Kyle Smith
2024-05-16 08:01:11 +0000 UTCI like the translation I saw in the manga when Fern and Stark were clearing the road (Stark asks her to be more casual) "I see... I understand. Stark, get your lazy ass over here and help me." (So rude! I'm sensitive, etc.) whispers "What a pain in the ass..." "You said ass again!!" It's maybe not as accurate, but it made me laugh.
Zac Childs
2024-05-16 07:02:14 +0000 UTCI think I'm basically with you on this though I do think these episodes are enjoyable and cool. As far as the role of a villain in a narrative goes, this is a very odd one and seems to exist more because it comes with the package of default fantasy world. The demon king was established as the goal of the original journey likely just due to ancient nes rpg tropes. Thus from the get go we're stuck with having intelligent demon villains. They're also a clever and powerful target for magic fights so I get using them in this part of the story, lots of cool stuff. But even then we already had the previous big demon that was just fine for that. They went out of their way to show the child demon. They went out of their way to keep things this cold and slap the wrist of kind people for giving any demon any sort of chance, shown as being a form of ignorance. That's a lot of deliberate choice that feels like we take a detour from the actual plot just to do it. Why? What has this specifically added to the story that couldn't have been added by non-human demons and is what it added something Frieren benefits from? I won't spend the energy trying to answer those questions myself.
Dopamine Cloud
2024-05-16 06:37:06 +0000 UTCi really find it fun that Lugner literally means Liar. lol. i love our introduction to the demons. as far as we know, demons deceive and destroy - that is their nature, but who knows what we may encounter in the future? let's ponder it for a minute - if driven into a corner, would demons change to survive, or at the very least, pretend to change? and could they pretend long enough to share space with humans? if so, would new generations exposed to humans and their emotions be affected, be altered...evolve? in any species, you can find outliers, mutations... it could only take one weirdo demon that feels a feeling...
CJ
2024-05-16 06:32:41 +0000 UTCI didn't look that deep into this aspect of the story. I just thought just like in the real world the lioness hunts the gazelle. They don't think if it's morally correct, they just need food. You might think that the issue is that the demons look like people, but I see it as the same natural relationship. Except demons have learned to use words in context even though they don't fully know what the words entail.
ZigZagKangaroo
2024-05-16 06:21:10 +0000 UTCAny narrative is open to an interpretation into our lives because for better or for worse we are influenced by them. People will justify their action by a worldview that they can construct out of the tiniest things. Does that make fiction liable for human behavior? no. But it is not except from the criticism of reckless narratives. @God Hand: I think I could agree with you if it wasn't so very pointed that it is ALL demons that are this way. And I think that any depictions of racism should come with a foil in story or at the very least with some opening literature that explains the context so as to not become a manifesto for bad intentions. @Zac Childs my point stands that when you want to make a bad guy role you either make them mindless or you leave it open to the imagination that at least SOME of them can be good or risk this very conversation about morality. I don't feel that you can have it both ways. Because when you say a whole group of people are one way you are inviting a moral conversation. But I respect that some people don't want to have that conversation. I'm not saying that you must see it that way, only that it can and will by people.
MelanieRS
2024-05-16 05:57:44 +0000 UTCI didn't take it as the writer giving any kind of moral message at all. I just took it as the writer saying that the humanity of demons isn't what this story is about, they are just here to fill the bad guy role and the writer doesn't plan on going any further into the morality of killing them, at least for now.
Zac Childs
2024-05-16 05:45:41 +0000 UTCI honestly don't see anything wrong with good old fantasy racism. The problem is when people take Tolkein or D&D or whatever and then equate it 1 for 1 to the real world. If there's any moral message here it's that evil sometimes has a silver tongue. And yes of course the manga will explore the concept more in depth.
God Hand
2024-05-16 05:30:46 +0000 UTCas much as everyone loves these 4 episodes they are the only episodes of Frieren that I dislike. I know I'm opening a can of worms (given all the discourse that is already out there about these episodes) but I think I would love Teeaboo's insight given a different perspective. Unlike the usual arguments I've read on these episodes my issue is on the take away of this. What is the actual message a show like Frieren, that is often showing human emotions in a bare form, imparting? Can the only message be that there are some who speak and act a certain way but must never be listened to or treated as anything but monstrous? I know that many will say no, it's a representation of evil, that's it. But I think that narrative have a responsibility to be measured in their messaging or at least be prepared for criticism for it. If this wanted to be just a "demons are evil" show then they had 2 choices that would not deliver a basically racist message. 1. show all the demons as mindless therefore eliminating any comparison with humanity or 2. never point out the fact that ALL demons are a certain way. Up to this point we assume that that is the case and the assumption is all you need, but once you point it out you are making that the message, that is the take away. If these demons showed up and Frieren was suspicious of them and they attacked it would still be a fine episode, because just like the assumption is that all demons are bad, there's also a human part in our brain that says, well ALL the ones in the show, but there is the possibility of some of them being good. Just that unstated possibility is enough to just enjoy the show without issue. But when the show makes it a point to talk about how ALL of the demons are this way and you shouldn't believe their lies even though they can obviously think and are intelligent, that loses me in the worst kind of way, because I now have to figure out WHY would a show want that to be a message that I take away. I've seen the whole show. The first 4 episodes had me crying every episode, even this episode's first part I thought was inspired... but this mini arc is not my jam and I can only hope that in the future, (I haven't read the manga) they do something to reverse this is some way. Maybe Frieren needs to meet a demon who just wants to be left alone in peace or something. And people may say that a story in which there is some humanity in evil things is trite or cliche but all I hear from that is that you want the bad message. No one says "a story that doesn't murder kittens is trite and cliche" You know why? because giving us the one that murders kittens is not what we want to be condoned. I would hope that a story that promotes talking and understanding people as a whole is never trite or cliche.
MelanieRS
2024-05-16 04:57:26 +0000 UTCLove the discussion. Just a heads up next week episode 9 and 10 pair well together
Wesley Davis
2024-05-16 04:54:41 +0000 UTChappy frieren day :)
gloomy raccoon
2024-05-16 03:31:03 +0000 UTC
