Channeler (preview)
Added 2017-06-01 05:30:01 +0000 UTCSkilled in sword and spell alike, channelers are dynamic and formidable mages who draw their power from the Planes of the multiverse.
Because the Expansion Pack came out a little slim this month, I've got a preview of our next big class, the Channeler. It's missing some art, and it's still in playtesting, but we think it's coming along nicely and wanted to show it off.
I get a lot of people asking me about sword-mage characters (or "gishes", for those of you who are old-hands at this game.) Most people point to the paladin as the sword-mage in 5th edition -- it obviously can burn through spell slots to augment its spellcasting, but its divine focus doesn't sit right with a lot of players. When people ask about sword-mages, they want something that actually casts arcane spells and swings a sword at the same time, much like the Magus from Pathfinder or the Duskblade from 3.5. And I shouldn't neglect to mention the Eldritch Knight, but that's very much a half-measure; you don't have the spell slots, the spell selection, or the class focus to make the concept work. Eldritch knights are fighters with cantrips, not full-fledged spellswords.
So, first and foremost, the Channeler is a gish -- our true gish for 5th edition. Beyond that, we think it has an interesting extraplanar theme for interesting characters, and (we think) it has enough interesting mechanics to set it apart.
Try it out and let us know what you think!
Changelog:
- 6/1/17: Arcana Point Table: Spell levels fixed
- Bonus Concentrations: Limbo: Requires a bonus action
- 6/2/17: Bonus Concentration: Limbo: Regain 1 AP, regardless of damage dealt
- Dimensional Magus: Shadowfell: No longer ends when an enemy is within 5 feet of you -- costs 1 AP per minute
- Spell: Zephyr's Feather: Requires concentration
- 6/3/17: Fighting Style: Dueling replaced by Hand-and-a-Half, Two-Weapon Fighting replaced by Defense
- Limbo: Hostile creature
- Underworld: Effect changed to require a bonus action, apply to all hits on your turn, and to give you temp HP
Comments
Firstly, Spell Channeling doesn't work with either Toll the Dead or Sacred Flame; those are both saving throw cantrips and Spell Channeling works by replacing a spell attack roll. Secondly, let's look at this math. 1d10 + 1d8 + 1d4 + 5 = 17.5 on average. I can't speak to the 1d4 (2.5) from bloodhunter; I don't know that class. By contrast, a fighter with Two-Weapon Fighting can throw two attacks at 1d6 + 4 at this level, for an average of 15 damage. If you ignore the influence of bloodhunter, these are basically right on par.
Mage Hand Press
2018-11-24 23:41:42 +0000 UTCHey so I realized that using cantrips for the spell chanelling can get really overpowered. If you use Toll the Dead by either multiclassing or using the Arcane Initiate feat, you can eventually do 1d10+4d12 damage. That’s a lot to do every turn. For example, one of my players is playing an Avia-Ra Channeler 2/Bloodhunter 1 (Using the Critical Role class). This gives her 1d10 from a Longsword, +1d8 from sacred flame, +1d4 from Bloodhunter, +5 from a +4 Str and +1 from Hand-and-a-Half. That’s a maximum of 27 damage at 3rd level. How can I balance that?
Charlie H
2018-11-24 22:33:56 +0000 UTCOn review I see what you mean, but I think it is because they don't work with extra attack. When i think of a swordmage i can see them using the blade cantrips and this certainly falls in line with the planar flavour. At risk of treading on the warmages shtick, i would consider dropping extra attack in favour of a bonus to cantrip dmg and give a couple more cantrips and access to the blade ones. I see force buckler, springheel, quicksteps and phantom grapnel also fitting the flavour. Just some thoughts :)
Damian Spurling
2017-07-31 00:02:34 +0000 UTCI was thinking about using some of them, but most of those cantrips don't actually fit super well. An earlier draft actually had magic stone, I believe, but I ended up limiting the cantrip selection a little more, and it was cut.
Mage Hand Press
2017-07-30 23:40:29 +0000 UTCLoving this class and can't wait to see its proper release. I cant help but think this is a perfect opportunity to reuse some of your warmage cantrips...
Damian Spurling
2017-07-30 22:07:13 +0000 UTCThat is very good to hear. I think when we get everything perfectly balanced, it's going to be among our very best work
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-13 17:28:59 +0000 UTCI became a patron just for stuff like this; honestly this may top the Binder and Craftsman for my favorite class that you all have made. Can't wait for the next update!
JA
2017-06-13 17:26:40 +0000 UTCRight, with Underworld you're getting five temp HP now. And it doesn't work with Duskblades Spellstrike ward which serves a similar function. Making it real HP makes it useful to do more than once.
John Hoffman
2017-06-06 09:57:29 +0000 UTCI absolutely love the fluff and flavor texts. Drawing power from the planes? Keys and gates? Holy friggin' cow, I love it. I'm still skimming the class features, but this looks awesome.
Christopher Schroeder
2017-06-06 04:23:12 +0000 UTCNo typo in the title -- it's Boomer-Ring, as in, you're creating a ring of energy that returns to your hand. This is a lot like advantage, yes, with a few key differences. The first is that if you hit on the first attack, you don't roll again for a possible crit. It also stacks with advantage, yes, except (again), if you hit, you don't roll the second time. There's no time delay on the second attack; it happens right away.
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-05 22:12:56 +0000 UTCOr was your intent that you could make a 2nd spell attack on the following round without expending further slots/points? If so, I would change the duration to something like 1 round, since instantaneous spells don't normally last more than that turn. And also add exactly what action type you would need to use to make that 2nd attack.
Andrew Bahls
2017-06-05 21:54:28 +0000 UTCIs it intentional that Boomerang (also, typo in the title, I assume) is essentially giving you advantage on the ranged spell attack roll? To paraphrase, if you miss, you can roll again? Except, that if you had advantage on your attack rolls, you would be rolling with advantage, twice.
Andrew Bahls
2017-06-05 21:50:57 +0000 UTCI /think/ the damage is about where I want it now, without removing Improved Channeling. I do want this class to have a damage level between paladin and GWF shenanigans fighter, and I'm pretty close to that sweet spot. (I need to do a new level-by-level analysis to be sure.) I can continue to mess with Underworld to make it worthwhile. I'm basically envisioning it as a lifesteal; an alternative you should use only when you need the HP. Maybe it should restore real HP? Temp HP = weapon damage? Do you have any ideas? This class's spell list doesn't really have a ton of AoE or CC spells, by design. The Channeler is all about channeling, so it's spell list is pretty focused on things that can be channeled, or don't require concentration. Later levels start breaking these trends, but those core 1st and 2nd level spells don't do much CC at all.
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-05 10:05:55 +0000 UTCALSO, short of burning a bunch of points and a spell known on fireball, this class is limited on Crowd Control. But that's not necessarily a bad thing or especially uncommon for melee types. Just a thought I had when comparing this to ranger.
John Hoffman
2017-06-05 07:43:44 +0000 UTCMy suggestion on keeping the damage down is to just cut Improved Channeling or limit it to non-cantrips. Your damage already scales with cantrips so the traditional 11th level boost isn't important. If you cut it, you can replace it with either a lateral option in terms of power, or add riders to spell damage. Also, I can see almost no times when I would want to focus on Underworld. It takes a bonus action to switch your concentration to it, then another to activate it. I'd rather have the +2 passive AC or the rerolled damage dice instead of The chance to get, at best, 5 temp HP and 10 extra necrotic damage. Also, Limbo has some vestigial text stuck to the end of it.
John Hoffman
2017-06-05 07:41:45 +0000 UTCMore changes implemented! I've dumped Dueling and Two-Weapon Fighting styles, and reworked Underworld. This should marginally cut down the damage and emphasize the viability of a Strength build (while not altogether eliminating the possibility of a Dex build.)
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-03 23:56:59 +0000 UTCI'm gonna follow your format as well because this seems much easier. Armor Proficiency: I feel that with this class there is little reason not to choose a Finesse focus. The disincentive to using heavy weapons and the impracticality of dual wielding (you need your bonus actions) means you are essentially choosing between a d8 finesse weapon or a d10 versatile weapon, unless you are avoiding piercing damage. That, in effect is a difference of 2 damage per round, which can potentially be made up for and surpassed with the dueling style. For this reason I think the potential damage tax (+/-2 dmg) is substantially lower than the alternative AC tax (-2AC). Of course, that being said, the AC difference between them and the Paladin can be much bigger if a Paladin chooses to optimize defense instead of damage, so I definitely do see how the armor/shield proficiency cost is still doing its job in that scenario. Underworld: Now that I understand, I can see how that's actually a really good idea, especially since it allows a Channeler without a cantrip keep up in terms of damage. Remove Dueling: I agree in that I don't think it should be a problem, but it does seem to make a substantial difference. I might suggest reviewing the other fighting styles, though, since I'm not sure if any of them really have the same level of impact as dueling. Like I touched upon earlier, you likely aren't going to be using your bonus action for dual wielding. Also, now that I'm considering it, I am a little confused as to how spell channeling interacts with ranged spells. If you channel a ranged spell (let's just use firebolt as an example) with a melee attack, does the melee attack have disadvantage without the combat casting feat? Channeling a Cantrip Cost: I agree with you on this entirely. I don't really like the idea of it, either, but it seemed like a viable solution considering the difference in damage between a normal round and a round where you channel a cantrip (and thus a major damage difference between a duskblade vs the other archetypes). However, perhaps changing how underworld works could deal with that problem. Damage: With the exception of the SCAG melee cantrips, improved Arcane Channeling should probably surpass Arcane Strike because they do two attacks plus cantrip (plus int mod with the current rendition) instead of one attack plus cantrip. The Eldritch Knight may have a better weapon, but the average 2.5 damage difference between a 2d6 weapon and a 1d8 weapon would not make up the damage difference. Anyways, I think one of the most important things to tackle is making sure that arcane channeling with a cantrip doesn't completely throw off the rest of the classes balance as it seems to in the first draft. As it stands right now, a duskblade deals over 50% more damage in a non-resource-consuming round than the base class is supposed to at level 11. Some of the balancing to deal with that should probably be weakening how effective cantrip channeling is, and some of it should be increasing how much damage you can do without cantrip channeling. So far I think your suggested changes to underworld is the cleanest solution. On that note, however, I might suggest just making it so that using a bonus action while concentrated on underworld let's you add your int modifier to both attacks, just to differentiate it a bit more from the Paladin's smite ability. It might sound a tad strong, but I think it balances out with the paladins ability to add additional smite damage after a hit. It also balances it perfectly with Thirsting blade, which definitely isn't overpowered.
EthnicElvis
2017-06-03 10:53:33 +0000 UTCResponses, topic by topic: Medium vs. Heavy Armor: Medium armor represents either a substantial AC tax, or an ability score/damage tax. If saddled with medium armor, the player can choose to go with a Dex-focused build to maximize potential AC, which reduces damage to the d6 you can expect from finesse weapons. If you want to maximize damage, you'll probably go Strength for the versatile weapons. If you try to do both Strength and Dex, you're getting really MAD, since you also need Int for this class to work. Basically, I think it's pretty substantial. Underworld Suggestion: The trick here was to make Underworld a bonus action, meaning that it only kicks in on rounds that you don't Channel a spell. In this case, I can afford to make the damage quite high (2d8 is probably about right), since it'll never stack with a cantrip on the same turn. Removing Dueling: I'm just trying to figure out if this is the real problem here. It definitely contributes to the damage, but I'm having a hard time justifying removing this when a Ranger can cause all sorts of havoc with it. (Ranger is also the reason I don't want to cut HD down to d8.) Channeling a Cantrip Cost: On the face of it, this is easily one of the most reasonable ideas on the table, but I'm having a hard time stomaching it. Part of the reason I wrote the channeler is because want someone who can cast a spell and attack /every/ round -- someone who is literally a spell-sword. Giving them a limited cantrip selection with the subclass was my solution to that -- you always get something to channel for free. If I attach a cost to it, this just becomes another eldritch knight or paladin: someone who casts spells sometimes and attacks other times. Damage: Have we compared this to an eldritch knight? If I remember correctly, the numbers I ran in my initial draft were based on the Eldritch Knight fighter, not the paladin.
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-03 09:42:41 +0000 UTC(Sorry if this comment shows up a bunch of times, I've been trying to post it but I haven't been able to find it) In regards to this class being squishier, it might help to also bring it's hit dice down to a d8, further cementing the role of the Paladin being the tank half-caster with this being the damage half-caster. I don't think that will make this class too squishy, considering the Paladin needs to give up his shield to have 2d6 damage dice (meaning 18 AC in Plate) and the Channeler can easily be dex focused while still dealing similar better damage (meaning 17 AC in half-plate), the lack of heavy armor proficiency doesn't seem to make that large of a difference. To top that off, the ability to use the Shield spell more often because of Spell points gives them yet another edge to keeping up with the Paladin in terms of AC, and with Limbo you can easily regain a use with potentially only one attack. Also, maybe I'm missing something about this suggestion, but I think changing Underworld to +2d8 necrotic damage just worsens the problem, seeing as that gives an average of +9 damage instead of +int. You could make it cost Spell points like Smite, but I think giving this class Smite would make it step on the toes of the Paladin too much, especially when combined with Limbo. Finally, I'd be careful about simply changing the cantrip given by duskblade to solve the problem. It's worth noting that high-elf is a pretty ideal race to pick for a Channeler in terms of ability scores, so you probably still need to balance the feature around the possibility that the character can have any cantrip. Here's a list of some potential solutions I can think of: 1. (As you touched on) Remove the Dueling fighting style 2. Channeling a cantrip costs 1 arcana point 3. Adding your intelligence modifier to a damage roll with Underworld costs 1 arcana point, but there is no once per turn limit.
EthnicElvis
2017-06-03 01:30:41 +0000 UTCLet's talk solutions: I think a lot of that damage edge in your math comes from Underworld and the influence of Dueling. While I don't think it's wise to remove Dueling, Underworld can easily be replaced with another effect. Hell, I can specifically make it +2d8 necrotic as a bonus action, to balance exactly with the paladin. I can also change the restriction on Spell Channeling to 'one-handed weapons only', rather than 'no-heavy weapons', as it is now. That being said, that only drags the attacks down from a d10 to a d8 for the one attack that's channeled, reducing the total damage by 1. I think other people want to see that for consistency reasons, but I'm not really understanding that angle. Lastly, I can make sure the class is balanced in other ways, perhaps by (as I am now) keeping the AC a little lower. In the current draft, I was aware that the Channeler had a slight damage lead on the paladin, so I made sure that it had to take an AC dip, meaning that it can't participate in combat for quite as long. Thoughts, anyone?
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-03 00:05:18 +0000 UTCQuick thing: there's a mistake in my last post and (perhaps) in your own: Underworld doesn't come online until 14th.
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-02 23:59:32 +0000 UTCThis is something I'm totally working on, and it's why I made some of the balance decisions I've made so far, in particular restricting this class to medium armor. I do want help taking a critical look at this, since it's still a playtest version, and getting the balance right is key. Before I discuss this in earnest, I'm going to check those numbers, without including fighting styles and feats, (since many of those will be available to the paladin as well). Assuming, like you did, a Strength mod of +4 and a spellcasting mod of +3. If we're looking at high-damage, I'm going to give the pally a heavy weapon as well. Looks like Paladin is getting 31 (2d8 radiant + 4d6 (greatsword)+ 2*Str), and Duskblade is getting 35 (3d8 lightning + 2d10 (longsword) + 2*Str + Int.) That's some mean damage, but it's not too crazy, given that the Duskblade is losing quite a bit of AC to even it up. To contrast it with a rogue: a rogue is dealing 28 (7d6 + Dex) with a Sneak Attack at this level -- so 35 is a lot. The thing that sets me over the edge with this is the metal armor advantage thing from shocking grasp -- I forgot about that part completely! I'll have to substitute this cantrip with something else, or write a cantrip specifically for this class.
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-02 23:55:13 +0000 UTCI'm absolutely loving this class so far. However, my biggest worry is that their damage output when using Spell Channeling with cantrips seems like it might be too high, especially once you factor in Improved Channeling and the Underworld concentration. For sake of simplicity I'm going to assume an attack modifier of 4, spellcasting modifier of 3, and d10 weapon damage. When you compare a level 11 paladin to a level 11 duskblade, a non resource consuming attack round has an average damage output of 28 for the Paladin and 35.5 for the duskblade. In addition, the duskblade has advantage on it's attack rolls if the target is wearing metal armor and denies the enemy it's reaction on a hit. That's just over a 25% damage output increase over the paladin, with some added benefits. Even if you assume the paladin chose a flail and gwf, and the duskblade chose a longsword and dueling, the average damage is 33.6 vs 37.5, which is still over a 10% output increase in favor of the duskblade before the other advantages. That 37.5 is only slightly beaten out by the 39.9 of a fighter with a flail, gwf and a strength of 20. I feel like when you combine this high resource-less damage output with the options for the channeler to spread their spell points out to get more total casts, as well as their option to regain spell points by attacking enemies, they might come out as too powerful overall compared to the other classes. All that being said, I just wanted to reiterate that I think this class looks amazing and you all did a fantastic job, I'm only really worried about the cantrip damage output being a little too high. Edit: I just realized I never took into account that you don't get Greater Concentrations till level 14. Considering this, they are not as far ahead at level 11 as I thought, but I'm still a little worried about their abilities in combat being too high combined with the other strengths of their class that I mentioned above. Also, at level 15 they will jump significantly ahead of Paladin's again for the same reasons listed above.
EthnicElvis
2017-06-02 23:26:32 +0000 UTCI chose to base it on temp HP so it doesn't stack with false life -- it seemed like things could get too defensive too quickly.
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-02 06:59:09 +0000 UTCI think I agree that Zephyr's Feather should be concentration-based, but I'm not into making the Planar Concentrations work like hexes. The idea behind those are to give you an interesting choice for things to do with your concentration, since your spell channeling attacks should take up most of your actions, but rarely your concentration. Adding concentration makes Zephyr's Feather no less thrifty (it's still a great deal, until it starts getting outpaced by cantrips), but it removes an opportunity to use a good Planar Concentration option.
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-02 00:27:16 +0000 UTCI have a bit of a nuanced concern about "Spellstrike Ward". I understand that the point of it is to have a pool of extra health, but you used temporary hit points, which cannot stack with itself. Would it be better to phrase it similar to the Abjuration Wizard's "Arcane Ward"? As I said at the start this is a completely small issue, as the intention for the feature is clear.
Dragun
2017-06-01 17:58:13 +0000 UTCAssuming this class is supposed to be on a similar power level to the paladin, with its d10 HD and half casting, I must say that Zephyr's Feather in conjunction with arcane channeling worries me. Its a 1st level spell, that deals 2d8 slashing, and you can add your weapon damage to it with channeling as a bonus action. You get three of these with a single first level spell slot. Thats the same as getting three smites for 1. Granted you don't get to choose after you hit, but I think that three smites for one is still too strong. It gets worse when cast a higher levels, scaling the same as smite, and eventually giving you even more bang for your spell slot buck, by creating more feathers. To temper its power, I suggest making it concentration, and changing the Planar Concentrations to be more like Witch Hexes, in that they can concentrate on both, but lose both when they fail the save. It also feels bad to have haste on your spell list and not be able to use it while using another class feature.
Paul Grose
2017-06-01 15:22:34 +0000 UTCalthough a giant supersun would be amazing, wait isn't that what the plane of positive energy is?
Lee Robins
2017-06-01 10:14:48 +0000 UTC-.- its a figure of speech
Lee Robins
2017-06-01 10:13:55 +0000 UTCUnder the collective gazes of the Gods?
The Nails of Vecna
2017-06-01 09:54:54 +0000 UTCUnder the... what's the multiverse version of a sun? Hyper sun?
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-01 09:03:10 +0000 UTCOk this has the greatest potential for subclasses i have ever seen! one for every plane under the sun!
Lee Robins
2017-06-01 09:01:13 +0000 UTCYes. They take your concentration, as if you were concentrating on a spell, and you can only concentrate on one thing at a time.
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-01 07:56:31 +0000 UTCDo the Planar Concentrations stop you from concentrating on a spell?
John Hoffman
2017-06-01 07:49:47 +0000 UTCAlso, the At Higher Levels section of Dazzling Ray treats the spell like a first level spell, despite being labeled as second.
John Hoffman
2017-06-01 07:15:02 +0000 UTCFirst things first. Holy funky sheets. Gish is pretty much my favorite word when it comes to D&D. This is my Golden Goose. Thank you. Secondly, as is you can channel through a non-heavy versatile weapon being used two handed just fine by RAW. I say non-heavy versatile because Craftsman is a thing. I think letting them use two handed weapons is fine, especially since there isn't fighting style support for it. (Which I might recommend giving them access to the Hand-and-a-Half style). Also, the 7th level concentrations are both hard to use if you're not always prepared for them. It takes a bonus action to switch to them and a bonus action to activate, making it two turns of investment to use. Also, the Shadowfell concentration is a bit powerful, having indefinite invisibility out of combat.
John Hoffman
2017-06-01 07:08:36 +0000 UTCThanks for all the notes! I'm trying hard to make this play very differently from a paladin. I might eventually bend on the heavy armor thing (it's really a power concession for the ability to use some of the more powerful evocations from the wizard spell list), but I'm sticking to the no-heavy-weapons thing. Heavy weapons are optimal for too many classes, and I'm not letting that happen here as well, if only to make it more unique. I can work on the capstone. I don't want to work it into the subclasses (since, again, I want this to be different from the paladin in as many ways as possible) but I'm open to suggestions.
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-01 06:26:54 +0000 UTCThanks for catching the spell table error! Limbo should be once per turn, and it shouldn't give your more than your maximum of AP -- I'll implement those changes post-haste. One other thing I forgot about that concentration is that is needs to take a bonus action. This means that you can't Channel a strike that gains you a few points back, cutting your damage drastically to recover (at best) a 1st level spell slot. I think this should be playtested before I change it dramatically, but I can revert it to an earlier version: only gaining 1 AP, regardless of damage, if need be.
Mage Hand Press
2017-06-01 06:23:48 +0000 UTCHey guys, glad to see a Gish from you guys, just had a few preliminary things I wanted to address. 1. I feel they should get heavy armor similarly to the Paladin. 2. The spell point conversion table is off. 3. The non-heavy weapon restriction seems unnecessary and somewhat arbitrary. 4. I like the concentrations theme, but Paradise and Underworld kind of broke it. 5. Limbo is a bit strong. 6. Underworld is very weak. 7. The capstone feature of the class is fairly disappointing as it conflicts with Limbo somewhat; I feel you should do the Paladin thing and make 20th level an archetype level and they either get a powerful, thematic, passive effect, or they channel their key and gain extreme amounts of temporary power, a la Paladin.
Sasquatch
2017-06-01 06:18:57 +0000 UTCJust a couple of comments from my once over. Your spell table has a typo. It lists spell conversion for levels 1,3,5,7, and 9. (I'm assuming it's supposed to be 1,2,3,4,5) The Limbo focus: This ability... Wow. Less limbo, more blood magic :P. At the very least I would recommend the following addendums. 1) Usable once per turn. I'm assuming this not being in there is a typo or something. 2) A caveat mentioning that it can't increase your Arcana points over cap (I'm aware that's usually a given, but it's good to specify.) Even with these additions it's still an /incredibly/ powerful ability.
Altanius
2017-06-01 06:16:25 +0000 UTC
