Shugenja
Added 2017-02-01 06:30:16 +0000 UTCWater, Earth, Fire, Air…
The Shugenja are elemental masters, unlike anything you've seen for at least an edition and a half. Rather than casting spells normally, shugenja are scroll-casters, preparing and casting their magic through ink and parchment alone. This radical departure from conventional spellcasting requires thoughtful planning, but comes with a host of benefits: sharing scrolls with your allies, gaining the use of blank scrolls, which need not be prepared, and gaining a library of powerful elemental spells.
This class comes included with a huge suite of elemental magic to make your shugenja as unique as he is powerful.
[This class was a joint effort with Grand Moff Xela!]
Changelog:
- 2/1/17: Spell List: Haste added at 3rd
- Aerial Alacrity: Moved to 2nd, concentration removed, bonus to AC removed
- Duality: Earth and Wind: Spells: fly replaces aerial alacrity
- 2/2/17: Spell: Desiccate added
- 2/9/17: Spell: Suffocate: name fixed on spell table, range increased to 120 feet, spell only acts while you're within range
- 2/24/17: Ability Score Improvement: Entry added
- 3/1/17: Desiccate: damage scales with 2d6
Comments
Still a bit bummed that no one has responded to this.
Grand Moff Xela
2017-05-02 15:20:57 +0000 UTCWe've only done a handful of playtest sessions with this one, so I'm interested in everyone's opinions as well. In general, you have this question of how you want to spend your blank scrolls, because they quickly become the power focus of the class. Our playtester chose mostly damage spells, and reserved his blanks for utility, but I'm still convinced this was a bad move. Unfortunately, he (having never player a full caster before) mostly relied on cantrips, which means I didn't get enough data. I'm getting pretty sure that, before we release this live, I'm going to give it one more solid draft. But I need everyone's playtest opinions first!
Mage Hand Press
2017-03-09 17:00:04 +0000 UTCAny feedback from people who have played with this? Comments, Concerns? How does it feel to play? Any spells or options that are good or bad?
Grand Moff Xela
2017-03-09 15:49:33 +0000 UTCTrue, i always forget about the Light armor mages xD
Kasai
2017-03-01 17:44:43 +0000 UTCI mean, you get light armor proficiency.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-28 03:26:53 +0000 UTCNo mage armor for the Shugenja ?
Kasai
2017-02-28 03:04:39 +0000 UTCIn my head, I guess it would prevent speaking. Would anyone object to that as an extra little debuff effect?
The Nails of Vecna
2017-02-12 15:57:20 +0000 UTCYeah, I believe this does solve most of the problems I had with it, thank you very much. I would still like to know how the spell interacts with speaking, though...
João Luís
2017-02-09 18:39:09 +0000 UTCI made a couple of small adjustments. Tell me what you think
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-09 18:19:19 +0000 UTCEven so, it is an exellent tool for disposing of many enemies, since not everyone will be 5-10 minutes away of a caster with dispell magic... I was thinking of something in the lines of "As an action the target can attempt a Constitution Saving Throw against your Spell Save DC to catch its breath. This does not end the effect of the spell.", this way the spell would be less exploitable and targets that take damage and fails the save can still do something to not drop to 0 in 1-5 turns. Also, in the description it says that it "Seals shut the mouths, blowholes or other airways of a creature..." so a creature affected by this spell would be able to speak? if so, speaking would make a target stop holding breath?
João Luís
2017-02-09 18:03:08 +0000 UTCI feel that the power here is acceptable. It takes several minutes to kill most targets (i.e. longer then most combats last), doesn't work against a host of non-breathing creatures and requires concentration. Bear in mind as well that it imposes no debuff while you're concentrating on it - a creature holding its breath is still able to fight at full strength. On the other hand, the Suffocate/Teleport combo feels cheap against high-CR targets (though anything with access to Dispel Magic doesn't need to worry about it). It could be completely blocked by offering a save (thanks to Legendary Resistance), but I don't know if that makes the spell too weak to keep at level 5... I guess we could insert a clause that allows LR to block the spell even without it offering a save?
The Nails of Vecna
2017-02-09 16:13:58 +0000 UTCYeah, but with the duration of 1 hour, you can throw it at someone and run away, effectively killing any creature that have to breath. For instance, if you throw it at the tarrasque (suposing that it needs to breath) and a friendly wizard teleports you to somewhere safe, it would die before the expiration of the spell. Also, in the shugenja spell list is written Suffocation, while in the spell description is written Suffocate.
João Luís
2017-02-08 13:08:47 +0000 UTCThat's a very good question! I thought the same thing when I first read it, but then I checked up the suffocation rules: a creature can hold its breath for a number of /minutes/ equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier. Then, if it starts suffocating, it can survive with a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier before suffering ill effects (this spell offers a saving throw before suffocation starts.) It's hard to really place a level on it, but by my judgment, it can be very powerful, but it takes lots of time to pull off, which makes its power much more acceptable.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-08 08:21:11 +0000 UTCOk, so, I'm creating a shugenja lvl 11 and was looking at the spell when I noticed that the Suffocate spell has a duration of 1 hour without a save... It kinda seems way too powerful...
João Luís
2017-02-08 05:15:29 +0000 UTCHehe, Ice Claw Prison is one of mine, so I feel like I should thank you for the compliment!
The Nails of Vecna
2017-02-02 18:46:38 +0000 UTCA few reasons. The first is that, since we're publishing this under the Open Gaming License, we can only use things published in the SRD (which Elemental Evil is not.) Secondly, we actually like many of these spells more and think they're more interesting to play with. Ice Claw Prison is a great example of an interesting spell that you just don't get in EE. And lastly, this makes the shugenja as modular as possible -- you can play it with only this book and the SRD. (Also, I should have included Desiccate -- the only ones not included here should be the SRD spells. I'll get right on that)
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-02 17:46:03 +0000 UTCThe elemental evil spells are not included because it is a wierd situation with the OGL rights. The Finger is more familar with it than I.
Grand Moff Xela
2017-02-02 15:20:06 +0000 UTCThese a good questions. Dessicate, as well as Ice Claw Prison and others, are from the Waste and Tundra updates. You can find them here, on Patreon.
Grand Moff Xela
2017-02-02 15:18:10 +0000 UTCAlso why is it that there don't seem to be any spells from the Elemental Evil companion when this is a class about, well.... Elements.
Ben943
2017-02-02 11:50:30 +0000 UTCI was just wondering, the spell list mentions a spell named Dessicate however i don't see this in the document or the PHB. Is it from another document you made like the chronomancy update?
Ben943
2017-02-02 11:49:30 +0000 UTCI /almost/ want to say this is something we can relegate to a feat. I'll think on it, however. We're still actively playtesting this and getting a sense for its strengths and weaknesses.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-02 02:06:52 +0000 UTCThat is a very interesting idea, and one we hadn't considered when creating this. To be honest though I'm pretty happy with the class balance as of now, and don't really want to mess with it too much. Final say is the Finger's though. Definitely something to file away for if we need a remastered version like the Craftsman.
Grand Moff Xela
2017-02-02 00:32:28 +0000 UTCAwesome, thanks for the reply. Also, had a thought while reading this, would it be possible for them to semi-permanent scrolls that last like a few days to a week. Maybe something like: Long-Lasting Scrolls ---------------------------- Starting at (let's say) 9th Level, you can special scrolls that retain their magic for longer than normal. Writing a scroll in this way is a much more complex process than normal, requiring 8 hours of inscribing and 250gp in materials (special ink/paper/spell components). You can only create a scroll in this way once per week. Long-Lasting Scrolls retain their magic for one year, after which the scroll reverts back into mundane parchment. ------------------------------------------- Just an idea, when I think scribes I think something like this: <a href="http://calltoholiness.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Alexandria-CosmosReconstruction2.jpg" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://calltoholiness.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Alexandria-CosmosReconstruction2.jpg</a>
David Fitzwater
2017-02-01 20:57:16 +0000 UTCWith this type of multiclass, it would depend on your DM. By RAW, you could transfer your spells between the two as if you were making a backup, but I would probably rule that you could use a spellbook as your master scroll, or vice-versa (as long as your blank scrolls only cast shugenja spells.) As with all of these, we're going to keep working on subclasses for the future. (I maintain a current policy of two subclasses, because it's easier to playtest and balance.) We have designs on Form/Void, Light/Shadow, Death/Life, and so on.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 18:20:34 +0000 UTCSorry -- I forgot to mess with that Duality's spell list when I modified the elemental spells. I'll get to it right away.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 18:08:30 +0000 UTCcool, thanks. and you guys really like warlocks dont you? lol. thats fine though, i like them also.
Jackie syver
2017-02-01 16:49:25 +0000 UTCI don't see them as specific to the Shugenja. I have already seen some of the other digits floating new subclasses using some of these spells (probably for warlocks, knowing them) so, if you wanted to put them on other classes' lists, I doubt that would be a problem.
The Nails of Vecna
2017-02-01 15:37:16 +0000 UTChaven't finished reading yet but really like it so far. Just a few questions, first Light and Shadow/Life and Death (Radiant & Necrotic) Duality? Secondly, if you were to multi-class Shugenja/Wizard, would you effectively be able to copy back and forth between your spellbook and master scroll?
David Fitzwater
2017-02-01 15:25:15 +0000 UTCwith the artificer gunsmith, i think it makes sense. it may not work for everyones campaign, but even wizards admits that, its just there if you want it. and i think it fits with the magitech theme they had going with the new artificer. i like it, and i think it fits, but thats also because it fits in my campaigns. but even then, it wont fit for everyones. thats why they have the alchemist, and hopefully more to come. and the way i see it, if a gun doesnt work in your campaign, it could easily be reskinned as a magic staff that shoots energy. although i hope they do a wand subclass for it, just because i think its missing that. something different than your wand subclass for the wizard, one that uses the wand more like a tool or weapon than how your wand wizard uses it more like a conduit for their spells
Jackie syver
2017-02-01 14:55:52 +0000 UTCso im curious. do any other classes get access to any of the spells introduced or are they specifically for the shugenja?
Jackie syver
2017-02-01 14:37:27 +0000 UTCDidn't even notice the level drop. Solid.
John Hoffman
2017-02-01 10:49:56 +0000 UTCYeah, I think the Finger needs to put either Haste or Fly into that table as the third level wind spell. Getting a second level spell at level 5 is no fun whichever way you look at it.
The Nails of Vecna
2017-02-01 10:26:53 +0000 UTCWorks well enough to use on yourself in combat now, provided you have Fly prepared, or bust it out as your Blank Scroll. Still seems like a bad spell to get at 5th level unless you pick Fly as your one spell for that level. May be put fly on the Duality list? It's more likely to be used by people, but *is* a stronger spell overall.
John Hoffman
2017-02-01 10:11:12 +0000 UTCChanges made -- let me know what you think.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 09:42:16 +0000 UTCI don't think I noticed it was concentration until John pointed it out. I like how it synergizes with fly, but it's clear that's not going to work with one spellcaster. Is the solution here simply to remove concentration or do we need to make deeper changes?
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 08:55:00 +0000 UTCYou know, I've totally forgotten my thought process with that one. It *is* intended as 'haste for fliers', and I thought I made it juicy enough to be attractive despite the obvious drawback that both Fly and Aerial Alacrity are concentration spells. It's also worth remembering that some people have access to concentration-free flight (via magic items, Wildshape, Dragon Wings, etc.), possibly even racial flight... and that monsters can cast spells too. Also it's totally a wind-themed spell. I don't see how it's a weird choice for that list. As to it being an enchantment, well I never agreed that Fly should be a transmutation. If the Finger wants to change that, though, I'm fine with it.
The Nails of Vecna
2017-02-01 08:52:34 +0000 UTCI'll get back to you on this very soon -- it was one of the Nails' spells, and I remember him making some good points about it, though I can't remember his reasoning at present. I'll ask him to post here when he has a free second.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 08:39:49 +0000 UTCI have a few problems with the spell Aerial Alacrity. It feels very much like a Flying-Only Haste. Which is cool and flavorful, but doesn't fall under the same school on magic and frankly enchantment feels really weird here. Unless you're going for some weird Peter Pan sorta reference here. Secondly, how often do you see people using this? Because while it's cool, it is also very niche and doesn't seem like the kinda spell you'll be casting a lot when you get it at 5th level, making it a very weird choice. At first I thought it would combo well with Fly, but unless you get someone else to cast Fly, you're not gonna be able to because concentration. Over all a cool spell, but very niche ad a weird choice for a Wind and Earth Duality spell list spell.
John Hoffman
2017-02-01 08:35:19 +0000 UTCI'll try to have something for you tomorrow! And, you know, it's a joy for us to get to do this -- thanks for always being one of the first to look at these! (You too, Matt!)
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 08:29:00 +0000 UTCIt'd be appreciated! And thanks again for all the hard work!
John Hoffman
2017-02-01 08:24:15 +0000 UTCWe typically don't include these just because it's hard to find a place to put them. The shugenja, being an eastern scholar, will basically be the same as a wizard. I'll have to get back to you with Gunslinger and Craftsman -- my thinking is that they'll be similar to rogue and fighter, respectively, but their kits are more custom, so it's something I need to figure out.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 08:22:11 +0000 UTCMakes sense. One last question for the night I think: What would be reasonable Multiclassing proficiencies for these classes? It's probably my biggest issue whenever y'all release new classes.
John Hoffman
2017-02-01 08:17:42 +0000 UTCI think we included it because it's basically standard for spellcasters of all types.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 08:11:26 +0000 UTCAnd is there a reason Detect Magic is on the Shugenja list? Like, yeah they could make it a scroll and let someone else use it, but that eats a scrool slot and spell known which doesn't seem worth it when you can do that at no cost all the time.
John Hoffman
2017-02-01 08:09:43 +0000 UTCThey don't NEED it! That's why its an option! Lol. I'm currently playing an Alchemist Artificer that uses one of y'all light revolvers as my main form of attack. The character's a mess, but that's part of the charm.
John Hoffman
2017-02-01 08:03:38 +0000 UTCIt's kinda funny, because almost all of this was written when that came out. The gunslinger was almost ready to go last month, sans some polish on the Deeds system. (Also, why does the artificer need a gun? I'm surprised more DMs weren't annoyed with that.)
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 07:54:33 +0000 UTCIt feels like you guys saw the Artificer unearthed arcana and broke it down into three separate things.
John Hoffman
2017-02-01 07:50:46 +0000 UTCNah, it's the Shunjenga. Flaming Text. :D
Altanius
2017-02-01 07:50:01 +0000 UTCThe Digits missed it on their first read too, haha. I should put it in flashing, animated text.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 07:47:08 +0000 UTCAh, I missed that those refresh on a short rest. Very interesting...
Altanius
2017-02-01 07:35:02 +0000 UTCThat's a very good question and I'm glad it's the first one asked. Two reasons: First, and most importantly, this should make preparing spells as a Shugenja less intrusive to everyone at the table. Preparing your spells on scrolls takes a little more time than preparing spells normally, and we found in playtesting that this slowed things down. Fewer spells is easier to prepare and maintain. Secondly, this balances more nicely with the blank scrolls, which mechanically acts similarly to warlock casting. This means you need to account for a few spells of /your highest level/ in addition to those listed. These are made even more powerful by the fact that you can cast any spell you know with a blank scroll, and that they recover on a short rest.
Mage Hand Press
2017-02-01 07:31:55 +0000 UTCI'm curious. Why did you choose to reduce the Shunjenga's Spells per day? On top of their restrictive preparation requirements and their limited spell list, it's incredibly punishing.
Altanius
2017-02-01 07:19:48 +0000 UTC
