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Complete Warmage

Added 2016-08-01 05:17:56 +0000 UTC

Rook to king-4. Checkmate.

Warmages wield magic the same way a fighter wields weapons: swiftly and efficiently. It's no accident they've claimed the names of chess pieces for themselves. Chess is a game of strategy, where greater pieces trump lesser ones, and everything is done in service to victory. Logic alone dictates the winner, just as it does with magic. 

We wanted the Warmage class to be perfect, so we went back in, restructured the base class, tricks, and houses, and created an entire suite of cantrips. Also, there's information on how to include the College of Warmages as a faction in your campaign world, a handful of new magic items, and a new house to spice things up a bit. This class is playable with only the SRD and the Complete Warmage PDF, so there's no need to juggle books just to find your cantrips. 

Last but certainly not least, this PDF has some of the best art the fantastic Kirbish has ever done for us. The cover, in particular, still knocks me dead every time.

Changlog:

Comments

What are the esoteric tricks?

Brandon Laing

2020-03-12 19:49:45 +0000 UTC

Warmage Trick question: If a House of Pawn took the "Promotion" trick at fifth level, choose House of Bishop, and at ninth level took the "Field Medic" trick, would that allow access to the Bishops spell slots because of gaining cure wounds?

MAGICALwooki

2019-03-30 12:28:14 +0000 UTC

I was just building a Warmage (House of Kings). The blade cantrips I assume are meant to be the bread and butter of melee warmages. Looking at the Kings Maneuvers, you can't use Check, Distracting Blast, King's Order, Precision Attack, and Stonewall Attack with the blade cantrips because they don't use spell attacks (except Mystical blade). Is this intentional or should they all say "hit a creature with a weapon or spell attack" like Stalemate? Or am I misunderstanding something (which is entirely possible)?

Damian Spurling

2019-02-21 11:52:12 +0000 UTC

Super late question, does the Caustic Cantrip trick effect both the initial attacks damage as well as the extra d8s of damage on the targets turn?

Jack Tigue

2018-11-07 14:19:44 +0000 UTC

All Armor is keyed off of Dexterity anyway, so I'm failing to see how this forces the Warmage to be any more mad than it already is?

JaQKnife

2018-07-10 03:11:33 +0000 UTC

Also, apologies if the answer is buried above, but the Ruby Knight Sword casts Mage Armour, with goes off of Dec, so I was just curious as to the thinking behind that, since this class seems quite MAD. Maybe I'm missing something?

caind2

2018-06-11 15:53:44 +0000 UTC

I'm really late and new to MFoV, but is this the final form? This class is probably the coolest I've ever seen, even trumping Sterling Vermin's Magus (sorry SV)

caind2

2018-06-11 15:38:15 +0000 UTC

Just now noticed that in the quick build section House is misspelled as Hours

The Red Priest

2018-04-19 17:35:34 +0000 UTC

No esoteric tricks, but it should be up-to-date with the Redux changes

Mage Hand Press

2018-04-15 19:43:55 +0000 UTC

Does this now include the changes from warmage redux, and esoteric tricks?

Travis Prosser

2018-04-15 05:41:26 +0000 UTC

Edited after remembering that blasting cantrip is a thing.

Levi Rendon

2018-03-12 18:33:53 +0000 UTC

Is it just me or does the mystical weaponmaster trick favor the magic daggers cantrip over mystical blade? 10ft range is nice, don't get me wrong. It just seems to be easily outclassed by the daggers getting an extra attack. Especially when both of the tricks relating to the daggers add attacks while the blade gets a 10ft reach and a push that knocks things back 10ft, which moves them out of your newly acquired reach. Unless you forcing them out of your own reach would provoke an opportunity attack, which I don't think it does RAW. :/

Levi Rendon

2018-03-12 17:21:48 +0000 UTC

Aw, charged blade no longed adds the 1d4. poo.

Grimeagle

2018-02-08 04:12:49 +0000 UTC

It does include cantrips -- cantrips are spells, after all.

Mage Hand Press

2018-01-25 08:49:08 +0000 UTC

I've always been confused by the 2nd level feature, Warmage Edge. When is says "cast a spell" does that include cantrips? Because if not, it seems fairly pointless to add since the only way you could get 1st level or higher spells is A) Sage option at 1`st level and then picking inflict wounds or something of the like instead of a healing spell or B) Going Bishop for actual spells.

BardlyWritten

2018-01-25 08:47:10 +0000 UTC

It's melee attack rolls, so this applies to melee weapon attacks as well as melee spell attacks.

Mage Hand Press

2018-01-20 02:29:07 +0000 UTC

Is the Arcane Fighting Style: Striker intended to only give its bonus to warmage cantrips with melee attack rolls or is it suppose to work with melee spell attack rolls as well?

GodKingBunny

2018-01-14 16:32:08 +0000 UTC

It shall be fixed promptly -- thanks for pointing it out!

Mage Hand Press

2017-10-20 17:43:37 +0000 UTC

I know it's past a year later but... Chapter 3 Magic Items and below it says Chapter 3 Cantrips :x (Please don't hurt me.)

Kura Tenshi

2017-10-20 09:33:23 +0000 UTC

It took me over a year, but I finally got it.

Scornful Egotist

2017-06-22 13:33:40 +0000 UTC

So I may be missing something, but once you reach level 11 is there any reason you'd ever want to use the extra attack from improved martial training instead of just using mystical blade and getting 3 attacks?

Isla Ross

2017-02-12 22:56:36 +0000 UTC

I was also wondering about Warmage Edge and the Mystical Blade cantrip. Once the Warmage gets multiple swings with Mystical Blade, do they add their Edge damage to every attack? Is that bonus damage added to Reaction attacks with the Blade?

Josh Smyth

2016-12-19 04:03:55 +0000 UTC

I was reading through this today, getting some ideas when I noticed that the Mystical Armor trick just says that you can cast Mage Armor without using a spell slot. There's no limitation listed to when and on who the spell can be cast on, so as written I could indefinitely maintain Mage Armor on the whole party. My guess is this was not intended.

Josh Smyth

2016-12-19 04:01:57 +0000 UTC

(1)Going off the Sage Advice/Errata given regarding Elemental Affinity, (e.g. Dragon Sorcerer + Scorching Ray) the bonus can only apply to one damage roll per spell cast. I would think that the same applies here as the only difference between Elemental Affinity and this is the mention of specific elemental damage.

Magmanox

2016-12-16 16:27:57 +0000 UTC

Phantom Grapnel states you can target a space within 120feet and it will pull you to the spot, but doesn't mention any limit unlike the 20foot limit for targeting creatures or object. Am I reading this correctly it seems like 120foot movement for an action or am I missing something? The Pawn ability Fortress Defense states that you erect a wall of force 4 feet tall that provides 1/2 cover, but for a gnome a 4 foot wall is enough to cover their entire body. The ability also states that the wall can provide 3/4 cover at level 10 but doesn't specify if the wall changes in height or it simply applies a protective ward or some such. There is also no mention of the cantrips from the Elemental Evil Player Companion or the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide. Any advice on how you would recommend the fit in with Warmage spell tree since other classes gain access to the Warmage's cantrips? The Skilled Hand trick mentions that is uses your intelligence rather than strength or dexterity and that it can carry heavy weapons, some of which are heavier than a normal mage hand could carry. Is it safe to assume that the mage hand is effectively using you intelligence as its strength for everything then? and how does apply to attempts to disarm the magehand?

Magmanox

2016-12-16 08:46:56 +0000 UTC

Kind of late to this party, but I have a couple questions. (1) Regarding Warmage Edge and how it interacts with melee cantrips. Warmage Edge is pretty obvious in application on something like fire bolt; instead of doing 2d10 at 5th level you do 2d10 + 4. But with the cantrips that involve melee weapon attacks, I found myself unsure of how to apply the rule. Let's use glacial blade as an example. For purposes of the example, let's say we've got a 5th level Knight, resistive style to make the math simpler. And let's say he's wielding a longsword one-handed with shillelagh active and the charged blade trick. On a hit, the melee attack for glacial blade does 1d8 + 1d4 + 4 damage from the attack itself, plus a guaranteed 1d8 from the cantrip -- so that works out to 2d8 + 1d4 + 4 damage instantly. Then, it deals a further 2d8 if the target fails the saving throw and is hit again. Does Warmage Edge stack 4 more damage on the first bit of damage from the successful hit (i.e. 2d8 + 1d4 + 4 + 4), on the second bit of damage from a failed save (2d8 + 4), on both calculations, or on neither? (2) Regarding Striker style and its interaction with the melee cantrips. Let's assume all the same as above, 5th level knight wielding a longsword one-handed to cast glacial blade, except this time, he's striker style instead of resistive style. I interpret the rule to mean that the extra d8 of guaranteed damage from the cantrip, as well as the 2d8 on a failed save, would be subject to re-rolls on a 1 or 2. Is that correct? And as a follow-up, would the rerolls also extend to the 1d8 and 1d4 of the melee attack's damage calculation, or the d8(s) from the cantrip only? Thanks in advance for the clarifications!

cruentus

2016-12-11 13:07:49 +0000 UTC

I'm not super clear on what assumptions you're making here, so allow me to make a general statement about the cantrips: Blade cantrips add some extra damage to a single melee weapon attack, which you make when you cast the cantrip, and add some secondary damage. Sometimes, this extra damage is your spellcasting modifier (for a warmage, this means +Int to damage), and sometimes it's just 1d8. Both the damage of the melee attack and the secondary damage always increase by 1d8 each time the cantrip's damage increases. I hope that clears up your questions.

Mage Hand Press

2016-10-25 00:32:32 +0000 UTC

The blade cantrips are all an action to cast, which means you don't get any additional attacks with them -- your entire action is spent casting the captrip, which involves making one melee weapon attack. Extra Attack only applies to when you take the Attack action, so it doesn't apply here.

Mage Hand Press

2016-10-25 00:26:00 +0000 UTC

As in is it 1st lvl 1d8/1d8 5th lvl 2d8/2d8 11th 3d8/3d8 17th 4d8/4d8

Silver Wing

2016-10-24 23:56:38 +0000 UTC

I have a question about multi attack and the blade cantrips, does having multi atk mean that a player gets three attks with that cantrip (including bonus action melee atk) or is it a choice between two melee atks and a bonus action or two melee spells with using the action to cast the cantrip and the bonus sword swing Also i am unclear about the damage progression of the blade cantrips. Is it (1 die on hit+1 more die on the failed save and adding a die to each catagorie at each lvl progression or is something else bevause i am not clear on the wording

Silver Wing

2016-10-24 23:52:11 +0000 UTC

Thanks! Wasn't sure cause you didn't need the attack roll to hit a space, so It'd maybe only work when targeting things, idk. It was weird. Thanks for clarification!

John Hoffman

2016-10-13 07:47:30 +0000 UTC

You can target creature, spaces, and objects up to 240 feet away, rather than 120 feet away. EDIT: Upon further review, you can only target objects and creatures up to 240 feet away. Since targeting a space does not require a ranged attack roll, Extended Range does not effect Phantom Grapnel when used in this way.

Mage Hand Press

2016-10-11 15:22:29 +0000 UTC

How does Phantom Grapnel work with the Extended Range trick?

John Hoffman

2016-10-11 09:35:49 +0000 UTC

Anytime, thanks for being thorough

Mage Hand Press

2016-09-29 20:33:49 +0000 UTC

Ok, I just wanted to make sure. Thank you.

Ryan Slawson

2016-09-29 20:23:51 +0000 UTC

I fixed the Grapnel thing and the order order thing (I'm not even going to put that second one in the changelog). Spells from SCAG, as well as spells from other sources, including those that haven't been released yet, are covered under the Wizard Cantrips sidebar on the next page.

Mage Hand Press

2016-09-29 20:20:57 +0000 UTC

Scratch that for Shillelagh, it is at the bottom, and out of alphabetical order, my bad.

Ryan Slawson

2016-09-29 20:05:14 +0000 UTC

Also, shilleigh is not on the spell list.

Ryan Slawson

2016-09-29 20:03:49 +0000 UTC

Also, I noticed that phantom grapnel is not on the warmage spell list, as well as everything from Elemental Evil, and from SCAG. Were these intentional, or was it left off to save space?

Ryan Slawson

2016-09-29 20:02:59 +0000 UTC

Just a quick question with the tricks, both mystical weapon master, and flurry of daggers allow you to trow extra daggers. Does this mean if you take both that they stack upon each other or no?

Ryan Slawson

2016-09-29 15:43:54 +0000 UTC

I'm just glad the warmage is still getting so much love XD Happy gaming!

Mage Hand Press

2016-09-25 18:14:29 +0000 UTC

That is quite possible. I didn't see any others when I looked through, and I read the entire document. Those things I saw were so minor too, that most people overlook them. The one that caught me was the one in glacial blade. After I saw that, I decided to go over the document with a fine toothed comb to see if there was anything else to be changed. I will add that I love the update. I have a player playing one based from your original post of it and he loves it so far, and loves the changes as well.

Ryan Slawson

2016-09-25 18:11:01 +0000 UTC

Thanks for spellchecking us! Changes will be implemented shortly. As for you question on Molten Blade: the target only takes additional damage if it remains in its place until the end of its turn. I dare say that this book probably has fewer typos now than actual WoTC stuff XD

Mage Hand Press

2016-09-25 18:00:15 +0000 UTC

Sorry it didnt keep the formatting that I had in it. It makes it a bit harder to see the changes.

Ryan Slawson

2016-09-25 16:47:41 +0000 UTC

Read through this, and I love all the changes, both major and monir. I did however notice a couple of things that could be fixed. Most are simple spelling mistakes, but a couple are rules questions and fixes. House of Bishops: Spellcasting: “Spells known of 1st-Level or Higher. You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the conjuration and evocation spells on the wizard spell list. The Spells Known column of the Bishop Spellcasting table shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be a conjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be a conjuration or evocation spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 8th or 14th level.” Should be: “Spells known of 1st-Level or Higher. You know three 1st-level wizard spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from the conjuration and evocation spells on the wizard spell list. The Spells Known column of the Bishop Spellcasting table shows when you learn more wizard spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be a conjuration or evocation spell of your choice, except for the spells learned at 8th, and 14th level, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be a conjuration or evocation spell, unless you’re replacing the spell you gained at 8th or 14th level.” Rooks Flight: “At 7th level, you can take the dash or hide action as a bonus action.” Should be: “At 7th level, you can take the Dash or Hide action as a bonus action.” Rook’s Flash: “Once you use this ability, you must make a short or long rest before you can do so again.” Should be: “Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.” Glacial Blade: “If the target is then hit again by an attack before the beginning if your next turn, the target takes an additional 1d8 cold damage.” Should be: “If the target is then hit again by an attack before the beginning of your next turn, the target takes an additional 1d8 cold damage.” Molten Blade: “Additionally, flame fills the space around the target. Until the start of your next turn, any creature that enters the space or ends its turn there takes 1d8 fire damage.” Does this mean that the target takes that damage no matter what on their next turn? Springheel: “When you cast this spell, your jump distance increases 10 feet until for the duration,” Should be: “When you cast this spell, your jump distance increases by 10 feet for the duration,” Thundering Blade: “Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level (2d8), and 17th level (3d8).” Should be: “Both damage rolls increase by 1d8 at 11th level (2d8/3d8), and 17th level (3d8/4d8).”

Ryan Slawson

2016-09-25 16:45:55 +0000 UTC

Ah, yeah, you're right. So yeah, I guess Spell Sniper is the only way to make reach work, though I agree with the Finger. I'd easily make an exception for one of my players if they wanted to do something like that.

David Ramey

2016-08-13 21:47:20 +0000 UTC

My DM and I both agreed that it wasn't the greatest feature. As Nikos said, it sort of flattens out the strengths and weaknesses of everyone. We both agreed to house rule the feature with an ASI.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-11 12:47:08 +0000 UTC

(Not to disagree with the Palm -- he's correct by RAW, and this is what we intend with the feature. Just want to add that this is an area where I would bend a rule if one of my players asked me to. Basically, I don't think it's hugely broken either way in the context of the class.)

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-11 07:25:18 +0000 UTC

That actually doesn't work. Flexible range requires a spell attack, whereas the blade spells have a range and require a melee weapon attack to work. This is as intended.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-11 07:19:11 +0000 UTC

Just take the Flexible Range trick if you want to use Blade cantrips with reach weapons.

David Ramey

2016-08-11 00:35:01 +0000 UTC

The problem is that the way that is written now it practically makes every save (yours and your teammates) be your INT save which is probably your highest save so everyone close enough has in every save +7 bonus at 6th level you have practically made the front line highly resistant to spell effects and the like a DM would have to make changes to a creatures abilities to compensate for this. With what you have done you eliminate weak save altogether a paladins aura of protection would if he had a CHA of 18 just given a +4 and in later levels a +5 at most (yes it would give a strong save a boost but you were going to probably succeed in that save anyway and it help sore up any weak saves a bit but it doesn't make you proficient with that save and making the stat effectively the highest stat for the purposes of the save) Warmage tactics at later levels can reach up to +11 in every save to the entire party the highest possible bonus you can have with out any effects from magic items now if you also have a paladin in the group that can range from a +14 to +16. This doesn't seem like a problem to you? I understand and I respect that you don't want to change this but please look at the numbers and look what the finger said about it not being equivalent to the paladins aura of protection. Yeah changing it back to the original text that mirrored the aura of protection and adding the line that it doesn't stack with similar class features that add to saving throws might be the best solution.

Nikos Fragkos

2016-08-10 15:39:36 +0000 UTC

Final point: EVERY option we have tried so far, and most of the ones suggested, are more complicated and weaker than simply adding a line to the original ability that states that it doesn't stack with similar class features that add a bonus to saving throws.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-10 13:07:19 +0000 UTC

I understand that I may sound a bit salty about this, but we have made a LOT of changes to the class through the lens of theory instead of practice. Now, most of them have been appropriate, but there's been so much contention over this one specific ability that we NEED to lock it down and get a few games with it out of the way. Then, and only then, will we think about changing it again.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-10 13:02:54 +0000 UTC

This feature is going to stay as it currently is; I'm closing the book on it. Here's the math on WHY: At level 6, with a standard stat array and one ASI, it's VERY easy to get an 18 in a given score, granting a +4 bonus. The paladin can grant this bonus to ALL teammates, Making sure that (again, with a standard array) the lowest possible saving throw bonus for the party is +3 (8 stat score in a non-proficient save), whereas the highest possible save is a +11 (Prof+18 stat+Paladin aura). With this version, at level 6, that allows everyone to use a +7 to their saves: It shores up weaknesses, but it doesn't really help you boost your strengths. In either case, this is what the ability is going to be. If further playtesting proves that it's unbalanced, then we'll do errata, but we're not going to be changing it now.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-10 12:48:43 +0000 UTC

Well, they CAN, just not at reach. If you take the Spell Sniper feat, that would extend the range of the blade cantrips to 10 feet; you still need to hit with a melee attack, however, so that's were a whip or polearm comes into play.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-10 12:47:10 +0000 UTC

I don't think I can justify that in this rules paradigm. Would I say something like 'when a number of your allies up to your Intelligence modifier simultaneously make a saving throw'? Reactions need a trigger, and that's really hard to talk about in a way that makes sense with your recommended feature. Also, if we went the Int mod number of creatures route, the effect would basically be the same as now, except it would consume your reaction and only apply once per turn; but how often does the party make saving throws anyway? I don't think that's a significant change to the feature's power -- it just makes it more complex.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-10 07:57:21 +0000 UTC

That is why a suggested allowing the thing to effect a number of creatures that you can see equal to half your INT mod rounded up so you can effect more that just one with a single reaction.

Nikos Fragkos

2016-08-10 07:02:23 +0000 UTC

Out of the four I suggested, I think I like that one the least, actually, since it then only applies cover to single-target effects. If something like a fireball goes off, you're probably only going to save yourself. Still, I reserve my decision until the Palm has weighed in on this one.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-10 06:45:14 +0000 UTC

I believe the reaction is the best solution in fact i was about to suggested I feel it keeps the feel of the feature without overpowering it. Or make it give the effect to a number of creatures equal to half your intelligence modifier probably rounded down/up i am not sure still keeping the reaction thing

Nikos Fragkos

2016-08-10 06:09:03 +0000 UTC

So let's talk solutions. I like the idea that this is a defensive feature which interacts with your party and assists them in some way using your intelligence, since this really sells the idea of 'tactics'. - We could return this feature to just +Int for party members, but limit it to saving throws from spells, since warmages are very proficient in hazardous magic, and would have expertise in avoiding it. - We could keep it a save replacement, but make it a reaction which affects one creature you can see. - We could migrate away from saving throws altogether and allow you and allies to use Int in place of another ability score for an ability check (really doubles down on the idea of using tactics, rather than brute strength, but makes it more of a non-combat feature.) - We could make this more like a once/short your or ally gets advantage on a saving throw.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-10 06:02:40 +0000 UTC

Yeah I was doing the math and think if you have a warmage in party with a paladin now every save is e.g if u have 18 INT a +4 + proficiency lets say 3 and on top the paladins aura of proteciton lets say +2 from CHA in all their saves

Nikos Fragkos

2016-08-10 05:54:56 +0000 UTC

Now that digging deeper into this, I think you're right that things need a change. I believe that the paladin Aura of Protection might not be a level-appropriate feature to compare to at all. Compare the Monk, which gets proficiency in all saving throws at level 14. That's a whole 8 levels later, the benefit isn't nearly as powerful, and it only affects himself. Our current iteration basically offers this monk feature + always using your highest ability score. Perhaps, this paladin feature is more powerful than it should be since it's intended to be a core feature for the class; a selling point, if you will. Or perhaps, the paladin aura is predicated on the idea that your Charisma will never get all that high -- it's not your damage-dealing ability score, strength likely is. The issue here is that Intelligence /will/ likely be at 20 for a warmage, so this feature is far, far more powerful than intended.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-10 05:50:33 +0000 UTC

I'd be happy to reopen the discussion on this, if we can find a better alternative. Aura of Protection had stacking problems with the original Warmage tactics, allowing characters to add the paladin's Charisma to the Warmage's Intelligence as a bonus to their saving throws. Even if this didn't stack, the fact that it was a bonus meant that you could add your proficiency to one of your saving throws and still get a +5 bonus on top of that. These very high saving throws were something of a concern of mine, especially if there was a paladin to buff the party further. The current iterations /replaces/ the save, rather than adding to it as a bonus. This is a lot more homogenous -- everyone get's your Int save, which is higher than just adding your Intelligence modifier if the save wouldn't have been proficient, but lower if the save would have been proficient. Hopefully the math here is clear.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-10 05:41:46 +0000 UTC

I see I just read the discussion below but the change you made just made the problem worst now every save is as powerful as your highest save you have no weak saves. You don't see how this is game breaking ? If you intend to keep it that way I don't believe that i can change your mind but there must be another way do achieve something similar without the problem that you seem to have with aura of protection.

Nikos Fragkos

2016-08-10 05:24:52 +0000 UTC

Presumably. This follows precedent set by SCAG's booming blade and green flame blade, so we're not planning on messing with it.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-10 04:40:10 +0000 UTC

There's a lot of discussion about this below, but compare and contrast the paladin's Aura of Protection.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-10 04:35:34 +0000 UTC

I noticed the Blade cantrips have a range of 5 feet. Does that mean they can't be used with polearms or other reach weapons?

Josh Smyth

2016-08-09 23:55:08 +0000 UTC

Got it I understand why you changed it after adding the defensive fighting style for the pawn

Nikos Fragkos

2016-08-09 23:24:15 +0000 UTC

Warmage Tactics if I am not reading this wrong allows you and your party members that are close enough to get arguably your most powerful saving throw to be used as any saving throw without any limit at 6th level doesn't that look a bit overpowered, maybe it should be either only be limited to aoe effects or maybe a number of times equal to your int mod per day. In a different note I love the class that's why I criticize it you have done a very good job.

Nikos Fragkos

2016-08-09 23:14:15 +0000 UTC

Fixed.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-09 01:39:39 +0000 UTC

This may be the most badass thing anyone has come up with for this class yet.

Grimeagle

2016-08-09 00:21:27 +0000 UTC

Huh. That is 100% an oversight. We'll fix that right away.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-08 23:53:52 +0000 UTC

You only gain the AC bonus while wearing Light armor, Medium Armor, or while using the Mage Armor Spell. Having proficiency in said armor does not mean you cannot use the fighting style.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-08 23:53:08 +0000 UTC

Does the Resistive Arcane Fighting style apply to heavy armor as well or does someone that takes a feat to gain proficiency with heavy armor loses the +1 to AC

Nikos Fragkos

2016-08-08 20:34:55 +0000 UTC

Did this change get veto'd? Or just pushed down on the list of changes to make?

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-08 19:10:22 +0000 UTC

I just noticed this while looking up magic items for my Warmage. The Warmage does not have the Spellcasting Focus feature, which means (despite it's name) a warmage would not be able to use a 'Wand of the Warmage' as a spellcasting focus, and not be able to cast spells with the same hand that is holding the wand.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-08 18:21:30 +0000 UTC

Of course, but very befitting flavor-wise for a King Warmage. Sweet, well thanks for the information!

David Ramey

2016-08-08 01:27:31 +0000 UTC

Yup, that's true. Granted, it requires you to invest two tricks into getting that type of impressive range, but it's pretty sweet once it's yours.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-08 00:17:39 +0000 UTC

Glad to hear it. I know it's hard to remember eeeeverything, especially small nitpick things like that. Also, one further question: With the Flexible Range and Extended Range tricks, does that effectively make Mystical Blade have a range of 60 ft.? I'm just making sure that I'm processing that right, and that it's intended to be that way, because if so, that's a pretty cool effect, flavor-wise.

David Ramey

2016-08-08 00:03:51 +0000 UTC

Yeah, I meant to change that earlier, when we made some other changes to the Blade cantrips - that one just slipped through my fingers. I'll do it tonight

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-07 23:27:41 +0000 UTC

No, that seems like an appropriate change.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-07 23:04:57 +0000 UTC

Looking great, guys! I love the updates. My friends and I are going to all playtest the class soon, so I'll let you know how it goes. I'd like to reiterate one of my previous suggestions though: the cantrips that have a lingering effect (Acidic Blade, Glacial Blade, Molten Blade) should likely have a duration of 1 round instead of instantaneous, as the effect hasn't actually finished yet, similar to how Mystical Blade and Booming Blade (SCAG) are, or is the instantaneous duration an intentional change to those particular ones?

David Ramey

2016-08-07 22:37:55 +0000 UTC

Yes. It is to the Warmage what Eldritch Blast is to the Warlock.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-07 16:36:50 +0000 UTC

So, is force dart the warmage version of a simple high damage cantrip now? Like Eldritch Blast?

Grimeagle

2016-08-07 15:57:09 +0000 UTC

This should be d10s at higher levels -- mistake on my part when we updated the feature. I'll change that right away.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-06 19:32:49 +0000 UTC

question about the Force Dart.. it says the damage increases by 1d6 still (even if the normal spell deals 1d10) as example it says at lvl 5 it increases by 1d6 to 2d6.. should this be 2d10 or not?

Patrick van der Linde

2016-08-06 18:37:40 +0000 UTC

I might be looking into making a series of alternate elemental-themed houses for the Warmage, since part of the original inspiration for the class are the State Alchemists of Full Metal Alchemist. Your lightning throne may not be gone for good :-) Also, reducing the damage of Siege casting to 1/turn was kind of important: with 1d6 per hit, they had an unlimited use Hex that was on all the time on every creature, and that was too much. I don't know that I would be opposed to maybe having something like Hex or Hunter's Mark on the Bishop spell list, but not in THAT form.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-06 00:54:02 +0000 UTC

Look closely: you only deal a bonus 1d8 once per round. So you get one 2d8 dagger (longsword), then a few more 1d8 ones.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-06 00:11:07 +0000 UTC

It's fine. I'm just glad you guys upped siege casting. Note I can still have a warmage who fires volleys of 2d8 longswords. I said longswords because of the damage of magic daggers being able to become 1d8, a longsword.

Grimeagle

2016-08-05 23:32:16 +0000 UTC

That's a wonderful character archetype and I'm sorry we removed the feature. Let it be said that elemental crafting wasn't the most balanced of features in the original warmage, and as a whole, things are probably better now that it's gone. Still, I still mourne the loss of your lightning throne XD

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-05 23:28:52 +0000 UTC

Can someone say Egotist?

Grimeagle

2016-08-05 20:34:29 +0000 UTC

I'm still sad about Elemental Crafting being removed. It was fun making a throne out of lightning and wind while my Magic Daggers flew at the enemy.

Grimeagle

2016-08-05 20:33:41 +0000 UTC

So, I think the Palm can probably chime in better with the math (I might forget something), but I'll give it a try: Assuming 11th level human with 18 Str, 18 Int, Extra Attack, Dueling Fighting Style, and longsword Action (cantrip), bonus action (attack): 1d8 + 4 + 2d8 cold + (8 + 2d8 cold if attacked again) + 1d8 + 4 + (4 for dueling) avg = 47. Now, this is somewhat hard to compare against, since I don't know what to use in comparison. If we're talking the lowest base line: a no-subclass fighter using a greatsword and no fighting style of 11th level (20 Str, 3 attacks) deals: 6d6+15. avg = 36. Already, this is higher than a warmage if the bonus damage of the cantrip doesn't activate. Also, expected damage increases when we add in the great weapon fighting style and improved critical, but these make the math much more complex, so we'll keep things simple for now. In conclusion, it looks like the warmage might be dealing more damage each round, but not by that much. And the fighter still gets heavy armor, and significantly more hit points to boot.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-04 07:58:57 +0000 UTC

Just because my GM is worried about balance: How would you compare the damage of a fully executed Glacial Blade by a House of the Knight Warmage (So the bonus attack after the cantrip is used to trigger the spell's effect) vs other classes? He's worried the damage is too high.

Grimeagle

2016-08-04 07:07:01 +0000 UTC

Looking at the current wording, I don't think it needs a change. The wording is pretty clear.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-03 20:35:33 +0000 UTC

House of Pawns: Defensive Casting. Should the wording of the OA feature match that of the War Caster feat? The edit would look like: (edits in square brackets) "...and when a [hostile] creature['s movement] provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a cantrip[, rather than making an opportunity attack. The cantrip must have a casting time of 1 action and target only that creature.]"

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-03 19:47:58 +0000 UTC

Well, you should be able to have your weapon on you constantly. As it is, this ability is a mix of the Warlock's Blade Pact (which takes an action) and the Eldritch Knight's Weapon Bond (which takes a bonus action), so there are arguments for each.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-03 18:10:15 +0000 UTC

Too bad, i was hoping to be able to use my action to pull out a weapon, and a bonus to cast shillelagh or mystical buckler.

Grimeagle

2016-08-03 17:39:44 +0000 UTC

This is probably the right course to take for at least a few of the cantrips (e.g. the aforementioned Create Bonfire), so we'll put in the change.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-03 17:30:02 +0000 UTC

So any thoughts on removing specific cantrip requirements for these spells? As it stands now, a Warmage with only the Create Bonfire cantrip would not qualify to take the Explosive Cantrip trick, even though that cantrip would benefit from the trick's features. This seems like it would be similar future proofing like with the Warmage Tactics not naming specific class features.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-03 14:47:37 +0000 UTC

Yes, those changes make sense. Those spells SHOULD emulate Booming Blade and GFB as much as possible.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-03 11:58:09 +0000 UTC

With Armory going to a bonus action, I can now realize my idea of creating Emiya Shirou in 5e. Trace on! Also, a couple of things I'd like to point out: the duration for the Blade spells like Molten Blade and Acidic Blade that have lingering effects I believe should be 1 round instead of Instantaneous, following the precedence of Booming Blade from SCAG. Also, do all of the Blade spells need Somatic components? Because Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade do not. Just wondering if this was an addition or something. I was also going to point out a typo in Quickstep or Springheel, but it appears that it was fixed in the recent release.

David Ramey

2016-08-03 11:38:51 +0000 UTC

Yeah, I'm starting to think that's the case. I would certainly be nice to swap mid-combat without skipping an attack action. I'll go ahead and push that change through.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-03 06:55:54 +0000 UTC

Wouldn't "knight's armory" make more sense as a bonus action? As it stands it takes an entire turn to switch out a weapon for another.

A Bear

2016-08-03 03:47:56 +0000 UTC

It's been updated to reflect this change.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-03 01:42:05 +0000 UTC

What about 'each time a warmage cantrip inflicts damage, the WM may increase that damage by an amount equal to their intelligence modifier.'

Altanius

2016-08-03 00:32:28 +0000 UTC

That would likely be the intent. I could easily see the two names being using in a fashion to Captain/Commodore in the Navy: Both are of equal rank, but the Captain is tho one who is in charge of the ship. The Lore in the PDF (That I made up out of nowhere, so take that for what you will) is that the organizational ranks roughly follow the ranks of the US Military, since that is what I have experience in: Master General would be equivilent to a 5 star, House General would be the equivilent of a 4 star, and so on and so forth till you get down to the grunt privates. That said, I really like the idea that the Queen/King split has nothing to do with the gender of the Warmage as it has to do with their choices to either lead from the front or lead from the rear.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-02 22:49:20 +0000 UTC

That... that makes a fair bit of sense. Those who are Kings focus on commanding the troops, while the Queens are more like vanguards leading the battle. Right?

Grimeagle

2016-08-02 22:38:57 +0000 UTC

The Intended concept is that Queens/Kings are from the same house, Kings, they just take different titles based on the leader being a Male or a Female (or, you know, identifying as such). This is why the house of Kings gets access to Queen's Charge and Queen's Gambit tricks in addition to Kings Stand.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-02 22:37:47 +0000 UTC

That's a really cool idea of queens being warmages that master styles of two houses, but mechanically, how would this be accomplished?

Corey Heward

2016-08-02 21:49:22 +0000 UTC

Because of the way it's set up, I imagine, because queens basically have the abilities of rooks and bishops, I imagine Queens are actually the leaders of the other houses. They are the ones who mastered the skills of two different houses.

Grimeagle

2016-08-02 21:23:47 +0000 UTC

I love the concept and how it has such a great theme to it, I am already thinking of ways to add this entire concept to my game in a large way. My question and comment is more of a thematic nature. Each house is based off a chess piece, but you are missing one, the queen. Now I can see how not wanting a house of queens as that is a bit of an odd choice for name when the rest of the houses do have decidedly masculine names, but the queen is an amazingly strategic piece with some chess strategies rely on her, or sacrificing her in a way that ensures victory by forcing you opponent to over extend himself. The King on the other hand is designed in such a way to allow for an amazing freedom of direction with a limit of movement so that he is capable of moving without you the player wanting to use him readily. There are so many design choices and philosophy behind the design of these two pieces that many long and somewhat boring books have been written on the subject. So then, as the house of Queens is odd and many of the abilities would inevitably be similar to both the house of kings and bishops, would it not then make sense to call the house of kings the house of royals or something similar? Also, it feels like one of the prominent warmages should have the title of queen, as every warmage who is aspiring for greatness would try to emulate that most powerful of chess pieces.

Corey Heward

2016-08-02 21:16:59 +0000 UTC

Hmm...that's not intended. Wording should be changed to reflect that. Good catch!

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-02 17:39:51 +0000 UTC

It only adds to damage 'rolls.' If you're just inflicting your ability modifier there's no roll, so by RAW you don't add the Warmage Edge.

Altanius

2016-08-02 17:17:54 +0000 UTC

Only reason I wouldn't add those in is that there are no cantrips on the Warmage list that deal Radiant or Psychic damage. Sage warmages do get Sacred Flame, but this is more intended to show that they come from divine caster stock.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-02 17:16:00 +0000 UTC

Not true. Warmage edge always adds your spellcasting modifier to the damage roll of your warmage spells, even if they already do so; that's one of the things that makes them awesome.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-02 17:13:20 +0000 UTC

So my only problem with the revamped cantrips is that the ones that just do spell-casting mod mean that the Warmage doesn't use his Warmage's Edge, which is one of the primary features of the class.

Altanius

2016-08-02 17:02:01 +0000 UTC

That's fine, I was mostly just presenting them as ideas to cover all the damage types.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 13:46:56 +0000 UTC

You'd have to put both of those on limited usage, like the stunning trick.

Altanius

2016-08-02 13:40:48 +0000 UTC

Yes, and yes.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-02 11:33:57 +0000 UTC

Along that same vein, here's a trick suggestion or two: Righteous Cantrip Prerequisites: 5th level and a cantrip that deals radiant damage When you deal radiant damage to a creature with a warmage cantrip, that creature must make a Wisdom saving throw, or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn. Glamorous Cantrip Prerequisites: 5th level and a cantrip that deals psychic damage When you deal psychic damage to a creature with a warmage cantrip, that creature must make a Charisma saving throw, or be charmed by you until the end of your next turn.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 11:21:20 +0000 UTC

Warmage Tricks: Blasting, Booming, Caustic, etc. With the sidebar in the spell section recognizing that additional supplements might include wizard cantrips that could be used as Warmage cantrips (nice by the way, I didn't notice that sidebar until after I deleted all the SCAG and EE spells out of my spellbook), would it be better to have the prerequisites of these tricks be "cantrip that deals fire damage"? That way a Warmage could qualify for the trick, without having to take a 'currently' known cantrip?

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 10:29:57 +0000 UTC

Mystical Weaponmaster/Mystical Athlete Tricks. Should the prerequisites require both cantrips? Or just one of them? With the athlete trick, I realize it effects both, but for a low level trick, it seems like a high cost to require 2 cantrips in order to take the trick. At 2nd level, that would leave only 1 additional cantrip if a character wants this trick. A player could certainly plan to take the other cantrip later, in order to get the full effect of the trick.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 10:23:17 +0000 UTC

Blinding Light Trick. Thoughts on adding Dancing Lights to this trick? Us scholars are feeling left out. ;) I suppose it would essentially make it an 120 foot ranged blinding effect, which might be a little overkill...

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 10:13:25 +0000 UTC

Warmage Edge. I noticed in the latest version that it says you add your INT mod to the damage of any Warmage *spell* you cast. So this would include the Bishop's non-cantrip spells then? Also, this is probably clear, but I wanted to double check, you still add your INT mod to damage even if the spell is already adding your spellcasting bonus, right?

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 10:10:34 +0000 UTC

A minor quibble, I would alter the new version to: (edits in square brackets) "...You add the mastery die to the attack's damage roll, and the target must make a Charisma Saving throw. On a failed save, the target must [immediately] use it's reaction[, if available,] to move up to half its speed directly away from you." This uses the same language as Dissonant Whispers, because the effect is essentially the same.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 09:50:46 +0000 UTC

I both hope, and do not hope, that was a pun...

Christopher Hartland

2016-08-02 07:41:32 +0000 UTC

Update for this thread: Check now uses a reaction. The Blade spell family have had reworked damage -- basically, each spell deals 1d8 or spellcasting mod, not 1d8+spellcasting mod, which has gotten their expected damage totals back in line.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 07:32:20 +0000 UTC

The Palm and I have each run a warmage at our tables -- they're a total blast.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 07:30:07 +0000 UTC

It's included now as an aura.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 07:27:55 +0000 UTC

I think, as you say, changing it to just spell attacks and ranged weapon attacks will reduce the potency just enough to be good without being too much for a first level ability. The rest of the Arcane Fighting Style abilities look fine. I want to start a new campaign now so I can play a Warmage!

Christopher Hartland

2016-08-02 07:27:31 +0000 UTC

I think allowing it to affect spell attacks and ranged weapon attacks keeps the feel without making it free Shield all the time. We'll change it to that, see how it plays.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-02 06:58:26 +0000 UTC

A point to make, that will get fixed immediately: Explosive cantrip is NOT intended to effect the original target. The trick should read "when you deal fire damage to a creature with a warmage cantrip, all OTHER creatures except yourself within 5 feet must make a dexterity saving throw or take half the damage dealt." This definitely changes several of the damage calculations in terms of single-target damage. At MOST, a blaster, 10th level Bishop should be doing 4d12+1d6+5 damage with firebolt to a single target.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-02 06:54:41 +0000 UTC

Yeah, like I said higher lows, lower highs. Basically all of your saves would be good, but not great, and you'd never hit the crazy saves. It'd still be pretty powerful if combined with with Aura of Protection, but not ridiculous.Did you still want to make it an Aura, or should it just be limited to the Warmage?

Altanius

2016-08-02 05:07:44 +0000 UTC

Precisely -- if we went this route, I wouldn't have to worry about blowing any saving throws up to +16

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 05:03:52 +0000 UTC

So basically, you and everyone within 10/30 feet of you has your int save for their every save? Hmm... Higher lows, lower highs. As compared to the Paladin, I mean.

Altanius

2016-08-02 04:54:17 +0000 UTC

I would favor the former over the later, but I suppose I'll just have to eagerly await your changes. :D

Altanius

2016-08-02 03:03:50 +0000 UTC

That depends on what the Palm would like done with this feature. Given the choice, I would keep this feature largely the same, but it would only grant you the bonus to saving throws, or I would allow you to use your intelligence modifier in place of another saving throw. Edit: Actually, that second effect, allowing an allied creature to use your Intelligence saving throw bonus in place of their own, might be the right solution here. It feel thematically correct, in a mind over matter kind of way. How does this sound: Warmage Tactics Starting at 6th level, whenever you or a friendly creature within 10 feet of you must make a saving throw, the creature can use your Intelligence modifier and saving throw proficiency bonus on the roll, instead of its own bonus to the roll.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 02:59:04 +0000 UTC

Fair enough. I got that part. I meant are you keeping the same effect (bonus to saves) or substituting in another effect?

Altanius

2016-08-02 02:53:22 +0000 UTC

I mean, Thirsting Blade is called out in the Customization Options chapter, which is basically one giant sidebar to explain rules interactions. I try very hard to make sure we don't need to make lots of call outs to features like that, because we don't have the luxury of such a chapter. I was thinking about letting this benefit (whatever the final incarnation ends up being) just effect the warmage. I'l probably need to brainstorm a little bit to make sure we get a good final product on it.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 02:47:03 +0000 UTC

I'm not sure I agree insofar as calling it out by name. It happens in some Wizard's products (Extra attack calls out Thirsting Blade Specifically as not stacking.) But if you're not good with that, you're not good with that. What do you mean by more self-directed? As in what would the ability do?

Altanius

2016-08-02 02:35:07 +0000 UTC

I literally refuse to call out Oath of Protection by name -- it's really sloppy design, as I've mentioned. And specifying that 'similar features' don't stack isn't specific enough for this level of design. I might be able to specify that you can only add one ability score modifier as a bonus to your saving throws, but it seems awfully sloppy. If I can sway the Palm on this one, I'd much rather change it to a more self-directed, rather than party-directed benefit, since a) it's a different type of feature and I don't have to mess with this stacking nonsense, and b) I think it fits the class's theme a little better

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 02:31:28 +0000 UTC

The difference being any other similar effect would stack. So long long as it's not Identical (or identical in all but name like this feature) it should stack. Specifying that this doesn't stack with Oath of Protection is probably the best way to go.

Altanius

2016-08-02 02:27:35 +0000 UTC

You guys are totally right. This leaves three alternatives: 1. Change the feature into a Str save or force push 2. Cha save or use reaction to move away, provoking 3. Cha save or use movement at beginning of turn to move I'm leaning toward #2 for usability.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 02:25:47 +0000 UTC

Look, I understand -- this is why I opted to use an alternative feature on my last draft. I can't just say 'this doesn't stack with the paladin Oath of Protection feature' because it still opens holes for any other feature that provides a similar benefit, whether or not there is an existing feature that fits that criteria. In fact, I genuinely don't know how to spell this feature out in mechanical terms without it being a ghastly mess to read. 'This bonus doesn't stack with any other bonus to saving throws, except the creature's proficiency bonus to the saving throw, if it has one.'? Ugh.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 02:22:32 +0000 UTC

Actually by RAW it wouldn't even stack with proficiency (Which is a bonus to saving throws.)

Altanius

2016-08-02 02:17:48 +0000 UTC

See, I'm not crazy about this version of Warmage Tactics either. That means that Cloaks/Rings of protection wouldn't stack with the Warmage tactics. I realize magic items are optional, but I still don't think that's the right way to handle it.

Altanius

2016-08-02 02:13:13 +0000 UTC

Ah, yes. Then that would make it 13/21, though with the caveat that the 21 requires them to fail two saves. The other thing I'm wary of is defanging the Warmage. Since the Cantrips are it's main gun, I think care should be taken nerfing them.

Altanius

2016-08-02 01:52:33 +0000 UTC

Ah, I was being dumb then -- I think that cements that it should use a reaction, or move at the beginning of the target's turn. Final decision goes to the Palm, so I'll send this to him right away.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 01:36:10 +0000 UTC

In regards to the acid splash damage. I'm no good with the average damage math stuff, but he is assuming that the Warmage is using the Blaster fighting style, which would make acid splash a d8, and the firebolt a d12. I hope that helps.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 01:34:04 +0000 UTC

We genuinely appreciate the critical eye, too. As Matt mentioned, it's a tightrope walk to keep things unambiguous and yet easy to read, so we'll do our best.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 01:32:54 +0000 UTC

I'm personally cranking my rules lawyering up to 11, because this is for beta-testing and debugging. You have to try to break the game in order to fix it. And that means thinking up all of the nasty ways someone could exploit your class to their advantage. Our tables tend to play fairly RAW, but we know when to RAF.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 01:23:48 +0000 UTC

You're only reading the first paragraph on Opportunity Attacks. In the second paragraph (in the SRD 5.1, pg 95), it states "You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction." This is for example, to keep someone from grappling an enemy, and dragging him past all his allies, provoking multiple OAs.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 01:12:49 +0000 UTC

I'm still not quite getting what your DM is trying to say about Caustic cantrip, but that may be because I'm getting it out of context. Honestly it sounds to me like you play with a lot of rules lawyers at your table. :P I usually play, not judge and I never would've added the half again to the original creature. I assumed it was excluded. That said, I don't disagree, with your intent to remove ambiguity. The problem is (as The Finger has pointed out in the past) if we try to eliminate all ambiguity it looks less like rules and more like a legal contract. That's not fun for anyone.

Altanius

2016-08-02 01:12:32 +0000 UTC

Andrew's right. It's the next paragraph down after the one you quoted Finger.

Altanius

2016-08-02 01:09:07 +0000 UTC

Sorry! that was a mis-read on my part, here's what he sent me: If it's intended not to include the original target, then it it should say so. However, the damage is consistent with Caustic Cantrip, so I'm guess it's intended to do that much, but who knows. (me again): Ambiguous descriptions breed ambiguous rulings. Green-flame Blade states "...leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice..." It has to be specific. And for debugging, always assume the player will squeeze out the maximum amount of damage.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 01:07:10 +0000 UTC

Call me crazy, but: SRD: You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. This seems pretty cut and dry. If you cause someone to move against their will and it's not specifically stated otherwise, they just provoke. (By the way, I think I basically agree with you here, and I think I'll have it use a reaction, but I'd like this to be useful even when your target has already used its reaction.)

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 01:04:19 +0000 UTC

The general assumption is it doesn't include that creature...not the other way around, though I could understand why you would read it that way. And for Caustic Cantrip, I have no clue what you mean. It's nothing like explosive cantrip. It causes half the damage again the next turn, if it fails a dex save. Edit: Ignore the first part. More hold-over from 3.5 rules in my brain. It should specify that (And I'm 95% sure that's the intent.) The caustic part stands though.

Altanius

2016-08-02 01:00:14 +0000 UTC

My DM's reply to Finger: The rule for Opportunity Attacks is that "You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction" (PHB p195). Essentially, you provoke when you spend some kind of action to move, or you use your movement that you get each turn (which is what "movement" means in the technical game sense). Hence why Dissonant Whispers provokes OAs (since it uses your reaction to move you), while most other forms of forced movement do not. If the target has already used its reaction, then it simply doesn't move, just like Dissonant Whispers. The change would improve the maneuver in one way (force enemies to waste their reactions), and weaken it in another way (doesn't move them if they've used their reaction).

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 00:54:29 +0000 UTC

Making a new thread for the Check Maneuver so we don't go crazy scrolling through these jumbled comment threads: My last comment: Opportunity Attacks only trigger when a creature uses it's own movement to move away. Making a target use it's reaction to move means that it's the target moving. Moving a target without using a reaction is the mechanical equivalent to a push, which doesn't trigger Opportunity Attacks. In regards to a target that doesn't have a reaction: Same result as with Dissonant Whispers, the target doesn't move. Personally, it makes more sense to me to have the maneuver push the target. Which means a STR save, not a CHA save. Within the theme of chess, where a Check maneuver is an intimidating maneuver for the opposing player, a CHA save makes sense, as the target would be reacting to that intimidation. If they don't have a reaction, then they can't run away. Same goes with Dissonant Whispers, they want to run away because of the horrible sounds, but if they don't have a reaction, they can't.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 00:52:27 +0000 UTC

We're assuming that "each creature except yourself within 5 feet of the target" includes the target of the cantrip to take half damage. Caustic Cantrip works in much the same way. If it's not intended to include the original target, then it should say so.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 00:50:09 +0000 UTC

That's always been a concern of mine, and it is most definitely something I want to have a discussion about as time goes on. Right now, I'm happier than I have been about the 1 level dip for this class, and I don't think it begs any huge changes. That being said, I think Deflector might be a little powerful in general, and now that I look at it closely, I'm starting to think we should change it to affect only ranged attacks or only melee and ranged spell attacks. Thoughts?

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 00:45:16 +0000 UTC

[EDIT] I copied my comment to a new thread for the Check Maneuver. Let's try to keep this thread focused on Blade Cantrips.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 00:41:44 +0000 UTC

Why are you assuming a 1.5 times increase on the Firebolt's Damage? Also, your math for the acid splash damage is off too. It'd be 11 on the first turn, 16 on the turns after that (Assuming the target had failed to save the turn before.)

Altanius

2016-08-02 00:39:22 +0000 UTC

That might be the case. I've emailed the Palm to make sure he agrees with me on the changes I'd like to make before pushing them into the next iteration. Hopefully, the damage numbers will be fixed sometime this evening.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 00:33:50 +0000 UTC

I actually somewhat disagree finger. Especially given that it's their gimmick I might've been tempted to limit the Cantrips. I probably would've made the 'Blade' cantrips exclusive to the Warmage. Also, powerful though they are, A) Most spellcasters have better things to do with their actions and B) (Warlocks notwithstanding) most spellcasters aren't interested in closing to the melee range necessary to use these spells.

Altanius

2016-08-02 00:33:21 +0000 UTC

Oh, I see. I suspect the + Att modifier in the spells is either a typo or a hold-over from an earlier edition of the Warmage (Otherwise the warmage would be adding their Int twice.)

Altanius

2016-08-02 00:31:12 +0000 UTC

I'm with Andrew on this one -- cantrips are intended to be universal, and should stick very close to the power curve, even if they are released with the warmage. The warmage class features which enhance their cantrips are what make their cantrips more powerful than the same ones cast by other spellcasters. I'm working on the cantrip damage issue right now, then I'll move onto things like Check (which really should be sequestered into its own comment thread.) Quick comment about Check: I don't see why it would't trigger Opportunity Attacks -- the only issue is about reactions. If we are to say that if the target has to use its reaction moving, what is your intended result if the target has already used its reaction?

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-02 00:30:24 +0000 UTC

Reply: All of these spells are offered to the other arcane casters as well, and they're easily pluckable through Magic Initiate. If the Warmage has trouble with weapon attacks dealing sufficient damage, then that's on the Warmage class to fix. Overpowered universal cantrips are not the solution.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-02 00:13:45 +0000 UTC

The piece you seem to be missing is that these cantrips are the warmages entire act. They are to him what the attack action is to a fighter. For that purpose, they're balanced fine, and the SCAG spells are underpowered. As for check, we'll have to wait till the finger gets back and see what he says.

Altanius

2016-08-02 00:06:36 +0000 UTC

Honestly, given the option, I'd keep as is and mention it doesn't stack with the pally, but the finger seemed reticent to pick that.

Altanius

2016-08-02 00:00:51 +0000 UTC

Hmm?

Altanius

2016-08-01 23:58:47 +0000 UTC

Reply: Mage Hand is a cantrip, so you can keep it up outside of combat in dangerous situations if Skilled Hand is not limited use. In addition, you can cast and bonus action attack with it on the same turn, so the first turn setup cost is not even that high if you have to do it in combat. The lack of movement is a problem in some combats, and a non-issue in others, which I see as more of an annoying inconsistency rather than a good feature. With my proposed changes, the trick would be more consistent since you can move it as part of the bonus action, though it's more costly since it's limited use. Honest, since each use takes up an entire combat, the limited use part doesn't actually weaken the trick significantly, as you're unlikely to have that many combats a day, and the movement addition is a big anti-frustration feature. The biggest issue it prevents is pre-casting Mage Hand constantly outside of combat. My math assumed 5th to 7th level, so only +4 from stats. At 8th to 10th level, the damage is +2 for EB and +1.5 for Firebolt, which is not a significant change. Obviously I included Agonizing Blast in EB, and I was assuming the higher cantrip damage die for Warmage. Explosive Cantrip multiplies Fire Bolt's damage by 1.5x, not counting AOE and the saving throw (which balances each other out somewhat). Breakdown: EB is 2d10 (11) + 8 + 2d6 (7) = 26. Warmage Fire Bolt is 2d12 (13) + 4 = 17 x 1.5 = 25.5. I made a small math mistake on the Fire Bolt, but the end result is almost the same.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 23:55:24 +0000 UTC

Is there that much of a difference besides being able to summon any weapon?

Grimeagle

2016-08-01 23:44:42 +0000 UTC

Also, Warmages have very few cantrips that have saves on damage.

Grimeagle

2016-08-01 23:43:41 +0000 UTC

Skilled hand isn't quite as strong as you're thinking it is, mostly because the action economy isn't fantastic. You have to use an action to cast mage hand, and you also have to use your action to move it around. It makes for a useful tool for a knight, who can cast, move, and use a bonus action to continue attacking, but in most cases it won't realistically get the chance to do the kind of damage you're thinking it will. Also, your math for damage is off, or I need more information on what your assumptions are: to be properly comparable, you'd need to include agonizing blast. At level 5, (assuming 20 int/cha, and hex/agonizing blast) EB is doing 2d10+10+2d6 (avg. 28), and Firebolt is doing 2d10+5 (avg. 16).

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-01 23:06:06 +0000 UTC

I don't see a reason why an additional statement mentioning similar effects not stacking wouldn't be appropriate. I don't particularly like taking the NAMES of specific abilities, even if their effects are quite similar, otherwise I'd have just named it Aura of Protection in the first place. I'm not keen on changing this to a Potent Cantrip like ability, because the class would be sorely lacking in defensive abilities otherwise (what this ability was designed to give). I wouldn't specifically mind it only applying to spell effects, but that makes it an altogether inferior ability to Aura of Protection.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-01 22:47:56 +0000 UTC

Additional comments from my DM (Splitting them into another comment thread so the replies don't get too long). He and I had a discussion about Skilled Hands, and Checkmate, and I think his latest response is worth sharing, since those features haven't come up yet in discussion: Skilled Hand: At this point, Warmage does not need a bonus action attack to be competitive on damage. In tier 2, warlock does 26 average damage a turn with Eldritch Blast + Hex. Warmage does 27 average damage a turn with Fire Bolt + Explosive Cantrip (not even counting the potential AOE), or 21 damage a turn with Acid Splash + Caustic Cantrip (on one target; if you hit two with it, that's 42 average). Add in the much easier reaction attack, and Warmage does a fair bit more repeatable damage than Warlock (which is fair enough in a sense, since Warlock has more limited use power). In any case, a reliable source of bonus attacks is not necessary to make this class perform, and carrying a physical weapon is not a real cost. (And I realize that the spell implies one-handed, but I prefer to make that sort of thing explicit). Checkmate: See Skilled Hands. Bonus Action is only a major cost with a reliable source of bonus attacks, which I don't think this class needs. Even then, the potential damage from an allied attack is far more than the 9.5 average damage of a Skilled-Sacred-Weapon-Hand attack (see: rogue, paladin, sharpshooter). I can't think of a simple way to balance this without leaving it way too good or a little bit weak. My favorite solution is the bonus action + half damage on cantrip idea, but that is still a little below the average maneuver power level (much like Commander's Strike, fittingly enough).

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 22:34:09 +0000 UTC

My DM's response to Check: Check: Since you're forcing the creature to use its legs and move (rather than pushing them or throwing them around), Dissonant Whispers and Command are the two comparisons you can make with official effects. Dissonant Whispers requires the target to use a reaction to move (and thus trigger opportunity attacks, which you would expect since it's literally walking away), while Command takes effect on the target's turn when it uses its action. I can't think of any official effects that force a target to move itself without spending any of its own actions/reactions/etc. The current implementation is strange both because it doesn't trigger opportunity attacks (which simply walking away intuitively feels like it should) and because you're giving the target a burst of speed with your command (if twelve Warmages use Check on a guy with 30 speed, he gets to walk an extra 90 ft during the round). Both issues would feel absolutely fine if you're just throwing them around with force pushes, as opposed to telling them to walk away.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 22:27:23 +0000 UTC

Now look at the secondary effect of your blade spells (I'm ignoring the spellcasting modifier to damage at this point, since that should be removed from all of them): Acidic Blade always causes potential extra damage to the primary target, which is clearly much easier to trigger than either of the SCAG cantrips. It grants a save, which is a point in its favor, but even accounting for that, the secondary damage is going to happen way more often than either SCAG cantrip. And having the extra damage happen on start of turn makes it more or less the same as immediate damage, since it's not like the target can get an extra turn if the secondary damage puts it over the top (compared to if the damage happens on its end of turn or on the start of your next turn). Glacial Blade will pretty much always happen every turn at little cost unless you're fighting low HP mooks or your party is not working together well. This one is going to happen even more often than Acidic Blade, due to the latter's save. The damage type is bad, but even with that in mind, this is too easy to trigger, or does too much damage, or both. Molten Blade is actually pretty well balanced (assuming the spellcasting modifier is taken out). Most of the time, the target can just move out of the space, so this isn't going to happen often, but it adds a little extra to the spell, much like Booming Blade. Storming Blade is mostly just better than Green-Flame Blade. 1d8 is better than +spellcasting modifier until fairly high level (8th level at the earliest with point buy), and comes without investment (meaning you don't actually care about your spellcasting stat, which is a potential cost for Green-Flame Blade). And the damage type is better. Storming Blade is not much stronger than Green-Flame Blade (again assuming the +spellcasting modifier part is taken out), but as I talked about above, even a little bit better is a problem when it comes to these cantrips. Thundering Blade is just too good, especially since thunder is the least resisted type out of the five.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 22:26:00 +0000 UTC

The secondary damage of Booming Blade is incredibly hard to trigger. Most combats involve characters moving into melee, and then staying there, so Booming Blade simply never deals that secondary damage. That is why Booming Blade starts out with 1d8 extra damage. Green-Flame Blade, on the other hand, is easier to trigger, but is still somewhat difficult. Hence its secondary damage is lower than Booming Blade's (spellcasting modifier

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 22:25:40 +0000 UTC

Ok, replies from my DM. Some of this might be rehashing what we've already discussed. Blade Cantrips: The thing to realize about Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade is that they're already pushing boundaries on how powerful cantrips can be. When you have a character that simply makes one attack a turn like rogues, clerics, and mystics (or can cast cantrips for cheap in some way, like eldritch knights), casting one of these cantrips is basically free extra damage. Because of this, any upgrade, and even many sidegrades (since you can have multiple of these cantrips and use the right one for the situation) will tip things over the edge of acceptable power. Adding your spellcasting modifier to the damage is actually a very big power boost in that sense, since you're adding +3 to +5 extra damage at little cost, so that really should be the first thing to go. [continued below because apparently there is a character limit on comments]

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 22:24:23 +0000 UTC

Absolutely love it. One thing that I'm hesitant about, though. Do you think giving both Arcane Initiation and Arcane Fighting Style (particularly Deflector) at first level would make it too tempting to take as a single level dip class? The majority of full classes in 5e don't give so much at level 1 just to avoid that (I think). I could be wrong, but I'd certainly be tempted to dip one level for a handful of good cantrips and particularly the chance to add my proficiency bonus to my AC once a round. I can see you avoided giving tricks at first level, which makes sense. I could be wrong, but it's just a point for discussion. Possibly only deflector is very tempting for dipping into because the others are so cantrip focussed (which is great).

Christopher Hartland

2016-08-01 21:03:01 +0000 UTC

Ahh... true true. Sorry

A Bear

2016-08-01 20:40:51 +0000 UTC

Hold on, let me check something: is Check intended to be an immediate effect? Or is it intended that the target use half it's movement *on their turn* to move away from you? Because in that case a reaction would not be needed.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 20:34:00 +0000 UTC

Then it's a wording issue: Thunderwave: "...is pushed 10 feet away from you." Thunderous Smite: "...be pushed 10 feet away from you and knocked prone." Pushing Attack: "...you push the target up to 15 feet away from you." Dissonant Whispers: "must use it's reaction, if available, to move as far as its speed allows away from you" Check: "...it must move up to half its speed directly away from you" Also most forced movement don't require CHA or WIS saves, which would indicate an effect on the mind, that a creature might *react* poorly to, and want to get far away from. As apposed to simply being physically shoved away.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 20:13:11 +0000 UTC

Alright, came up with three possible options. (Apart from the renaming) 1) The Boring option would be to just make it an ASI. No one dislikes those, but it's fairly bland. 2) You could use, but rename the Great Old One Warlock's entropic ward. It fits pretty well with the Warmage and it would give them mild relief from their glass cannonness. 3) You could use the Evoker's Potent Cantrip (Cantrips inflict half damage even on a save, but don't apply effects.) That one might fit best, but I haven't thought through all the angles so there might be something OP that I'm missing.

Altanius

2016-08-01 19:57:54 +0000 UTC

Thematically, calling it Aura of Protection seems like a cop out, but it would fix all our problems, and keep a feature we all like. It definitely seems like a better fit for a King than the Warmage as a whole. Swapping it out with the 7th level King feature could work, but we'd have to find a replacement for the 6th level feature. Maybe put the 6th level feature back to an Ability Score improvement, and move the Warmage Tactics over to the House of Kings as the 7th level feature (and rename it as Aura of Protection to avoid stacking conflicts)? Then again, I'm currently building a Kings Warmage that isn't a front lines fighter, so I might be biased against "Leading from the front"...

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 19:53:37 +0000 UTC

No, I read you. I just meant I thought it fits for some of the subclasses. Certainly the class as a whole doesn't fit it, but it's not terribly out of place in the king. The best solution then might be to go back to the drawing board and find something that fits the class better.

Altanius

2016-08-01 19:39:57 +0000 UTC

Auras really /aren't/ the warmge's thing (I think you misread me above) and I've always thought this feature felt a little weird. Auras work fine in the paladin class -- everything about the paladin was about protecting your allies -- but the focus of the warmage is being a tactical glass cannon with cantrips, and I don't know if this fits. The easiest solution would be to change the name of Warblade Tactics to Aura of Protection, but I really do think it hurts the theme of the class.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 19:37:22 +0000 UTC

Dissonant Whispers is a fear effect. Finger is correct, most forced movement (Thunderwave, Repulsing Blast, etc) don't involve a reaction. Dissonant Whispers is the exception, not the rule.

Altanius

2016-08-01 19:29:37 +0000 UTC

Part of the thing is it's hard. The aura makes perfect sense for the King, but a lot less sense for the rook. Using Int instead of their ability score honestly doesn't seem like a solution to me. Applying it to themselves might be ok, but it would still stack with the pally, and you could still wind up with some crazy high saves. Hmm... I'm not sure how to adapt this. Ok, two ideas. 1) You could just rename it to the Aura of Protection. Since it has the same name, they wouldn't stack, and the name fits fine in the Warmage. 2) I realize it's a level off, but you could give them something along the lines of the Aura of Warding (Resistance to Spell Damage.) It would be appropriate, and resistance doesn't stack so you wouldn't have to worry about it. That's just if you're fixated on Auras. Otherwise, there might be whole other abilities you could use.

Altanius

2016-08-01 19:16:48 +0000 UTC

Mhm, the Arachnoid Stalker rogue. I've been working on a redux since basically the moment it came out, because I realized that it really needed a maneuver system to fulfill that Spiderman thing.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 19:15:11 +0000 UTC

You use your reaction with Dissonant Whispers, is that not against your will? And movement is very different from a throw, a creature with a speed of 10 would only move 5 feet with Check, but a 10 foot throw would move any creature 10 feet.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 19:13:18 +0000 UTC

There's a spiderman class!?! 80

Altanius

2016-08-01 19:12:29 +0000 UTC

Ah, yes. Storming Blade has the advantage of no save. You could also have it chain to more targets at higher levels. Otherwise, it might be best to reduce the damage of Thundering Blade. Edit: Sorry about the multi-post. Was having internet issues.

Altanius

2016-08-01 19:10:48 +0000 UTC

I understand that -- I'm just not a huge fan of pointing out specific features and citing that they don't overlap. It's a little too specific and doesn't rule out other potentially harmful interactions that might not even be published yet. Regardless, I think there's a philosophical discussion to be had here. I think that Warmage Tactics is balanced, certainly, but that it doesn't really complement the warmage as a class, since protecting his allies with auras isn't really his thing. Thematically, it might work better if he was the only one that gained the benefit, or if his allies only benefited from using his intelligence, rather than their own skills. I'm heading to work, and I'll stew on this while I'm there. Let the discussion go on in my absence!

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 19:10:20 +0000 UTC

That's what we're saying. They're different effects, and we like the way it is (+int mod on all saves) but you should add something to the effect of: 'A creature can only benefit from this, or a Paladin's Aura of Protection at one time, not both.'

Altanius

2016-08-01 18:54:06 +0000 UTC

I'll fix the description to say it 'appears about you like a shield', rather than, 'you wield it like a shield.'

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 18:48:54 +0000 UTC

Crap, I need to finish that spiderman subclass redux! Thanks for reminding me!

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 18:44:23 +0000 UTC

I think it's just the wording of the description that's confusing to me. It's stating that you wield it like a shield, but that you don't get the AC bonus if you are wielding a shield. I'm not sure how you could reword it though... Maybe that you can perform somatic components in the same hand that is "wielding" the buckler?

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 18:38:53 +0000 UTC

Or with... Feats are expensive ;)

Altanius

2016-08-01 18:36:01 +0000 UTC

Well, that or the Warcaster feat. This was intended to help keep warmages competitive in games that don't use feats.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-01 18:33:25 +0000 UTC

Thank you! It still has some work and editing to do, but I'd say it's very near to being perfect.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-01 18:31:32 +0000 UTC

Also to answer a previous comment: you are intended to be able to add your Warmage edge damage to each attack from Select Fire, but the way that ability works prevents you from making mutiple damage rolls on the same target. The benefit of Magic Daggers is that you can get mutiple instances of Warmage Edge on a single target (similar to Eldritch Blast), which is why the damage die is lower. To clarify, a warmage with fire bolt and Select Fire can deal 4d10+5 damage to one target (avg 27), or 1d10+5 to 4 targets (of somewhere in between, depending on how you split it). A warmage with Magic Daggers can do 4d6+20 (avg 34), or 1d6+5 to 4 targets. The tradeoff for the larger damage is having to make multiple attacks.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-01 18:30:33 +0000 UTC

That's my point. It's fine for those backline blaster characters. But if you want to be a frontline sword and board fighter, the Force Buckler spell is a necessity.

Altanius

2016-08-01 18:29:35 +0000 UTC

Specialized spell requirements aside, there isn't a difference between those two abilities. In fact, if the wizard took Eldritch blast as a cantrip (via the Arcane Initiate feat) it would be exactly the same, save for the different ability scores. Both would add the ability score mod to every damage roll, just as Warmage Edge does.

Altanius

2016-08-01 18:27:59 +0000 UTC

Problem being, these are /different/ effects, with different names, and would stack unless I specified that they didn't. Lemme try a different draft and see how this goes.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 18:22:28 +0000 UTC

Matt, my Warmage (King) was carrying a shield and only a shield, leaving a free hand to throw melee and ranged cantrips. Obviously if I was also holding a weapon, I would not have been casting spells.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 18:22:08 +0000 UTC

This class uses cantrips as the primary damage source. All cantrips get a boost in damage or an extra hit at 11th level as a rule, which will inherently increase their combat abilities.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-01 18:18:37 +0000 UTC

Just gotta say that I absolutely love the rework of the class. Warmage seems more complete now.

Greymire

2016-08-01 18:18:01 +0000 UTC

Hmm...I'll see how I can do a rewrite on this to make it flow a bit better. The inherent difference here is supposed to be the same as the difference between the Evoker's bonus damage ability and the Warlock's agonizing blast, but the way I've written it, that difference isn't there. We should just probably replace that trick with something else entirely.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-01 18:16:54 +0000 UTC

So, if you look at the old version, this cantrip is a conversion of the Trick Knights Ward. The concept specifically was "have a shield, can still cast spells" without having to get into the mess of trying to copy parts of feats. In this case, I DO think adding the line "The spell ends immediately if you no longer have a free hand" negating the ability to do things like swing with a great sword (which is certainly NOT the intention).

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-01 18:09:03 +0000 UTC

Totally kills my dream of being spider-man :P

Altanius

2016-08-01 18:07:02 +0000 UTC

At 11th level classes jump up into the 3rd tier of play, and each class gets an ability that increases their combat abilities. Fighters get their 3rd attack, paladin's get Improved divine smite. Find steed doesn't seem like much of a power increases, or am I missing something?

A Bear

2016-08-01 17:59:21 +0000 UTC

I'm not sure what's intended there either. By RAW each hit with the spell would apply the Warmage edge, which means that power is useless ATM.

Altanius

2016-08-01 17:52:31 +0000 UTC

The force buckler isn't as good as a normal shield at higher levels since it can't be enchanted. I'm not sure how you specced your warmage, but if you're fighting in melee, you shouldn't have been able to use a shield (unless you took warcaster) because all the cantrips have a somatic component, which requires you to have a free hand. If you're playing a bishop and blasting from behind the lines, you're fine, but if you're playing a knight and want to use a shield, you'd have to choose between the shield and spellcasting. Force buckler lets you ignore this, since it doesn't technically occupy a hand.

Altanius

2016-08-01 17:48:07 +0000 UTC

Ohhhhh... they removed Action Surge. I hadn't even noticed that. Ok, Master Warmage is a little more useful now that I'm not casting 2 cantrips once per short rest.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 17:39:31 +0000 UTC

To be honest, I hadn't even read Master Warmage, I so rarely ever get to 20th level with my characters. ... That's actually a really terrible capstone. There are so many features that use a bonus action for the Warmage, that spending a bonus action to cast an extra cantrip is probably the least useful thing you could do in a round. And then adding a limited pool on top makes it even weaker. I guess magic daggers and mystical blade need to be clarified as to not deal warmage edge damage on hit? The problem is that Mystical Weaponmaster states a specific rule that is intended to override a general rule (the spell description), but that general rule doesn't exist.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 17:34:59 +0000 UTC

Yeah, but that would make select fire weaker, and the ability to cast two cantrips at level 20 (Still not my favorite capstone unfortunately) also would suffer

Grimeagle

2016-08-01 17:23:22 +0000 UTC

Yeah that is confusing. Normally stat bonuses are applied only once per attack (or in this case, once per spell casting). But we have cantrips that can do multiple attacks per single casting of the spell. Perhaps if Warmage Edge was reworded to say that you could apply the INT mod to damage once per turn to a Warmage Cantrip? That would make Mystical Weaponmaster make more sense to take, since it's adding additional damage to each of the attacks. And that would keep you from adding the Warmage Edge to the extra attacks from Select Fire. And the 'once per turn' part has already been clarified (as with sneak attack) to mean that you also add it to reaction attacks out of your turn.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 17:21:27 +0000 UTC

Just wondering, why doesn't arcane blade or magic daggers inherently get the warmage edge added? And just so I don't misunderstand: If a spell already gets a stat to damage, i can't add warmage edge to it?

Grimeagle

2016-08-01 17:08:56 +0000 UTC

Additional comment from me: Arcane Riposte does not add the Mastery Die to the cantrip damage (unlike the Battle Maneuver), was this intentional?

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 17:08:23 +0000 UTC

Some comments from my DM: Kings Maneuvers: Check: Forcing an enemy to move without spending a reaction is just weird and unintuitive. Queen's Gambit: This is borderline overpowered. The problem is that it makes it too easy to guarantee a reaction spell each turn, which essentially doubles your damage per round. Spells: Force Dart: Cantrips tend to avoid having powerful status effects, since they're used at will. The closest cantrip to granting a status effect is Vicious Mockery, and that has a worse damage type and a worse status effect. I would change this cantrip's damage die to d4, or take out the possibility of prone. Various 'Blade' Spells: These are just overpowered. The saving grace of Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade when it comes to balance is that their secondary damage is situational and hard to trigger. It's incredibly easy to trigger the secondary damage of these, and they deal more damage to boot.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 17:02:44 +0000 UTC

Darn, ;) So I wouldn't be able to use select fire to make 4 attacks dealing 1d6 force damage with a 20 foot pull at 5th level? That seems fair.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 16:41:53 +0000 UTC

That was my concern as well, because the concept of a 'Buckler' as it appeared in 3.5, does not exist in 5th edition. And if one were attempt to reintroduce such a concept, it certainly shouldn't have the same AC bonus as a normal shield, because it would render it obsolete. As far as a Warmage with a shield, I played a 3rd level Warmage on Sunday (using the old rules), and happily blasted enemies left and right while holding my shield in the other hand. Having a Force Buckler just means I don't have to lug around a shield out of combat (and lets me use my lance when I want to).

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 16:30:50 +0000 UTC

Yes. It's generally a utility cantrip, not a damaging cantrip.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-01 16:17:49 +0000 UTC

He hasn't. It explicitly requires a hand free for the effects to apply (Which prevents two-weapon fighting or two-handed weapons) but still technically leaves a hand free for spellcasting. Essentially he's created something that allows the Warmage to use a shield w/o losing the ability to spellcaster (and without needing the warcaster feat.) Edit: Actually, on rethinking it, you might want to specify the spell ends if you don't have a free hand. Otherwise, someone could Swing a two-handed weapon on their turn, let go with one hand at the end of their turn and repeat for success.

Altanius

2016-08-01 15:09:02 +0000 UTC

Aha! It's in the DMG Errata. If you're affected by multiple effects of the same name, only the most powerful applies. <a href="http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/DMG-Errata.pdf." rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/DMG-Errata.pdf.</a> I agree with Andrew, I'd go back to the identical effect as the paladin, but with some sort of language to stop it stacking with the paladin.

Altanius

2016-08-01 13:42:30 +0000 UTC

It's not really clear in the description. You are wielding the force buckler as a shield, but you only gain the +2AC if you have a hand free and not wielding a shield. So am I not wielding the force buckler as a shield then? If I'm not wielding the Force Buckler, and it's a +2 to my AC, then you've just created a cantrip that replicates a Very Rare magical item feature (Animated Shield). I would recommend that you have to actually hold the force buckler, and that you only needed a hand free when you cast it.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 11:15:34 +0000 UTC

<a href="http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/18/does-paladins-aura-of-protection-stack/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/18/does-paladins-aura-of-protection-stack/</a> Identical effects don't stack. So as it was written originally, Warmage Tactics would stack with Aura of Protection. As it is written currently (use INT mod instead of saving throw), it is very inferior to Aura of Protection. I would say put something in there that the creature can choose which bonus to use, the Paladin's Charisma, or the Warmage's Intelligence.

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 11:12:41 +0000 UTC

Is it intentional that the Phantom Hookshot feature not pump up in damage like other cantrips? (at 5th, 11th, and 17th level)

Andrew Bahls

2016-08-01 11:05:51 +0000 UTC

Yeah, I'm in love with the current iteration of the Knight

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 07:33:10 +0000 UTC

I actually like that better than extra attack :)

Altanius

2016-08-01 07:28:37 +0000 UTC

Oh, good question. No, using somatic components for spells does not count as having something in your hand, nor does force buckler count as having something in your hand -- everything works just fine.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 07:05:56 +0000 UTC

i meant for the part of spells that requires the use of hands, somatic components.

Grimeagle

2016-08-01 07:01:47 +0000 UTC

That doesn't sound correct at all! I'm sure there's a general rule about not adding any one bonus twice, or just adding the highest one, or something like that. I wonder if this is covered in Sage Advice... (And if I turn out to be wrong on this, I'll switch the feature back right away.)

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 06:58:34 +0000 UTC

AFAIK, if you have two paladins in the party, you get to add each of their Charisma bonuses to your saves, so it stacking shouldn't really be a problem.

Jaron Mortimer

2016-08-01 06:56:11 +0000 UTC

The stacking thing will totally be a problem. I'll switch it for now, rather than mess with clarifying how it would stack (after all, I would need to figure out how to make it not interact with other types of bonuses, but still allow for things like advantage, and not take a paragraph to explain it.)

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 06:09:06 +0000 UTC

Nice catch! It's similar to extra attack. You'll see in a minute -- I'm fixing it right now.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 06:02:29 +0000 UTC

Yup. It's not concentration-based, so there's no spellcasting restrictions.

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 05:55:11 +0000 UTC

Also, can you still caste spells with the magic buckler spell active?

Grimeagle

2016-08-01 05:46:51 +0000 UTC

Given you took it straight from the Paladin, save for the different ability score, you should be fine. I'd specify they don't stack though, just in case.

Altanius

2016-08-01 05:44:28 +0000 UTC

House of the knight is missing it's 7th level feature (extra attack, I'm assuming.) I'd also recommend it be a bonus action to summon a weapon from the armory, or at least their chosen weapon, rather than an action.

Altanius

2016-08-01 05:41:42 +0000 UTC

Precisely. This is very similar to the 6th level paladin ability, Aura of Protection. (I've been thinking about changing this to only saving throws against spells, or allowing you to use Int in place of another ability score, rather than as a bonus, but I wanted to run it by the crowd and the Palm first.)

Mage Hand Press

2016-08-01 05:35:01 +0000 UTC

"Starting at 6th level, whenever you or a friendly creature within 10 feet of you must make a saving throw, the creature gains a bonus to the saving throw equal to your Intelligence modifier (with a minimum bonus of +1). You must be conscious to grant this bonus." Does that mean Warmages get their int to all their saves?

Grimeagle

2016-08-01 05:31:53 +0000 UTC

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