UNCUT - I, Borg (TNG S5E23) | Star Trek Journey 230
Added 2025-02-23 17:28:55 +0000 UTCDOUBLE UPLOAD!
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Next tiime on Staaaar Trek Thenextgeneration: Picard wants to kill the Borg and gets imprisoned on an alien moon. Meanwhile Data's protégé is engaged in a subversive to keep the war going. What happens next? Find out, next time on Staaaar Trek... Thenextgeneration.
Kristopher
2025-03-16 22:26:42 +0000 UTCVery high A from me, close to S, but not quite
jon bolton
2025-03-15 02:54:00 +0000 UTCalways hated this one. reminds me of how sappy the Fed is..."quote from a bar scene in DS9 over root beer"
Christopher Bartow
2025-03-14 01:24:53 +0000 UTCGeordi's best episode
Josef Nitervol
2025-03-09 17:08:56 +0000 UTCWe are internet. We approve. This episode will continue to be assimilated. S+
temsik28
2025-03-09 04:26:16 +0000 UTCPicard is always the voice of reason... it's amazing to see the one issue (the Borg) that he ends up being unreasonable about. And it's completely believable and understandable that he does have these issues.
Max Yoder
2025-03-08 06:05:30 +0000 UTCThe borg are more intimidating when faceless drones. This episode changes that. Not a fan.
Michael Metrick
2025-03-03 20:39:13 +0000 UTCDel Arco later revealed he based Hugh’s personality on his boyfriend, who died from AIDS prior to filming. At its advanced stages, AIDS often caused severe dementia and learning difficulties. Del Arco ‘found the character’ through remembering his boyfriend returning to a child-like curios state where things had to be repeated and simplified. It was an inestimably painful thing to do but he thought it best for the character and also a way to honour and memorialise his boyfriend. I’m pretty sure as a 10 year old, seeing Hugh in all that rubber helped turn me gay, so it was mind blowing to get into my 30s and find out he was gay and the character was based on a dying gay man. It gives me a heavy heart to see him playing Hugh again. I’d still bang him more than Stevie Wonder’s big toe wearing that costume though.
Smear Campaign
2025-03-02 17:23:49 +0000 UTCWatch the remake R Moore did on BSG when almost the exact same situation pops up. There was no whitewashing and deleting counter arguments to make it sweet and sentimental.
Ken R
2025-03-01 08:56:13 +0000 UTCThis is a bit of a different situation though. In "City on the edge..." Edith had to die to restore the history that returned Kirk and company to the Enterprise, Starfleet, and The Federation. Edith's survival at the hands of Bones took away their entire history. This also resonates in "A matter of time." Even though that time traveller was a fraud, he makes a good point that would stand if he was genuinely from the future. If he influences their actions he could alter history as he knows it. With Hugh, Picard and crew, from their perspective, are writing history for the first time, not setting it straight after someone altered it. They are free from notions of how it is supposed to be. And Picard is quite right when he said that if they used Hugh in this way, they would be morally no better than the Borg. Geordie said himself he would rather die than be assimilated, and Picard said something similar to the Borg in BOTW Part 1. If they had used Hugh to commit genocide, how could they not justify using genocide next time they face an existential threat?
Sherpa Jones
2025-03-01 04:00:53 +0000 UTCAre you sure that solar radiation hasn't swept it away by now?
Sherpa Jones
2025-03-01 03:53:37 +0000 UTCThis episode deserved better than the standard season 5 sonic wallpaper.
Lwaxana’s Poolboy
2025-02-28 02:56:18 +0000 UTCInner Light waiting room
Dabo Master
2025-02-27 07:31:05 +0000 UTCWhich is why I'm not a pragmatist. You can justify some true horrors via "what must be done". I don't care what the odds are, not going to turn into a monster in order to save myself or anyone else. Your hypothetical doesn't relate to the situation at hand, if someone is pointing a gun at me I am perfectly happy to defend myself against that aggressor. That has no relation to using an innocent individual as a carrier for mass genocide. Surprised that's an unpopular view among Star Trek fans.
Paul
2025-02-26 22:42:22 +0000 UTCWriters were able to do more callbacks by this time because home video had entered the picture. They knew fans were taping the episodes and watching them over and over, which they couldn’t have done in the Sixties. You either saw the episode or you missed your chance.
James H
2025-02-26 20:31:45 +0000 UTC😔 How true
Mordock_Vapelord
2025-02-26 19:25:03 +0000 UTCOh god how did she do with THAT one?
Phil Ken Sebben
2025-02-26 11:03:32 +0000 UTCAt the end. The opportunity to end the borg should have been seized.
Phil Ken Sebben
2025-02-26 10:25:50 +0000 UTCthey do grow them but they also assimilate
paultardspambot .
2025-02-26 08:21:30 +0000 UTCLol why are so hostile to that lady. She's not the best reactor out there for sure but shes not the worst. She is however one of a few people REACTING to TNG on youtube and even one of the fewer reacting to DS9. As someone that likes to binge watch stuff, TA's 2 episodes of TNG a week just makes me want more so I add her Trek reactions in to help my craving a little. For reacting to other things like movies my favorite reactors are J from EOM reacts, Ashleigh Burton, and Popcorn in Bed, my top 3 at least.
Sequiro
2025-02-26 04:16:49 +0000 UTCActually, fun story, our moon does have an atmosphere, it's incredibly thin, and you'd definitely not want to breathe it, but it's there. It's made up primarily of the rocket exhaust fumes of the various missions that have visited the surface, a small amount stuck around.
FPG
2025-02-25 21:40:24 +0000 UTCThis is why I feel TOS will always be a better written show. There Kirk wanted to save someone in Edith or Gary, but the show didn't shy away from what happens if you do. This show, clearly written for kids, can't have any of that because it can't be packaged in saccharin sentiment, so it just jettisons all logic in favor of "awww". In some video the other day J&A were saying how TOS is just stories of the week but TNG is so deep, and I'm like "I must be losing my mind; this show is intentionally as undeep as it gets" and this episode is a great example.
Ken R
2025-02-25 20:20:37 +0000 UTCThis is probably the best review I’ve seen from you guys. Several things you said, especially Alex, made me smile and enjoy your experience with seeing this for the first time and knowing what awaits further down the road.
Ron Hubbard Jr
2025-02-25 18:00:54 +0000 UTC@Joe Concepts I think everyone needs to really think more about what assimilation into the Borg is. It's not about the "established rules"... it's about the profound implications of what becoming a Borg drone truly means. Assimilation is the removal of personal identity and individuality. It's the removal of what we would today call humanity. Assimilation has nothing to do with the hive mind or collective itself. It's the processing of the "raw material" for integration into the collective whole. You don't just put raw sugar cane into your cake... first you have to refine the sugar cane to get a product that you can use in your cake. Assimilation is not something that would just fall away. The nature of the being has been utterly destroyed and completely changed forever. Just as that sugar in your cake will never be raw sugar cane ever again.
Jovet
2025-02-25 13:58:39 +0000 UTCSacrificing your own life for compassion others is not the same thing as sacrificing billions of others' lives for compassion of one. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the Hugh.
Jovet
2025-02-25 13:49:06 +0000 UTCI almost can't wait until we get there, too.
Jovet
2025-02-25 13:47:47 +0000 UTCExactly right.
Jovet
2025-02-25 13:47:02 +0000 UTCThis was sweet in a very shallow way. He is basically a puppy, and I'm sure all the kids watching this at the time found it thought provoking and deep, but the show doesn't address the other side of the equation: how many millions must now die at the hands of the Borg because the story needed these characters to make no sense? There really wasn't a question about what they should have done, and they didn't do it, but we did get to go "awww" when he turned to look at Geordi just as he beamed away. Watchable, but typical TNG peddling of superficial sentiment. I wonder how "City On The Edge.." and " Where No Man Has Gone..." would have ended if Spock had given the advice from the point of view this episode took?
Ken R
2025-02-25 12:10:29 +0000 UTCOverthinking it a bit. This is a pretty clear cut kill or be killed sort of situation. I get the desire to pose it as a question of determinism...but I don't think that's the case in any sort of pragmatic sense. You work with what you've got, with what you know. You can't be frozen into inaction because you can't have or know everything. Yeah, if they wipe out the Borg, its technically possible that someone would have found some way to teleport them to another dimension or something and get rid of them that way, relatively nonviolently, and their destruction would be a moral tragedy. But really, what are the odds? And what benefit does the continued existence of the Borg create, knowing what we know about them at this point? What we've got is two soldiers pointing guns at each other. Kill or be killed. Or....sit there indecisively, failing to pull the trigger, because its technically possible peace could be declared in the next three seconds? Yeah, I respect the idea of not shooting. But I'm *definitely* shooting.
Aaron Wells
2025-02-25 07:31:05 +0000 UTCThis is it. This is the one. This is the best episode of TNG
TivAcrid
2025-02-25 04:17:59 +0000 UTCI don't think one species inherently has more value than another. In fact, thinking that way is antithetical to the Federation's core tenet of unification. Now don't get me wrong, if the Borg attack, people / Starfleet has every right to defend itself. But there's a difference between fighting the Borg head on and using one of its recovered members to infiltrate and infect the entire collective. Especially against its own individual will. As Hugh clearly demonstrates, no individual Borg member is too far gone to save.
Paul
2025-02-25 00:44:36 +0000 UTCRene Escheverra contributes quite a bit in the future
Scarpad’s Domain
2025-02-24 21:58:15 +0000 UTCAh Hugh, you deseved better my friend
Scarpad’s Domain
2025-02-24 21:57:19 +0000 UTCDefending one's own species from genocide... and all the other's in the galaxy... isn't turning into the monster you're destroying. It's self defense.
Tom Occhipinti
2025-02-24 20:15:57 +0000 UTCAsk Janeway
Fishing Trip
2025-02-24 19:16:34 +0000 UTCI'd rather die fighting and losing but knowing I didn't turn into a monster to survive.
Paul
2025-02-24 19:14:36 +0000 UTCI should have added: "We both can agree that harming another innocent sentient being against its will is wrong" By your logic, Picard should have been arrested after being rescued, because he's guilty of his actions as Locutus? Through him, thousands of lives were lost. That's not a compelling argument to me at all. When you're taken over by the Borg, the collective's will overwhelms your own, even someone as fiercely strong as Picard could not resist, and we saw the ramifications of that terror in "Family" way back. Hugh isn't guilty of anything besides being in the wrong place at the wrong time and using him as an unwitting carrier of mass genocide would be an ungodly act.
Paul
2025-02-24 19:13:52 +0000 UTCI've never questioned Riker's decision in Best of Both Worlds. It was logical and necessary. Everyone knows Picard would have been willing to die to save the Federation. They destroyed the one currently attacking vessel that was actively trying to destroy them, so it's not the same as killing ALL Borg. And it could have very easily been the only possible chance they had to defeat them.
Joe Concepts
2025-02-24 18:12:20 +0000 UTCThis is one of those great examples of a discussion that really begs for some future "spoiler" comments!
Joe Concepts
2025-02-24 17:01:53 +0000 UTCI think they may have leaned heavily on Beverly's opinion and attitude, thinking that many people, like Alex did, will roll their eyes and think she's going too far with it. But it at least goes along with her character acting that way, compassionate almost to a fault. Like when she insisted on staying on that planet and got taken by the terrorists.
Joe Concepts
2025-02-24 17:00:54 +0000 UTCWe have only seen full-power, hive minded Borg connected to the collective. Since it's the first time we saw one separated I don't think it really breaks established rules.
Joe Concepts
2025-02-24 16:56:10 +0000 UTCI've always felt that the Borg were somewhat arrogant and didn't believe that anyone could achieve what the Enterprise did with Hugh. That a drone gaining their individuality just wasn't possible. "Resistance is Futile"
Katie Jackson
2025-02-24 16:03:17 +0000 UTCDouble upload hype! And for one of my favorite episodes
Deep Red
2025-02-24 16:01:13 +0000 UTCWould the writers have had Beverly behave differently in this episode if Wesley had previously been assimilated by the Borg?
Jovet
2025-02-24 15:23:08 +0000 UTC@Timothy Nikiforovs Yeah, I'll have response to your statement later down the road.
Jovet
2025-02-24 15:18:39 +0000 UTCI understand where you're coming from. But I don't agree that the Borg would survive and evolve as a "species" so long if that's how flippant their drones were.
Jovet
2025-02-24 15:16:46 +0000 UTC@Philbot That's the aspect of the episode I found the most fascinating: would it even have worked? We'll never know. I would have much preferred an episode where they tried and then later found out it didn't work after all.
Jovet
2025-02-24 15:14:56 +0000 UTC@Philbot I always assumed the babies we saw were assimilated babies.
Jovet
2025-02-24 15:10:00 +0000 UTCHow sure are we even the Virus plan would be wildly successful?
Philbot
2025-02-24 13:35:01 +0000 UTCEven in their conquest of the galaxy they seem less than successful.
Philbot
2025-02-24 13:32:57 +0000 UTCThey already turned into the “You will be Assimilated” skid which wasn’t what the Borg were originally.. They even remark on their interest in Picard in Best of both worlds. Maybe they decided assimilation was scarier? More like zombies than just strip mining your technology..It seems like if they could “grow” clone drones it would be more efficient than grabbing up people.. They wouldn’t need that many “Boots on the ground” but breeding babies like in Q who would seem less efficient than cloning grown adult drones.
Philbot
2025-02-24 13:31:42 +0000 UTC"We both can agree that harming another sentient being against its will is wrong." That's not an absolute rule. Harming or killing an enemy combatant in an armed conflict isn't wrong, it's legal and even morally justifiable. Hugh isn't a civilian, there are no borg civilians, they are all combatants, so every single one of them is valid as a target and killing them all should not be considered genocide. I agree that actively harming Hugh in this episode for revenge would have been wrong but attaching a virus that destroys the entire collective would have been fine, that's not different than giving an enemy soldier wrong information that will lure an entire army into a deadly trap. "We can't go around harming innocent people because of our own fear of that unknown. " I'd argue that Hugh isn't innocent, as part of the collective he's guilty of everything they did, if we view individual drones as innocent how do we fight the borg at all?
Phillip Grischa
2025-02-24 11:11:21 +0000 UTCYeah, Guinan and her race need a bit of suspension of disbelief and convenient retconning considering what she was early versus how she is used later. She is what she is needed to be, and leave it be because that gives us Guinan scenes.
#MaxwellDidNothingWrong
2025-02-24 09:04:13 +0000 UTCYou're right, but Trek is narrative. And story telling narrative is about exploring the human condition through setting up a premise and asking in what ways is it true? Trek is about exploring virtuous idealism. Think of it this way: In Blade Runner the question is posed that you come across a tortoise in the desert and you flip it on your back, WHY did you do that? In Trek, the question is: You come across a tough choice and you choose idealism despite its seeming error. WHY was that correct? Trek explores the premise that virtue trumps reality. That might not actually be true irl, but the point of Trek is not to explore truth, but explore the boundaries of 'the best' humanity has to offer. That's the real goal here: Not making the pragmatic choices or mapping nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence.
#MaxwellDidNothingWrong
2025-02-24 09:02:41 +0000 UTCExcellent performance from Jonathan Del Arco. Wonderful episode. Fun bit of trivia totally outside of debate club: Jonathan Del Arco was one of the top contenders to play Wesley Crusher.
Avaria
2025-02-24 09:00:21 +0000 UTCWhat was unique about the Borg as an adversary was that they were more like a force of nature than a species. You can't negotiate with a tornado, or appeal to an wildfire. You HAVE to flee, and if given a chance you'd drop water from C-130s to put the fire out without a second thought. That's the premise that makes this episode possible. Because this episode does not work without Picard being 100% right in the beginning. This episode could only happen with the Borg. The revelation that the hurricane can be reasoned with and will even empathize with you if you separate a bit of the wind from the larger storm is top tier Sci-Fi. But you can't go home again. You can't ever have the Borg as the storm after this. That uniqueness as an adversary is shattered, because in the back of your mind you'll always consider that if you can just separate them from the collective, they are each individuals 'just like us'. Which is a shame, because NOT being 'just like us' is such a rare thing to play around with.
#MaxwellDidNothingWrong
2025-02-24 08:48:40 +0000 UTCJust remember, when the Borg show up in your star system, I was the one advocating for your planet, and you were the one advocating for Hugh. Ironically, even Hugh agrees with me.
Tom Occhipinti
2025-02-24 07:59:36 +0000 UTCDrones don't use pain killers when they cut you arm off.
Fishing Trip
2025-02-24 07:20:51 +0000 UTCI disagree, because you're framing the situation in linear deterministic morality. We both can agree that harming another sentient being against its will is wrong. Now, does that moral equation change just because some good might be produced from harming them? If we lived in a universe where torturing Tom Occhipinti resulted in the elimination of world hunger, would it be moral to follow through? In a consequentialist sense, sure, but consequentialism can justify some truly dark, evil polices and choices (slavery for one). But pivoting back to linear determinism, who's to say what happens next, if they don't introduce the virus through Hugh? Is the galaxy doomed to suffer the borg forever, or will resistance still mount against them in some other form? Of course, won't go into anything that happens in the future in the show, but in hypothetical terms, the characters cannot know what will happen later. If we were in their shoes, we couldn't either. We can't go around harming innocent people because of our own fear of that unknown.
Paul
2025-02-24 04:25:05 +0000 UTCAnd Picard flips to accept Hugh as individual when he is alone with Hugh. Picard will do the right thing even when no other Star Fleet are present. Picard truly has integrity.
James Baloun
2025-02-24 04:07:59 +0000 UTC"The episode we haven't got to..." Oh yeah Alex, I think we know which one you're talking about 😎 But yes, I, Borg is a fantastic episode because it can take an enemy as singular and absolute as the Borg and, at least for one individual of it, humanize him to the extent that you question your own humanity at your initial reaction of agreeing with Picard, wipe them all out with no hesitation (I reacted the same way on my first watch).
Paul
2025-02-24 04:05:55 +0000 UTCYes, the moral dilemma was the life of Hugh vs the life of everyone else who'll die in the future (if the Borg show up again). I made the point more complicated with the idea that their plan may not have worked. My comment muddies the discussion and is best forgotten. :(
startrekiborg
2025-02-24 03:54:45 +0000 UTCPicard "I can't believe I'm hearing this from you of all people Guinan. We go to the same Assimilated Anonymous meetings." Alex, Josh, great reaction and discussion. I think this has been the first time where you were both on the same page AND I agreed with practically all your takes. The discussion honestly felt like someone else giving voice to my own thoughts.....which was kinda weird in a way. Yes, it's an easy S tier. Even as a kid I loved this episode. Jonathan Del Arco does a great job making Hugh a very memorable character. Also there are very few episodes that can give you one GOATed scene(ready room scene in particular) after another like this one and where most of the cast get really good material to work with. I think Geordi especially did his best work here. If I could change the ending just a bit, since Geordi probably had to chill there for a good 45 minutes waiting for pickup, would have been cool to see a wide shot where he just sits down on a rock after the borg beam out and just looks up at the sky. A little aside about the soundtrack. I know Jay Chattaway isn't a Jerry Goldsmith or Ron Jones, but I think he really did some great stuff here. His unique style really worked for me in the scene where Guinan is telling Hugh what happened to her people. Also Guinan's scenes here definitely make up for the mediocrity she got in the last ep. Now, regarding the ethical dilemma of this episode, strategically, they absolutely should have gone through with it. It's kind of like the trolley problem, except the guy(the borg collective, not Hugh) you're diverting the train to run over to save a bunch of other people is terminally ill, so it's an even easier decision. To all the people objecting that it would be impossible for a borg to regain individuality, well, it's in the episode, therefore it's canon. A lot of people think "Borg Baby Hughie" diminished how terrifying the borg are but I disagree. If the borg were technozombies where their identity was completely erased and nothing remained but the collective, then there's no moral dilemma, those people are dead. But knowing those people are prisoners in their own body unable to break free is horrifying. It's like remember Picard in the vineyard, hating himself for "not being strong enough" and stopping them? Imagine someone being assimilated, and then being forced to assimilate their own family, their own children, and being completely powerless to stop it. Not even able to shed a tear over it. Now imagine that's your life for potentially centuries depending on how long drones live. It would be endless living hell. Having your entire personality wiped and being a blank slate for the borg would be a mercy by comparison. Still after enough time, like a muscle that atrophies, you'd forget HOW to be an individual, unless there was someone to guide you back. So yes, behind every drone is absolutely a victim deprived of free will, and I would love to snap my fingers and give them all their lives back, but it's not possible to save them one by one. You try and beam them off a cube and you'll have a Wolf 359 every time you try to rescue a single drone, and they'll be assimilating people faster than you can liberate them. Eventually they assimilate the whole galaxy, and re-assimilate the people you liberated and it was all for nothing. So yeah, I would absolutely have gone through with the plan. I'd feel like shit for it, I'd mourn Hugh and every other drone that never asked to be assimilated, but I'd sleep easy knowing dozens if not hundreds of species that the borg would have destroyed will now be saved. So while I agree with the reasoning of the people who dislike this episode, I still consider it one of my favourites. If I were playing a Star Trek grand strategy game(New Horizons mod for Stellaris is the best) and this option came up, it's an easy choice. But the thing is Star Trek is a TV show that explores the human condition and makes you think about these kinds of moral dilemmas, and I, Borg does that perfectly. Boiling this episode down to a strategic decision would have been boring as an episode of TV. As is we get a range of viewpoints and they're ALL understandable. Crusher leaning on compassion to the exclusion of logic makes sense for her character and for a doctor. Picard wanting to dismiss Hugh as an automaton so he doesn't get second thoughts about destroying the borg makes sense given his history. Riker being rather dispassionate about the whole thing fits with his job as XO. Geordi was pretty neutral to Hugh at first and just focused on his job, but that proximity put him in a unique position to recognize his individuality emerging, so it make sense he'd be the first after Crusher to have second thoughts. Even Guinan when she goes to talk to him probably started to realize Hugh could just as easily have been one of her own people. So yeah, stupid decision strategically speaking, but man did it make for a fantastic episode of Star Trek.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-24 03:50:30 +0000 UTCIs it naive of me to hope that cults are a purely human form of nonsense?
Nolan
2025-02-24 03:30:47 +0000 UTC@Jovet But it did happen in this episode, and the episode is canon, so therefore the ability of drones to gain or regain individuality once freed from the mind control of the collective is canon. It's not like this is a fanfic.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-24 03:01:00 +0000 UTCThe moral objection is that it would kill *Hugh* not all of the Borg
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-24 02:59:33 +0000 UTCGeordi "all that woke garbage burned up in WW3 when the nukes went off. On this ship you refer to yourself as 'I', mister"
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-24 02:56:30 +0000 UTCWe ALL needed a palate cleanser after that one
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-24 02:53:10 +0000 UTCYeah that's fair. Unless they got a ex cult member. Lol
Greg Quinn
2025-02-24 02:44:18 +0000 UTCAn example of a habitable moon in scifi is Pandora from Avatar. A moon could be as large as Earth, just depends what planet it's orbiting, and at what distance/orbital velocity.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-24 02:43:57 +0000 UTCI heard that might only be temporary. Either way I do have the first 2 seasons on DVD. Bought them to support the show back when there was talk of cancellation before Amazon took over production
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-24 02:41:00 +0000 UTCYou don't NEED to
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-24 02:38:33 +0000 UTCSorry, nope... they should've gone through with the plan. The Borg is destroying billions of billions of lives. Trillions, really. End them. Or watch everything else end. Period. Condemning the entire galaxy to save Hugh... nope. And destroying the Borg isn't genocide. They represent thousands of species that THEY are genociding. Nope... Bye, bye, Hugh..... Sorry, but you gotta go.
Tom Occhipinti
2025-02-24 02:04:15 +0000 UTC@Evan Guthrie Who has been deprogrammed? Picard was never completely reprogrammed (e.g. dehumanized). So he doesn't count. Who else?
Jovet
2025-02-24 02:02:59 +0000 UTCI always thought that the idea of Hugh changing the collective with his individuality came from him being assimilated and then becoming an individual. The Borg have assimilated many people with there individuality intact but Hugh became an individual after being assimilated. I would guess that had never happened before. It would give the assimilated Borg the experience of gaining their individuality after being assimilated instead of before. Like giving someone the experience of therapy and recovery after a serious trauma when they're still being traumatized. Just my take on it🤷♀️
Katie Jackson
2025-02-24 02:02:19 +0000 UTCThey can be deprogrammed, but we already know that, and it doesn't change the threat.
Evan Guthrie
2025-02-24 02:00:03 +0000 UTC@Nolan The notion of Borg "programing" is far beyond human technology or morality. No human being could induct any other person into a cult as deeply as the Borg do during assimilation. It's similar to not being able to hypnotize someone and convince that person to kill someone. Just isn't going to happen.
Jovet
2025-02-24 01:59:48 +0000 UTCAs I wrote elsewhere here, I don't believe Picard truly does know what it's completely truly like to be a Borg. He was a very special drone, unlike any of the others.
Jovet
2025-02-24 01:57:55 +0000 UTCThere *is* a right answer. There is no *perfect* answer.
Jovet
2025-02-24 01:56:07 +0000 UTCYea, but i could point out other examples where something was supposed to work, but the writers just ignore it. But, I understand your meaning.
startrekiborg
2025-02-24 01:20:56 +0000 UTCDoes the editing make it clearer?
startrekiborg
2025-02-24 01:17:13 +0000 UTCAs far as the episode is concerned, it would have worked. The whole moral objection to the plan was based on the idea that it will work and kill all of them.
Evan Guthrie
2025-02-24 01:14:35 +0000 UTCThank for the bonus! As always, great discussion!
T’Pynyn of Vulcan
2025-02-24 01:01:37 +0000 UTCI really hate that everyone folds so easily. Just because one Borg separated can express individuality does not change the existential threat that all Borg, bar none, pose to all other life in the galaxy. In a sense, all Borg are innocent victims of the collective worthy of a second chance, but I find it ridiculous that we only begin to sympathize with them because we see one break free of their programming. Does this mean we can no longer fire on Borg at all because they are all individuals held hostage underneath all the implants? I'm sure some species on the other side of the galaxy would really appreciate it if the Borg currently erasing their existence suddenly stopped functioning. This episode has great character moments, and I really do feel sympathy for Hugh. What this episode should have been is a classical tragedy where there is no right answer. But instead we're supposed to feel like sending Hugh back with individuality and a prayer is morally superior to ending the Borg threat once and for all (as far as the episode is concerned). My preference is obvious but I don't like that it seems like the writers want to paint this hardline view as bigoted or uncaring. Overall A- tier because it's very well done and makes you think and reconsider.
Evan Guthrie
2025-02-24 01:00:41 +0000 UTC"You did WHAT?"
Evan Guthrie
2025-02-24 00:58:42 +0000 UTCThe Borg have probably never assimilated the knowledge of being deprogrammed from the Collective cult, nor of regaining individuality, even if they have assimilated people in the past.
Nolan
2025-02-24 00:44:50 +0000 UTCLOL
Evan Guthrie
2025-02-24 00:38:33 +0000 UTCWrong at the beginning or at the end?
Evan Guthrie
2025-02-24 00:38:12 +0000 UTCIt's not about assimilating an individual, itxs about assimilating the knowledge of being deprogrammed from the Collective cult. The knowledge of discovering one's own individuality rather than being born with and having it taken for granted till you didn't have it.
Nolan
2025-02-24 00:32:42 +0000 UTCRegarding the final take you read, I realized during this watch, particularly as you discussed our characters as "deprogramming" Hugh, that Hugh was akin to a child of a cult who needed to get this psychological conditioning reversed. The way I see it is that there are the Borg, who were born and raised that way, the originals, who never had individuality, experiencing the realization of what that is for the first time as Hugh rejoins the collective - different from assimilating the knowledge of being individual as a norm. Hugh discovered his own self. Maybe many of the OG Borg never had that. But then there are the Borg who were assimilated. If Hugh is one of those then what they get from it is the deprogramming. They knew what being an individual was, but the assimilation process is probably so overwhelming, so traumatic, and so normalized for all assimilated Borg that Hugh brings that memory, that ability to be a self, back to the forefront. It's not that the Borg don't know what individuality is, they just never experienced it in this context of being Borg and discovering it for oneself.
Nolan
2025-02-24 00:23:58 +0000 UTCalso, you're making an assumption that Guinan's people have some sort of powers, as opposed to maybe just Guinan herself. At this point that is still very mysterious.
paultardspambot .
2025-02-24 00:02:56 +0000 UTCI saw this "on release" in the 90s, but only remembered the main points. Seeing the interaction between Geordie and Guinan (which I completely didn't remember) was the moment I knew you guys would give it an S
Ee'char
2025-02-24 00:02:11 +0000 UTCSo would I. In US vs Them, I choose US.
Jovet
2025-02-24 00:01:47 +0000 UTCThis isn't the Klingons or the Romulans. Picard knows what its like be a borg. They are complete slaves to the collective, and they will not stop.
paultardspambot .
2025-02-23 23:59:13 +0000 UTC@The Ninth Doctor Irrelevant. @Chris Mickelson Picard's assimilation was unique. They targeted him personally. They assimilated him slowly. Then, for whatever reason, they absorbed his knowledge but allowed him to keep some of his distinctiveness (such as having a name), perhaps to aid in his (admittedly misguidedly-written) role as liaison between man and Borg. No other Borg remembered anything about his free life, but Locutus did—he even referred to his being Picard before. How many Borg shed tears? Someone else here compared The Borg to a cult. It isn't far off the mark, but The Borg are a cult on steroids. Erasing the individuality and humanity out of a person is no small feat, and it isn't something that can just be undone. Turning a normal happy healthy person into a drone with no free will is one of the most unnatural and remarkable things imaginable. I fear there are those who don't truly appreciate the profundity of this. Drones are not allowed to think, are not allowed to feel, are not allowed to resist, and are not allowed to question anything. THIS is what made the Borg so imposing and scary, and so completely alien. It's why Q did humanity a huge favor by giving them all a heads up. And now we have a Borg drone who still has all his implants and all his programing and is Borg in every complete way (short of access to the collective) and he just falls apart and becomes human-like? I'M NOT BUYING IT! Utter frivolity. Like I said above, execution of this one is fantastic. But the concept is misguided and foolish. I had mixed feelings on this one upon first viewing, but I've had 35 years to think about it since.
Jovet
2025-02-23 23:58:07 +0000 UTC"cant believe people are saying go for it" Its not just the Federation. By not killing the Borg, you are for sure condemning billions if not trillions of lives to be assimilated. The argument is more like "we shouldn't eliminate a deadly virus". Sure, the individual Borg have the potential to be individuals if they are freed from the collective. But the idea assimilating an individual is going to change them is absurd. They've already assimilated countless individuals. In my mind, the clear ethical choice was to save the many many worlds that will surely be destroyed by the Borg then a collective of enslaved individuals who have no chance at freedom.
paultardspambot .
2025-02-23 23:57:56 +0000 UTCI think TA uploaded this bonus episode so we could skip and/or forget Imaginary Friend without feeling any Sunday-Star-Trek-TNG withdraws... Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Stevtrek
2025-02-23 23:55:45 +0000 UTCNot a big deal, but you're going to see his name a lot: It's etch-uh-vah-REE-ah.
John M.
2025-02-23 23:12:23 +0000 UTCJen Murray? She burns through literally everything at Warp speed and has not much more to say than 'Oh!' and 'Ah!'. Very skippable YouTuber whose viewer numbers I can't comprehend.
Sam Langanke
2025-02-23 22:55:53 +0000 UTCGood point
Collin Freeman
2025-02-23 22:50:42 +0000 UTCI'm not sure if anyone else has pointed this out, but the name "Hugh" gains more significance when Picard and Hugh have their confrontation. When Picard says, "You are Borg!", Hugh replies, "I am Hugh", also meaning "I am YOU, and we are the same."
Jeff
2025-02-23 22:47:49 +0000 UTCHere is the attention you so desperately crave 🫱
kevin coleman
2025-02-23 22:38:49 +0000 UTCThis one is definitely S-tier. And I also really liked the role reversal where the wise and diplomatic Guinan and Picard are the ones in the wrong, because of their prejudices about the Borg. (Not that those prejudices are unreasonable by any stretch.)
John
2025-02-23 22:35:26 +0000 UTCIn terms of the character, only a few seasons ago Picard was aghast that Kevin Uxbridge had the ability to wipe out an entire species and just decided to do so. Now its Picard's turn, so it's consistent for him to go this way.
Alan Thompson
2025-02-23 22:34:05 +0000 UTCNo ram-a-lam-a-dinger-dong scoreboard, BUT a huge issue with this episode. This is so wrong. How dare Geordi, Bev, and the whole Federation not respecting Hue's choice of pronouns. Clearly Hue wanted to go by ( we, they, them) but the morally superior Enterprise took it upon itself to "cure" Hue into being ( I, he, him) . Just another example how more civilized we are today than the 1990's OR 2300's. Well that is likely to get me many hate mail DMs or comments from people that can't relax and take a joke. Feel free.
Prof Moff
2025-02-23 22:28:56 +0000 UTCThis is one of the things Star Trek does best: gets us to challenge our usual thinking and take another look at ourselves and how we feel. I think I had a similar turnaround as Alex when this episode first aired. By the end, I was just a choked up mess. Excellent episode for sure.
Collin Freeman
2025-02-23 22:27:03 +0000 UTCAgreed
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-23 22:24:55 +0000 UTCSame time, but yes
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-23 22:24:14 +0000 UTCPicard was WRONG
Phil Ken Sebben
2025-02-23 22:22:08 +0000 UTCThen how the heck was Picard deprogrammed then? As evidenced by current to this and prior episodes, Borg programming is akin to cult brainwashing. It can run deep but never 100%. As for anyone questioning how Hugh's individuality might spread within the collective, but an assimilation of individuals cannot is simply explained by the concept of Hugh's access being behind an "assimilation firewall" as any network has firewalls. Not everything needs to be explained within an episode.
Chris Mickelson
2025-02-23 22:14:42 +0000 UTCFrickin Amazon are removing seasons 1, 2 & 3 in a few days here in the UK, I’m going to have to buy the Bluerays but I think they are dispatched from the US? The whole licensing thing is so stupid!
Worf and Riker Ride Again
2025-02-23 22:12:19 +0000 UTClol! Did you upload this one an hour after Imaginary Friend as you felt bad for us?
Worf and Riker Ride Again
2025-02-23 22:04:45 +0000 UTCListening to this discussion I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.
Ken R
2025-02-23 21:49:25 +0000 UTCSo my own head cannon. But I would think that when the Borg assimilates a new species they know they will have individuality so they likely have a protocol to deal with that and snuff it out before it can spread ..but maybe the standard for a Borg that they think has just been off the grid for a bit wouldn't be the same because the Borg wouldn't think they would have develop self identification.
Greg Quinn
2025-02-23 21:46:41 +0000 UTCLocutus/Picard was..? Plus Hugh was a juvenile, possibly assimilated recently for all we know..?
The Ninth Doctor
2025-02-23 21:38:21 +0000 UTCGroundskeeper Willie said it best about the French like Picard, "ya cheese eatin' surrender monkey".
Alan Thompson
2025-02-23 21:35:23 +0000 UTCWhen it comes to the argument over whether or not Picard should have gone ahead with packaging that virus with Hugh to possibly destroy the entire Borg collective, I can see both sides, but I ultimately side with Picard's decision. On the one hand, I understand why some focus on the immediate threat and make it a numbers game, where it comes down to the idea that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one, and therefore you 'must' sacrifice the one in order to save the many. Personally, I can't leave it at that because there are other angles to consider. For one thing, I just personally feel it's a red line that must not be crossed in regards to 'you don't kill an innocent, non-aggressive person'. Maybe that's just intuition, and you either feel that way or you don't. But I would go a little further and say that if I were one of those hypothetical lives in the 'many' category being 'saved' by this scenario, and it was someone else in Picard's shoes, I would tell Picard to not kill Hugh on my behalf. I'd rather die, and I believe that if I were willing to allow Hugh to die just to save my ass, then I wouldn't deserve to be saved under such conditions. Many would agree with me, many would disagree with me, but that's how I feel. Also, I wish they would have explored in the episode the possibility of some other kind of solution, perhaps a different virus that could disconnect all of the Borg from the hive mind without triggering a self-destruct, for one example. Allow them to get creative and see if other solutions might present themselves. I understand the idea that any lives lost post-Hugh can be at least partially blamed on Picard, however if the Borg represent trillions of individuals trapped in this technological web, and say they went on to assimilate other worlds, but then eventually the Federation managed to liberate the entire collective, then even the numbers argument would eventually side with Picard not destroying them all here, I think.
Forbidden Donut
2025-02-23 21:24:14 +0000 UTCLow Lows and High Highs is the story of S5. Flat as hell in the middle of the season.
Jon1701
2025-02-23 21:09:24 +0000 UTCI wouldn’t be watching Imaginary Friend tonight 😂
Jon1701
2025-02-23 21:07:48 +0000 UTCS fucking tier. In my top 10. Maybe top 5
Jon1701
2025-02-23 21:07:10 +0000 UTCWith a smile on her face.
Sequiro
2025-02-23 21:04:48 +0000 UTCAssimilation is everything.
Jovet
2025-02-23 20:55:10 +0000 UTCThere hasn’t been anything in previous episodes to imply Borg individual can’t be deprogrammed
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-23 20:53:21 +0000 UTC1:09:40 And that is the FLAW with the episode. The Borg character should not possess any humanity, it was taken from him. Writing him to imbibe humanity is what is wrong with the episode. Of course he has to be written like that for this "character growth" plot armor. But it's wrong, it's not what we they have previously established the Borg to be.
Jovet
2025-02-23 20:46:38 +0000 UTCI gave this episode a "C" , the "D" wasn't me!
Jovet
2025-02-23 20:41:48 +0000 UTC"Imaginary Borg" ... acting completely unlike they've been demonstrated to behave before... 🤦
Jovet
2025-02-23 20:39:00 +0000 UTCmaybe sensor adjustments. Artificial gravity on the ship, same in the buildings on planets I am sure, maybe under the ground in certain areas.
Eric Wilson
2025-02-23 20:26:27 +0000 UTCdont worry there's still plenty more great episodes in TNG to come.
penoyer79
2025-02-23 20:22:18 +0000 UTCI’m reminded of how as a teen when I first saw this episode I went on the same emotional journey as Josh and Alex here. It’s such a well-written and beautifully acted episode, especially Jonathan Del Arco as Hugh. I love that we the audience go on the same journey as the crew. So well done.
Column Meanie
2025-02-23 20:04:19 +0000 UTCThis episode's execution is excellent. The CONCEPT is flawed and awful.
Jovet
2025-02-23 20:02:30 +0000 UTCI ALMOST didn't come over to Patreon to watch because I knew it was going to be Imaginary Friend which is a double bad Star Trek Sunday since Jen Murray was also debuting a very skippable Trek episode today. Sorry, side tracked, moving on home to my point, When I clicked here and saw Iborg was double featuring I was so happy I think I made an audible noise that scared my Chihuahua lol. So I suffered through Imaginary Friend and to get IBorg. So worth it! It had to be on purpose by the people that order the episodes to bring you so low for IF to then throw IB on you. I love how it takes our two usually wisest characters Picard and Guinan on the flip side of things where they are the ones urging to use this borg to destroy an entire race of beings, understandably so, and how they both come to realize their mistake. Great episode. Now I'm even more excited for next Sunday though this puts EP25 on Sunday and its my favorite episode of all of TNG. I'm pacing already. OMG I hope they don't hate it...
Sequiro
2025-02-23 20:01:41 +0000 UTC14:55 Why didn't they send Data in with Geordi??
Jovet
2025-02-23 19:53:08 +0000 UTC9:50 But it's NOT crazy! The Borg can't be reasoned with, can't be dispatched in battle, can't be deprogrammed or given a different objective.
Jovet
2025-02-23 19:49:16 +0000 UTCSame for me. The writing was great, character evolution was on point and Jonathan Del Arco played Hugh perfectly.
Dale Williams
2025-02-23 19:46:13 +0000 UTC6:40 "The Ferengi?" LOL!!!
Jovet
2025-02-23 19:44:47 +0000 UTCBeverly is too Compassionate.
Jovet
2025-02-23 19:43:17 +0000 UTC2:00 Habitable moons (with suitable atmosphere) are non uncommon in Star Trek. You've seen them before. For a "small moon," the actors should be acting rather differently with much less gravity. Previously, the Borg did not give out individual life signs. Now they do?
Jovet
2025-02-23 19:41:35 +0000 UTCThis episode is a banger. What can you say? Whoopi Goldberg comes in kicks ass and makes more episode gold
Thicketdweller
2025-02-23 19:40:14 +0000 UTCtop 10 episode imo.... of the entire series. love this one.
penoyer79
2025-02-23 19:26:20 +0000 UTCPulaski would’ve gone along with it.
Column Meanie
2025-02-23 19:26:15 +0000 UTCJust finished episode 6 before writing this comment
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-23 19:20:43 +0000 UTCYes
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-23 19:20:22 +0000 UTCThat was fun #EuphoriaLevelMax
Adam from Germany
2025-02-23 19:07:24 +0000 UTCOkay, you can't understand it. You just don't get the objections. Here's an example: Iran has a nuclear weapon. We (ie. the USA) have VERY good intelligence that they will fire the weapon at Israel (or anyone else) very soon. We have the chance to blow up the facility and take it out, but don't, because there is one lone, innocent custodian there cleaning the bathrooms. We are now responsible for the tens of thousands of lives lost due to that bomb and all the lives lost in the war that follows. I wouldn't want to be Picard when he explains his actions (or inactions) to his superiors.
startrekiborg
2025-02-23 18:59:47 +0000 UTCHave you guys already finished watching Season 5?
The_Truth
2025-02-23 18:46:07 +0000 UTCThank god there are these highlight episodes in between some garbage ones. How is The Expanse season 2 coming along?
Mak
2025-02-23 18:40:29 +0000 UTCYea, thanks for the early release. The biggest problem is that Picard has to now take responsibility for any death the Borg may commit going forward. Yea, I might not have worked, but now we'll never know.
startrekiborg
2025-02-23 18:31:30 +0000 UTCThis episode has me feeling like that Squidward meme where he is watching everyone else have fun. It's one of those cornerstone episodes of TNG to most people and I hate the fact that I just can't get into like everyone else. I guess i'll just take the L on this one.
Spencer Loften
2025-02-23 18:17:20 +0000 UTCThanks for the upload! Been waiting for this reaction the entire season!
Sainjl
2025-02-23 17:48:11 +0000 UTCWhen I saw imaginary friend my disappointment was palpable but this has made up for it 😂
ShazD
2025-02-23 17:32:40 +0000 UTCTHANK YOU!!! This early release is amazing. Now I’m less depressed I need to watch Imaginary Friend as well lol.
Brian Moore
2025-02-23 17:31:24 +0000 UTC
