UNCUT - Cause and Effect (TNG S5E18) | Star Trek Journey 225
Added 2025-02-08 18:55:23 +0000 UTC
Comments
1992. A year where zero people in a dusty 3000 person farm town ever talked or thought about time travel, time loops, multiverses, wormholes, etc... Concepts like this were rare and completly mindblowing to 13yo brains seeing them for the first time. Best WTF cold open. A big reason I got into physics. Fav episode ever. S+
temsik28
2025-03-08 07:38:48 +0000 UTCMy interpretation of how Data knew to send the message "3" (referring to Cmdr. Riker) is that sometime (off-screen) Data continued to analyze the recording of their voices from the previous loop, and heard both Riker and himself give suggestions to Captain Picard. Logically, if Picard went with Data's suggestion (which he did) and the ship still exploded, Data would know that this was the incorrect decision. So he programmed "3" into the next loop deducing that Riker's suggestion would save the ship. I don't think he "knew" for a fact that this would be the case, but realistically it was the only other thing they could have done. Since he knew that his idea was definitely going to fail, MAYBE Riker's idea would work. Basically, it was an educated guess, and therefore the rational decision.
Bryce Ronee
2025-03-01 15:40:12 +0000 UTCThe time loop only started because of the explosion of the Enterprise. It is a space-time distortion, that much energy release triggered it to reset the Enterprise and Bozeman, that explosion wasn't the reason the Bozeman went through time in the first place.
Ian Westcott
2025-02-21 00:22:14 +0000 UTCI know a lot of people think that the Bozeman ALSO went through the time loop (for nearly 90 years), but I don't think that's the case; for all we know, it was only the Enterprise that went through it. Maybe the Bozeman, from their point of view, really did only go through the time fissure just the once
Ee'char
2025-02-15 22:26:34 +0000 UTChttps://www.instagram.com/reel/C_15NPEoA5K/?igsh=MXdsbDFweWF5c3hvZg== This explains the beard lol. Also no worries, no spoilers
E Parhas
2025-02-15 08:02:45 +0000 UTCA great meme came from this episode
E Parhas
2025-02-15 07:41:44 +0000 UTCA very good analogy.
StealthMomo
2025-02-13 23:20:30 +0000 UTCThe Bozeman came from 2278 which is seven years before “STII: The Wrath of Khan” which is set in 2285 and about five years after “ST: The Motion Picture” (according to the 2019 timeline video released on startrek.com). “Cause and Effect” takes place in 2268, so the Bozeman traveled ninety years into the future.
Ron Hubbard Jr
2025-02-13 18:31:30 +0000 UTCIn the fourth loop when they had their discussion in the observation lounge, it was at the normal meeting time of 07:00 that we also saw in the first and second loops. It was held early in the third loop. That gave them the extra time to set up the dekyon field emitter in Data’s positronic matrix.
Ron Hubbard Jr
2025-02-13 18:16:56 +0000 UTCI believe that “Aunt Adele” is named after TNG production crew member, Adele Simmons.
Ron Hubbard Jr
2025-02-13 17:45:39 +0000 UTC“Bozeman”
Ron Hubbard Jr
2025-02-13 17:30:18 +0000 UTCIt has always been my headcanon that Beverly has a little bit of the spacetime awareness/genius that she passed on to Wesley. I don't know if it was intentional by the writers, but Wesley got that whole "warp field Mozart" speech from the Traveler and there are multiple times where Beverly is the first to notice something like this going on. In this case, everyone eventually started having deja vu, but Beverly was having it right from the first loop.
Steve Boshear
2025-02-12 22:40:20 +0000 UTCI've always thought this episode is somehow related to The Twilight Zone episode called "Twenty Two". A woman has a repeating dream while in the hospital where she keeps ending up in the morgue (room 22) with the nurse always saying "Room for one more, honey". She keeps breaking a glass like Dr. Crusher does as well. When she's finally out of the hospital, she goes to get on a flight that has the same number as the room number of the morgue (flight 22). She notices some other coincidences, including a glass breaking. When the flight attendant welcomes her on the flight she says "Room for one more, honey" and that triggers her to run off the flight screaming. The flight explodes on take off, but she escaped. If it's not based on this, they must have at least seen it. The repeated glass breaking is too much of a coincidence.
Bret Kay
2025-02-12 21:27:27 +0000 UTCI guess I have a different opinion here. I always thought that the Bozeman was also trapped in the loop. If you take the idea that the Enterprise repeated the loop 50 times then the Bozeman's loop would have been something like a year and a half. So perhaps that is too long of a period of time to make the connection as the crew would probably have had an even more difficult time remembering that many events to start connecting them to the explosion. Especially since the "cause to explosion" event for them would have only been a few minutes in a 20 month series of Deja Vu feelings. That's how I always thought the two ships were connected.
Stevtrek
2025-02-12 20:25:05 +0000 UTCThe message Data sent makes perfect sense to Data. His mind creates it and his mind decodes it. Cause And Effect predates "Groundhog Day" which came out in February 1993. And might instead trace it's origins to a short film that aired on Showtime in 1990 called "12:01 PM", based on a book by Richard A. Lupoff, that recounts the story of man reliving the same hour (his lunch hour) over and over. A made-for-TV movie (12:01) that aired on Fox Network, was produced at the same time as "Groundhog Day" but aired after it (and BTW is one of my all-time favorite movies), recounts the same idea but as a repeating full day. And is based more directly on the Lupoff book and is a more serious take on the idea. Perhaps the TNG writers were Sci-Fi fans and had read the book that spawned two sequels by the author. The book and the Fox film are worth checking out, although the DVD of the Fox movie regularly sells for $50 to $100.
Stevtrek
2025-02-12 20:14:12 +0000 UTCthis episode was mind blowing when it aired
David Marcoot
2025-02-12 07:13:01 +0000 UTCGuys, I don't know if you are readers, but there is a wonderful, WONDERFUL novel called "Ship of the Line" by Diane Carey that tells the story of the fate and continuing mission of the U.S.S. Bozeman in the TNG era. It is a damn good story and Scotty is in it as well (this takes place after "Relics"). I know many of the younger generations like yourselves aren't into reading (which is a real shame) but there is an audiobook narrated by actor Kevin Conway, who does a damn good impression of Kelsey Grammar, James Doohan, and Patric Stewart. You can easily picture Kelsey as Captain Morgan Bateson. The audiobook is an abridged version and I highly recommend the novel itself but if you don't have time for reading, audiobooks are very convenient. Writer Diane Carey is one of the better and more prolific Star Trek novelists.
StealthMomo
2025-02-12 05:55:19 +0000 UTCKelsey Grammer is a huge Trekkie. Also, the TNG set and the Cheers set were next door to each other, and the two casts would often mingle off-camera. Whoopi Goldberg and Ted Danson were having an affair at the time. The nurse in First Contact who basically rapes Riker is Kelsey Grammer's wife on Cheers.
Scott Reeves
2025-02-12 03:27:35 +0000 UTCOne of my top 5 or so favorite episodes.
JoeCensored
2025-02-11 01:04:10 +0000 UTCIn the discussion, you mention multiple times that they figured it out in 17 tries. That's probably not correct. The episode said they figured it out in 17 days. From what we see, the loop starts during a late night poker game and ends just after the 7am staff meeting the next morning. So it's probably closer to 8 hours per loop rather than 24, and it took them around 50 tries to escape.
Jeff Cornell
2025-02-11 00:43:37 +0000 UTCTo be completely honest, I hated this episode at first - I'm one of the guys who gave it an E grade on your poll. The time loop thing just bugged me, so I actually have not seen this a 2nd time because of it. I was surprised you both gave it an A. (I fast forwarded this initially to see what grade you gave it) So I decided to give it another look and it made me look at it differently. This is a big part of why I love this channel. Thanks guys!
Steve Krautkramer
2025-02-11 00:42:48 +0000 UTCI made the “ok, see ya” joke when I first saw the cold open 30 odd years ago.
Richard Finch
2025-02-10 22:31:33 +0000 UTCThat assumes that the Bozeman isn't also trying to avoid the Enterprise. Perhaps they listened to their Riker the first time.
Jeffrey P
2025-02-10 20:17:04 +0000 UTCRescued the Bozeman from what, exactly? Colliding with empty space?
Jeffrey P
2025-02-10 18:51:21 +0000 UTCThere's an Emmy Awards sketch where the cast of Frasier commands a starship. There's also an issue of the TNG comic book that features Bozeman and a S6 spoiler.
Jeffrey P
2025-02-10 18:41:27 +0000 UTCProfessionally, sure, but I don't think I've played a casual hand under those rules. Reminds me of the lady at the company picnic that was WAY into cornhole and insisted on finding a measuring tape. (Relax, Janet, the Accounting department isn't going on to Regionals.)
Jeffrey P
2025-02-10 18:35:16 +0000 UTCThe temporal distortion existed first. Pre-loop, the Bozeman just traveled to the future. The initial explosion then created (and kept recreating) the 16-ish hour loop for 17 days. I don't think the Bozeman has been in the loop for 80 years. If they were they would have surely figured out a way to send a message not to use that damn tractor beam yet again.
Jeffrey P
2025-02-10 18:30:05 +0000 UTCAlex, if you’re already getting into Cheers and Frasier has yet to show up, that show will just keep improving. One of my very favorite shows. That would be an interesting reaction series, but it’s a lot of seasons to commit too.
Joe Concepts
2025-02-10 04:54:52 +0000 UTCI had always assumed the Bozeman was in that loop, too, just for all those years. But I’m rethinking the whole plot. Geordi, I thought after this rewatch, said an explosion could have caused the anomaly. But if the ship only exploded after the collision with the time traveling ship, wasn’t the anomaly there BEFORE the explosion?
Joe Concepts
2025-02-10 04:48:56 +0000 UTCI figured that scene is just them slowing It down for us, while Data’s perception is actually much faster.
Joe Concepts
2025-02-10 04:42:22 +0000 UTCOne of my favorite episodes.
SetsunaYuki
2025-02-10 04:15:18 +0000 UTCIt drives me insane that they string bet all the time.
Boston_Mike
2025-02-10 03:55:52 +0000 UTCAs a director JF had the nickname “Two-Takes Frakes,” but this script required a lot more than that!
James H
2025-02-10 03:23:47 +0000 UTCI think he grew the beard for his wedding in a later ep.
Sainjl
2025-02-10 02:54:42 +0000 UTCBut he only has the transmitter in that one instance
tyranusfan
2025-02-10 02:26:15 +0000 UTCData could stack the deck however he wants anytime he wants. Keep that in mind.
Greg Quinn
2025-02-10 01:17:52 +0000 UTCI’m more understanding to data figuring out the meaning behind the message because he was the one to send himself the message. We understand our own way of thinking better than others would. As an example, I would often use coded reminders for passwords that would be gibberish to others, but make perfect sense to me. (For example…not one I actually used, but that I would understand. If I read a reminder that said “Amazing, fantastic, more than meets the eye”, to a stranger it’s crazy nonsense. But I would know it’s a two word password “spiderman4transformers”. I might use other codes if one word was capitalized too, but you get the idea). As long as it made sense to Data, I’m fine with the idea. 🤷♂️
Todd “Canuck” Schmuck
2025-02-10 01:17:26 +0000 UTCWhich would also explain why Data was the only one able to consider an alternative solution.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-10 01:09:27 +0000 UTCAlso as someone who loves poker, I just wanted to point out some poker etiquette fouls in this episode, some of which are common in other episodes. 1. Don't splash the pot. Your bet is placed in front of you so it can be verified. Once a round of betting is over, the dealer moves all bets into the pot. All 4 of them splash the pot. 2. Announce a call or a raise, not both. If the bet is 2 and you say call, then your turn is over. A dealer would not allow you to raise after that, as this is something angle shooters would exploit. If you want to raise, you simply announce "raise." Riker and Crusher both announce their call and a raise. 3. All folded hands must remain face down. Worf exposes his hole card when he folds, and that can give players at risk information on the strength or weakness of their own hand or the opponents. Folded hands should be sent to the muck pile immediately so there is no ambiguity around who is in a hand or not. 4. If you are not in the hand you should not be talking about the hand. If you are in the hand, you should not be talking about what you think your opponent has, as it can give information to other players who are still in. Worf tells Crusher he doesn't think Riker has a straight. Worf has already folded so he should keep quiet. Data should not be remarking on the apparent strength or weakness of the hands like he did as he dealt the hands. But what is a little rule breaking amongst friends?
Sherpa Jones
2025-02-10 00:29:09 +0000 UTCIt occurs to me that this could have been an epilogue to Trek VI. As the Enterprise goes into the light at the end of the film, it then appears through this rift here. And the -A accidentally keeps destroying the -D and thus the TOS crew become part of the current era.
Andy Frankham-Allen
2025-02-10 00:25:57 +0000 UTCYou mention adrenaline and I remember them asking why the crew doesn't feel preminition during the crisis. I think that is why. The crew only notices the deja vu when they are relaxed and calm. Once in a stressful situation, the body is flooded with things like adrenaline and that changes their brain states.
Sherpa Jones
2025-02-10 00:01:32 +0000 UTCI mean, it is Worf's fault. He did a shit job with the tractor beam.
Sherpa Jones
2025-02-09 23:59:08 +0000 UTCHe didn't say 1,000 people were talking at the same time, he just identified that there were 1,000 unique voices in the sample. The sample could have contained voices from several iterations of the loop.
Sherpa Jones
2025-02-09 23:58:06 +0000 UTCI like to think of it as the individual is a super being whose spirit inhabits all of the countless iterations of the human person. Intuition, deja vu, and other gut feeling type things are things the super consciousness is aware of from one iteration and can be detected through the subconscious of another iteration. The life span of a person is like a tree of constantly splitting outcomes, some leading to dead ends, some leading to a continuation of life. Where one split leads to death, the part of the super consciousness that leaves that life and joins the whole is re-distributed among the other iterations. This also may be where a gut feeling may come from that saves your life. Your superconscious experienced the death of an instance, and warned all other instances subject to the same or similar circumstances.
Sherpa Jones
2025-02-09 23:54:49 +0000 UTCOr Wesley. What DOES Guinan get up to when we don't see her in an episode? Does her species have some sort of transient hibernation cycle like the Grizellas? (And I just realized writing this down that Grizellas are likely named after Grizzly bears.)
Sherpa Jones
2025-02-09 23:49:19 +0000 UTCTo me, this is the exact same phenomenon that brought the Enterprise C into the future, except that the Bozeman didn't have a historical role to play to prevent an all out war with a major superpower. The crew of the Bozeman were not in the loop 80 years, they were just in it the same 17 days the Enterprise was. It is just that every time they collided, the Bozeman went back to the past. There wasn't an 80 year in limbo, they just started over, went through the time rift, and struck the Enterprise. An episode from their perspective might also be interesting. Also, I remember seeing the TV trailer for this episode when it came out, and that is how I learned I was the only Star Trek nerd in my class. When I asked some classmates if they had seen the trailer and how the Enterprise blew up, some of them didn't care, and some were like "good, I hope they cancel the show."
Sherpa Jones
2025-02-09 23:45:04 +0000 UTCHe didn't know for sure. But it was the only alternative course of action available.
paultardspambot .
2025-02-09 22:50:33 +0000 UTC"it felt like a bit of a reach" I don't think so, because recall Data thinks much faster then we do. He correlates the contents of his own subconscious mind- it even takes HIM a few seconds, but he realizes that had they setup a system like this before, that is what his message must have meant. This wouldnt be true for any other character, but Data knows how his own heuristics worse, so once he sees the three pips, he puts it together fast enough to do the action that he was signaled himself to do- by realizing he was in the same situation and what the signal must have been referring to by means of what he would have sent in the same situation. (sorry again for all the posts, I make these as I'm listening and hear something I want to respond to. Maybe I should wait till the end in the future, but I don;t want to forget the point I want to make.
paultardspambot .
2025-02-09 22:48:57 +0000 UTCoh, also, another "they should have listened to worf" Logically, since they woudnt have known to reverse course the first time around, reversing course could not have caused them to enter the loop. You would think someone would have realized that and said "yeah, we should reverse course because the first time we did this, we wouldnt have reversed course as there would have been no reason to do that" But Picard gives the same reasoning he gave in the "Q caused it" two Picards episode. In that case you could say he was being infliuenced by Q. Here its just something where they should have been able to do the logic since they already knew they were stuck in a loop.
paultardspambot .
2025-02-09 22:44:45 +0000 UTCSome of the movie sets reused for TNG makes it appear that a lot of the 24th century has not changed.
Philbot
2025-02-09 22:44:31 +0000 UTCwell, the "abandon ship"line occurs just before the explosion, so presumably at that point the inertial dampeners have completely failed
paultardspambot .
2025-02-09 22:38:04 +0000 UTCData has way more time to spot the pips then in every other iteration. Minor plot hole..
Philbot
2025-02-09 22:37:00 +0000 UTCMy speculation as to why Crrusher was most in tune with it was her experience with the warp bubble in remember me. She is wesley's mother so she may have had some of whatever Wesley has. Which makes me wonder where Guinan was in this episode, you think this is the sort of thing she would pick up on. Maybe not, or maybe she realized they could figure it out without her help. Or maybe she had a premonition and decided to go on vacation before this time loop occurred. I thought of why they didn't check the federation time beacons before, but I guess they couldn't while they were in the loop. The bozeman crew must have had hella deja vu, but not being our crew and not having data, they couldnt figure it out. (it's funny when you think about it, how many episodes the crew only survives because of Data. I guess you could say the same for Spock in TOS)
paultardspambot .
2025-02-09 22:34:17 +0000 UTCI want to see that. I hate Blu-ray though I already bought all the DVDs.. I’m not buying more.
Philbot
2025-02-09 22:30:58 +0000 UTCThere's different speculation in regards to that. The first is every version of yourself has its own soul and is just as real and unique as each other, but if two join together, they fuse, blend. Given most lives are very similar, the blending is usually seemless. I think the idea of personality distortions being caused by quantum immortality, or sometimes from it, is fascinating. Another theory is there's only one true "you" and the other copies of you are kind of AI clones mostly mimicking what you'd do, but they're empty vessels, NPCs until you take over the vehicle so to speak.
Paul
2025-02-09 22:29:53 +0000 UTCA few notes. The theory you talked about in the beginning is called "quantum immortality". Indeed, all the shots were unique, they made it a point not to reuse shots. In the loop before last, Crusher called them earlier then the previous meetings. She said "sorry, this couldnt wait". That accounts for the extra time they had in that loop to set up Data's transmission band.
paultardspambot .
2025-02-09 22:27:40 +0000 UTCWhen I read it I pictured Niles playing his first officer..
Philbot
2025-02-09 22:27:00 +0000 UTCSeems like a stupid theory because what happens to the other you? He lived his whole life in the other reality then you take over?
Philbot
2025-02-09 22:23:30 +0000 UTCI think his tactic of bluffing every single time backfires pretty quickly… apart from against Worf, who always seems to fold
Worf and Riker Ride Again
2025-02-09 21:33:15 +0000 UTCI think Data had to explain the pips to the rest of the crew. He made a command decision and saved the ship he had to explain the 3’s..
Philbot
2025-02-09 20:52:28 +0000 UTCI know he grew one for his wedding, but that was maybe not this episode?
Philbot
2025-02-09 20:42:20 +0000 UTCTA, gotta disagree. It was an incremental solution, scene by scene. The final run thru was a natural result of the excruciatingly small clues being left through each time. Frakes outdid himself. Brilliant episode. As good as it gets. 👍👍👍
Michael Metrick
2025-02-09 19:02:41 +0000 UTCYa gotta suspend disbelief...
Michael Metrick
2025-02-09 18:54:22 +0000 UTCThis episode represents the very best of pure science fiction. Asimov could have written it. Bravo!!! S all the way.
Michael Metrick
2025-02-09 18:52:44 +0000 UTCfun fact in the last episode Levar wanted a beard and the producers said no. so one day he showed up with a beard and they let it go. but afterword they made him shave, I think the logic was Riker is the one with a beard you cant both do it .
Lt Dan I scream
2025-02-09 18:18:13 +0000 UTCStar Trek where you can die, come back to life, sacrifice your life, and become your own mother. In this case you can get blown up and not get blown up.
James Baloun
2025-02-09 17:38:18 +0000 UTCtop 5 of the series for sure
TivAcrid
2025-02-09 12:25:26 +0000 UTCWasn't Yar's hair similar? It was a big late 80's thing. It doesn't quite work on Ro, but it's very distinct and no one was utilizing it so it's still probably a good choice - Taking available opportunities to distinguish your characters from one another by maximizing the differences in hair colors and styles is huge, because once you lock in on a talented actor you can't easily mess with things like gender, species, race, etc etc.
#MaxwellDidNothingWrong
2025-02-09 11:30:06 +0000 UTCThey also have Data's burned uniform from "Disaster" where we steps in the electrical current so Riker can remove his head and get to Engineering. They make Jay (who never watches ST) wear it. Which is just so funny.
#MaxwellDidNothingWrong
2025-02-09 11:25:04 +0000 UTCSince they repeated 17.4 days worth of the loop, the very beginning of the episode where Beverly calls Rikers bluff could be because she always did, but it also could have been because of the deja vu. The nice thing is you can believe whatever you think makes the episode and characters more enjoyable, in fact, you can believe both.
#MaxwellDidNothingWrong
2025-02-09 11:20:54 +0000 UTCThe theory Josh was talking about at the start is called Quantum Immortality, and it is fascinating indeed, basically we have almost infinite lives and if we die in one universe our "souls" jump into another body in a different universe. It makes some sense too, given how fragile our bodies are and how easy it is to die... As for the episode, I think A+ or "baseline" S if that makes any sense, fits perfectly. It's where the tier-list on its own breaks down because I think this is a fantastic episode, but like Alex, you don't really feel anything. It's just a fun, well-executed science fiction episode. Nothing wrong with that, but even though it's great, I think it's incorrect to give it the same kind of rating as, say, Measure of a Man or Redemption Part 2, or The Wounded, etc... those are meaty S-tiers. Maybe that's it, there's a "fun" S-tier and a "heavy" S-tier.
Paul
2025-02-09 10:38:30 +0000 UTCIt’s Ship of the Line by Diane Carey but I’d caution that if you’ve never watched TNG to not read it until after viewing through Star Trek: First Contact as that’s around where it takes place timeline wise.
Eric Bundy
2025-02-09 06:47:05 +0000 UTCMVP of this Episode was Jonathan Frakes creative direction. He single handedly kept that episode engaging. Agree with the A grade.
penoyer79
2025-02-09 06:32:36 +0000 UTCI would like to see that list. Poor Worf. His answer was so easy. But maybe it wouldn’t have rescued the Boseman?
Shanelle
2025-02-09 05:21:24 +0000 UTCA+ episode. Awesome concept, very eerie. Watching our team uncovering the mystery. Frakes directing. You can’t cut out any scenes. They’re all vital, and its a tight script. So well done.
Chris S.
2025-02-09 05:20:04 +0000 UTCI like to think Pulaski’s greatest contribution to the series was introducing the poker game to the crew.
Matt Everkoul
2025-02-09 04:52:25 +0000 UTCThere's a novel out there that has the bozeman in it
Scarpad’s Domain
2025-02-09 04:32:10 +0000 UTCAn episode best watched on the lower tier of paramount plus with commercials
Scarpad’s Domain
2025-02-09 04:31:00 +0000 UTCvery true
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-09 04:16:19 +0000 UTCRich getting pelted by 30+ year old paint flecks
Terminaldogma01
2025-02-09 03:15:51 +0000 UTCNot really. It’s a pretty tight episode. And the episode isn’t about the Enterprise encountering a ship from the past. It’s about the crew trying to figure out the situation they are in and how to get out of it. Once that happens, there’s no story left.
Column Meanie
2025-02-09 03:14:28 +0000 UTCI think it interesting that Picard changes the recipe for the steamed milk. Sort of shadowing the small changes that allow them to escape the loop.
xadg
2025-02-09 03:09:59 +0000 UTCOn the bluray, there’s a great commentary with Brannon Braga and Seth McFarlane and it’s hilarious
Anthony Picard
2025-02-09 03:06:00 +0000 UTClol
Anthony Picard
2025-02-09 03:03:08 +0000 UTCI watched this episode when it came after the friend of mine and we had the best time at every commercial break lol
Eric Singer
2025-02-09 02:55:09 +0000 UTCJanine has a similar hairdo in one of the ghostbusters movies
Anthony Picard
2025-02-09 02:54:11 +0000 UTCThey could have still added some more reaction stuff and seeing starfleet crew from 23rd century marvel over the 24th century enterprise etc
Derek Orr
2025-02-09 02:53:40 +0000 UTCGood point
Anthony Picard
2025-02-09 02:51:47 +0000 UTCRedlettermedia also has the alien head the used in Darmok. They toss it on the floor in their video. Must have been made well to survive RLM’s treatment of it 33 years later, lol
Anthony Picard
2025-02-09 02:51:07 +0000 UTCAnd she still needed to be around to join kirk and spock in star trek 6😜
Derek Orr
2025-02-09 02:50:51 +0000 UTCAlso, I was thinking why not try both the tractor beam and decompressing the shuttle bay at the same time.
Anthony Picard
2025-02-09 02:48:55 +0000 UTCData: 1000 people talking at the same time. So, no one is listening? 🤔
Dan Here
2025-02-09 02:29:11 +0000 UTCThey could have been in that loop for 100 years and Picard would have never listened to Worf.
Greg Quinn
2025-02-09 01:51:16 +0000 UTCSomeone once made a list of various calamities that would have been avoided if we’d just stop denying every one of Worf’s suggestions
Paul Hess
2025-02-09 01:34:36 +0000 UTCIt's fortunate that they did NOT get Kirstie Alley to play Saavik here, as it would have been wrong. The Bozeman disappeared in 2278. Wrath of Khan happened after 2283!
tyranusfan
2025-02-09 01:19:35 +0000 UTCI was watching a talk show where Star Trek actors were being interviewed. They talked about a silly thing they had to do that they called starship acting. When asked what it was they started shaking back and forth in their chairs. Your remark about Patrick Stewart shaking back and forth in his chair reminded me of that. So now you know what he was doing. His timing was probably a little off.
Keith S
2025-02-09 01:05:40 +0000 UTCDisagree, but not a huge issue either way.
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-09 01:02:28 +0000 UTCTurns out they had to post it on Saturday to get out of the loop.
Yorin
2025-02-09 01:01:37 +0000 UTCHe always wins in these poker games, except when the game is shown in an episode. Just like Starfleet as a whole is a morally just and benevolent organisation, except when we see any Starfleet representative in an episode.
Yorin
2025-02-09 00:58:46 +0000 UTCYeah. How would it have been helpful with 40 seconds before they're stuck to start screaming they're having crazy Deja Vu?
ShazD
2025-02-09 00:46:39 +0000 UTCStill not really getting why it would be better if the episode was longer? I love the ep but it was already stretching into repetitive by the final iteration.
ShazD
2025-02-09 00:45:47 +0000 UTC"Colm down!" - I hope not! :O
MadScientist
2025-02-09 00:08:28 +0000 UTCI never noticed in the first poker game, after Crusher says Riker raises his eyebrow whenever he's bluffing, you see Data in the next shot looking at Riker like "is she right?". Even though it can be repetitive, this really is a fantastic episode. The subtle changes as the crew slowly picks up on the loop, the adrenaline packed hook, the fun poker game scenes, the creepiness of the voices in Crusher's quarters. It's just a great watch. I was debating on the discord the other night whether Riker's solution would have worked or not. Based on the official blueprints and some guesstimation, and with air at sea level pressure and about 20 celsius weighing about 1.2kg per cubic metre, I figured there was roughly 130 tons of air in the main shuttle bay. The Enterprise weight 4.5 million tons. However fast that air comes out, the Enterprise will be moving about 35,000x slower. So even if that air came out at supersonic speeds, they would only be moving about 1 metre every 100 seconds or so. Still it's an S for me. Not much to say beyond that.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-08 23:42:32 +0000 UTCRLM bought one of the destroyed Enterprise D models. They have a video about them mounting it.
Terminaldogma01
2025-02-08 23:28:04 +0000 UTCI think we calculated on the discord that roughly 130 tons of air(give or take) would occupy the main shuttlebay, and assuming that air was ejected at close to the speed of sound, it would actually move the ship, but only at a rate of about 1 metre every hundred seconds.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2025-02-08 23:25:37 +0000 UTCI think the reason the crew always did the collision scene the same way was that their training was kicking in. "Standard procedure" would dictate a lot of their actions once the emergency situation began.
tyranusfan
2025-02-08 23:18:42 +0000 UTCA dozen, A hundred, it’s impossible to tell
LonghillAndy
2025-02-08 23:14:13 +0000 UTCWe’re getting closer to the end of season 5 and I’m not ready for a season 6 song yet, warp factor chaos ROCKS 🤘🏼 even my kids enjoy listening to it in the car 🤣
LonghillAndy
2025-02-08 23:07:31 +0000 UTC"Calm down" and the following 10 seconds of Alex being flustered like a Jr High kid denying a crush is absolutely a top-10 TNG reaction moment for you guys. Had me howling.
Pokeysaurus
2025-02-08 22:51:08 +0000 UTCYeah, unfortunately it was Worf that said it. I bet if Data suggested it they’d be like “an excellent suggestion Mr Data, make it so”
Worf and Riker Ride Again
2025-02-08 22:31:44 +0000 UTCI agree it could do with some more time but I think rather than having more loops they could have had more dialogue with Frasier at the end
Worf and Riker Ride Again
2025-02-08 22:25:57 +0000 UTCWhy would you think Ro had a wig? I believe that was Michelle Forbes' actual hair style at the time. This was filmed in 1992, and there is a movie California from 1993 (presumably filmed in 92 as well) in which she appeared as well, and she had a similar hair style. I couldn't really find any reference if she was indeed wearing a wig at that time in her life, but also this hair style was popular in the 90's.
Marko
2025-02-08 22:17:05 +0000 UTCOne of my all time favorite episodes. The idea of time loops is such an interesting one, and this one handled it so very well. For another TV episode that does some time looping, and coincidentally also stars Michelle Forbes, look to the Outer Limits "A Stitch in Time" from 1996. It's utterly amazing.
Terrafan
2025-02-08 21:44:34 +0000 UTCAppears we need 5 unnamed couples added to the porking rankings for this one
Narnman
2025-02-08 21:42:08 +0000 UTCPlus it's effectively Data's message to Data. All the instances of 3 were there to get him to acknowledge the unnaturalness of their frequency. Because Data transmitted the message at the last possible moment, he was always the only one who would ever have enough context to decipher it correctly -- at the last possible moment.
Avaria
2025-02-08 21:34:02 +0000 UTCInteresting point
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-08 21:33:31 +0000 UTCThe entire 5th act was the crew figuring out how to get out of it, with the number 3 popping up repeatedly. Yes, Data puts the pieces together at the last second but I don’t think it rushes the ending. Still think it feels a little anticlimactic though because all they have to do (through Data’s deduction) is literally step aside to get out of the loop.
Column Meanie
2025-02-08 21:21:56 +0000 UTCI don’t care about the Bozeman. The rushed element was the crew essentially having no clue how to get out of it, to it being solved by Data instantly. More of an incremental solution would’ve been nice, but not enough time.
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-08 21:17:56 +0000 UTCI like how in the last briefing when they're discussing all the 3s, Picard wonders what 3 could mean. It cuts immediately to Riker with his 3 pips in full view.
KatWithAttitude
2025-02-08 21:17:53 +0000 UTCI’m going to disagree that the ending is rushed. The episode ended at the end of the story. Could we see more on the Bozeman? Sure, but that’s not what this episode is about. This episode is about OUR characters being stuck in the time-loop and how THEY figure out how to get out of it. Once that happens, the story’s over. If there’s anything about the ending that doesn’t work it’s that the way out of the loop was literally the Enterprise stepping aside. In that sense it is a little anticlimactic.
Column Meanie
2025-02-08 21:14:39 +0000 UTCAgreed! Way before it's time. I know Josh and Alex have seen this type of story before, but when we saw this, it only existed in arthouse shows (one being a french art film that 12 Monkeys was based off of). For the rest of us this was very new. I remember, somewhere, the writers for this episode and the writer for Groundhog Day (Danny Rubin) admiting that they both came upon this idea individually. They both came out in the same time. It just happened that way, but what a great idea in explaining existence and our place in it. Love it.
PIG
2025-02-08 21:13:34 +0000 UTCOne of the rare episodes I feel suffers just a tiny bit from digital/home media formatting. It added to the tension of the episode to have each repetition perfectly framed by an ad break. Now, without that 2-3 minute gap between loops, there's less opportunity for the audience to fully reset and something a bit undefinable is lost.
Avaria
2025-02-08 21:11:56 +0000 UTCAlso when we say “nothing new” the obvious context is we mean to us, since we speak from our current perspective and not the perspective of 1992 when this released.
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-08 21:08:03 +0000 UTCThis episode was part a very early internet debate on the old Bad Astronomy site concerning whether a few hundred pounds of escaping air from the shuttle bay could actually move a few million tons of starship. It obviously wouldn't even budge it an inch.
Alan Thompson
2025-02-08 21:07:46 +0000 UTCData says, "I determined Commander Riker's suggestion MIGHT be the correct one." He doesn't know that it is, only that his is the wrong one.
Collin Freeman
2025-02-08 21:06:25 +0000 UTCI can't point to examples, but I bet even in 1992 it wasn't a new concept. And Groundhog day wins for best name of what to call it!
Paul Hess
2025-02-08 21:06:24 +0000 UTCIt benefits from repeated watching. Josh said he wished there were a few more cycles he could just replay it a few times!
Paul Hess
2025-02-08 21:04:58 +0000 UTCI agree the ending seems a bit rushed, but I would not want to see anymore iterations. If I was to see anything more, it would have been Kelsey Grammer as the Bozeman captain and his reaction to what he and his crew have been through.
Collin Freeman
2025-02-08 21:04:07 +0000 UTCYep and then we say how this came before those chief
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-08 20:59:48 +0000 UTCThis was worth wasting a Saturday afternoon.
Keith S
2025-02-08 20:57:54 +0000 UTCHaha you guys literally said that “its nothing new” and listed off all the other times you’ve seen it….which were made after this episode.
Column Meanie
2025-02-08 20:57:32 +0000 UTCI have a feeling Josh will move this to an S by the end of the season rankings. I think it benefits from time; no pun intended. I always liked it but didn't love it until later, as I was spoiled growing up by being familiar with some really good classic Doctor Who paradoxes (Day of the Daleks, Mawdryn Undead, etc). But as time went on, I liked it more and more and by the time Redlettermedia rated it as one of their favorites, I was in complete agreement.
THE LORE!!!
2025-02-08 20:53:56 +0000 UTCNoooo it's a day early and I'm out doing stuff!!
Evan Guthrie
2025-02-08 20:52:34 +0000 UTCS-Tier!
Tom Occhipinti
2025-02-08 20:48:52 +0000 UTCTrue, but that was in a different time loop for me
Paul Hess
2025-02-08 20:46:05 +0000 UTCHow would you say "Hey, we tried the shuttle bay. It didn't work. Try this..." by using one word. AKA, the writers simplified it.
startrekiborg
2025-02-08 20:43:39 +0000 UTCWe didn’t say it was repeating it, and we acknowledged it came before them.
Josh (Target Audience)
2025-02-08 20:42:08 +0000 UTCIf they had another 1 or 2 segments, I think there's a strong possibility you would've said it was starting to get repetitive. Plus, how many camera angles do you want? Lol But, seeing more of the Boseman would've been great.
startrekiborg
2025-02-08 20:39:58 +0000 UTCRiker: What if turning back is what caused the collision. That's a bit silly, since you can imagine the first time it happened there would have been no reason to think about turning back.
Paul Hess
2025-02-08 20:35:22 +0000 UTCIt's amazing how little things can sometime have a big impact. I think the glass breaking really made this episode punch. It sort of paced each cycle while also adding an air of inevitability to events.
Paul Hess
2025-02-08 20:33:37 +0000 UTCIn Star Trek, Riker is considered a grandmaster poker player. But everyone always calls his bluff and wins!
Paul Hess
2025-02-08 20:30:00 +0000 UTCGreat episode, a definite A. For any statisticians out there, how did you like the ridiculous line: "I'm going to run a pattern recognition algorithm on the number 3".
Paul Hess
2025-02-08 20:28:43 +0000 UTCIt's a little unfair to say that this is repeating the premise of all those other things, which actually came after it? But I assume it's not a new premise even back in 1992.
Paul Hess
2025-02-08 20:27:56 +0000 UTCI'm not looking at the script, so I may butcher the explanation a bit, but I believe that the Enterprise encounters a temporal anomaly that serves as a doorway from 2278 to 2368 -- the Bozeman entered on its end and in its time and immediately exited in 2368. The time loop is caused by the Enterprise's warp core breach. The Bozeman reappears each time because that event -- it exiting the temporal distortion -- is part of the time that becomes caught in the loop, but they had only spent a few seconds in 2368 after exiting the anomaly. The Enterprise is thrown back nearly a day and has to repeat it over and over.
Jesse Manning
2025-02-08 20:24:42 +0000 UTCOh no, I got ya, I was just Pippin' your Jordan. 🖖🫂
A G
2025-02-08 20:22:21 +0000 UTCWhen I watch this one I wonder if the other ship was actually trapped for years, or if the temporal anomaly dropped them out in the same spot as the enterprise; so they jumped forward in time before looping due to the crash. If so, then it may have only been trapped in the loop for the same time period as the enterprise. The temporal anomaly in that case only caused a loop b/c of the technobable effects of the two warp core explosions and whatnot, but prior to that it still acted as a gate between the 80 year gap. I like this as head cannon if only b/c it makes the other ship seem less stupid--and answers a plot hole of if we really believe they were looping for 80 years, what else caused them to loop; if not the crash? Since enterprise was only looping for short time.
KiraIsMathematicallyEvil
2025-02-08 20:09:57 +0000 UTCGood call on the glass, Alex. Ofcourse, it still broke.
startrekiborg
2025-02-08 20:09:26 +0000 UTCBut ... it's Saturday. Damned timeloops.
Sam Langanke
2025-02-08 20:06:15 +0000 UTCGood call Josh on guessing it was using Riker's choice.
startrekiborg
2025-02-08 20:06:00 +0000 UTCWhat took me years to get is that the first poker scene is a repeat loop as well, you can just hear a slit-second hesitation when Worf says "I hope... so" to the cards being sufficiently shuffled.
Alan Thompson
2025-02-08 19:55:22 +0000 UTCGuess I have something to look forwad to after work. Just hope I don't get caught in a time loop.
Nolan
2025-02-08 19:51:58 +0000 UTCIt seemed the obvious number of times to post… 🤣
Brian Dunleavy
2025-02-08 19:50:57 +0000 UTC.... Brian... 3...3....three...
A G
2025-02-08 19:47:56 +0000 UTCBy God Yes. We are finally here :) Remember Me S4E5 and Cause and Effect S5E18 are my favorite episodes of STNG. I call them the Double Crush.
PIG
2025-02-08 19:39:14 +0000 UTCI love everything about this, but especially Frakes' direction in making each pass through feel fresh. Absolutely top tier, I've lost count of how many times I've watched this one.
Darin Starr
2025-02-08 19:36:44 +0000 UTCS++ episode
Phil Ken Sebben
2025-02-08 19:08:10 +0000 UTCTop 10 April Fools Jokes on the Enterprise #5. Put a tiny speaker in Dr Crusher's bedroom to play garbled voices.
Ee'char
2025-02-08 19:00:11 +0000 UTCA dozen, and hundred. It's impossible to tell...
The Ninth Doctor
2025-02-08 18:58:48 +0000 UTCSH*T F**K SH*T F*CK!!! It's happening. EVERYBODY SHUT THE FRONT DOOR! IT'S SUPER TREK SATURDAY! 🖖🖖🖖🖖
A G
2025-02-08 18:57:30 +0000 UTCYes! Can’t wait to watch this
Brian Dunleavy
2025-02-08 18:56:53 +0000 UTCYes! Can’t wait to watch this
Brian Dunleavy
2025-02-08 18:56:49 +0000 UTCYes! Can’t wait to watch this
Brian Dunleavy
2025-02-08 18:56:45 +0000 UTCDoes anyone feel like we’ve done this before?
Thicketdweller
2025-02-08 18:56:41 +0000 UTC
