Target Audience / UNCUT - Darmok (TNG S5E2)

I think this episode is way overrated. A lot of people act like it's a top 3 episode of TNG. That being said, I do think it's really good, I'd give it in A. But it's not even a top 20 TNG episode for me. That's how good this show is. I will say though, I enjoy this episode more every time I watch it

Wrestling With Gaming

2025-01-10 04:58:21 +0000 UTC

I can't believe you gave this a D on this. This is probably my favorite TNG episode ever. Shaka, when the walls fell indeed!

jreekers

2025-01-03 13:46:50 +0000 UTC

the timer is a nice addition for me if i accidentally pause one stream, before it was just a blurred square so this is better imho

david mcgowan

2024-12-30 21:18:17 +0000 UTC

I have the same controversial opinion as Josh for this one. It's a D from me. I almost always skip it.

jon bolton

2024-12-30 19:07:01 +0000 UTC

I hate to say it, but I think you guys really missed Tanagra for the ocean on this one. Jk, went into this looking forward to you guys not liking it as much as I did. I'm glad you got something out of it though. It's probably in my top 3 but I know it's not technically the best episode, it just fits with what I like.

LoTeq

2024-12-30 09:21:42 +0000 UTC

This is one of my favorite episodes.

Gregory Foster

2024-12-22 22:06:45 +0000 UTC

Idiom and metaphor are culturally specific. My understanding is that it is a huge stumbling block for many ESL folks who know the words but haven't spent time immersed in the "culture".

James W.

2024-12-22 01:32:18 +0000 UTC

You shouldn’t be doing anything wrong, what you’re describing should work

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-20 21:15:40 +0000 UTC

Yeah I get that. Just rejoined and have my copy on Paramount plus. When I was a member before (last month). All I had to do was sync your uncut with paramount plus episode and hit play at same time and it was fine no timer on your side.....so not sure what changed or what I'm doing wrong

Heather M Santell

2024-12-20 20:33:16 +0000 UTC

You need to sync up your own copy. This has always been the case.

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-20 20:20:09 +0000 UTC

Why is the timer on? It wasn't like this before.

Heather M Santell

2024-12-20 20:15:47 +0000 UTC

We used to think this didn't make sense now i have conversations in gif. What fools we were.

Fishing Trip

2024-12-19 22:52:47 +0000 UTC

Nepobaby

Fishing Trip

2024-12-19 22:23:06 +0000 UTC

We used to think this didn't make sense now i have conversations in gif. What fools we were.

Fishing Trip

2024-12-19 22:22:49 +0000 UTC

Hey guys, by your own standards, S doesn’t mean objectively the best ever, but one that really hits you.

Crankygrandma

2024-12-19 21:57:56 +0000 UTC

The nobility of the Tamarian captain, and the way their language is unintelligible as a viewer then is understandable by the end, are some of the reasons why this is a S Tier episode for me.

DerekBWheels

2024-12-19 05:21:23 +0000 UTC

As a Shakespeare nerd, this episode to me fit in very much with the similar style and way of conveying the story as a great many of Shakespeare's plays were told. It is my favourite Episode of TNG by far. Patrick Stewart and Paul Winfield's acting in this episode both were letter perfect. The only episode of any series that tops this is "In The Pale Moonlight" from DS9.

Matt Duborg

2024-12-19 04:16:24 +0000 UTC

Well up to a point

Derek Orr

2024-12-16 15:51:29 +0000 UTC

This one really benefits from a second viewing. Once you know aliens’ intent, you have a sense of what they’re trying to say from the first scene. This one’s also resonating with me more that I have a toddler whose speech is really developing. I may hear babbling but it’s always crystal clear in HIS head what he’s trying to say. And when I REALLY listen and pay attention, and realize what he’s saying, we have these great moments of connection.

Stuart Arbury

2024-12-16 13:36:58 +0000 UTC

Same, makes me tear up every time!

Bret Kay

2024-12-16 03:27:06 +0000 UTC

^ THIS

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

2024-12-16 03:08:09 +0000 UTC

Josh, his face black, his eyes red. Josh on the ocean. Shaka, when the walls fell. Alex his eyes open. Alex and the audience at Tanagra. Alex and the audience on the ocean.

Paul Noad

2024-12-16 01:41:36 +0000 UTC

Wow, unbelievable reaction there, when I heard you were watching TNG this is the episode I fast forwarded to in my head. I think this is a solid fan favourite and one of mine, but perhaps it is looked on more fondly with time and memes. You already did it after all! "John Wilkes Booth at the play" was brilliant, you get it. xx

Leyton Jay

2024-12-15 23:49:55 +0000 UTC

Plot Synopsis: They speak in memes from a TV show Picard's not seen.

Leyton Jay

2024-12-15 23:06:26 +0000 UTC

I always thought it was fun that that the universal translator was working fine at translating words into English but just couldn’t get the meaning because no one knew their culture and history 😅

Darren Seal

2024-12-15 19:27:00 +0000 UTC

Target Audience watching Darmok. Josh on the ocean.

Joe Stacey

2024-12-15 19:15:21 +0000 UTC

Zero chance anyone could say you're not invested with integrity though - watching a D episode a week later w/ context just to see if anything stirred. I applaud your efforts sir.

Matt Newmark

2024-12-15 15:40:46 +0000 UTC

This is what happens when someone lays a D on Darmok :D

Matt Newmark

2024-12-15 15:36:30 +0000 UTC

Hell, I’ve watched that ABC Afterschool Special “The Bonding” two more times since Alex and Josh gushed about it. I have to admit, I’ve gone from outright hating it to only disliking it!

Raphael Gaytan

2024-12-15 14:48:15 +0000 UTC

Appreciate and respect your honest reactions. There are a lot of layers to this story that I’ve only come to appreciate after years of watching it. The acting is outstanding along with cinematography, and score. And that’s what hooked me. Though not flawless in execution, I’d give it an S for the script and for Patrick Stewart and Paul Winfield’s acting. They were a pitch perfect duet. What I think is particularly prescient now about the story is, how difficult it is to communicate with one another - and we live on the same planet! This is also an episode about storytelling and how important it is in cultures. Picard and Darmok shared stories that completed each other’s character arcs. The ending of the story of Gilgamesh matched the death scene of Darmok. Personally, I find this masterful story telling. While at first it may appear that Riker and the crew are shown in a bad light for not being able to immediately retrieve Picard, I think it’s a fine example of how a group of people can work professionally together, using each other‘s differences, (i.e. Troy and Data) to ultimately overcome an initial failure. Once again, Riker was able to save Picard‘s life and that’s a win in my book. Star Trek itself is a metaphor and an example of the human condition. It shows us that in our quest to learn about new life and civilizations, we also learn about ourselves. There also may be a sub plot in this episode about the Akashic records, but I won’t go there. Thanks to whoever reads and makes it to the bottom of this rambling post, lol. And thanks to Alex and Josh. It’s always fun to see how different minds process a story and what each of you takes away from it. It’s also fun to see how obviously Josh didn’t enjoy it, and Alex did enjoy it, just from looking at their eyes in certain scenes. Alex was locked in like a laser. Anyway, thanks again,🖖

Jg

2024-12-15 06:31:58 +0000 UTC

The show was shot on film. They can keep rereleasing it in higher and higher definitions.

Jeffrey P

2024-12-15 04:30:15 +0000 UTC

"Shaka Zulu, his spear flying" isn't a meme. Like Juliet on her balcony, if you don't know who Shaka Zulu was or why he had a spear, it's worthless to you. Contemporary Memes are jokes that are funny because at least some of their context is obvious. Sitting a in a burning room stating everything is fine is a meme.

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:36:47 +0000 UTC

R.I.P. Star Trek

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:29:45 +0000 UTC

I had forgotten how tense it really got near the end there.

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:25:52 +0000 UTC

I remember I had to watch "Yesterday's Enterprise" a few times to fully take it all in, it was such a mindfvck.

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:24:39 +0000 UTC

I mean, they make sense early on if you have an imagination, as Picard apparently did.

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:23:39 +0000 UTC

Is féidir leat é a bhaint amach má leanann tú ar aghaidh ag triail!

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:22:14 +0000 UTC

I like how cocky the crew was before they actually met the Tamarians. Paraphasing: PICARD: "What? No communication in seven meetings??? Well, we're smart, we have the universal translator, it will be no problem for us!" DATHAN: "Rai and Jiri at Lungha. Rai of Lowani. Lowani under two moons. Jiri of Ubaya. Ubaya of crossed roads at Lungha. Lungha, her sky grey. Rai and Jiri at Lungha." PICARD: ...

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:17:34 +0000 UTC

The monster design was fine.

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:13:50 +0000 UTC

I thought I just had to live with that discharge...

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:10:25 +0000 UTC

I don't get it either.

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:09:25 +0000 UTC

Holy shit! 300+ comments??!

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:08:10 +0000 UTC

I think why I like it so much is that it's not like anything I would ever think up myself!

Jovet

2024-12-15 01:07:08 +0000 UTC

I remembered this episode from the original airing and didn't remember caring for it; to the extent that I didn't even watch the episode with Alex and Josh (as I usually would.) After a lot of "rave" comments, I rewatched the episode. I don't think I would go as low as D, but I'm much closer to Josh with a C.

Dale Williams

2024-12-14 20:38:48 +0000 UTC

Look up on Google - Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra Tshirt I have a picture of me wearing this shirt and loved it for many years until it faded too much. Anyhoo, I had a feeling that it wasn't going to be S-tier. I was thinking "A", maybe "B" at the lowest. When I saw that "D" I was in shock . . . at first. I fall somewhere in between Alex and Josh. Over the decades I've enjoyed the "inside joke" of understanding Darmok and Jalad. I've played MMO's and named some characters "Darmok". I'd be running around, and without fail, I'd get people sending messages in glee about Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. Good times. As for the episode itself, yes. Especially for someone who doesn't really care much about languages, communication, etc., this episode would likely feel very monotone, some slight bright spots, but overall, very lacking in engagement. And while I don't feel like that deeply, I DO understand it. As much so in fact that when I decide to binge on TNG every few years, I nearly always skip the Darmok episode. I greatly appreciate its historical importance in the franchise's timeline, but I've seen it enough times that it sometimes is a chore to get through.

John McCurdy

2024-12-14 19:34:34 +0000 UTC

You didn't notice Ashley Judd's first acting role.

JoeCensored

2024-12-14 17:22:03 +0000 UTC

I watched it a week later and felt the same. It’s fine, just doesn’t get me invested

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-14 16:42:12 +0000 UTC

I think Josh's reaction suffered a little from watching it right after Redemption 2 and wondering if it would be something similar or more like Family, when it was neither. Waiting a week in between might have cleansed the palate enough for you to be itching for whatever came next. It's an S for me and one of my top 5 of the series. It shows how important communication is. And if it's possible to do even with an alien species, there's no excuse for not doing it with each other who speak the same language just with different outlooks here on earth. The nod to needing to understand our own myths and legends a little better is appreciated too.

Dan Halstead

2024-12-14 16:19:27 +0000 UTC

I'm gonna be honest, I fully expected 1 of you to have a negative take(though maybe a C instead of a D). I'm much more surprised by people disliking Drumhead or Measure of a Man. I think the vast majority love this ep, but it's certainly one of those eps known to have it's vocal detractors. I agree it's not a good choice to introduce someone to Trek with. It needs the buildup first or first time viewers will just be confused. Even seasoned trekkies will be confused at first. And I'm one of those people that questions how they could build starships using only allegory as a language, though I believe beta canon establishes they have a secondary "math and science" language which lines up with their invitation message at the start of the ep. I wouldn't rank it as a top 5 or probably even top 10 episode, but somewhere in the top 20. So why is it an S to me? Well a lot of comments have said this in one way or another, but I'll put it in my own words. I think the principles embodied here are at the core of Star Trek's message. So we get that the words but not the context are being translated, but otherwise the UT is useless. I think the UT can be a detriment to dealing with aliens because if you can fully understand each other's words, you end up having to manufacture some kind of irrational cultural practice to create tension for the sake of the script, and it can make said aliens seem rather backward. Alternatively they could have made the universal translator unable to figure out their language until some context clue opens a door to figuring out their language, and all this could have been done on the Enterprise with very little drama. But what I like is that the Tamarians are in many ways very much like the Federation, seeking friendship and understanding with their neighbors. The Klingons may be allies, but fundamentally they are VERY different from the federation. Romulans may have more in common with humans in terms of culture/family given how we heard Jarok speak of his family, but politically they are imperialistic and completely at odds with starfleet/UFP goals. Ferengi are driven purely by personal profit. Borg are technozombies. Cardassians are.......not very nice. Aside from the other species in the Federation, many of whom may have joined more for military protection/economic benefits than ideological alignment, there's not a ton of cultures out there that are close to federation values(maybe the First Federation and a couple others). Now certainly there are some big differences as well. The Tamarians come across as a rather martial society, much more so than the pseudo-military starfleet, but they're not belligerent and seem to driven by a code of conduct that is both honorable and ethical. They could perhaps be compared to to the knights of Camelot. Actually I expect Tamarians would just eat up Arthurian legend once communication was established. That said choosing to risk both Dathon and Picard's lives to pursue communication is definitely not something starfleet would do. To be fair the first officer did object. But in the end he backed his captain, something he has in common with Riker. Certainly the previous attempts should have given starfleet enough of their language to figure out they use a lot of proper nouns and verbs, and that we simply don't understand the context of the phrases. If I were researching to try and open dialogue a second time, I'd probably set up a holodeck program that would essentially be a visual aid to help with translation. Have a central display table, and a control panel with pictures of various environments, people, vehicles, actions, tools, objects, weather, etc.... that can be touched followed by touching part of the table to add it to that point. This system could be easily demonstrated and let you paint just about any scenario. If you could get the Tamarians to send a delegation(maybe using hand gestures). As long as they're willing to visit, you could lead them to the holodeck, demonstrate the program, and get them to literally paint a picture to explain what they're saying. At the end of the day though, even though both ships could have said "we tried" and just gone their separate ways in peace, Dathon was so committed to building that bridge between their cultures that he was willing to die for it. Just for the chance to establish a dialogue and make a friend. It's why the fireside scene works so well and is such an emotional scene. Picard sees the sacrifice Dathon made just so he could understand, and now that he does, he's watching this man, this kindred spirit who likely would have become a lifelong friend, die for his efforts. But it's Picard retelling the tale of Gilgamesh, a story with many parallels to Darmok and Jilad at Tanagra, that really sells the scene. Even if Dathon didn't fully understand everything in the story, he clearly picked up on enough to see that their people have a lot in common. Given that story was the last thing he heard, I like to think it brought Dathon some peace at the end knowing his sacrifice had been worth it.

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-12-14 12:23:15 +0000 UTC

@timothy Well, I have seen sex with less hitting but no, we can't count being beat up as a score. That would be a whole different Porn Hub channel lol

Prof Moff

2024-12-14 12:13:11 +0000 UTC

Please state the nature of the tactical emergency?

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-12-14 10:42:19 +0000 UTC

That was brilliant

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-12-14 09:28:03 +0000 UTC

To be fair, the lives of everyone on Earth/in the Federation was at stake. Riker certainly knows there are concerns that outweigh any of their lives.

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-12-14 08:47:10 +0000 UTC

Like the translation. Dathon getting fucked up by the creature didn't count?

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-12-14 08:43:52 +0000 UTC

Riker, his 4th pip denied

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-12-14 08:32:53 +0000 UTC

by the way, the tamarian captian was one of the most popular original action figures. Had that one as a kid.

paultardspambot .

2024-12-14 08:05:23 +0000 UTC

as i said before, it does make sense. Imagine a culture that starts to use internet memes as shorthand and that becomes so efficient it replaces regular language. Maybe they had their on version of the internet where short memes spread faster then longer, more elaborate communications till eventually it completely replaced language and the memes meaning was understoof but not the original language. AS i pointed out, since the database knew the terms, it means they incorporated mythologies from other species they ad contact with, meaning they had contact with other species before this development. Other species dont have the prime directive, so who knows how the introduction of aliens and their technology could have altered the evolution of a species. Particularly if they had something like neuralink and communicated in thoughts directly, that would probably make extraneous language less necessary. We also should figure they are communicating with the enterprise in a very basic way, and the order of memes and tone and such (they do use different tones and body language) also affects communication, and we know they have math as they sent the federation mathematical communications to show they were intelligent. Its possible things that cant be communicated in memes are encoded in math directly, probably how they do science and engineering.

paultardspambot .

2024-12-14 08:04:15 +0000 UTC

Locutus and Riker, at Wolf 539

paultardspambot .

2024-12-14 07:51:12 +0000 UTC

Homer Simpson, fading into the bush, his eyes wide

paultardspambot .

2024-12-14 07:48:54 +0000 UTC

the memes were popular because they literally communicate in memes. Like you could imagine this as a way the language evolved, people start using memes to communicate and and understand the memes but lose the language that gave rise to them. Thats why they can incorporate the mythology of other cultures they've encountered as the database wouldnt have known those terms if they were from the tamarain home world.

paultardspambot .

2024-12-14 07:46:49 +0000 UTC

a few things. 1. The universal translator was working but it only rendered the words, not the meaning. 2. The children of Tama is what they were known by, maybe starfleet heard it from others. 3. Robin Leffler, the girl in engineering who was working with Geordi, was played by Ashley Judd. I believe this is her first appearance.

paultardspambot .

2024-12-14 07:28:17 +0000 UTC

I cry every time I watch this episode. I give it an S tier. I risk everything to connect and make a friend.

JackieNCB

2024-12-14 04:53:23 +0000 UTC

I'm glad one of you didn't like this episode. I've never liked it and could hardly make it through this re-watch. The jacket made it watchable 😀

Gary Leyh

2024-12-14 04:41:00 +0000 UTC

Couldn’t have said it better myself. And despite what many of us hope, myself included, this is a reaction channel not a “watch us become hardcore trek fans 100% guaranteed” channel. Lol

Lwaxana’s Poolboy

2024-12-14 00:21:20 +0000 UTC

This is a top 5 episode for me. It's Star Trek doing true science fiction. It's an amazing story pulled off to perfection.

Richard Wild

2024-12-14 00:10:34 +0000 UTC

Facepalm Picard at Josh’s reaction

Lwaxana’s Poolboy

2024-12-13 23:41:31 +0000 UTC

I love this episode I give it an A tier

Josef Nitervol

2024-12-13 23:36:34 +0000 UTC

They speak in metaphor, they would have to "know what they mean" before they say it regardless of the words. Its necessary for the entire show that she can't read that for some reason this time.

Alan Thompson

2024-12-13 22:26:56 +0000 UTC

I enjoy Riker's measured response in this episode. He would have been justified firing on the Tamarian ship as soon as they kidnapped Captain Picard. Instead, Riker tried to communicate with them, tried sending a shuttle down, tried modifying the transporter, assigning Data and Troi to solve the communication gap, and then - only when Picard was in imminent danger - did Riker use minimal force to disable the Tamarian's equipment that was blocking the transporter. Once again we see Riker is more than ready for the Captain's chair.

Kyle Stewart

2024-12-13 21:38:11 +0000 UTC

Hey, Mesa here. So, I decided staring at you guys, as handsome as you both are, staring into space during silence, is not for me lol. I love your YouTube platform, and those edited videos are perfect, that's why I'm a member there. Please keep that channel going no matter how big of time this Patreon takes. Thank you for the free month gift. This is indeed a channel worth the money for content.

Denaxas

2024-12-13 21:24:34 +0000 UTC

I agree with this episode taking a while to get going. That scene of him telling the story to the other captain is soooo worth the wait. It’s so good! What gets me equally excited for this episode is the fact that this show is able to have success when the “big”stakes are: not being able to communicate with another species. So few shows would be able to pull that off.

Anthony Picard

2024-12-13 20:24:49 +0000 UTC

I was 34 when this first aired and I had been a Trekker since 1966. I was initially put off and frustrated by the repetitive dialog and the length of time it was taking to understand what Dathon was trying to communicate. Upon subsequent viewings, I easily recognized the sheer brilliance of the episode's premise. This episode is an example of what sets Star Trek apart from nearly all other space-based science fiction.

thebeefmaster

2024-12-13 19:37:39 +0000 UTC

Two episodes of Season Five absolutely blew me away upon my first viewing in 1991-1992…”Darmok” and the one we all know about near the end of the season!!

Raphael Gaytan

2024-12-13 18:24:53 +0000 UTC

Haven't read all the comments, but surprised to not see my takeaway. When this aired, I thought it was an OK episode, but the communication by analogy was farfetched. Living now in meme culture, our society seems obsessed with this form of communication. I now would rank it A tier.

C

2024-12-13 17:48:46 +0000 UTC

The location is one of the many little valleys under the Hollywood sign- no sight lines to the city, its pretty amazing that it works for this! I like to imagine the Universal Translator is working, but its only translating the words and the sequence of them is making it unable to parse anything intelligible.

Nathan Koga

2024-12-13 16:55:17 +0000 UTC

Everybody here seems to agree that the appreciation for this episode goes up with multiple rewatches. We need to come up with a clockwork orange type setup in the new studio for Josh to rewatch (famous scene where the character is strapped in the chair and his eyes are pinned open, forced to watch violent videos over and over, as a form of aversion therapy).

Paul Hess

2024-12-13 16:34:42 +0000 UTC

Meh she cant read some races like ferengi etc

Derek Orr

2024-12-13 16:33:30 +0000 UTC

Silly?

Derek Orr

2024-12-13 16:31:41 +0000 UTC

This is Star Trek! No endless pew pew or soap operas or silly comedy. Science Fiction that has an intellectual component and examines the human adventure.

Derek Orr

2024-12-13 16:30:15 +0000 UTC

I don't get the criticism of Riker here. He was trying multiple reasonable attempts to rescue the captain, in each case trying to go to the edge of what the clearly superior opposing ship might allow without being provoked into a violent response. Meanwhile he assigned a smart team to try to figure out how to communicate with the other ship, and tried himself to point out to them that their own captain was in peril.

Paul Hess

2024-12-13 16:22:08 +0000 UTC

Sokath

Matt Newmark

2024-12-13 14:50:06 +0000 UTC

Well, my experience is that it usually is. Whatever. I don't like this episode as much as others do, and like THERE ARE THREE LIGHTS, I kinda get tired of hearing about it...

Max Shenk

2024-12-13 12:58:41 +0000 UTC

Oh, I know. I meant first contact episodes as episodes like Darmok, Tin Man, or Suddenly Human where it's our first time dealing with a new race/species, not necessarily the First Contact episode itself. But even then, Josh only gave it an A, and I don't think it made Alex's top 10 either? Meaning that although you guys both really liked that one, it still didn't hit that next level for you. And I'm guessing that was probably just because of the type of episode that it was.

BN13

2024-12-13 12:27:17 +0000 UTC

I did rate this A tier, but for me I don't really enjoy rewatching it. I agree with Alex's take that it is an important episode.

barry vanwieringen

2024-12-13 11:22:17 +0000 UTC

What I find surprising is that they didn't go on to cross-reference the other terms used, something Data could have done with the computer once Troi helped him work out the "key".

Paul Rymer

2024-12-13 10:07:41 +0000 UTC

@Deep Red What about the Doctor Who character? haha

Jovet

2024-12-13 07:34:26 +0000 UTC

@Andreas Schmitt Jackets in lieu of the proper shirt/top? (What Picard is wearing underneath it isn't standard either.) That's different than a jacket worn over a regular uniform. Only the CO gets to wear a jacket? Picard is cold but Troi is not??

Jovet

2024-12-13 07:33:21 +0000 UTC

Only when I perceive that "blather" as fueled by herd mentality.

Jovet

2024-12-13 07:24:32 +0000 UTC

I've always liked this episode. And, for me, it just improves on rewatch. To me, this is quintessential Star Trek.

Ron

2024-12-13 07:03:08 +0000 UTC

""He is a man of deep feelings." Spock

Badger

2024-12-13 06:07:13 +0000 UTC

"Do you have burning phaser discharge from your torpedo hole? You may need to speak to your doctor."

Nolan

2024-12-13 05:52:26 +0000 UTC

I was living with an anthropology professor when it aired. She said they had a vibrant debate at the office on whether it made any sense. The overall verdict was that it held up. I don’t fully agree, but again the execution was very satisfying to me. “Sokath, his eyes uncovered!” First time I noticed they fixed the phasers in the remaster. They originally came inexplicably out of the torpedo hole this ep.

rear adm. crackbiscuit

2024-12-13 05:40:38 +0000 UTC

Didn’t care much for it when I was young. Really appreciate it now as an old man

Billy Scranton

2024-12-13 05:29:06 +0000 UTC

great episode

Zack

2024-12-13 05:06:05 +0000 UTC

I think I considered it a B grade at best on first watch. But it’s one of those episodes where as time passes, both from rewatching and pondering it, My appreciation grew. The fact that linguists love it, as well as their perspective on it provide a ton of depth under the surface. Universal translator can do one to one substitutions for nouns and verbs, but the subtleties of communication between even different languages on earth are much more complicated. I’ve heard a lot of the ideas came from Star Trek fans questions on the universal translator. Since so much of the science in Star Trek is based on while theoretical, real scientific concepts and ideas, they were interested in how that applies to language/communication(there’s a nod to that in another episode based on how something as simple as family and personal names can be different, such as in Japan where the family name comes first before the given name instead of the English/latin derived way). I think it ranks so high because of the amount of discussion and ideas it prompts from fans after watching.

Todd “Canuck” Schmuck

2024-12-13 04:33:22 +0000 UTC

And even a blind squirrel stumbles upon an acorn occasionally.

Owen Madden

2024-12-13 04:22:06 +0000 UTC

Similarly I think I considered it a B grade at best on first watch. But it’s one of those episodes where as time passes, both from rewatching and pondering it, My appreciation grew.

Todd “Canuck” Schmuck

2024-12-13 04:20:19 +0000 UTC

I'm with Mark. Top 20 - maybe even top 10!

Owen Madden

2024-12-13 04:19:07 +0000 UTC

"Josh'll like it eventually." Not after the glassing he's getting from the Patreons. I'm seeing entrenched warfare for him when it comes to this episode. 10 years from now we'll get the Trektrospective and it'll be all: "And here's another thing about why Darmok is so g--damn stupid!" Complete with wildly gesticulating finger. 🙃

Nolan

2024-12-13 04:16:07 +0000 UTC

Well, it's just a really well-known obvious example. I think most people know what I'm describing when I mention marvel.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-13 04:12:39 +0000 UTC

Never a good sign when Josh is playing with his phone at the 1.24 mark.

Owen Madden

2024-12-13 03:55:07 +0000 UTC

I agree with Alex here, I liked this one pretty good when I first saw it and I remember that I really had an Ah-Ha moment and felt like I thought about something in a different way all of a sudden. It’s fine that we have “Josh with imagination closed” this time. Star Trek is unique in the fact that there are different storylines and episodes that resonate with different individuals and it ends up have some story that says something to everyone

Jack Fletcher

2024-12-13 03:47:53 +0000 UTC

Keep in mind that much of the backlash you are getting now is from how this has been the "I like trek too" circle jerk episode for fans for decades now, when they felt just like Josh did when it ran in the 90s but tell all the other fans how they love it. I was there in 91, lots of people thought this was a silly episode.

Alan Thompson

2024-12-13 03:42:49 +0000 UTC

I think many of us are just as shocked about the D grade as you are about 3/4 of patrons giving it an S lol.

thesolarwind

2024-12-13 03:31:15 +0000 UTC

I found out just recently that the shot from outside Picard's ready room was a very small model, and they matted Patrick Stewart into the window every time they used that angle. (I had always, I guess naively, believed that they'd merely painted the outside of the soundstage wall!)

tyranusfan

2024-12-13 03:26:14 +0000 UTC

This one is a solid B for me. I think Josh makes some solid points though.

penoyer79

2024-12-13 03:10:58 +0000 UTC

Josh and Alex have wondered about how people thought of these episodes when first watching them, versus for what for many of us are decades later. There was a sight called S.O.S that started with TNG's 6th and DS9's 1st season and though until the End of Enterprise and they allowed anyone to input their opinion on the episodes, and then provided the median and average response and ranked them. By series and by season. The one major caveat is that this would have been primarily people who used usenet and very early WWW. So it's not a reflective sample of the general population of its time. But it's probably the best historical point on early views of an episode. Now with season 6th you get the closest thing to real time reviews by fans right when they watched an episode (for the most part) and even season 5 for example would have ratings that are only a year old in people's mind, versus now what 32 years having passed. Now this isn't a scientific sampling of the public not even remotely close (there was an early joke about the earlier adopters of the internet being people looking for porn and Star Trek fanatics, so take that as a grain of salt). It would have been geared to small segment of society. But it's the best metric we have for real time ranking of season 6 TNG moving forward. And even its earlier seasons data would be far more fresh viewing than what we see through the lens of time today (and decades of time to rethink or adjust our opinions). Looking at these last two episodes. Darmok ranked 5th out of all TNG episodes, and Redemption ranked 35th. Both respectable scores. And its always interesting to see where your own views wildly differ from the average of that group.

Mark Wood

2024-12-13 02:51:34 +0000 UTC

I do too. Its an “A” for me. So meaningful.

Chris S.

2024-12-13 02:48:30 +0000 UTC

Its the most unique language idea I’ve ever seen frankly. Very creative idea.

Chris S.

2024-12-13 02:47:29 +0000 UTC

And Alex - a man of culture, I see.

Pokeysaurus

2024-12-13 02:47:08 +0000 UTC

No worries, Josh! I wouldn’t have subscribed if you guys were just going to glaze every episode. I appreciated that it just didn’t “click” with you, and you’re right about that stupid-ass monster design.

Pokeysaurus

2024-12-13 02:46:45 +0000 UTC

Michael Piller and Ron Moore in the writer’s room. Their sails unfurled. (I tried lol)

Chris S.

2024-12-13 02:46:12 +0000 UTC

I’m also an “A” on this one. Love it. Its ok Josh that you didn’t like it. It can be confusing and drag. But the struggle to understand someone by being put in a situation and having to work together was so meaningful. Dathon is played by Paul Winfield, Captain Terrell in Star Trek 2. I found the metaphoric language so different, creative and fascinating. Buts not an episode for everyone. Its a good first episode of the season to me.

Chris S.

2024-12-13 02:37:13 +0000 UTC

It's not Enemy Mine. it's just about communication. Josh is a major buzzkill for this one, but i guess they arent all bangers for everyone.

Clyde Frog

2024-12-13 02:33:42 +0000 UTC

When I was a kid I hated this episode (because I didn't get it). Now I love it. I think Josh might like it more after a rewatch. It's cerebral, yes. But the idea surrounding communication in this episode is very unique, very Star Trek, and should at minimum give it a C.

Christopher Boutwell

2024-12-13 02:30:03 +0000 UTC

"Darmok" backwards is "komrad," or comrade.

Scott Reeves

2024-12-13 02:29:52 +0000 UTC

This is widely seen as one of the best TNG episodes. Disappointing that you didn't like it. I feel like you didn't give it a chance and you can tell that from what you were saying at the start.

Brian Gentry

2024-12-13 02:25:13 +0000 UTC

This is one of the top ten Star Trek The Next Generation episodes of all time. It oozes with classic Star Trek philosophy and questioning and framing of problems that we have faced or could face. The crux of the story hinges on the idea that this man who's the captain on the ship no matter his life or his ship or his family or his children or his legacy the value that he puts on the effort to bridge the gap between two species is the epitome of valiant and the storytellers trying to tell us that this is what we can look for as a character trait in ourselves in the future and in other cultures that we don't understand. While this is a blending of Arena and Enemy Mine, this episode takes and puts the control into one of the characters as to why they're stranded on that planet. In arena and enemy mine none of the characters had control over their situation. This episode story is an evolution of those two that had come before it. And bumps it up to the sublime.

Michael Nemo

2024-12-13 01:57:23 +0000 UTC

Suggestion: Whenever you guys differ in rating, let the one with the HIGHER rating talk first during the discussion. You guys are friends enough that you are able to influence eachother, and it's happened a few times where you liked an episode more after the other person talked about it, and other times you liked it less after the other person talked about it. So I think you'll generall get more out of episodes by first talking about the positives, starting with the higher grade. Just a suggestion

Andreas Schmitt

2024-12-13 01:52:13 +0000 UTC

And even then he only takes one surprise shot to be able to beam the captain up while the field is down. He didn't intend to start a full fight, he just accepted the risk of THEM turning that into one.

Andreas Schmitt

2024-12-13 01:48:11 +0000 UTC

The moment it truly becomes amazing is when Picard has a full conversation and you realize you understood every word. The show taught you a language without you even realizing.

Andreas Schmitt

2024-12-13 01:46:19 +0000 UTC

Both of the responses here are pretty accurate.

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-13 01:45:10 +0000 UTC

You realize that such jackets exist in military uniform code in most militaries right? :D I've worn one :D (The sweater too)

Andreas Schmitt

2024-12-13 01:42:54 +0000 UTC

Another time where Troi should be able to tell us whats going on immdiately but she's required to be useless as usual so the story can play out.

Alan Thompson

2024-12-13 01:39:24 +0000 UTC

From what I remember, the D team was arguing that a language based on metaphors would be stupid and unrealistic. I hold against this that the episode predicted meme communication which today's youth very much uses to communicate to great effect. So like many a thing, TNG predicted that, like it predicted technological advancements. Also I've heard people argue that even if the concept is sound, it's impossible to evolve such a language since it couldn't be used to explain new experiences or new technology. To that I answer nonsense also, since we obviously create new words and even evolve the meanings of words on our standard languages as well. There was no word for internet or car or spaceship 200 years ago, yet we created one. Any language that has the most basic meanings down can be used to explain further concepts. In fact that's how most people learn langages, by learning the basics and then asking for a new word they need by describing it with existing vocabulary. So unless a linguist provides me with a proof that this kind of language cannot be used to create a fully expressive language I'm calling that nonsense. I have yet to see any solid argument on why this wouldn't be possible. Ineffecient maybe, but on that note let's not even discuss how most of the words and grammar concepts we use in our languages are completely pointless. English does just gine without the word chair needing a gender, slavic languages do just fine without most articles and there's plenty of other examples of completely useless words that make our languages incredibly inefficient for no reason, yet we are able to work with them just fine. Or would anybody argue that cultures that have languages with 15 or even 18 cases would be less capable of space travel than ones using English which only has 4?

Andreas Schmitt

2024-12-13 01:38:33 +0000 UTC

Agreed. Data can do a fast search but he doesn't have the cultural background to know WHAT to search for. Troi is a psychologist, and not just a normal one, but a cross species one. She is educated to council several, if not all, Federation species, and therefore can understand commonalities and differences in cultural backgrounds, communication, expression etc.

Andreas Schmitt

2024-12-13 01:28:53 +0000 UTC

I think the official scale is: S - A personal favorite A - An almost perfect episode but missing what made it a personal favorite B - A banger, but had minor issues C - A normal good episode D - An episode the guys didn't care for, but also didn't hate. One they will forget. E - An episode they consider to be bad

Andreas Schmitt

2024-12-13 01:25:53 +0000 UTC

S - one of their favorites A - great episode B - good episode C - okay episode D - not enjoyable E - garbage

Doug

2024-12-13 01:15:14 +0000 UTC

Great episode

Anthony MacEwan

2024-12-13 01:12:09 +0000 UTC

Who is to say that their language didn’t start as syntax based but evolved into one based in metaphor?

Column Meanie

2024-12-13 00:58:22 +0000 UTC

When you rate episodes, what exactly is your scale? When I think of D tier, I usually have serious objections with an episode. The way you (Josh) were talking about it sounded like C tier or maybe B tier for me.

Evan Guthrie

2024-12-13 00:58:18 +0000 UTC

I think Troi would be helpful in trying to decipher a language because she understands social nuances, symbolic meanings, in a way that Data just can not, and that would be especially useful in trying to understand this form of language. But yeah what they showed...anyone who has ever tried different word combinations to refine a Google search could do it. Lol

Greg Quinn

2024-12-13 00:51:15 +0000 UTC

Alex and Josh, watching Darmok, their eyes open wide.

startrekiborg

2024-12-13 00:36:47 +0000 UTC

I don't generally watch this full episode, when I want to enjoy this again I generally watch 3 scenes: First fight with the beast, the fireside chat, and Picard "haling the Tamarian vessel" at the end. Frankly those are S+ scenes and almost everything else in the episode is probably a C+ at best (With some truly D- bits: I mean seriously... Data needs Troi to do computer searches? LMAO) EDIT: lol, Alex just pointed out 2 of those 3 scenes in his best bits summary EDIT2: On the matter of the Patron S-Tier ranking... Come back in 10 years and watch this one again.

Matt Newmark

2024-12-13 00:19:13 +0000 UTC

I love this episode.

Gavin Scott

2024-12-13 00:01:40 +0000 UTC

i suppose for me the reason it S tier, is i spent a lot of time as a hobby trying to learn other languages, i failed a lot lol, so i feel Picard frustration and triumph at learning it, also go to youtube and search: "TNGs Darmok but the alien meme language has subtitles", for full translation

Dark Kronis

2024-12-12 23:58:15 +0000 UTC

HAHAHAHAHA Alex just said "SHOOT HIM" in Tamarian!

Matt Newmark

2024-12-12 23:50:12 +0000 UTC

Sorry this episode didn't resonate for you Josh, but I will add my voice to the chorus of praise for this one. I am a person who loves language and symbolism and metaphor, so the subject matter really works for me here, and I find it very poignant that someone (the alien captain) would go that far just to try and make a connection. People from two different worlds with good intentions trying to relate to one another is something I find hopeful and heartwarming, and wish would happen more often. Also, Patrick Stewart's performance is excellent. That being said, this episode is a bit of a slow burn and I do think there should have been a bit more focus on Picard and less on Riker; I cared more about the planet stuff than the Enterprise drama. Probably not one of my absolute favourites, but definitely an episode I enjoy and think is worth watching, though I get why it doesn't work for everyone.

Ryan Caulfield

2024-12-12 23:25:12 +0000 UTC

Was it just me or did it look like Josh was about to fall asleep even BEFORE the episode started! Maybe it’s those new comfy chairs haha…this episode is probably not the best to watch if tired since there is A LOT of talking and little action, but then again the episode literally about communication!

Andrewski 2112

2024-12-12 23:24:44 +0000 UTC

It must have happened to ancient modern humans as they were very migratory before the development of agriculture.

Paul Rymer

2024-12-12 23:16:19 +0000 UTC

It’s interesting when you don’t agree. Paul Winfield was magnificent as Dathan. This is one of those episodes that the hive mind doesn’t allow you to dislike, so good luck Josh! I prefer several other episodes this season, and I was bored by it as a kid, but appreciate it more now.

Paul Rymer

2024-12-12 23:13:58 +0000 UTC

best thing about this episode is the second time you watch you know exactly what they are saying

Dark Kronis

2024-12-12 23:08:48 +0000 UTC

Me too! The episode always gets me. I'll say it again. Really love that Alex and Josh just give their honest opinion.

PIG

2024-12-12 23:07:40 +0000 UTC

But how could you know if it wouldn't work for a technologically sophisticated society? You're observing it from your point of view. More than that, from your entire way of forming thoughts, processing information, in reality how you perceive the world. It is so strong a bias that such a radically different approach would seem ludicrous. I am not saying this exact way of forming thought would work or not, only advocating that there might be a drastically different way of perceiving reality and communicating that would work equally well and maybe even better than our own.

Marko

2024-12-12 23:01:57 +0000 UTC

I love this one, one of my faves of s5. But i feel it could be divisive, I used watch TNG with my mum and she hated this one 🤷‍♂️

Darren Seal

2024-12-12 22:59:56 +0000 UTC

Damn. Really wish you’d both come away loving this episode. It was a joy watching the moment when Alex “got” it. If you’re ever motivated to, Josh, give it another looksy. There are times it’s taken me two or three viewings of movies or shows to appreciate what something is trying to say. You’re awesome, bro. LLAP 🖖

Raphael Gaytan

2024-12-12 22:58:06 +0000 UTC

To be fair to Riker, the last time an alien race beamed Picard right off the bridge, they assimilated him into their hive mind and used him to destroy 39 ships killing 11,000 people. And their hostile intentions were clearly communicated. Riker can't communicate with the Children of Tama (their name for their race), and is gonna be fighting some emotional flashbacks/PTSD from the events of BOBW. As the first officer whose job it is to ensure the safety of his captain, his responses to the situation would be a lot different than as the actual captain with a missing crewman. You'd see something more like Season 3 "The Enemy."

Sherpa Jones

2024-12-12 22:51:45 +0000 UTC

Responding to an S being an extra A, I agree. Most of the brilliant TNG episodes are an A, while S are an upper echelons of those. A rarefied air. For me there are only 10-12 episodes in the entire TNG with that status, with this one being one of them.

Marko

2024-12-12 22:43:33 +0000 UTC

That’s my third favorite 🤣

Phil Ken Sebben

2024-12-12 22:36:47 +0000 UTC

I accept that no matter what I write there will always be a nit picker to find the slightest error....... Yes. The translator was able to make partial sense of the words. You win.

James Baloun

2024-12-12 22:29:03 +0000 UTC

I don't think this episode makes Riker look stupid or aggressive at all. He resists attacking them for as long as he thinks he can. In the meantime he tries three other things: sending a shuttle down, figuring out a way to use the transporter, and having Data and Troi work on figuring out a way to communicate. All he knew was that these people had abducted the captain and the captain was under attack by something. If anything, Riker shows some restraint in not immediately considering this a hostile act.

Steven Linden

2024-12-12 22:27:09 +0000 UTC

While they're both 3 apart, I think this A vs D feels like a bigger gap to me because isn't an S basically an A that happened to make you feel something special/extra?

Forbidden Donut

2024-12-12 22:22:33 +0000 UTC

I consider this episode to be one of the top 5 episodes of TNG ever. So yeah. I gave the previous episode an A, and this episode gets the S++. But again, this was a "Tin Man" situation, where the episode was obviously a great episode as a piece of science fiction, let alone a piece of Star Trek, but based on your take on Tin Man and other heavily science fiction episodes, I didn't think you guys would appreciate as much as I felt you should. I didn't think you'd give it a D, but I figured it'd be a C, maybe a B, especially after you gave the previous episode such a high rating. So I'm pleased that at least one of you gave it an A. It's still one of the top 5 Next Generation episodes in my opinion. (Three of the others are Best of Both Worlds 1 and 2, and Yesterday's Enterprise. There's still one more to come... and it's another science fiction heavy episode, so I'm prepared to be disappointed by your ratings on that one too.)

John

2024-12-12 22:08:54 +0000 UTC

Love this episode.

Outis

2024-12-12 22:06:47 +0000 UTC

the universal translator worked, hence the english bits, but the translator could not understand the contexy of a species that spoke in metaphors

Scarpad’s Domain

2024-12-12 22:05:17 +0000 UTC

Also, an obligatory: Josh, his takes, when the walls fell. lol

Forbidden Donut

2024-12-12 22:03:45 +0000 UTC

I interpret Riker's actions from the POV of all he knows is dude with two knives, without warning or agreement, beams himself and Picard down there, and now his crew won't let them interfere or even watch what's happening, and then later on there's some beast entering the picture as well, and now the other guys' captain is dying. I'm pretty sure Riker states to the senior staff that he wants to talk their way out of it, but with communication being so difficult that seems unlikely, and they already tried a 'technobabble' solution that didn't work, so with a ticking clock of Picard possibly being killed, he needs a violent backup plan, and he never seems to get an opportunity to talk, so when the time comes, he pulls the trigger on a violent action that isn't even meant to kill, just to disable their technology that prevents beaming. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems understandable to me?

Forbidden Donut

2024-12-12 21:41:27 +0000 UTC

Big part of Riker's job is to ensure the safety of his Captain. So he's trying to not get court-martialled.

Nolan

2024-12-12 21:38:39 +0000 UTC

This episode answers the question, what happens when the Universal Translator does not work? What a luxury to be disappointed by such an episode. The Epic of Gilgamesh is literally one of if not the oldest story on planet Earth. I really appreciate this episode as it puts us in perspective. For all the super sci-fi we still live in this Universe and we are a product of our past. Note that this is not the only Star Trek episode to dive in super deep on various topics that I humbly suggest are worth the time. Try to imagine modern humans meeting an alien species and we have no clue what they are saying.

James Baloun

2024-12-12 21:33:49 +0000 UTC

Alex: Sokath, his eyes uncovered! Josh: Shaka, when the walls fell. I mean, when you learn a new language, you start with limited phrases, using repitition to learn. Plus "How does the tamarian's language work realistically?" Well, how do these work? 😉🙃🤡😲👻☠😱🖖🖕🏻 or anytime someone posts a wordless gif or image from a show or movie to represent their intent. Heck, I'd argue the Tamarians language is BETTER at conveying meaning, once one understands it, than these. It's like when teens descided a message ending in a period was a bad sign. Wtf? Also, just to clear up a minor confusion, I believe this species planet is called Tama, the the moniker of "Children of Tama" which is probably how they refer to themselves, is like calling humans "Children of Earth," as in, we are decended from this planet, birthed here, but not literal children.

Nolan

2024-12-12 21:31:30 +0000 UTC

Having watched this again its episodes like this with emotional weight is why i'm a trek fan, it was shows like this that continued the legacy of Roddenberry, and all involved in trek thru the years 1966-2005

Scarpad’s Domain

2024-12-12 21:19:45 +0000 UTC

Yes you are.

Marko

2024-12-12 21:14:45 +0000 UTC

As an amateur linguist, this one hit home for me. Brilliant 👏 👏 👏

Michael Metrick

2024-12-12 21:10:21 +0000 UTC

I do notice a tendacy where if the duo really love an episode A or S quality the following Episode usually get nailed by one or both if its anything less than S Tier i mean they started off the reaction by sying nothing could top Redemption 2 and they feel sorry for episode 2, its a hard hill to climb

Scarpad’s Domain

2024-12-12 21:03:53 +0000 UTC

We see the Debut of Picard's uniform jacket in this one!!!!

Alexandra Shepiro

2024-12-12 21:02:08 +0000 UTC

I'll pay devil's advocate this is basically Enemy Mine but it's done so well

Scarpad’s Domain

2024-12-12 20:59:52 +0000 UTC

Sorry you destroyed my childhood i hope your proud ... holding Breath... Lol

Scarpad’s Domain

2024-12-12 20:57:56 +0000 UTC

Oh..one of the Best!!!!

Alexandra Shepiro

2024-12-12 20:53:46 +0000 UTC

This episode is a B for me, its good, but more enjoyment from it has come from me and my fellow nerd friends incorporating the lines into our conversations, or trying out new ones based on our our historical classic literature. It is also responsible for one of my favorite shirts that I own; https://ibb.co/kx8WyRL

Tristan Rose

2024-12-12 20:49:47 +0000 UTC

One of the best episodes of TNG communication is what Roddenberry’s Trek is all about.

General Trelane

2024-12-12 20:47:34 +0000 UTC

%100. Don't get me wrong, I still really enjoy the reactions because it provides me with the opportunity to perceive the episodes I've watched a hundred times from new angles. Creates a new layer of enjoyment.

valen

2024-12-12 20:12:04 +0000 UTC

Yeah I agree....sure the captain wasn't dangerous but the big energy/Predator/dinosaur thing clearly was and Riker articulated that and I'm kinda surprised Alex and Josh missed that in criticizing Riker.

Greg Quinn

2024-12-12 19:56:33 +0000 UTC

I had a hunch that Alex would like it and Josh not. And I know for quite some time now that Alex is more in my alley regarding Star Trek.

Sam Langanke

2024-12-12 19:54:54 +0000 UTC

I didn’t come to appreciate this episode until RLM had a discussion on it. I do like it now, it’s the meme style that makes me wonder about where our own society is going with slang and new language. Being some that writes poetry, I see it all the time in the works of my contemporaries.

Patrick Smith

2024-12-12 19:37:30 +0000 UTC

Definitely don't see it as a D although I never loved it as much as many do. I suspect hjs rating might increase to a C on reflection.

Greg Quinn

2024-12-12 19:33:58 +0000 UTC

Judging only on execution, I'd give this a B. But for me, it's an S. It's an episode that really defines TNG, and it's hard to imagine any other show pulling something like this off. Dealing with language, communication, and diplomacy, it shows that overcoming differences is hard, but possible. Riker and especially Worf do come across a bit too aggressive however.

Zugster

2024-12-12 19:33:30 +0000 UTC

I would argue there’s plenty more science fiction to the show than “technobabble and ships”

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 19:26:42 +0000 UTC

Oh no, I’m called out 😳

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 19:25:36 +0000 UTC

I love it, but it’s a polarizing episode. One A and one D is about in line with the fandom.

Richard Finch

2024-12-12 19:20:38 +0000 UTC

I was in a superb mood actually, we just watched Redemption II. I do agree the second half is better though

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 19:19:32 +0000 UTC

Well, the problem with River is that she is a character on Firefly, so that is not relavent right now /jk

Deep Red

2024-12-12 19:15:05 +0000 UTC

I believe I know what you're referring to, and I agree.

Marko

2024-12-12 19:13:35 +0000 UTC

Trivia: Mike Stoklas over at Red Letter Media bought the Beast costume. He showed it off during one of his TNG reviews. IIRC Darmok was one of his top 10 TNG episodes.

Richard Finch

2024-12-12 19:10:45 +0000 UTC

Patrick Stewart was probably feeling chilly on set one day.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 19:10:27 +0000 UTC

Even if you don’t like the first half much, to me seeing Picard and Dathon learn to understand each other to the point where Picard can have a quick conversation with the other crew makes it all worth it and raises the score. I feel like Josh was not in a great mood when the episode started and it carried on to affect the rating. But, we can’t make him watch it again for the first time, so for now it’s just Shaka when the walls fell.

Brian Moore

2024-12-12 19:10:26 +0000 UTC

Yep. An entire episode as allegory of the Epic of Gilgamesh in a scifi setting. It's the sort of thing that is flat when your a kid, but amazing when you're an adult.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 19:08:21 +0000 UTC

Yes that is fair. But what is also fair is the reaction to it. Like the third law of motion, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sorry, I just don't care, okay, but sorry, we also just don't care about the way you gave a low mark to the one of the franchise's best, in the eyes of the vast majority of the fanbase. And we're going to call you out on it.

Marko

2024-12-12 19:01:31 +0000 UTC

I have more info for my thesis and it’s not sex-related, but a lot of it is yet to come. Should also say I think Kirk is a dick too.

John M.

2024-12-12 18:56:14 +0000 UTC

Lol, that would be fun!

Marko

2024-12-12 18:53:02 +0000 UTC

And one of the best (and deservingly so) episodes of Trek ever, as far as I am concerned.

Marko

2024-12-12 18:48:18 +0000 UTC

I'll be honest, this episode to me as a kid was a dud. However as an adult I felt a better appreciation for the episode. That's what I love about Star Trek, it's not about space battles and conquest. It's about learning and understanding to better or selves as a people.

Christopher Dorn

2024-12-12 18:47:02 +0000 UTC

Not really because you guys never really enjoy the scifi aspects of the episodes. You hate techno babble, you ignore the ships and the prospect of understanding between two species bores you. I think it's pretty self-evident.

valen

2024-12-12 18:46:05 +0000 UTC

There are a lot of episodes that I'm excited for you to see, because I know how much I enjoyed them, and how much the fandom does too. Then, you have the nerve to have your own opinion and not like it?? How dare you!

Turtleboy

2024-12-12 18:43:53 +0000 UTC

I love how the new set is looking!

Ron Hubbard Jr

2024-12-12 18:41:19 +0000 UTC

You’re correct. It’s not good in every case.

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 18:40:22 +0000 UTC

I don't -- and it's why I keep watching :)

Matthew Ganz

2024-12-12 18:35:01 +0000 UTC

Agreed. One of the five most overrated TREK episodes ever, as far as I'm concerned.

Max Shenk

2024-12-12 18:34:00 +0000 UTC

Uh, no. I don't like it because it was a good idea stretched thin. Doesn't endless blather about things you dislike make you dislike them more, or is that strictly something that happens in MY head?

Max Shenk

2024-12-12 18:32:34 +0000 UTC

I can definitely see it Josh's way as I was much like that when this episode first aired. There is another one, later this season, that was like that for me too (I imagine most know what I am referring to), but now like this one are among the best that TNG did.

Ron Hubbard Jr

2024-12-12 18:30:59 +0000 UTC

So you hate it just to be different?

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:30:31 +0000 UTC

@Target Audience That's how all the Worf/Klingon stuff feels to me, up to but not including "Redemption."

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:29:18 +0000 UTC

Interesting. I think there was a missed opportunity here to discuss memes. The guys correctly assumed based on the comments there would be a lot of memes that come from this episode (there are). But it’s a bit deeper than that. This is an episode ABOUT memes…before anyone called them that. Picard says they communicate in metaphor but it’s more accurate to say this culture communicates in memes. Substitute “Shaka when the walls fell” to “Picard his face in his palms” as an example

Mister Hope

2024-12-12 18:29:17 +0000 UTC

@Matthew Ganz Anyone who watches this channel and expects an echo chamber is in for disappointment.

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:28:04 +0000 UTC

Agreed Andreas. A well written description of my own thoughts on, and the take away from this episode.

Chris

2024-12-12 18:26:25 +0000 UTC

Haven't watched the reaction yet, but... based on memory, I rank it D tier. This is inexplicably a fanboy favorite, and has been memed endlessly. I might like it more if I wasn't so sick of hearing about how fckuing great it was.

Max Shenk

2024-12-12 18:26:23 +0000 UTC

Arses, in winter! Brrrr

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:26:20 +0000 UTC

I was a bit like Josh when this came out. I probably would have given it a C. But, it wasn't long until I understood this episode more and that impression went up. It's among the best for me. A definite S.

Ron Hubbard Jr

2024-12-12 18:25:25 +0000 UTC

I do not believe Cmdr. Riker is a "dick" He merely has one, and isn't afraid to use it.

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:24:54 +0000 UTC

A couple of big names as guest stars in this one. Paul Winfield (Captain Terrell in ST: Wrath of Khan) as Dathon and Ashley Judd as Ensign Lefler (in engineering with LaForge).

Ron Hubbard Jr

2024-12-12 18:23:09 +0000 UTC

A lot of us DO realize it. That's why we're here!

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:22:48 +0000 UTC

Needed just to get it dirty.

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:21:43 +0000 UTC

Hahahaha whenever Aaron comments you just KNOW Marvel is getting brought up 🤣

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 18:20:57 +0000 UTC

I get what most people like about this episode. On the first watch, it does feel great and rewarding to finally get what the guy is saying. And I had an appreciation of Picard’s diplomacy. But nothing in me has ever wanted to rewatch this episode. So it does fall short for me.

Sainjl

2024-12-12 18:18:45 +0000 UTC

Patrons, their faces wet. Josh on the ocean. Alex and Patrons at Tanagra.

Ricky

2024-12-12 18:18:14 +0000 UTC

We had a couple S & C last season which is also 3 grades apart.

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 18:17:19 +0000 UTC

Watching the guys' reactions the whole time, I was more surprised by the A than the D. Glad Alex came around on it at least.

Steve Boshear

2024-12-12 18:16:18 +0000 UTC

Is this the biggest divide in your rating to date? One of you giving a D, the other an A. By the way, I agree it's a D. .... C, at best.

Tom Occhipinti

2024-12-12 18:15:34 +0000 UTC

TBH I'm happy when you guys come in with a hot take about a beloved episode. A lot of this stuff I've just loved for 30 years without ever re-evaluating those beliefs, as does most of the random. I'm happy to be given the opportunity to rationalize those beliefs with myself.

EnigmaticPenguin

2024-12-12 18:14:33 +0000 UTC

Second.

Steve Boshear

2024-12-12 18:14:02 +0000 UTC

I don't like the jacket. What's wrong with a standard uniform??

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:13:43 +0000 UTC

Exactly, but when you were a kid. In time you mature and appreciate the really important aspects of the story. You don't need a monster to be designed better to make you like the episode more.

Marko

2024-12-12 18:13:16 +0000 UTC

She had multiple leading roles in major hollywood productions. Not actually a TV actor.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 18:10:49 +0000 UTC

Thanks Josh for your honesty and thoughts on the episode. Even though you're TOTALLY WRONG!! J/K of course. Another example of the value of sharing this show with you guys. Fresh perspectives that can make you think. I now understand why someone might not like this episode just as I previously gained appreciation for episodes I didn't care for.

Chris Mickelson

2024-12-12 18:10:06 +0000 UTC

That's why they do it lol :)

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 18:08:47 +0000 UTC

Same. As a kid this was flatter for me. As a grownup, its easily recognizable as one of the best episodes of the franchise.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 18:07:00 +0000 UTC

@Target Audience That is true of many different characters in many different fictional universes.

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:06:35 +0000 UTC

Josh's D is his wife's problem.

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:05:24 +0000 UTC

It holds up. When I was a kid a lot of it went over my head, I appreciate it more as an adult, especially after learning about the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Sumerians. An entire episode as analogy of one of humanities most ancient stories cast in a science fiction context? S tier. The writer is extremely thoughtful.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 18:04:51 +0000 UTC

@Column Meanie Exactly. It was made very clear, the Tamarians have a very different view of things. They do not think of themselves or each other as we do. "Imagery is everything"

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:04:11 +0000 UTC

Alex, his W taken.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 18:02:27 +0000 UTC

Broken record is right twice a day!….wait -Alex

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 18:02:01 +0000 UTC

Same, I thought for sure he was kidding. :( lol

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 18:01:15 +0000 UTC

It will grow on Josh. Give it time.

Jovet

2024-12-12 18:00:01 +0000 UTC

His arse, fisted

Jovet

2024-12-12 17:59:11 +0000 UTC

Agreed. One of the top episodes. The pattern I've noticed with Josh is that he wants a clear declaration of the goal and then the clear process of getting there, like a Marvel movie. He seems to have little patience with the gradual discovery and unveiling of the story. This episode deals with metaphor from an alien context and the Epic of Gilgamesh as metaphor for the entire episode...it was never going to be a simplistic marvel type story.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 17:56:32 +0000 UTC

Wow.... I understand different opinions and everything, but talk about THE fumble on your part with this one. This, in my opinion of course, is a top 5 episode of this show and one of the very best of the entire Star Trek lore. Maybe there should be a variant of "Shaka, when the walls fell" but for a very big failure to "Josh, when he gave a D".

Marko

2024-12-12 17:56:09 +0000 UTC

This is one of the very best episodes. The inverse trend continues lol. Alex hits the mark again.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 17:55:19 +0000 UTC

So many "popular and amazing" TV series and movies out there that you could not pay me enough to watch them.

thebeefmaster

2024-12-12 17:41:26 +0000 UTC

I weep when watching this one. It's so intense.

Angelaina Marie

2024-12-12 17:41:04 +0000 UTC

I seem to remember someone from the production crews saying in the 1990s that Picard's red jacket cost Production something like $3,000. I can't find confirmation of that online anywhere. But it was either $3,000 .... or perhaps $5,000. But I think $3,000. Just saying.

Tom Occhipinti

2024-12-12 17:35:31 +0000 UTC

The debut of the Captain's jacket!

Ron Hubbard Jr

2024-12-12 17:33:00 +0000 UTC

I was 34 when this first aired and I had been a Trekker since 1966. I was initially put off and frustrated by the repetitive dialog and the length of time it was taking to understand what Dathon was trying to communicate. Upon subsequent viewings, I easily recognized the sheer brilliance of the episode's premise. This episode is an example of what sets Star Trek apart from nearly all other space-based science fiction.

thebeefmaster

2024-12-12 17:30:26 +0000 UTC

Bingo

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 17:30:15 +0000 UTC

I'm only partway through, but I just heard the moment of confusion about "children." What was said is that the race calls themselves "The Children of Tamar." Like we might call ourselves "The Children of Earth" if we wanted to be dramatic about everything like them.

Steve Boshear

2024-12-12 17:29:54 +0000 UTC

Nope. The Final Sacrifice.

KatWithAttitude

2024-12-12 17:28:41 +0000 UTC

18:10 It's a metaphor. Children of Tama, just like sometimes people are described as Children of God.

Jovet

2024-12-12 17:28:27 +0000 UTC

I do like this one but sometimes, enjoying a movie or episode comes down to, "Sorry, I just don't care." Just yesterday I discussed that same idea with a friend who had been raving about the new Shogun series. It got rave reviews, it won awards, the scale is epic... but I just couldn't get myself to care once I watched it. I'm not interested in what's happening. I can appreciate the scale and authenticity of the show. But it bored me.

Joe Concepts

2024-12-12 17:26:26 +0000 UTC

Props for the Enemy Mine reference. As a kid I used to get this episode confused with that movie in my head.

Steve Boshear

2024-12-12 17:24:54 +0000 UTC

Yes

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 17:20:44 +0000 UTC

Alex Green Eyed. Picards Fit with new Cow. Lamb underneath. Alex Green Eyed. Josh with memory of Rangers. Alex with same comment right after. Josh with Jim in Office looks to Soul taker.

A G

2024-12-12 17:20:11 +0000 UTC

The aliens speak english like any other race because of the universal translator. But translation is simply a matter of language...the Tamarians communicate as they do as a result of their own conceptualization. Obviously translation software can't do anything about that.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 17:20:10 +0000 UTC

Here's what makes the episode brilliant for me: The entire time you have no understanding and everything sounds jibberish. Then by the end of the episode, PIcard stands on the bridge, talking complete nonsense, and you understand every word he's saying. That journey you go on with Picard, that understanding you have at the end, going "Woa, I understood what he said" is what makes this episode absolutely incredible. It stands for the virtue of patience, of trying to understand the other person's point of view. The very essense of Star Fleet's mission. That's why it is regarded as one of the best Star Trek episodes of all time. S-Tier and in my Top 10 of Star Trek episodes across the entire franchise. (PS: In regards to you not liking Riker attacking... he didn't attack to fight them. He just wanted to knock out the scattering field because Picard was about to die, and their captain had already been mortally wounded. It was the other side that shot back in earnest. Riker clearly said "I want ONE shot to take out the scattering field and beam the captain back". He had no intention to fight beyond that. It was the other side that escalated. So I don't understand why you think Riker was overly aggressive here. He initially tried to communicate, to go down with a shuttle, to beam Picard through the field... this was his last option. What was he supposed to do? Watch Picard die?)

Andreas Schmitt

2024-12-12 17:19:46 +0000 UTC

Personally, I don't get making this an S or considering it like top ten of the franchise. That's a bit much. I think that A is just about right.

Joe Concepts

2024-12-12 17:19:32 +0000 UTC

Did anyone point out that Dathon is played by Captain Clark Terrell of Star Trek II?

Ross Townsend

2024-12-12 17:19:30 +0000 UTC

This is what I love about Star Trek - it's different things to different people, and that's part of its strength. Props to Josh for articulating his viewpoints well, and looking forward to the next reaction..!

The Ninth Doctor

2024-12-12 17:16:48 +0000 UTC

The TNG reset switch. Honestly, any of the characters could be horribly injured or tortured or psychologically mindfucked...but they'll be back next episode playing Sherlock Holmes on the holodeck like nothing happened.

Aaron Wells

2024-12-12 17:16:21 +0000 UTC

Let me guess: Mr. B Natural?

David Wayne Fox

2024-12-12 17:15:31 +0000 UTC

She became a big star in the late 90s. I saw her movie "Double Jeopardy" in the theater in 1999. She was also in "Heat" and a few other films and was the Hollywood "it girl" for a while. Then she went crazy.

Darin Wagner

2024-12-12 17:10:18 +0000 UTC

Petition to force Josh to write the grade of "Josh at Darmok" for any future episodes he rates D.

Teek

2024-12-12 17:02:54 +0000 UTC

I remember when I was a teenager in high school when this came out, I felt like Josh, but my freshman English teacher loved it. I grew to appreciate it and understand its greatness. It is certainly a big contrast to other episodes, including Redemption, so it's a bit of an adjustment.

Joshua Langweil

2024-12-12 16:53:29 +0000 UTC

Funny how much you can learn without two reactors saying a word. There was a point there where Josh looked like, "Yep, this is an episode we're watching," and Alex looked like "Let's see where they're going with this."

Joe Concepts

2024-12-12 16:49:04 +0000 UTC

Riker may have figured out that the other captain wasn't a threat, but after the giant violent thing started attacking he knew it wasn't safe for Picard. "Let's just sit around and wait" isn't Riker's style, and I don't know if even Picard would've acted different.

Joe Concepts

2024-12-12 16:47:06 +0000 UTC

Neither of us hated Doomsday Machine or this episode.

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 16:44:40 +0000 UTC

I thought the D was a joke at first... but hey, you're coming into it fresh and that's your honest take on it. I will say I don't remember being bowled over by this episode the first time I saw it, but it has definitely improved for with repeated viewings. I would say for me over the years it has gone from a B to an S.

David Wayne Fox

2024-12-12 16:44:24 +0000 UTC

It does seem one or two of the guys will hate episodes that many feel classic, (doomsday machine) and love some fine mediocre at best, my guess they'll probably gush at Discovery

Scarpad’s Domain

2024-12-12 16:43:16 +0000 UTC

https://i.imgur.com/c2meXJO.mp4

TomEmilioDavies

2024-12-12 16:32:30 +0000 UTC

It's because they focus on the way the episode is told/conveyed instead of the story and the sci-fi element. They're not really scifi fans tbh.

valen

2024-12-12 16:28:56 +0000 UTC

Perfect!

Jonathan Llyr

2024-12-12 16:27:55 +0000 UTC

I get the grade. When I first saw this episode at the cynical age of 16 I didn’t get it either and would have given it a similar grade. It’s only after repeated viewings that I began to appreciate it for its brilliance.

Column Meanie

2024-12-12 16:25:33 +0000 UTC

What's wrong with River in this episode? He did what any first officer should've done to protect his captain even though it was counter productive.

valen

2024-12-12 16:24:35 +0000 UTC

It’s not ridiculous if they understand one another. The “problem” comes up when the try to communicate with outsiders.

Column Meanie

2024-12-12 16:23:03 +0000 UTC

I cannot agree with you more.

valen

2024-12-12 16:22:13 +0000 UTC

It's one of my top rewatched episodes for sure. I love it more every time!

valen

2024-12-12 16:21:36 +0000 UTC

You’re correct that while I can appreciate that the story is very interesting, it still needs to entertain me as a TV episode. I don’t think that has anything to do with science fiction though it applies all genres. I think people just say “you don’t get science fiction” as an easy way out to explain why I don’t like it

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 16:18:57 +0000 UTC

Josh react Darmok Shaka when the walls fell. I respect the personal judgements you two give and totally understand that one might like what others do not.. that said, it's pretty obvious Josh doesn't like/perceive SCIENCE FICTION like most of us do. You guys weigh the episodes a lot more from the perspective of a director. The quality of the shots, the feelings they convey, the lighting, the set etc. I can respect that for sure but the magic of sci-fi comes from the deep meaning of the story. Not only that but what should carry the most weight in judging the quality of an episode should always be the story. The way it is told should carry less weight to be honest. The fact that acting and plays and theatre exists is to teach people through stories. You are a civilization meeting another civilization for the first time (2nd time here but first time understanding each other). The thrill of learning from each other is really moving to some people. There's also the very real danger of misunderstanding and we all know that misunderstandings can very easily lead to wars and a lot of deaths. This is what really adds weight to the events in this episode. The meeting of two completely different thinking civilizations and the hardship they go through to create a connection!!! This is magical and inspiring. Not to mention the creativity of a civilization speaking through metaphor... This episode is EASILY in my all time top 5 of all star trek. NOT TO MENTION that how the Tamarians communicate with each other is LITERALLY like memes! This is a meme civilization and this episode has also created many memes. Also the fact that you can understand some of the words but not their meaning.. I attribute this to the universal translator working partially but not completely.

valen

2024-12-12 16:04:47 +0000 UTC

I meant disagree with. As in they wouldn't follow why you gave it a "D" -- I don't think anyone is mad about your rating -- surprised I think is a better term. Honestly, I expected Alex would give this episode a much lower rating than you, I thought you might be split like a C for Alex and a B for you. But I never expected a D for either of you. That's not to say you shouldn't have your own opinions -- It's why I (and so many others) value both of your takes -- it's just very surprising.

Matthew Ganz

2024-12-12 16:02:55 +0000 UTC

D? Picard, his face palmed.

TomEmilioDavies

2024-12-12 16:01:02 +0000 UTC

I love The Bonding so I’m in agreement with them on that.

Jonathan Llyr

2024-12-12 15:59:18 +0000 UTC

This was my first Star Trek episode I watched 10 years ago and its my favorite TNG episode. Super interesting to see Alex like it but Josh not. It's a really great episode for rewatching because suddenly most of the stuff they say earlier in the episode makes total sense.

Doug

2024-12-12 15:58:21 +0000 UTC

I would give this episode high marks (either A or S). It does hinge on whether interspecies communication is interesting to you. I like linguistics so it's interesting to me, and has gotten even more relevant with the rise of memes (another language based on metaphor). Plus I don't know how you can't love the lead alien actor - Paul Winfield I think? - always gives memorable performances.

Kristina Weber

2024-12-12 15:58:20 +0000 UTC

She really was never a big enough star for someone to be expected to recognize her. I've never seen her in anything else other than TNG. And I doubt they followed the Harvey Weinstein case that closely.

Jeffrey

2024-12-12 15:49:19 +0000 UTC

Ah, never thought of it that way, but I totally get it. Might have something to do with the overall inconsistency of the "back on the enterprise" plot that is present in a lot of episodes. Often that B-story only exists to generate tension or a threat

Deep Red

2024-12-12 15:47:39 +0000 UTC

Nah. I can see how the episode just doesn't fit for some people. Their rating of The Bonding is the craziest thing I've seen.

Jeffrey

2024-12-12 15:45:45 +0000 UTC

It holds up. Man does it hold up!

Jonathan Llyr

2024-12-12 15:45:20 +0000 UTC

To expand a little bit - what I love so much about it is the philosophical issues behind communication, and how much it fits into the ethical mission of Star Fleet to "seek out new worlds". The universal Translator is a horribly silly, necessary plot device to have, and an episode where it doesn't magically allow perfect communication between races is refreshing. It is a S because I love that part of it. If I were grading objectively, not subjectively, I'd probably give it a B for how big a plot hole their language actually is. But since that giant plot hole is the only thing that allows for the exploration of communication, it doesn't matter to my subjective rating

Jeffrey

2024-12-12 15:41:44 +0000 UTC

Whoa. This is generally regarded as one of the greatest episodes of all time. Easily in top five lists everywhere. Maybe it doesn't hold up? I dunno.

Turtleboy

2024-12-12 15:40:54 +0000 UTC

I've mentioned a time or two that I'm also a Mystery Science Theater 3000 fan. There is one wildly popular episode that I don't especially care for. I didn't get online until 2001, so I was stunned when I saw how highly that particular episode was rated. I wondered if maybe I was wrong or missed something about it, so I watched it a couple times again. The verdict? Nope. Still don't care for it.

KatWithAttitude

2024-12-12 15:39:03 +0000 UTC

One of the greatest episodes in Star Trek history. Patrick Stewart telling the tale of Gilgamesh is one of the single greatest moments in Trek history. This is what Star Trek is. It’s what it’s all about. A “D” score is as incomprehensible to me as the alien language was to the Enterprise crew at the beginning of the episode. Wow. That grade is the craziest thing I’ve yet seen in any of your reactions. And disappointing.

Jonathan Llyr

2024-12-12 15:35:40 +0000 UTC

I don't think metaphor communication is ridiculous, only if that's the only way they can communicate, exclusively by metaphor can't work. Not for a technologically sophisticated society.

Paul

2024-12-12 15:32:14 +0000 UTC

For anyone who complains about the idea of communicating in metaphor as being ridiculous, we do it all the time with memes and gifs. But just like Troi said, without the context it has no meaning.

Column Meanie

2024-12-12 15:30:17 +0000 UTC

There seems to be 2 sides of his character. Riker and then Number 1. Riker is consistently well written and acted, and then number 1 just does whatever the plot needs to move forward.

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 15:27:33 +0000 UTC

They got the mold for the salt vampire recently and recreated one.

tyranusfan

2024-12-12 15:23:02 +0000 UTC

Kind of like trying to communicate with a humpback whale. I think this is likely quite accurate when it comes to probable communication difficulties with many alien species. This is exactly the type of thing that Star Trek was meant to tackle. The number of ways to communicate, from one side of the universe to the other, must be close to infinite. I would guess that there are differences so vast that they would make this look like child's play. The universal translator is a nifty device for the purposes of this show, but I would imagine such a device would have a very limited real-world use.

thebeefmaster

2024-12-12 15:20:33 +0000 UTC

Apologies for hopping in twice, but had to check out IMDB just because of all the talk about where it places for fans. So 13th at the moment. The episodes you've seen that are above it are Best of Both Worlds, Yesterday's Enterprise, The Measure of a Man and Q Who. If you pull in TOS, it ranks behind Edge of Forever, Mirror Mirror and Balance of Terror. So yeah, well-loved is an understatement. (I hate the most popular Game of Thrones episode and love the least popular Breaking Bad episode, so I feel your pain.)

John M.

2024-12-12 15:16:13 +0000 UTC

This episode is one of my five favorite of all TNG, and I'm not mad at Josh's D. Different people like different things that Trek brings, and that's what makes it great.

Jeffrey

2024-12-12 15:15:10 +0000 UTC

Very fair point about Riker. Whenever I watched this episode as a kid I totally forgot about the whole plot up on the enterprise. Would you guys say that Riker is sometimes inconsistently characterized up til now? I've noticed a few discussions around Riker behavior in previous episodes.

Deep Red

2024-12-12 15:13:24 +0000 UTC

I think a couple people (including me) mentioned it in their patron takes. Hopefully Alex thinks it's cool.

THE LORE!!!

2024-12-12 15:10:45 +0000 UTC

Alex: Sokath…his eyes Opened. Josh: Shaka...when the Walls Fell Me: Zinda…his Eyes Red.

Mister Hope

2024-12-12 15:10:25 +0000 UTC

I don't think I would be too hard on Riker's decision-making. Yes, Troi told him that they weren't being nefarious, but even if we just assume she can read their intentions correctly (not always a guarantee!), it doesn't really matter what their intent was. All Riker can see is that they stole his captain, by all appearances for a fight, and also that there is an additional imminent threat to his captain. He doesn't want to have to take aggressive action but you better believe he will do so if he doesn't feel there's an alternative. Viewed from the information he has available, he was aggressive but reasonable ... which is exactly how I would expect him to be as a captain!

Joshua Taylor

2024-12-12 15:09:24 +0000 UTC

You're right. I meant this more in jest. Riker isn't the diplomat that Picard is. It's a common trope that Riker's role ends up being to keep the threat tension going with the plot of week until Picard can swoop in and solve everything with diplomacy at the end of the episode.

BN13

2024-12-12 15:09:03 +0000 UTC

I was looking through the comments just to see if anyone had mentioned this yet lol you beat me to it!

Joshua Taylor

2024-12-12 15:06:45 +0000 UTC

While I wildly disagree with Josh on this one (go Alex!), I have to echo what a lot of others have said about the honesty of their reactions. I can appreciate that not every fan favorite, or personal favorite, is going to hit the guys in the same way. "D" here seems exceedingly harsh, but I suppose sometimes the worst thing an episode can do is to be boring. In that light, I can kind of see the justification.

Lovok

2024-12-12 15:03:50 +0000 UTC

When I feel like watching an episode this is one of my usual picks. I would add more but most of them haven't been reacted to yet.

KatWithAttitude

2024-12-12 15:03:05 +0000 UTC

Yeah they annoy me cos they toss it around the studio and don’t give it much respect lol

Mister Hope

2024-12-12 15:00:45 +0000 UTC

Riker actually did everything right in this episode. Cut out all of the planet scenes, erase all of our (the audience) knowledge of what is happening in that planet, and Riker absolutely made all the right choices.

Column Meanie

2024-12-12 14:59:39 +0000 UTC

That’s a good point about Riker. If that is the case then I’m glad they affected the story positively in some way

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 14:56:46 +0000 UTC

I mean, the stakes are WILDLY different in that situation. Riker already sent an away team over to the cube to try to retrieve him. Riker knows the entire security of the Federation itself is at play with the Borg threat. They had one chance to use their weapon to stop the Borg, which trumps risking a second rescue attempt for Picard.

Lovok

2024-12-12 14:55:57 +0000 UTC

To be fair, I didn’t like this one when I first watched it. It wasn’t until a couple of repeated viewings that I really began to appreciate the beauty of Picard learning from Dathon. Also not sure if anyone mentioned before but this is the first episode which reveals the changes to the Observation Lounge. Gone is the wall of Enterprises, replaced by a generic wall.

Column Meanie

2024-12-12 14:55:57 +0000 UTC

I agree with Josh. I don't know what all the fuss is about. C

D Jammers

2024-12-12 14:54:36 +0000 UTC

Exactly! Josh can recognize that this is a well-made episode while not personally resonating with it. Fair enough. While it is surprising, it's fascinating to experience a novel journey vicariously through them both.

Paul

2024-12-12 14:53:45 +0000 UTC

Red Letter Media owns the monster head from this episode.

tyranusfan

2024-12-12 14:51:26 +0000 UTC

I rewatched it and felt mostly the same. Bored.

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 14:51:13 +0000 UTC

Remember The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one? That's why Riker ordered Worf to fire.

KatWithAttitude

2024-12-12 14:50:47 +0000 UTC

This episode tends to produce opposite reactions, love it or hate it. I will say that it is better the second time around, once you’re past the confusion.

tyranusfan

2024-12-12 14:50:36 +0000 UTC

D-tier is surprising, but that said, I do get not liking it overall. This is one of those episodes that I never vibed with as much as most. High C to low B tier for me, although it's the logic of the language that pulls me out of it. No advanced civilization could construct warp-capable ships by purely metaphorical communications. Imagine trying to design a set of instructions for building a starship purely from stories of past great engineers. What a nightmare lol. But the acting was great, and Picard's character progression is solid, so that saves the episode for me from being irredeemable. As for Riker, I think he behaved rationally given the limited information he had, and in fact, had he not fired on the Tamarian ship when he did to disable their scattering beam, Picard would have been injured or possibly even killed by the low-budget Power Rangers monster. Also, one more point I want to add, thank you for never pretending you like an episode when you don't. So many other reactors will do that, and it's painfully obvious, grasping at straws to find a tiny crumb they enjoyed and focus on that because they don't want to anger the fans that loved it. No, please always be honest, that sincerity is what I personally love the most about you guys.

Paul

2024-12-12 14:50:21 +0000 UTC

Up the Long Ladder was given an E If by “lose people” you mean they disagree with me that’s perfectly fine. I enjoy different perspectives. If you mean they will get mad or something then they should calm down.

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 14:46:27 +0000 UTC

Yes yes yes!

PIG

2024-12-12 14:45:09 +0000 UTC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Judd

Darin Wagner

2024-12-12 14:44:28 +0000 UTC

Let me just add: I think when you say "D" (which is what you gave episodes like Up The Long Ladder) you are going to lose a lot of people. Star Trek is grounded in it's directive to seek out new life and civilization -- this episode speaks directly to that ideal -- Dathon is willing to risk everything just for the chance of communication and friendship. I get it not "hooking" you, Josh. But, surely the messaging, the character moments, that moment of realization around the campfire and understanding as Dathon lays dying, and the ending on the bridge as well as the homage Picard pays him doing the Tamarian salute as he stares out in to space contemplatively are surely deserving of something higher than a "D" grade.

Matthew Ganz

2024-12-12 14:42:36 +0000 UTC

Alex, with fists open 😀 Josh, with fists closed 🥺

THE LORE!!!

2024-12-12 14:42:04 +0000 UTC

His protection of Picard… like when everyone wanted to save Picard from the Borg but Riker told Worf to fire 😆

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 14:37:14 +0000 UTC

Josh's confusion over Riker's actions here is what's confusing. Riker's protectiveness over the Captain was well established in the very first ep of the series and has been a running motif ever since. So when Picard is forcibly transported into a dangerous situation, it is completely in-character for him to want to do everything reasonably possible to get him back. Bummer Josh was bored by this one, as it's one of the standout eps TNG is known for. I, like most, find it to be a beautiful ep about communication, diplomacy, patience, and courage.

Lovok

2024-12-12 14:35:57 +0000 UTC

It was fun to watch Alex slowly be won over by the episode. (Additional comment after watching the discussion: This isn't the first time Riker is a dick and you've assumed bad writing. I like the character a lot, but Riker is a dick.)

John M.

2024-12-12 14:33:58 +0000 UTC

Josh, in his chair, arms folded

Randy Benton

2024-12-12 14:30:16 +0000 UTC

Riker and Beverly after the implant, scoreboard Geordi BEFORE Transfiguration Riker 10 Troi 3 Dr. Bev 3 Data 2 Picard 1 Worf 1 Geordi 1 Broccoli 2 i Chief/Keiko 1

Prof Moff

2024-12-12 14:28:54 +0000 UTC

Picard, his pips doubled.

Ally Roth

2024-12-12 14:27:45 +0000 UTC

WHO?

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 14:27:02 +0000 UTC

I absolutely knew one of you wasn't going to vibe with Darmok. Good. I've loved it since I was a kid, but one of my favorite things about this channel is that your opinions are often so different from the consensus. And that recontextualizes the show and makes it feel new again. That said we all know Picard's jacket absolutely whips and anyone who says otherwise is dead to me.

Ally Roth

2024-12-12 14:26:33 +0000 UTC

Star Trek Continues more beloved than Darnok by TA! One meme dies and another is born.

EnigmaticPenguin

2024-12-12 14:22:26 +0000 UTC

We both loved First Contact, but otherwise good points

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-12-12 14:15:19 +0000 UTC

You guys didn't even recognize Ashley Judd as Lt. Lefler.

Darin Wagner

2024-12-12 14:13:40 +0000 UTC

Insane raiting as usual

Fishing Trip

2024-12-12 14:13:10 +0000 UTC

Ecstasy ~ into lol

Adam from Germany

2024-12-12 14:10:58 +0000 UTC

Great way to start the day: a cup of your favorite caffeinated beverage and the next TA Star Trek TNG episode. Looking forward to it.

Collin Freeman

2024-12-12 14:09:31 +0000 UTC

Yea...this episode is consistently in the top 5 rated. I'm not even sure where to begin to justify a "D" grade.

Matthew Ganz

2024-12-12 14:09:08 +0000 UTC

When someone doesn't understand you speak louder, the added volume translates your words! ;P

James Knight

2024-12-12 14:08:48 +0000 UTC

You know, Riker really isn't the greatest captain. As we see here, and as we saw in Contagion, when he's in charge he basically just spends all of his time yelling at the other captain over the view screen.

BN13

2024-12-12 14:01:15 +0000 UTC

Lol! I had a feeling that this one wouldn't be an S for you guys, or it would rank much lower. Good luck dealing with the wrath of the fanbase! Similar to episodes like Who Watches the Watchers, these types of episodes that are more Sci-Fi or deal with understanding other alien cultures, first contact, or prime directive issues, just aren't your preferred stuff to watch, and that's ok. Your personal favorites are the Mystery and Horror episodes, like Clues, Remember Me, and Night Terrors. You share the fanbase's love for the heavier drama episodes like The Wounded, or The Drumhead, but not their love for say, the Iconian doorways in Season 2's Contagion. People need to realize that not everyone has the same Star Trek journey, and THEIR own personal journey isn't the only one that matters while other people are "watching the show wrong". That's part of what makes us different. And ironically, as in this episode in particular, Star Trek is about accepting and understanding other people by embracing their differences. Maybe commenters should learn how to practice what they preach and put down the pitchforks whenever you guys don't rank one of their favorites as high as they would. I'm writing this while there are no other comments here, so I'm not responding to anyone in particular. I'm just anticipating backlash based on past episode reactions. Good luck!

BN13

2024-12-12 13:58:50 +0000 UTC

Ah yes, the Captain's jacket... needed for this episode specifically.

Darin Wagner

2024-12-12 13:54:01 +0000 UTC

Picard his jacket open

LonghillAndy

2024-12-12 13:47:12 +0000 UTC

Even so, good job being honest

Eric Singer

2024-12-12 13:31:14 +0000 UTC

Yeah Josh this episode is frequently in top 10 lists of all time trek episodes. You hit the nail on the head. You guys hold episodes like the bonding as a goat episode when most people I've seen don't ever mention it.

Ramen Nudels

2024-12-12 13:16:25 +0000 UTC

This episode is Temba, his arms wide/open

AzoriusMage

2024-12-12 13:16:00 +0000 UTC

Dammit Josh... Lol

Eric Singer

2024-12-12 13:13:12 +0000 UTC

Oh shit... Here we go 💪. Prime STNG

Eric Singer

2024-12-12 13:06:03 +0000 UTC

Ha ha amusing episode if not a top tier one. Will watch later :)

AzoriusMage

2024-12-12 13:06:00 +0000 UTC

Sokath, Their Eyes Uncovered!

Yorin

2024-12-12 13:03:44 +0000 UTC

Oh no

Ramen Nudels

2024-12-12 13:03:12 +0000 UTC

UNCUT - Darmok (TNG S5E2) | Star Trek Journey 209

Comments

I can't believe you gave this a D on this. This is probably my favorite TNG episode ever. Shaka, when the walls fell indeed!

the timer is a nice addition for me if i accidentally pause one stream, before it was just a blurred square so this is better imho

I have the same controversial opinion as Josh for this one. It's a D from me. I almost always skip it.

This is one of my favorite episodes.

Idiom and metaphor are culturally specific. My understanding is that it is a huge stumbling block for many ESL folks who know the words but haven't spent time immersed in the "culture".

You shouldn’t be doing anything wrong, what you’re describing should work

Yeah I get that. Just rejoined and have my copy on Paramount plus. When I was a member before (last month). All I had to do was sync your uncut with paramount plus episode and hit play at same time and it was fine no timer on your side.....so not sure what changed or what I'm doing wrong

You need to sync up your own copy. This has always been the case.

Why is the timer on? It wasn't like this before.

We used to think this didn't make sense now i have conversations in gif. What fools we were.

Nepobaby

We used to think this didn't make sense now i have conversations in gif. What fools we were.

Hey guys, by your own standards, S doesn’t mean objectively the best ever, but one that really hits you.

The nobility of the Tamarian captain, and the way their language is unintelligible as a viewer then is understandable by the end, are some of the reasons why this is a S Tier episode for me.

Well up to a point

Same, makes me tear up every time!

^ THIS

Josh, his face black, his eyes red. Josh on the ocean. Shaka, when the walls fell. Alex his eyes open. Alex and the audience at Tanagra. Alex and the audience on the ocean.

Plot Synopsis: They speak in memes from a TV show Picard's not seen.

I always thought it was fun that that the universal translator was working fine at translating words into English but just couldn’t get the meaning because no one knew their culture and history 😅

Target Audience watching Darmok. Josh on the ocean.

Zero chance anyone could say you're not invested with integrity though - watching a D episode a week later w/ context just to see if anything stirred. I applaud your efforts sir.

This is what happens when someone lays a D on Darmok :D

Hell, I’ve watched that ABC Afterschool Special “The Bonding” two more times since Alex and Josh gushed about it. I have to admit, I’ve gone from outright hating it to only disliking it!

The show was shot on film. They can keep rereleasing it in higher and higher definitions.

R.I.P. Star Trek

I had forgotten how tense it really got near the end there.

I remember I had to watch "Yesterday's Enterprise" a few times to fully take it all in, it was such a mindfvck.

I mean, they make sense early on if you have an imagination, as Picard apparently did.

Is féidir leat é a bhaint amach má leanann tú ar aghaidh ag triail!

The monster design was fine.

I thought I just had to live with that discharge...

I don't get it either.

Holy shit! 300+ comments??!

I think why I like it so much is that it's not like anything I would ever think up myself!

You didn't notice Ashley Judd's first acting role.

I watched it a week later and felt the same. It’s fine, just doesn’t get me invested

@timothy Well, I have seen sex with less hitting but no, we can't count being beat up as a score. That would be a whole different Porn Hub channel lol

Please state the nature of the tactical emergency?

That was brilliant

To be fair, the lives of everyone on Earth/in the Federation was at stake. Riker certainly knows there are concerns that outweigh any of their lives.

Like the translation. Dathon getting fucked up by the creature didn't count?

Riker, his 4th pip denied

by the way, the tamarian captian was one of the most popular original action figures. Had that one as a kid.

Locutus and Riker, at Wolf 539

Homer Simpson, fading into the bush, his eyes wide

I cry every time I watch this episode. I give it an S tier. I risk everything to connect and make a friend.

I'm glad one of you didn't like this episode. I've never liked it and could hardly make it through this re-watch. The jacket made it watchable 😀

Couldn’t have said it better myself. And despite what many of us hope, myself included, this is a reaction channel not a “watch us become hardcore trek fans 100% guaranteed” channel. Lol

This is a top 5 episode for me. It's Star Trek doing true science fiction. It's an amazing story pulled off to perfection.

Facepalm Picard at Josh’s reaction

I love this episode I give it an A tier

They speak in metaphor, they would have to "know what they mean" before they say it regardless of the words. Its necessary for the entire show that she can't read that for some reason this time.

Two episodes of Season Five absolutely blew me away upon my first viewing in 1991-1992…”Darmok” and the one we all know about near the end of the season!!

Haven't read all the comments, but surprised to not see my takeaway. When this aired, I thought it was an OK episode, but the communication by analogy was farfetched. Living now in meme culture, our society seems obsessed with this form of communication. I now would rank it A tier.

Meh she cant read some races like ferengi etc

Silly?

This is Star Trek! No endless pew pew or soap operas or silly comedy. Science Fiction that has an intellectual component and examines the human adventure.

Sokath

Well, my experience is that it usually is. Whatever. I don't like this episode as much as others do, and like THERE ARE THREE LIGHTS, I kinda get tired of hearing about it...

I did rate this A tier, but for me I don't really enjoy rewatching it. I agree with Alex's take that it is an important episode.

What I find surprising is that they didn't go on to cross-reference the other terms used, something Data could have done with the computer once Troi helped him work out the "key".

@Deep Red What about the Doctor Who character? haha

@Andreas Schmitt Jackets in lieu of the proper shirt/top? (What Picard is wearing underneath it isn't standard either.) That's different than a jacket worn over a regular uniform. Only the CO gets to wear a jacket? Picard is cold but Troi is not??

Only when I perceive that "blather" as fueled by herd mentality.

I've always liked this episode. And, for me, it just improves on rewatch. To me, this is quintessential Star Trek.

""He is a man of deep feelings." Spock

"Do you have burning phaser discharge from your torpedo hole? You may need to speak to your doctor."

Didn’t care much for it when I was young. Really appreciate it now as an old man

great episode

And even a blind squirrel stumbles upon an acorn occasionally.

Similarly I think I considered it a B grade at best on first watch. But it’s one of those episodes where as time passes, both from rewatching and pondering it, My appreciation grew.

I'm with Mark. Top 20 - maybe even top 10!

Well, it's just a really well-known obvious example. I think most people know what I'm describing when I mention marvel.

Never a good sign when Josh is playing with his phone at the 1.24 mark.

I think many of us are just as shocked about the D grade as you are about 3/4 of patrons giving it an S lol.

I found out just recently that the shot from outside Picard's ready room was a very small model, and they matted Patrick Stewart into the window every time they used that angle. (I had always, I guess naively, believed that they'd merely painted the outside of the soundstage wall!)

This one is a solid B for me. I think Josh makes some solid points though.