Target Audience / PATRON TIER LIST TNG S4E23

Let's make a couple changes to this episode and see how it would be received. Make the Trill a female and...I don't know, let's just pick Geordi La Forge. They fall in love with one another. Use the same plot - host dies and the symbiont is transferred into, maybe Deanna Troi. Geordi and the Trill decide to have sex, using Deanna's body - without her consent. Is that a good, or even acceptable, episode? It is on my list of worst 10 episodes of the series, maybe even worst 5. A complete failure. Easily an E tier rating.

Jim J

2024-11-19 06:46:55 +0000 UTC

About a year ago, I commented that the next generation had suffered from some amount of backlash against perceived LGBT storylines. This was the first episode that I noticeably recognized several of my friends turn off and never watch Star Trek again there is another episode in the fifth season that had the same effect to get another group of people. Personally I had already seen the movie switch before and suspected that the storyline would end the way that it did a powerful episode in recognizing societal impact versus desire for an individual. Your personality might be right but for the way you were raised, they might not think you were the right gender. To me it’s very reminiscent of the Doctor Who short from 1999 called. The curse of fatal death. In which, after a regeneration, the doctor‘s fiancé says, I have to say this and it has never been more true, you’re just not the same man I fell in love with

Thicketdweller

2024-10-26 17:44:24 +0000 UTC

I think the concept of the Trill is really interesting, and they went in an interesting direction with it here.

Jovet

2024-10-22 07:26:11 +0000 UTC

Too preachy, too tragic.

Jovet

2024-10-22 07:20:04 +0000 UTC

Yep! We finally get here.

Jovet

2024-10-22 07:16:37 +0000 UTC

It's a D for Dr. Beverly too! 😏

Jovet

2024-10-22 07:16:04 +0000 UTC

SO MANY SPOILERS in these comments! Seriously, what the fuck

Jovet

2024-10-22 07:12:50 +0000 UTC

Now, you FINALLY get to meet Doctor Beverly, for real!

Jovet

2024-10-22 07:11:05 +0000 UTC

This is the only episode of Season 4 that I actively dislike. Contrived love story where one of our heroes crazily overinvests. Also, the Trill will become a much better developed and almost totally different species later on. Though I realize it's out of the spirit of your channel to hate on an episode because it contradicts future canon you guys haven't seen yet. Feel free to forget these guys.

Alexander McKechnie

2024-10-22 00:01:36 +0000 UTC

Interesting fact : Gates McFadden was around 8 months pregnant during this episode. They get away with it (just) but there is an overuse of mid close ups when you watch the episode back

Jon1701

2024-10-21 17:18:25 +0000 UTC

This episode is quite forgettable. I've seen most of TNG a half-dozen times or more, but I think I've only seen this one once or twice. This is a clumsy early attempt with a species that will become better defined and important down the road, but I'm not a fan of trying to force romantic stories on the female crew members. Crusher shines when she's not boxed into whirlwind romances (ie: "Remember Me"). I suppose there's an element of this story that seems more relevant today than it would have in 1991.

Jesse Manning

2024-10-20 17:50:45 +0000 UTC

My closeted 14 year old self when this episode came out - “this episode is speaking to me, and I really don’t know why.”

Christopher Boutwell

2024-10-19 00:09:29 +0000 UTC

This is a D for me, probably my least favourite of the season. I won't give spoilers, but in about a year or so, you might understand why.

jon bolton

2024-10-18 17:48:38 +0000 UTC

Funny thing about the Trill species is they don't look like that in DS9. Also the first hint of lesbian interaction at the end.

Christopher Dorn

2024-10-17 19:55:08 +0000 UTC

Yeah, I get that, I just think it's handled rather clumsily. The hosts are clearly living, thinking people that are completely subsumed by the symbiote. If they were cloned bodies without memories or personality, there wouldn't be much of an issue. As for Riker, the way I see it is that he agreed to help so the negotiations could proceed. Odan should have understood that, but Beverly certainly should have remembered that underneath Odan, it's her friend and colleague standing in front of her.

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-10-17 19:54:15 +0000 UTC

Again: the theme is successful in so many ways - and our various responses prove it works on as many levels as we are individual people.

Rhett Coates

2024-10-17 17:41:57 +0000 UTC

Wow, BN13 - I think Gene Roddenberry would be SO PROUD to know that a Star Trek story inspired anyone to really think about such ideas and how the moral of it could play out across multiple scenarios in our lives. Awesome thoughts there, BN13. Provocative and more in many good ways. In that way, this Star Trek story is a success.

Rhett Coates

2024-10-17 17:39:46 +0000 UTC

The first time I heard Josh state her name that way, I thought about THIS episode as well. Josh: you've been vindicated!

Rhett Coates

2024-10-17 17:30:35 +0000 UTC

I was about to post something similar about how hypocritical people would be if it were a lesbian being expected to just switch their sexual orientation and be with a dude at the end. If you're not into women, then you're not into women. It doesn't mean you're suddenly anti LGTBQ. It just means you're sexual orientation doesn't change on a whim. Who would have thought? As for the symbiote thing, for the purpose of what this episode was trying to say, which was "when we love somebody, do we truly love them just for their soul, absolutely regardless of outward appearance, gender, whatever, or is it more complicated than that?" The host has to be an absolute blank slate in order for that plot to work. As for Riker's consent, he consented to being an absolute blank slate host for Odan for a while. That means he consents to letting Odan borrow his body for a while, and that means he consents to whatever Odan decides to do with that body. What sucks is he can't change his mind later if he decides that he actually doesn't consent to something. But again, here things only work like that because the trill are solely a plot device. Once they decided to actually do more with the trill, they rewrote that to make them feel more like an actual species and not just a blank slot for the plot.

BN13

2024-10-17 14:51:39 +0000 UTC

If he got dat worm dent, he def can't consent

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

2024-10-17 02:23:31 +0000 UTC

Crusher is definitely allowed to not be sexually attracted to women even in 2024

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

2024-10-17 02:22:51 +0000 UTC

Riker remembers everything. EVERYTHING.

#MaxwellDidNothingWrong

2024-10-17 02:12:18 +0000 UTC

"True to her bones!" Wierd episode, I dont buy the relationship. Clearly a short term physical fling so why the heartbreak as if it was a year long thing?

Chris Mickelson

2024-10-17 00:26:20 +0000 UTC

After Josh kept calling her "Dr. Beverly" throughout Season 1, I couldn't WAIT for you to get to this episode.

David Brown

2024-10-17 00:21:52 +0000 UTC

The chemistry is weird. McFadden really does seem to be glowing but I don’t buy it nonetheless. Another least rewatched episode of the series for me.

rear adm. crackbiscuit

2024-10-16 02:07:37 +0000 UTC

This will get an S-rank for reasons we fully understand. I know it, you know it.

JGoss

2024-10-15 17:12:03 +0000 UTC

I think that they were trying to show that Dr Beverly was actually in love with the trill and that’s why she had sex with him in Rikers body. At the end she was so excited to meet the new host but just couldn’t go there with a female body. Like I said, it was the early 90’s broadcast tv.

marty63026

2024-10-15 14:56:23 +0000 UTC

I really hate when people suggest that Crusher was somehow wrong or backward for not being into women at the end. Why is it fine to question her sexual orientation, but if someone suggests that a lesbian might like dick if she'd just be open minded and try it, everyone loses their minds? Big double standard. Also the fact that the symbiote seems to suppress the host much like Stargate's Goa'uld do raises huge bodily autonomy issues, especially when one of those hosts is a colleague and friend. D tier

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-10-15 14:21:04 +0000 UTC

But most importantly when compared to The Price, it didn't have an extended shot of Crusher getting a foot massage. There are Crusher fans with foot fetishes out there, and they were denied justice.

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-10-15 13:58:26 +0000 UTC

As much as people harp on First Contact for Lanel "forcing herself" on Riker, I think that case is overblown. Riker had no choice or input here, making it a much more clear case of SA. The fact it's Crusher that did it is a really bad look.

Timothy Nikiforovs

2024-10-15 13:50:00 +0000 UTC

Dog shit episode. Easily one of the worst of this season. It feels even worse after you watch DS9 (Not going into spoilers). It's one that I skip every time I re-watch the show these days. It feels like something they just threw in because they had to reach the 26 episodes per season count.

Spencer Loften

2024-10-15 13:36:30 +0000 UTC

I so LOVE this episode, I love the love story and all it involves, though much like Cheryl Gates McFadden since, I am a bit disappointed in the end of the episode. I love the stuff with Troi (and the acting from Sirtis) and how good Frakes was in this ! An absolute A! Till the end… so you know, a B

Sixto

2024-10-15 12:19:04 +0000 UTC

Okay, so Odan was only supposed to be in Riker for a short time. And apparently he was in FULL control of Riker's body. And he decided he wanted to use Riker's body to make out with Crusher? Did Riker get no say? Because I think he would have said no if he'd been asked! That was pretty presumptuous.

Ian Westcott

2024-10-15 06:11:39 +0000 UTC

I'm not sure why a "symbiote" completely subsumes and replaces the personality of the host it's in. I also don't like Crusher's assertion that it's a human problem that humans don't like same-gender pairings, ignoring all the LG and especially B people that really exist. She should have just said _she_ can't handle that Odan changed genders.

Ian Westcott

2024-10-15 06:10:15 +0000 UTC

This episode definitely drank from the wrong Grail. It has aged poorly.

Ron Hubbard Jr

2024-10-15 05:08:20 +0000 UTC

The Trill are introduced, sort of...

Ron Hubbard Jr

2024-10-15 05:07:11 +0000 UTC

It's just more sexual abuse of Riker, if you ask me.

Moonlander

2024-10-15 03:19:06 +0000 UTC

Now you will see why some of us were amused when you started calling Beverly "Dr. Beverly" back in Season 1. A very strange episode with sort of mixed messages, but I do like it. I rank it as "Enjoyable".

KatWithAttitude

2024-10-15 03:08:11 +0000 UTC

D-Tier. Nietzsche help us all. The ending really, truly show's this episode's age. I'm sure a plot like this could end the same way in today's climate, but handled perhaps with more grace. I'll just echo what everyone else has been stating in that this episode provides important lo(rrrrrrrrrrrrr)e for later Trek. I won't spoil which.

Shortskirtsandexplosions

2024-10-15 02:06:41 +0000 UTC

Important primarily for the introduction of a certain species.

tyranusfan

2024-10-15 01:44:16 +0000 UTC

Meh.

Who North America

2024-10-15 00:00:52 +0000 UTC

Some cringey and gross moments aside, I still give this one an A for the unique alien concept and for its thoughtful exploration of what it means to love someone for who they are.

Dan Halstead

2024-10-14 23:17:13 +0000 UTC

Beverley bangs Riker!

LonghillAndy

2024-10-14 21:21:42 +0000 UTC

This episode has aged poorly because it contradicts some future, better episodes. As a standalone episode it's C at bet.

Tim b

2024-10-14 21:20:31 +0000 UTC

Watch once, remember for the future that the Trill exist and are hosts/symbionts, but skip the rewatch of this one. By the numbers, and doesn't age well.

The Ninth Doctor

2024-10-14 21:08:15 +0000 UTC

E for me. Thoroughly boring, awkward, and half-baked. The introduction of the unique Trill species is the only positive contribution this episode makes to Trek, but even that isn't explored very well. Worst of the season probably. Always skip this one.

Lovok

2024-10-14 21:00:31 +0000 UTC

Decent, 6.3/10, D-Tier. I found it pretty boring and, without spoiling too much, in retrospect the wat they did the Trill made this barely seem canon. Also the shots of Odan's hairy, pregnant-looking, wiggling belly kinda grossed me out.

Steven Cressler

2024-10-14 20:54:48 +0000 UTC

Doesn't hit for me.

Prof Moff

2024-10-14 20:18:25 +0000 UTC

I don't think it's a spoiler if I say...Don't worry too much about how the trill/host relationship is shown to work here....

Greg Quinn

2024-10-14 18:38:03 +0000 UTC

I can’t find this one believable despite an interesting concept. Props to Gates McFadden and Jonathan Frakes for trying their best but I find some of the scenes laughable.

Paul Rymer

2024-10-14 18:10:20 +0000 UTC

I know the trill are different later, but I think in this episode the hosts were meant to be absolutely blank slates. They were a race created solely for the point of the story which is "do we really only love a person's soul, or is it a mix of soul and other things?" Odan is purely the symbiote here, not a mix of symbiote and host.

BN13

2024-10-14 17:28:32 +0000 UTC

I don't skip many episodes, but when I do .... it's this episode. While I love The Price, I can't stand the contrived romance in this one. This has a bunch of half-baked ideas. The part with the actor is too fast and lacking, the part with Riker feels underdeveloped, and then the conclusion was needlessly awkward.

JGoss

2024-10-14 17:12:59 +0000 UTC

Eh, Crusher is just a straight woman. She's attracted to what she's attracted to. In a way, that scene is MORE relevant today, and speaks to the intersections of love and physical attraction in sn age where the physical side CAN change, how individual's respond and what the validity of one's feeling are in that situation.

Nolan

2024-10-14 17:09:33 +0000 UTC

After several excellent episodes, we have one that’s kinda cringy. I’ll be generous and give it a “C” because the concept of the Trill is good sci fi and there could be good stories looking at that society. But the actual story… “meh” is generous.

Crankygrandma

2024-10-14 17:05:54 +0000 UTC

B, Good story, but I wish they had explained the Trill better. Like they could have explained if a host had a mind of its own. Riker seemed to be totally overpowered by smbiot. Plus the new host could talk be for the joining.

Keith S

2024-10-14 17:02:40 +0000 UTC

You KNOW Crusher and Troi were compairing notes after this. Another great sci-fi concept... just forget everything the episode tells you about how the Trill work and what their history is, besides the sentient alien stomach slug.

Nolan

2024-10-14 17:01:48 +0000 UTC

Another one of those "interesting idea neutered by the fact that's still 1991" episodes. It tries to play with queer themes but - like in GALAXY'S CHILD - the cultural standards and tropes of TV means that they can't endanger core characters' 'reputations' (i.e. sexuality, behaviour, ethical choices) and so they just chicken out when they should have leaned into the subject matter. Thankfully future TREK shows will slightly redesign and use the Trill to be much more emphatic about the show's views on queer issues and showing a progressivism around notions of gender and age.

The Sultan

2024-10-14 16:26:44 +0000 UTC

A lot of people use this species to analog for transgender and gay issues and personally I don’t think the transgender idea fits. The gay part of this episode was neutered from Rick Berman and was very faux pas for the early 90’s. Would you love someone if their personality and memory was different from their body and could change completely?

Phil Ken Sebben

2024-10-14 16:19:50 +0000 UTC

Yeah, that's a silly criticism to me. You don't just suddenly change your identity because your partner does. Let alone her having to wrap her head around the Trill lifecycle.

Forbidden Donut

2024-10-14 16:05:42 +0000 UTC

I like this episode, though I can't seem to grade it higher than a B. Notable most for introducing the Trill species, however this is very much a 'beta test' for how they will be developed / improved later on. They sort of wasted an opportunity to explore sexual identity and gender identity at the end of the episode, but at the same time that's too much to try to cram into the back half or the final act of an episode, so it ends up being more of a tease of the idea. Plus, in 1991 I'm not sure how far they would / could have taken it anyway. Let alone the fact that a heterosexual probably wouldn't suddenly become bisexual just because this scenario came along in their life.

Forbidden Donut

2024-10-14 16:03:32 +0000 UTC

I agree. Also, the episode made it a point that her adjusting to him as Riker was a huge adjustment for her. When she saw Odan would be a woman, that's another huge adjustment to make. I got the impression that she might have considered looking past the gender eventually, but then thought, "how many more major adjustments am I going to have to make? What if I get used to him as a woman and then he changes again?" Then she decided that that's not the kind of relationship that she wants.

BN13

2024-10-14 15:56:02 +0000 UTC

I actually kind of went through this myself. I first met my husband online, so for a long time I had an image in my head of what he looked like. When I finally met him in person, I actually described it as being like this episode. It was like I had to get used to a new outer image of him. It almost felt like being with a totally different person even though I knew he was the same person. This episode also makes me think of people who were married for a long time, but then suddenly one of them discovers that they are actually trans, or polyamorous, or gets disabled or disfigured. Would we stick by our partner regardless in those circumstances, or would it be too much for us? Would we lose our sense of identity for them? Do we actually love a person's soul, or do we actually love the combination of things that we perceive as being "them?"

BN13

2024-10-14 15:49:14 +0000 UTC

This is an episode I like more and more the more I watch it and think about it. The concept though is probably better than it's execution. When we say we love somebody, what is it that we actually love? How big of a role do looks actually factor in to our attraction even if we think they don't matter to us? What if our partner switched appearances every week, or even switched genders? Some of them attractive to us, some not. Would any of us be able to handle that? Would we really accept their soul regardless, or do we all actually need some sense of stability there? This episode pushes that idea to an extreme and I appreciate it for that.

BN13

2024-10-14 15:40:01 +0000 UTC

Decent idea, introduction to the Trills (kind of, we'll get to that later)....proabably needed a little more time to cook and it could've been great.

Elway Simpson

2024-10-14 15:15:54 +0000 UTC

The ending of this episode has been criticized for having Beverly balk at the possibility of a relationship with a woman. I've never really understood this criticism. For one thing, couldn't she just, you know, not be interested in women? But moreover, she pretty clearly says that the reason she doesn't want to continue the relationship is that she isn't ready for a relationship with a parasitic slug who keeps changing bodies.

Steven Linden

2024-10-14 14:50:49 +0000 UTC

Third bad episode in a row for me. Season 4 started off so strong and ended so badly. First of all, I understand what they were going for with the Trill. I just despised the concept here. Secondly, Beverly would be too professional to have sex with Riker just because he was the new host. That would be like someone you love dying and their spirit violently takes over the body of someone else that you like and consider a friend, but dang it if you don't love the ghost so much you're willing to violate their body just for some more loving from the spirit (one reason I despised WW1984 so much). Just a big old pass from me. I never need to watch this episode again. EVER.

wildhunt1973

2024-10-14 14:39:06 +0000 UTC

This episode is a forgettable one (as it always seems to be the case whenever Gates McFadden or Marina Sirtis get a chance to shine) but it introduces the Trill and their symbiotes. Unlike the episode that introduced the Cardassians, the Trill aren't antagonists, so there's not nearly as much conflict and bad feeling as there was in that episode, so IMO, it's not nearly as interesting. But it's still an important episode. But important does not equal high-quality. C-tier.

John

2024-10-14 14:20:37 +0000 UTC

From a modern point of view the ending of this episode falls short but at the time it’s understandable. The rest of it is Banger all the way. The fact that Crusher has sex with Rikers body was wild. B tier for me.

marty63026

2024-10-14 14:18:02 +0000 UTC

This episode follows the same formula as many Star Trek episodes, where a negotiator with some unique quirk must overcome great odds to complete their mission. I feel like the formula has been overdone at this point.

Evan Guthrie

2024-10-14 14:16:14 +0000 UTC

This is the episode where Star Trek almost endorses and depicts a same-sex relationship but is vetoed by Rick Berman and the script chickens out. Also, retrospectively, Star Trek breaches the questions surrounding transgenderism and gender identity decades before most of us learned those terms. Truly a landmark.

Aramis Calcutt

2024-10-14 14:01:00 +0000 UTC

PATRON TIER LIST TNG S4E23

Comments

I think the concept of the Trill is really interesting, and they went in an interesting direction with it here.

Too preachy, too tragic.

Yep! We finally get here.

It's a D for Dr. Beverly too! 😏

SO MANY SPOILERS in these comments! Seriously, what the fuck

Now, you FINALLY get to meet Doctor Beverly, for real!

Interesting fact : Gates McFadden was around 8 months pregnant during this episode. They get away with it (just) but there is an overuse of mid close ups when you watch the episode back

My closeted 14 year old self when this episode came out - “this episode is speaking to me, and I really don’t know why.”

This is a D for me, probably my least favourite of the season. I won't give spoilers, but in about a year or so, you might understand why.

Funny thing about the Trill species is they don't look like that in DS9. Also the first hint of lesbian interaction at the end.

Again: the theme is successful in so many ways - and our various responses prove it works on as many levels as we are individual people.

The first time I heard Josh state her name that way, I thought about THIS episode as well. Josh: you've been vindicated!

If he got dat worm dent, he def can't consent

Crusher is definitely allowed to not be sexually attracted to women even in 2024

Riker remembers everything. EVERYTHING.

"True to her bones!" Wierd episode, I dont buy the relationship. Clearly a short term physical fling so why the heartbreak as if it was a year long thing?

After Josh kept calling her "Dr. Beverly" throughout Season 1, I couldn't WAIT for you to get to this episode.

The chemistry is weird. McFadden really does seem to be glowing but I don’t buy it nonetheless. Another least rewatched episode of the series for me.

This will get an S-rank for reasons we fully understand. I know it, you know it.

I think that they were trying to show that Dr Beverly was actually in love with the trill and that’s why she had sex with him in Rikers body. At the end she was so excited to meet the new host but just couldn’t go there with a female body. Like I said, it was the early 90’s broadcast tv.

But most importantly when compared to The Price, it didn't have an extended shot of Crusher getting a foot massage. There are Crusher fans with foot fetishes out there, and they were denied justice.

As much as people harp on First Contact for Lanel "forcing herself" on Riker, I think that case is overblown. Riker had no choice or input here, making it a much more clear case of SA. The fact it's Crusher that did it is a really bad look.

Dog shit episode. Easily one of the worst of this season. It feels even worse after you watch DS9 (Not going into spoilers). It's one that I skip every time I re-watch the show these days. It feels like something they just threw in because they had to reach the 26 episodes per season count.

This episode definitely drank from the wrong Grail. It has aged poorly.

The Trill are introduced, sort of...

It's just more sexual abuse of Riker, if you ask me.

Now you will see why some of us were amused when you started calling Beverly "Dr. Beverly" back in Season 1. A very strange episode with sort of mixed messages, but I do like it. I rank it as "Enjoyable".

Important primarily for the introduction of a certain species.

Meh.

Some cringey and gross moments aside, I still give this one an A for the unique alien concept and for its thoughtful exploration of what it means to love someone for who they are.

Beverley bangs Riker!

This episode has aged poorly because it contradicts some future, better episodes. As a standalone episode it's C at bet.

Watch once, remember for the future that the Trill exist and are hosts/symbionts, but skip the rewatch of this one. By the numbers, and doesn't age well.

E for me. Thoroughly boring, awkward, and half-baked. The introduction of the unique Trill species is the only positive contribution this episode makes to Trek, but even that isn't explored very well. Worst of the season probably. Always skip this one.

Decent, 6.3/10, D-Tier. I found it pretty boring and, without spoiling too much, in retrospect the wat they did the Trill made this barely seem canon. Also the shots of Odan's hairy, pregnant-looking, wiggling belly kinda grossed me out.

Doesn't hit for me.

I don't think it's a spoiler if I say...Don't worry too much about how the trill/host relationship is shown to work here....

I can’t find this one believable despite an interesting concept. Props to Gates McFadden and Jonathan Frakes for trying their best but I find some of the scenes laughable.

After several excellent episodes, we have one that’s kinda cringy. I’ll be generous and give it a “C” because the concept of the Trill is good sci fi and there could be good stories looking at that society. But the actual story… “meh” is generous.

B, Good story, but I wish they had explained the Trill better. Like they could have explained if a host had a mind of its own. Riker seemed to be totally overpowered by smbiot. Plus the new host could talk be for the joining.

You KNOW Crusher and Troi were compairing notes after this. Another great sci-fi concept... just forget everything the episode tells you about how the Trill work and what their history is, besides the sentient alien stomach slug.

Yeah, that's a silly criticism to me. You don't just suddenly change your identity because your partner does. Let alone her having to wrap her head around the Trill lifecycle.

Decent idea, introduction to the Trills (kind of, we'll get to that later)....proabably needed a little more time to cook and it could've been great.

From a modern point of view the ending of this episode falls short but at the time it’s understandable. The rest of it is Banger all the way. The fact that Crusher has sex with Rikers body was wild. B tier for me.

This episode follows the same formula as many Star Trek episodes, where a negotiator with some unique quirk must overcome great odds to complete their mission. I feel like the formula has been overdone at this point.

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