UNCUT REACTION - Battlestar Galactica S1E8 - Flesh and Bone
Added 2024-07-16 12:00:12 +0000 UTC
Comments
I think Laura was well aware that Starbuck was going to give him the stick, and her reaction was at least in part manufactured in preparation of handing him the carrot. After all she was fine with tossing him out the airlock moments later.
khoma
2024-07-31 22:03:29 +0000 UTCWell, you guys are gonna LOVE knowing this episode sets up some long-term narratives in the show. Basically, the first time you watch this episode you think he's just spouting nonsense. By the time ypou get here for a rewatch, it all makes some sense. Also, "You were born to a woman that believed pain and suffering were good for the soul, so she made sure you suffered a lot." "Well, Ma, always said there was nothing up there anyway." Starbuck had an abusive mother. Leoben knew that. And he spoke to her directly about that. Related his trauma to Kara's, thus built a connection between them. That was your "Oh, you're allergic to peanuts" moment. As for Laura, I think she is still coming from an idealist view, but adapting to a grey world. She wanted to interrogate that Cylon because she had a prophetic dream about him - due to the Kamala medication she's taking for her illness that a few episodes was described as something priests use. She was not expecting a full on torture session cause that's not the world she's lived in. then the guy says Adama is a Cylon, gives her doubt and she realizes that he IS dangerous and decides to execute him for that. Here's the question: Is how Starbuck treated this Cylon in this epsiode right? Is torture okay? even if they can turn off their pan? If that isn't just an assumption we can make? Did Kara dehumanize the Cylon, or herself?
Nolan
2024-07-18 23:33:02 +0000 UTCGood, family friendly makes more money
startrekiborg
2024-07-18 21:00:35 +0000 UTCThey will see the actor again if they follow through on watching all of Star Trek
Derek Orr
2024-07-18 20:30:15 +0000 UTCBaltar represents flawed human morality and the scenes with head 6 are comedic gold
Derek Orr
2024-07-18 20:28:32 +0000 UTCAnd now it’s generally going backwards in movies and tv shows….far less sex on screen than 20 years ago
Derek Orr
2024-07-18 20:27:12 +0000 UTCWhile I agree with most if not all of what you say about BSG etc…but I don’t think anything good comes from telling these guys that this is not the show for them. Watching exclusively the same type of shows and not branching out is not how people grow and appreciate new things. Let these guys watch and get immersed in the show, by season 2 or 3 they will be the biggest fans on the planet.
Derek Orr
2024-07-18 20:24:43 +0000 UTCAll good man, you can't make everybody happy all the time and clearly I enjoy the product because I'm here commenting on this shit that I am paying you money for so. :)
Dor
2024-07-18 12:08:14 +0000 UTCYeah, man. Just like TNG, there are some stinkers. I think D. Moore wanted to explore torture because this show came out when the US was widely reported using “enhanced interrogation techniques” on captive terrorists. Swing and a miss.
Jess Thomas
2024-07-18 05:33:53 +0000 UTC@Aaron when I say that’s the channel, I mean that it’s part of the channel. Regardless of what the thing is we are always going to talk during it, poke fun at it, laugh, and so on. We do that whether we love the thing we are watching or hate it. Honestly if we are ever sitting there silently it’s probably because we are bored out of our minds, and we are never bored watching BSG.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-17 11:23:33 +0000 UTC@Dor that’s very interesting. Perhaps we aren’t clear enough that everything we say is only our opinion and don’t consider it more or less valuable than anyone else’s. Our opinion being “matter of fact” is something I’ve never even thought of. Starting every sentence with “in my opinion” or “for me” may become tedious, so I’m not sure how to improve on that, but I get what you’re saying and will have to think about that.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-17 11:16:09 +0000 UTCYeah, I definitely feel you were too harsh on the episode and the Leoben actor, but to each their own. A lot of people consider the next one a low point of the season, but based on past reactions, maybe you'll love it. Good stuff coming up nonetheless. Don't really have anything else to say about the episode that Michael Ducharme and Dor haven't covered already, so they saved me the trouble.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-07-17 06:26:25 +0000 UTCNailed it. Couldn't have said it better
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-07-17 05:07:08 +0000 UTCGood points all around
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-17 04:08:00 +0000 UTCSeason 2 is pretty fantastic for the most part.
Aaron Wells
2024-07-17 03:11:58 +0000 UTCI mean, is it? Is that the channel? Because you guys have actually had some pretty good discussions on things. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you eight times out of ten. I've seen you bend over backwards patiently taking some really terrible Star Trek at its value. And you guys were absolutely right about Captain's Holiday, and I say that with the awareness that a lot of people really like it. I feel that BSG is head and shoulders above TNG in a lot of ways... I think that TNG establishes the genre in its modern guise, while BSG elevated it to the level of a serious dramatic presentation. I would love to be able to recommend The Expanse for you guys... Which is in my opinion, one of the top three science fiction shows ever made. It is truly excellent. But it's not funny. And honestly, at this point, I feel like you'd probably hate it LOL. :)
Aaron Wells
2024-07-17 03:06:39 +0000 UTCI've seen the gif as well. So it's a bit quixotic, perhaps, but it's got to be at least as valid to defend something you care about as to attack something someone else cares about.
Aaron Wells
2024-07-17 02:58:25 +0000 UTCYeah that's cool Getting y'all's genuine opinions is much better than the alternative of just fellating the fanbase on everything to rake in the sweet Pateon bux. To try and give the reasonable version of this criticism: disliking something I like doesn't bother me, especially if you articulate why. That's interesting! What does sometimes get under my skin a little is: 1. Treating matters of taste as matters of fact. 2. (Relatedly) Not taking it seriously, or not taking the idea of alternate valid perspectives seriously. It's the difference between "That element doesn't work for me" or "I didn't buy it" or "I didn't understand why that happened" vs "That was a mess, that was dumb, actor is trash , garbage episode lol." The former is just a difference of opinion that makes for interesting discussion. The latter makes me feel attacked for having a different perspective. I know, I know, you don't care, I've seen the gif.
Dor
2024-07-17 02:33:12 +0000 UTCLeoben is one of my favorite characters on the show, and there is no plausible way he knows the stuff he knows at this point in the show, and certainly overhearing starbuck gossip would not cause Roslin to have an accurate precog dream. The TA missed the bullseye this vid, but there is more BSG to come and stuff eventually hopefully all makes sense, kinda.
Ken R
2024-07-17 02:29:19 +0000 UTCGood takes, agree with most of this. Starbuck's turn is really clear to me on rewatch, but to be fair it wasn't the first time and I was left confused.
Dor
2024-07-17 02:19:46 +0000 UTCAlright I'm going to try and defend this episode a little bit. I'm not offended you guys didn't like it, I was just a little surprised by how MUCH you didn't like it so maybe I'll throw out an alternate perspective that you can take or leave. This is not close to my favorite episode of BSG. It's fine. Most of what I like about this episode are the doors it opens without closing. It leaves me with questions and is one of the first episodes that isn't just about survival. I think there are basically three things happening with the main story here: 1. We're delving into some of the religion and mysticism of the show. 2. We’re developing Starbuck’s character 3. We’re exploring the dehumanization of the enemy with a very not subtle reference to events in the news at the time the show aired (Gitmo). It’s notable to me that Roslin dreams about the Cylon before he appears - that, to me, sets the tone for the whole episode. Adama says he mixes lies with truth, so what from him can we believe? There are ways to explain why he knows Starbuck’s name, but Roslin dreaming the scene ahead of time and then the Cylon claiming to be a prophet who can see the future is some interesting weird shit. The bomb seems obviously BS from the jump, but then he tells Kara intimate details about her abusive childhood and talks to Kara about how she views herself. This seems to hit Kara really hard, and isn’t the kind of thing a guy hiding on some ship in the fleet could, like, just pick up. Who would Starbuck even tell that shit to? This, to me, totally explains her shift in mood the rest of the episode. She tries to keep torturing him, but her heart isn’t in it. She sees him as a person now, and clearly his insight and quoting scripture (all of this will happen before, all of this will happen again) has gotten to her even before he starts predicting her future. Can we believe his prophecy? Who knows. The bomb wasn’t real, and the ‘Adama is a cylon’ thing SEEMS like a stretch, but clearly he has landed a hit on Kara, who we later see is religious. As far as Roslin’s motivations go, another poster hit this on the head: she’s playing Good Cop, but has no compunction about lying to a Cylon before executing him. That doesn’t feel at all inconsistent. And I’ll defend Callum Keith Rennie (the Cylon actor) here too - I dig his performance as the lying ultrareligious Cylon Prophet! That’s a hard gig, but it feels effective to me and definitely differentiated from the other cylons. But I like that dude anyway, he’s a pretty prolific Canadian character actor. Your tastes may vary in terms of performance. Finally some miscellaneous comments: - If you're confused about the Six in Baltar's head - what is she, why is she, what is her motive, why is she so different than the other Six we see - you're on the right track. - I like where this takes Boomer's story - she clearly doesn't know she's a Cylon, but deep down she sort of does? She certainly fears it, and we see that struggle. - The shaky cam thing doesn’t bother me like it does you, but I’m surprised you’re still surprised by it! Definitely an intentional style choice.
Dor
2024-07-17 02:16:17 +0000 UTC“It’s not fun watching reactors make fun of the performance and scenes of something we love, while giggling and talking over key dialogue” Yeah fair, but I mean…. That’s the channel.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-17 01:54:14 +0000 UTCI agree. I'd put this pretty low on the Season 1 rankings. I think the main appeal is that it shows the cylons being much more human than we might expect, with Leoben being absolutely sincere with all his philosophy and spiritualism. That is interesting, but not done well enough to carry a whole episode. It should've been the B plot of some other episode.
Jeff Cornell
2024-07-17 01:20:24 +0000 UTCIt's not fun watching reactors make fun of the performance and scenes of something we love, while giggling and talking over key dialogue. I enjoy most of your feedback and keen eyes for details I might have missed like Mrs. "God free" (how the frack did i miss that) , Outstanding catch. Of course we have the benefit of hindsight and therefore appreciate each scene of this tapestry with that insight providing more meaning to each scene than you are capable of right now. Bad points aside a rewatch of this episode once you have finished the series may have the same effect for the two of you. Thanks for taking the journey with us overprotective gate keepers. Please continue, Its worth it.
M Palmiere
2024-07-17 00:57:57 +0000 UTCWithout going all “second half of TNG Season 3” on you, keep an eye on the end of this season and (if you get there) the start of S2.
Jon1701
2024-07-16 22:03:32 +0000 UTCAgree 100%
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-16 20:19:17 +0000 UTCThe problem I'm seeing with this upcoming one is once again they want a universe before they even make one good film, and sure enough here come 400 other heroes trying to world build. Iron Man 2008 starred exactly one hero. They don't need to keep on announcing 38 projects as part of a universe, they just need to make one good movie and then build upon it.
Ken R
2024-07-16 20:18:37 +0000 UTCA great idea is meaningless without great execution. The episode needs to be made well before we can appreciate the underlying themes. That’s why we are watching TV instead of just reading the screenplay. If you disagree about our opinions on the Cylon actor, direction, and editing choices then fair enough.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-16 19:48:39 +0000 UTC*shot in Cleveland* wasn’t the best wording, but you get what I mean
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-16 19:32:42 +0000 UTCI typically enjoy James Gunn (not always) and I think the casting has been spot on. It’s also being shot in Cleveland so that’s cool
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-16 19:32:14 +0000 UTCIt's really not about me. BSG is widely considered to be one of the greatest scifi productions of all time, and is included on countless critical lists of the greatest television series of all time. It's not like I'm the only one who likes it. It just comes from that time before Marvel when everything wasn't spelled out bluntly at the beginning and interspersed with comic relief every 3 minutes. BSG tackled a lot of topics Trek avoided. It wasn't afraid to be topical. They plowed headfirst into questions of torture, rape, religion, terrorism, juris prudence, personhood, and AI to a depth that Trek never really even attempted. Yeah, some episodes are better than others. But the things that made this particular episode important to the arc were simply missed completely in your analysis. That's why I think its not the best series for your channel. The things that make it good are precisely the things that I don't think you guys care about.
Aaron Wells
2024-07-16 19:25:27 +0000 UTCShe didn't flip, she just realized they actually have a consciousness and believe stuff and now she's thinking about stuff too. He was telling her stuff about her childhood, something Adama probably doesn't even know about and certainly no reason for cylons to. He is telling her he saw God and went mad, but then is telling her about her mother and her future. I agree about "Martha" being dumb, and the DC films are so bad I still might not waste my time on the upcoming Superman film.
Ken R
2024-07-16 19:17:37 +0000 UTCI wish I loved any show enough to cape as hard as Aaron does for BSG. Gotta respect it.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-16 19:05:19 +0000 UTCNo, we caught all that. They are at war and Starbuck is their best pilot. The cylons knowing her and about her past isn’t that shocking. If that’s the reason for her flipping i’d put it on the level of “SAVE MARTHA!”
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-16 19:04:30 +0000 UTCI think you were talking to each other at the moment she started to care about him. It was when he started telling her about her childhood and mother, and she realized he knew her problems and her. This episode was indeed about Starbuck and Leoben, and his mission was to make her realize there is a grand scheme and Starbuck will find Kobol if she believes.
Ken R
2024-07-16 18:42:49 +0000 UTCI agree with all of this, good stuff
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-16 18:34:30 +0000 UTCI've personally always ranked this as one of the weaker episodes of the season, but not the worst. It's a slow burn, and is one of a few episodes of the series that feels particularly 9/11 influenced (most of which are in the first season). I think Red Octobergate has shown that you guys don't like slow burns largely, so I think you will probably see this as the worst episode of the season at the end. I also found the motivations unclear, because it does feel like the characters are doing a bit of a U-turn, but after seeing the episode a few times, I think I know what they were *trying* to go for. - Roslin was only coming in as the good cop because the bad cop routine (torture) wasn't working. She did get him to talk. She had probably already decided to kill him even before playing nice, but she viewed lying to the Leoben Cylon, telling him he would survive even when she knew he would not, as being justified by the fact that getting the information could save them. - Starbuck's motivations are less clear, but I suspect what they were going for is that he had either earned some respect from her by getting through the torture, or that he had connected to her on a level of faith, and faith is important to Starbuck (part of her character bible) so it is something that she would understand and empathize with, even if it wasn't her religion. However, this really feels in the episode like it comes out of the blue, as though there was a scene cut out that might explain this. And you finally see things happening on Caprica - the Cylons ordered Sharon to convince Helo to settle down with her and start a life in a cabin. Instead she goes against that and goes on the run, knowing that the Cylons would be pursuing them even more relentlessly by her going against their orders. She does this after her thoughts of her and Helo together. It raises the question at this point whether Cylons can fall in love, and if she has actually fallen in love with Helo for real (as hinted by this episode, she was just supposed to pretend to fall in love with him, and to get him to actually fall in love with her). Ultimately the episode raises a lot of interesting questions about the nature of Cylons and what they can do and feel - how close to humans are they? It does this with Leoben by addressing things like feeling pain, hunger, and having faith. It does this with Sharon on Caprica by asking if Cylons have the capacity to love. So the two ideas tie together nicely - in theory. It's a bit of a shame it didn't turn out a bit better, because the ingredients were there. The A and B plots both are asking interesting questions about the humanity of Cylons, and what it is to be human, but it got bogged down by all the torture scenes and slow pacing. I enjoyed it more than you guys, but as I said, it has those weaknesses and I agree regarding those.
Michael Ducharme
2024-07-16 18:29:03 +0000 UTCI will say this: I don't recall this show being really bad about leaving things hanging, but some of the seeds that get planted in these episodes don't sprout for awhile.
Angelaina Marie
2024-07-16 18:01:15 +0000 UTCI think this is the wrong show for you guys to watch. You clearly don't understand or appreciate it. This entire episode was an exercise in ontology. Its a drama. Its not funny. You openly complain that it's "depressing". Watching you laugh at something with zero comedic value is just a big clash...nails on a chalkboard. Maybe stick to something lighter and simpler, where there are no considerations for morality or ontology under the lens to be completely disregarded. Eventually in the Trek universe you will come to the animated series "Lower Decks", which you will probably love, and will be a much better fit here. Its actually pretty great.
Aaron Wells
2024-07-16 17:29:40 +0000 UTCYeah, this wasn't a great episode. You're right, everyone did not seem to be acting right.
wildhunt1973
2024-07-16 17:05:07 +0000 UTCI think we are bought in on the conceit of the series and most of its characters. We’ve enjoyed most of the season. This one was a miss for us, but it happens. Unless the remaining 5 episodes aren’t on the level of episodes 5-7, I want to continue. Pending video performance of course.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-16 16:19:09 +0000 UTCThey may need 2 seasons
startrekiborg
2024-07-16 16:17:30 +0000 UTCYeah, this was a return to Shakyville with the directing style, and Josh, you hit the nail on the head when you said the show is taking itself too seriously before it's earned it. This episode plants some seeds that grow in importance later, but they couched it in a boring, oddly-written, amateurishly-directed story. And while the Caprica story with Helo and Sharon is a slow build (and will eventually resolve), it's dragged on way too long. That's why I originally suggested you give just the first season a try, because in my opinion it's worth it in the end. If you're not bought in by the season finale, maybe it's time to move on.
Jeff
2024-07-16 15:53:19 +0000 UTCIf this show had come out 10 years later, I bet there would have been nudity and more sex because the limits for what you could do on basic cable had lessened at that point
Jonathan
2024-07-16 15:49:15 +0000 UTCThe SYFY channel isn't network TV, but BSG didn't have nudity and made up curse words (I'll never hear them talking about oil freaking without laughing), but GoT was made by a horn high school teenager.
startrekiborg
2024-07-16 15:31:03 +0000 UTCIt's okay. I find certain things about this series to be annoying: sniveling Baltar for 1, and the 6 inside his head for another. Like you, I just want be given some clearer guidance as to what she and her duplicates are like and then maybe it will all make sense to me.
Collin Freeman
2024-07-16 15:30:42 +0000 UTCI had completely forgotten any details from this episode other than the Boomer scene with Baltar. I didn’t watch season 1 live and have binged it every time before now that I’ve watched it. This was probably when I started checking email etc. during the binge. Usually it’s a warning sign to me whenever an episode starts with a dream sequence.
Jonathan
2024-07-16 13:06:21 +0000 UTC
