UNCUT REACTION - Star Trek TNG S3E20 - Tin Man
Added 2024-06-30 23:57:49 +0000 UTCDue to a shortened recording day last week, we weren't able to record the discussion on this one yet. We will do so on our next recording day and get it posted.
Comments
I’m so grateful you do this!!!!
David Martin
2025-02-24 21:46:02 +0000 UTCI think I'm with you!
Jovet
2024-07-11 06:25:34 +0000 UTCSome very good points!
Comrade Wireless Caller
2024-07-06 18:29:17 +0000 UTCWhen you said this isn't your kind of Sci-fi, I think that explains why I like this one so much. This IS my kind of sci-fi. I'm fascinated by Gumtoo the alien creature because I like sci-fi that presents fantastical creatures and races like that as an idea to explore. Something that's so ancient and foreign and enigmatic and fascinating. I can see why you found the score to be over the top, but for me, I totally bought into the over the topness of the score to the point where it makes me cry because it sells how wonderous this creature is. I guess I'm like Tam in a way, I would love to live aboard this thing and learn about it's life and it's race and all of its other mysteries.
BN13
2024-07-04 16:37:20 +0000 UTCI didn't even remember this episode. I wonder how many more times that's going to happen. There's something lacking in this episode for me. The telepath guy's character is interesting, and they did put some effort into a backstory. But something about them makes me a little indifferent. It's not a bad episode imo, though. I'd say it's a 6 out of 10 sort of watch. But YMMV.
Boggle
2024-07-04 04:00:57 +0000 UTCWe only enjoyed a couple episodes of the first season and the YouTube videos didn’t do well
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-03 14:28:58 +0000 UTCI wouldn’t go that far lol. BOBW is the best score ever done. And I gotta say, revisiting Time Squared, I forgot how eerie and tense that score was!
Chris S.
2024-07-03 12:20:23 +0000 UTCEven with Time Squared or The Best of Both Worlds?
paultardspambot .
2024-07-03 07:53:55 +0000 UTCFerengi would have been the most logical
paultardspambot .
2024-07-03 07:53:02 +0000 UTChuh. never noticed it
paultardspambot .
2024-07-03 07:51:33 +0000 UTCEarshot was way better though.
paultardspambot .
2024-07-03 07:50:17 +0000 UTCI wonder if the Peter Pan thing is intentional, like trying to show a person stuck in a child like state? I never thought that myself
paultardspambot .
2024-07-03 07:49:18 +0000 UTCThey started Buffy but gave up? Why? They didn't like it?
paultardspambot .
2024-07-03 07:47:05 +0000 UTC(I apologize for taking so long to comment on this one.) “Tin Man” was the third Star Trek episode based on a pre-existing, non-Star Trek short story, following “Arena” and “The Slaver Weapon.” Writers Dennis Russell Bailey and David Bischoff adapted it from their 1976 short story “Tin Woodman,” which they had expanded into a novel in 1979; the short story version had received a Nebula Award nomination. Lisa Putman White was an uncredited cowriter on the episode, but Dennis Russell Bailey adopted the pen name Dennis Putman Bailey for the on-screen credits to acknowledge White’s contribution. This was the episode which its writers submitted because of their strong dislike of the previous season’s “Samaritan Snare.” I have not read Bailey and Bischoff’s prose "Tin Woodman" original, so I do not know what insight it gives into the meaning of the "Wizard of Oz" reference. In the TNG episode, the name in-universe may simply be a random code name– perhaps Starfleet encountered another mysterious lifeform they called “Scarecrow” the previous year? Michael Cavanaugh (Captain Robert DeSoto) later appeared in “Conduit,” the fourth episode of Season 1 of "The X-Files." “Encounter at Farpoint” had previously established DeSoto as captain of the Hood – he was the captain whom Riker famously refused to allow to beam down to Altair III when he was DeSoto’s first officer on the Hood – but this is the first time we have seen him. Harry Groener (Tam Elbrun) would have a recurring role on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" at a later point in the series than Alex and Josh reached. His most recent film role was as U.S. Senator Gale W. McGee (D-Wyoming) in "Oppenheimer." With Troi in a strong supporting role, Marina Sirtis is so excellent in this episode as to make the weakness of her performance in “The Offspring” inexplicable. Perhaps she was simply having a bad week? “Tin Man” is only the third TNG episode with a score by someone other than Dennis McCarthy or Ron Jones. Fred Steiner, who had scored such TOS episodes as “Amok Time,” wrote the music for “Code of Honor” in Season 1; the original plan was to have McCarthy, Jones and Steiner rotate on the show, but TNG’s producers found Steiner’s music for “Code of Honor” too old-fashioned and employed primarily McCarthy and Jones going forward. Composer George Romanis received the score assignment for “Too Short a Season” as a favor from Season 1 Supervising Producer Robert Justman. Ron Jones was unavailable to work on “Tin Man” and S3E22 because he was attending a composers’ seminar in the Soviet Union. He had cleared the trip in advance with the TNG production team, but the production schedule changed, and they became upset when they learned Jones was unavailable. This was one of multiple events and issues that would hasten Jones’ departure from the series. Dennis McCarthy scored S3E22, but “Tin Man” marks the TNG debut of composer Jay Chattaway, who would eventually succeed Jones as McCarthy’s alternate after Jones’ firing. For better or worse, Chattaway’s distinctive score for “Tin Man” (the first Star Trek score Josh has ever criticized as overdone) is not typical of his later work on the show, when, like McCarthy, he would buckle down to creating “wallpaper” for Rick Berman.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-07-03 03:57:12 +0000 UTCAlex you’ll have plenty of to cry over in a few eps
Scarpad’s Domain
2024-07-03 02:02:05 +0000 UTCData was the Tin man enhanced by his contact with the alien
Scarpad’s Domain
2024-07-03 01:58:17 +0000 UTCNot to mention that introverted doesn't equal socially awkward.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-02 23:41:56 +0000 UTCUhm, just throwing this out there, but... you can be good looking and confident and still introverted you know... not sure why you connect those three.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-02 23:41:17 +0000 UTCI am watching for the first time with you guys, and I do really enjoy you guys. But, you talk and laugh during so much of the lines that I can not hear the lines. And some are serious scenes. I HATE having captions on but it is either that or I may watch on my own. But your discussions episodes are always great!!!
MRB1216
2024-07-02 20:27:39 +0000 UTCHey Guys! New patreon member. Just a quick comment. Firstly, thanks for watching. It has been many years since I sat and watched all these episodes. I like watching with you and hearing your thoughts as the episodes progress, although a few times I find myself saying, "be quiet" as if you can hear me when you talk over dialogue LOL! It is interesting to see them again from when I was in my 20s and after all these years remembering which ones I initially liked and which I disliked. I will say, I wish you two wouldn't worry so much about how people will respond to your reaction or feelings on an episode while watching. I feel like it actually impacts your own reaction. Just enjoy the ride. You are truly going to love some and hate some, as we all do. Looking forward to years of Star Trek watching with you!
Michael Rhine
2024-07-02 19:21:01 +0000 UTCAgreed. Aside from the main theme…I barely notice or remember TNG music…its basically just background filler, unremarkable. TOS movies however are masterpieces with music
Derek Orr
2024-07-02 18:39:49 +0000 UTCInteresting as to me I see star trek becoming hijacked by showcasing socially awkward…Barclay in TNG and then Discovery with lots of characters and then also getting into the flashy action stuff in the kelvin movies. Where as TOS and TOS movies and much of TNG felt more like traditional TV and storytelling where people are extraverted and good looking and confident etc
Derek Orr
2024-07-02 18:33:29 +0000 UTCNot about TNG, but Midnight Mass IS perfection.
Ca$hWednesday
2024-07-02 16:18:53 +0000 UTCYea I did too. The music enhanced the atmosphere and I think makes it stand out.
Angelaina Marie
2024-07-02 16:17:14 +0000 UTCGood for you for recognizing Russel, it seemed like he and La Forge might have a history. Maybe he’s a favorite, or, maybe Geordi is a cruel taskmaster. The score would have been improved if an instrumental version of “You Spin Me Round” played when Gomtuu spun the Enterprise. That’s what pops into my head when I see Riker and Picard tripping out.
Leo Greenwood
2024-07-02 16:04:21 +0000 UTCThat may be so.. but nobody did. And now that other people ARE in charge... you see the result. And I've seen enough interviews with Braga, Behr and Berman to know that there were forces pushing for "nutrek" already back then, and Berman was trying his best to satisfy modern wants of networks with staying true to Roddenberry's original vision. It was a balance act that not even Roddenberry managed to do well, he always attacked the networks and lost control. Doing that balancing act for four shows over decades is noteworthy, and quite frankly I don't think at the time there was anybody around that could have pulled it off.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-02 11:05:28 +0000 UTCHaving listened to your comments post-episode, I get that you weren't as engaged with this story, and I remember not feeling much about it when I saw it in the 90s. Tam Elbrum has, curiously, grown on me in a very deep way. I find his performance quite moving, as well as Deanna's. And the score was the first I sought out when I realised many of the TNG episode soundtracks had been released as albums. I found it on Spotify. The woodwind stuff was less interesting than the bombastic attack of the Romulans. Fantastic!
Gavin Scott
2024-07-02 10:11:06 +0000 UTCI think the old uniforms are supposed to enlisted specialists versus full officers who went to Starfleet Academy and graduated which is super hard to get into.
paultardspambot .
2024-07-02 09:48:04 +0000 UTCThe guest actor's fine it's just a bad script, and for a guest character we're supposed to care about he gets little in the way of dialogue or character development or knowing about him other this one specific way that makes him alien.
paultardspambot .
2024-07-02 09:45:01 +0000 UTCAnd by that I mean there barely is one. "We've got to get to tis thing before the Romulans do" while slowly revealing the degree of connection and nature of the creature. The latter aspect of that could have been good but its like a good central idea they couldn't come up with enough of a plot for so they did the bear minimum plot to create interests and stake that at best rises to the level of mildly curious if you've never seen it before. Really does not hold up at all on a rewatch.
paultardspambot .
2024-07-02 09:42:35 +0000 UTCI get its about an alien in his society connecting with a bizarre lonely alien and finding peace. It's not a terrible idea, the surrounding plot and execution was poor.
paultardspambot .
2024-07-02 09:40:14 +0000 UTCIt's a character story about a character who had potential but winds up being boring because we dont care about him and barely know who he is. And we never really care about Tinman or feel there's any real threat to it. It's not even clear why the romulans are so interested over a scientific oddity that was in neutral space and it doesn't seem like something the Romulans would go to war for unless they're just desperate to provoke a war any way they can which has never been the Romulan thing, its all about brinksmanship and schemes and plots.
paultardspambot .
2024-07-02 09:32:04 +0000 UTCPulp fiction came out five years later. To me this decaf trek. Not a bad premise but the story is just dull. The Romulans come in as a generic threat to raise the stakes but it never feels like there are any stakes. It could have just as easily been the Ferengi and you don't have to change the story at all other then that these ferengi are claiming it rather then the ferengi alliance (all ferengi ships are privately owned but licensed by the Ferengi Alliance which means an action by an individual ferengi ship and crew isn't an act of war by the Ferengi Alliance) Its not terrible. Just Dull. Personally I enjoyed Captain's Holiday much more then this. It wasn't even bad enough to be especially bad. Just not one I want to rewatch.
paultardspambot .
2024-07-02 09:28:04 +0000 UTCI think the intentional camp aspect is what you missed. The story was trying to have a TOS with Picard rompy campy feel to it. I think you were guys were looking at it entirely straight which lead to you hating it so much and for technical reason the fan doesn't care about much because if its generally good, it doesn't have to be great for every episode and the Fans liked how it could be more then one thing, more then one type of episode or story, not always adventure like TOS which conformed to the market demands of the time for a new type of tv show. You couldn't get away with character pieces, everything had to be exciting action and stakes (which lead to redshirts dying which you don't see in the same way in TNG. Like if you had to serve under Picard or Kirk, you choose Picard because the odds are you more likely to survive under Picard. TNG had proof people cared about the lore so the Federation could play a bigger role and it and the ship were vastly more powerful and could use that lens to tell stories and expand the lore and the universe in a more conscious way. TOS WAS more consistenly exciting and dramatic no doubt. That probably makes for more consistency which cold make people like it better, TNG can tell more types of stories but there are risks in doing so which is why people call it "low caf" trek, it's not a pure adventure show
paultardspambot .
2024-07-02 08:48:20 +0000 UTCyou think in terms of filming and cuts and technical things which just isn't the way fans are used to discussing the series. That makes it hard to predict because a lot of fans just weren't looking through that lens, so something like Captain's Holiday, you dig the fun campy vibe.
paultardspambot .
2024-07-02 08:39:38 +0000 UTCI've known there were polarized opinions of this episode for years, and I never really understood the vitriol some people have for it. I mean I get that Tam is a very abrasive character, but who wouldn't be with the thoughts of everyone around you driving you mad? And as for the Gomtuu story, maybe it's not some top tier story, but it's unique and certainly not terrible. Gomtuu's appearance was actually based on a peach pit. The idea of a living starship was fairly new in sci fi at the time, and would be explored a lot in the 90s in shows like Babylon 5 and of course Farscape. Gomtuu reminds me a lot of Moya, though I guess it's better to say Moya reminds me of Gomtuu. As I said, Tam Elbrun can be a very abrasive character. I'm a fairly introverted person and I can get utterly exhausted dealing with people at times. I can only imaging how much my sanity would suffer if I had the thoughts of everyone around me flooding my head at every second. It's a wonder the guy isn't completely crazy by now, so I can forgive him being a bit of a dick. Harry Groener is perhaps best known for playing mayor Wilkins in Buffy S3. One of the show's more entertaining villains. As an above comment pointed out this episode has some similarity to an episode of that show in which Buffy inadvertently gained telepathic powers. At first it seemed fun to be able to read people's minds, but nearly drove her mad by the end before the effect was reversed. As for Jay Chattaway's music, I don't mind it. It has it's moments where it works quite well, depending on the tone of the episode, but like others, I believe Ron Jones is the best composer of this era of Trek TV, and I'd love to hear what he would have come up with for DS9/Voyager/Enterprise had he remained part of the team. Data had a great role in this episode as well, and especially that last scene in the observation lounge was great. Decent episode IMO.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-07-02 07:40:30 +0000 UTCI appreciate the clarification, but I've never moved my own "goalposts", as it were. It's always been my opinion that all of the "Golden Age" Trek shows (TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT) didn't get REALLY good until their respective S4's. Sure, there are some great episodes in the earlier seasons, even some all-time greats, but for me, S4 of those shows is when they all step up to another level. I just don't like my opinion getting lumped in with everyone else's and subsequently attacked as a result.
Michael Mannisto
2024-07-02 06:26:15 +0000 UTC@Timothy Nikiforovs We'll have to continue this discussion after, say, early S7.
Jovet
2024-07-02 06:19:16 +0000 UTC@Michael Mannisto Not that my opinion really matters, but I agree you're not spoiling anything. General or vague comments aren't spoilers. But, don't take the "goalposts" observations/criticisms personally. It's not just you, it's a whole (dare I say) *collective* of various people who have written the likes of "S1 stinks, wait for S2" and then "Wait for season 3!" and then "The back half of S3 is when it actually gets good!!"... and now we're seeing "Season 4 is a whole other league of good!". I don't believe the various people writing these things intend this effect, but the goalposts ARE moving. It doesn't make me angry, but it does make me bemused. It's a puzzling yet complex phenomenon which I believe is worthy of some thought from those involved.
Jovet
2024-07-02 06:18:02 +0000 UTCYeah, both Tam and Gomtuu definitely both survived. They found each other, so they could heal each other's despair.
Jovet
2024-07-02 06:04:42 +0000 UTCI thought of that episode as well. However Tam didn't choose suicide. He found peace by staying with Gumtuu, which in turn gave Gomtuu purpose. They survived as Data was transported back after the star went supernova.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-07-02 05:32:10 +0000 UTCThey designed it after a peach pit
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-07-02 05:27:14 +0000 UTCYeah I get that, and it certainly doesn't help when you expend energy trying to connect to people so you don't become a complete hermit, and you end up dealing with shitty people who make it all the easier to cut people off again. I think everyone would prefer community on some level, but different people draw different lines in regards to what they'll tolerate for that sense of community.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-07-02 05:26:54 +0000 UTCLol what spoilers? I mentioned nothing specific, and everyone has already told them that the latter seasons are better (which is an opinion, as you pointed out). Stop trying to make something out of nothing. Ya'll real upset over "Tin Man". Are you sure that's the hill you want to die on?
Michael Mannisto
2024-07-02 05:18:06 +0000 UTCI also think it was a case of a square peg in a round hole trying to turn Picard into Indiana Jones
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-07-02 05:15:08 +0000 UTCWhy are you giving your opinion about multiple seasons in the future when these reactors do not want spoilers?
SwAeromotion
2024-07-02 05:07:36 +0000 UTCHodgeheg!
MadScientist
2024-07-02 04:59:02 +0000 UTCVery serviceable episode. The technobabble at times drags the episode (and yes it sucks to be LeVar Burton for that). The scoring isn't the best. I find it especially odd when the wood winds are used not on Tin Man. There I think it did its job (still not great, but less out of place). But the use in sickbay where we are hearing about Tin Man from another, just seemed out of place, versus the score when on Tin Man and experienced by both Tam and by Data felt more authentic. Harry Groener performance is good in the episode. And we get a real feeling on why Tam is so abrasive. And his scenes with Data, Tin Man and Troi really work. This is very possibly the first episode where I really dig the connection between Data and Troi which are not an obvious duo. But it really works. The Romulan side of things works from a visual point of view (thank you Rob Legato), but the Commander of the week fell flat. Solid 3 out of 5 stars for me.
Mark Wood
2024-07-02 04:03:04 +0000 UTCI always really liked this episode myself. A story about a very troubled man in search of some kind of peace. On another note in what I have always thought was a rather curious and interesting cross series comparisons. The website Women at Warp compared the episode with the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Earshot." "Tam is a lifelong Betazoid telepath, while Buffy suddenly gains the ability after coming in contact with a demon." While Buffy's telepathy isn't permanent, it causes her to react the same as Tam, isolating herself to escape the pain caused by constant chatter in her head. Ultimately, Buffy recovers, but not before using her telepathy to prevent a classmate's suicide. Tam, meanwhile, chooses suicide by joining with the Tin Man lifeform. While he doesn't appear in "Earshot," Harry Groener, who plays Tam, also played the Mayor of Sunnydale in this season of Buffy.
Comrade Wireless Caller
2024-07-02 04:01:53 +0000 UTCIt’s clearly a space hedgehog.
Pokeysaurus
2024-07-02 02:30:17 +0000 UTC@Dan Halstead Or a Bezos??
Jovet
2024-07-02 02:11:47 +0000 UTC🧠💥
Jovet
2024-07-02 02:03:57 +0000 UTCI had the opposite reaction. I knew I'd never be Kirk but I could definitely be Wesley, lol. And if I could do that, maybe I could eventually pull off being a Picard.
Dan Halstead
2024-07-02 02:03:04 +0000 UTCEveryone has anxiety at least sometimes. For some, it's lot harder to control or ignore than it is for others. There are a lot of "pressures" we put on ourselves that don't help. I don't think I can describe my anxiety as "socially crippling" but I was way more intense 20-30 years ago than I am now. Luckily I've mellowed out a lot. (Without the use of drugs.)
Jovet
2024-07-02 02:02:29 +0000 UTCWell, Betazoids all have black eyes... so that's not going to work. And it's CREW, not "troops."
Darin Wagner
2024-07-02 01:52:23 +0000 UTC@Andreas Schmitt Yes and no. Someone else could have done the same job as Berman, and may have done it better. (Or, maybe worse.) We'll never know.
Jovet
2024-07-02 01:51:11 +0000 UTC@Chris S. I'm anxious as heck to get to that one episode where the score is everything.
Jovet
2024-07-02 01:49:13 +0000 UTC@Chris S. TNG is, by far, my favorite Star Trek. I can think of three? episodes I really don't enjoy. Nobody else can take my enjoyment of the show away from me. If we DID like all the same things, life would be pretty dang boring.
Jovet
2024-07-02 01:48:26 +0000 UTCOr you just DON'T TELL your troops you're telepathic and able to read their minds... and they're not likely to ASK right? 😈
Jovet
2024-07-02 01:41:05 +0000 UTCYeah, there's Nothing left in this season, nope...nada.... siltch.... fire!
James Smith
2024-07-01 22:33:42 +0000 UTCThe debate about whether or not Captain Picard - played by the same man who plays Professor X - would be okay with someone reading his thoughts... xD
Rj Simas
2024-07-01 21:15:06 +0000 UTCI would kill either him or myself if I was trapped in an elevator with him. He needs serious Xanax, or quaaludes or something.
Ken R
2024-07-01 20:23:16 +0000 UTCWell, we've seen Betazoids who are restrained and we've seen ones who aren't (like Lwaxana Troi). I was thinking more along the lines of the practical and tactical. Being able to maintain telepathic communication with an away team in the event that regular communications are down would seem to me to be an advantage. We saw in "Tin Man" the advantages against the Romulans that Tam provided. Assuming a Betazoid captain considered the privacy of others, I don't see a downside.
Darin Wagner
2024-07-01 19:30:48 +0000 UTCHaven't seen this for a long time. So it was kind of new for me. It was okay but much to TMP like. Poor Tam. Decker merged at least with a sexy probe looking like his girlfriend.
Sam Langanke
2024-07-01 18:53:45 +0000 UTCI was on the brink of leaving earlier this year but then you watched BSG and now with adding GoT the channel is watching 50/50 great tv vs TNG.
Ken R
2024-07-01 18:20:01 +0000 UTC@35:45 - that is on purpose! It should show that the monitor they use is 3D. That is reached by showing different "perspectives" from different camera angles!
MadScientist
2024-07-01 17:51:01 +0000 UTCMy primary guess is because they really didn't like the Chemistry between Picard & Vash.
Paul
2024-07-01 16:17:39 +0000 UTCThanks!
Aramis Calcutt
2024-07-01 16:14:51 +0000 UTCNah. Might as well quit now.
Column Meanie
2024-07-01 14:23:03 +0000 UTCI gotta say Im on your page. Im much more outgoing now, but when I was youngI had similar issues. Thats the reason I got into Star Trek. I wanted to be Captain Kirk. Bold, courageous, commanding, and, most of all, a hit with the ladies. Trek gave me an escape. Unfortunately pop culture has hijacked Trek to make it flashy and cool, and it was never supposed to be that. It was ours. Something for geeks or nerds that had social issues. But anyway, I’m with you.
Chris S.
2024-07-01 13:43:19 +0000 UTCDon't get mad at other people for their opinions. Be mad at yourself for being bothered by them. Your anger does not invalidate my opinion. Grow up.
Michael Mannisto
2024-07-01 13:04:32 +0000 UTCCompletely understand where you are coming from Steven. Glad you were able to push yourself out of it.
Ryan Caulfield
2024-07-01 12:56:09 +0000 UTCThis is one of those episodes that I'm sure I liked as a kid, but I can definitely appreciate more now as an adult. As a very introverted and sensitive person, I can totally understand that feeling of being so drained from dealing with too many people that you just want the world to go away. And the idea that two lonely wounded beings could come together and heal each other because perhaps purpose is someone to care for, hits me much harder now as well. The ending scene with Troi and Data is also very sweet. And I enjoy the score actually. My only criticisms are that the Romulan stuff sometimes just feels like wheel spinning, and you kind of know what is going to happen once Tam offers to beam over. Also, Tam is weirdly dressed like Peter Pan for some reason. Overall, not the best episode, but one I think is a little bit underrated.
Ryan Caulfield
2024-07-01 12:51:29 +0000 UTCHe was the man in charge, I'm not talking about the writing. Rick kept Star Trek going financially, dealing with the BS of television. And let's not forget that he saw Star Trek fatigue coming and wanted a break before Enterprise. Yet he was forced to do the show right away, and then the ones who had not wanted a break, ended up cancelling Enterprise. If Berman has been the one making the decision, Star Trek would have continued for quite a while.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 12:36:33 +0000 UTCI love it too. I have the score on CD(now on digital) and its exotic and action packed. He’s pretty good.
Chris S.
2024-07-01 12:21:28 +0000 UTCYes, good point. The sounds of the creature inside were made by putting a stethoscope up to a person’s stomach as they were eating pizza and recording it. Now THAT is when Hollywood was creative, and made a dollar go far!
Chris S.
2024-07-01 12:20:03 +0000 UTCIts all good. We all have different opinions and thats why I like being here. Some people actually get annoyed when you don’t like exactly what they do, which makes no sense. But like I’ve said before, its nice to get a different perspective. The Data/Tam interactions probably did help save this episode from total destruction. Keep going guys! I liked it a lot more than you, but who cares? Thats why we’re here.
Chris S.
2024-07-01 12:17:45 +0000 UTC😂
Chris S.
2024-07-01 12:12:45 +0000 UTCthey call it tin man, i call it spaceship pinecone
Dark Kronis
2024-07-01 11:44:49 +0000 UTCNot much left? Really?
Sam Langanke
2024-07-01 10:51:34 +0000 UTC'Season three. Let's go.' So we get a new song each season?
Sam Langanke
2024-07-01 10:42:38 +0000 UTCWell... I mean when you get into the nuance of things, while he *generally* tried to keep the ship afloat, he also made some pretty big boneheaded decisions over those years, too. It was a collaborative work between the producers. Piller, Behr, Berman, and having a solid writing team for TNG and DS9. It would be interesting to tally up all the episodes through TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise and see just how many fall above the line and below the line in terms of success/quality.
Steven Johnson
2024-07-01 10:27:23 +0000 UTCit's not quite THAT extreme for me but I know what it can feel like. So I sympathize with Tam a lot. Especially imagining growing up like that from childhood, being drained like that from birth. When he said "BECAUSE I'M NOT A NICE MAN".. I felt that.. because sometimes you don't want to be nice, because you want people to just go away.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 10:25:09 +0000 UTCIn my teens I developed massive, crippling, social anxiety. It took the better part of ten years for me to finally push myself out of it, but even then... To this day, I don't do well in groups. It is immensely draining... and that feeling alone makes you hurt, because you know that you shouldn't feel that way about people, but there it is. Having to "decompress" to such an extreme after coming home from working in a check stand all day.. There were days i'd communicate with my family in non-verbal grunts and hand gestures.
Steven Johnson
2024-07-01 10:23:25 +0000 UTCYeah I think it takes certain personality types to fully connect with this storyline.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 10:16:30 +0000 UTCHonestly I'm getting a tad annoyed by this as well... Star Trek is one of the most amazing things on television and I wish we had anything like it today. Yet the more we progress into it, the more people talk about it like half of it is anything from shit to mediocre. Seriously guys? Maybe you should all go back to watching Boba Fett, She Hulk and ST Discovery... Sometimes...
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 10:14:29 +0000 UTCSpeaking as someone who went through officer training, I personally think it's be awful. It's hard enough to get people under your command to trust in you and gain their loyalty. Them knowing that you can read every thought they have would undermind that in ways I cannot even imagine... Great for a counselor maybe, but absolutely awful for being in command IMO
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 10:12:35 +0000 UTCI think if you're a strongly introverted person you feel way more sympathetic towards Tam. You have to know what it feels like when the presense of many humans around you totally drains you and makes you want to run away.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 10:08:55 +0000 UTCYou definitely wouldn't like me then, Ken.. There's a lot of that guy in me :P
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 10:06:54 +0000 UTCWhatever people say about Rick Berman.. let's not forget that without the man none of us would be here. There wouldn't be a golden age of Star Trek without Berman.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 10:05:58 +0000 UTCDidn't people also collaborate for the sound design, when they're aboard Gomtu?
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 10:04:17 +0000 UTC@Josh funniliy enough I barely remember any TNG scores, just a very select few episodes..this is one of them, and I thought the choice of wood instruments was perfect to show the alieness of the creature. You guys also haven't talked about the sound design. From what I remember, I THINK they literally put a microphone to their stomach and mixed that with other sounds to give the sound effects of Gomto once they're aboard the ship, to give it that "living organic spaceship" feeling. Almost like being in the stomach of a whale.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 10:03:29 +0000 UTCConsidering I've never head anybody hate the episode before that... plenty. My biggest issue is still not tha anybody dislikes it. I just still haven't heard a single argument on WHY that actually made sense to me. Previously when our guys or someone in the community disliked an episode, I could understand the reasons... but for that one all the reasons seemed so vague or could apply to plenty of other episodes that were loved for seemingly the same reasons. So that one was just weird.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 09:58:21 +0000 UTCAs an introvert, and having known people who were introverts AND hypersensitive people, this episodes connects very much. I don't think you guys know how it feels to be crushed by having to many people around, how it can drain you, take all your energy and completely mess you up. How much you long for a place where there's nobody around for kilometers, just that special someone that just understands you without a word. For people like that, this episode is very very special.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 09:57:15 +0000 UTCIt's a wonderful episode about being a loner, loneliness, belonging, finding your place in the world, and personally, I think the score is absolutely perfect
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 09:48:47 +0000 UTCI'm so confused. I always thought this was one of the best and most memorable scores on TNG...
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 09:46:15 +0000 UTCReally? Wasn't this one of the most praised scores? I mean the wind instruments were Tin Mans's theme basically. Every trek fan recognizes this score. I so far have heard nothing but praise for this score. I'm absolutely confused that people don't like it. It's unique and wonderful and emphasises the alien-ness of the creature so well.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-07-01 09:42:14 +0000 UTCI love this score. And I love you guys, but man you talked way too much through great parts of this episode.
Gavin Scott
2024-07-01 08:52:21 +0000 UTCThe viewscreen on the bridge is 3D. The angle seen on the screen often changes to match the angle at which the bridge scenes are shot. For instance, in the first shot the Romulan is seen slightly from below, since the bridge shot was a lower angle, and then he appeared to be more full front when we saw the viewscreen from a forward view. It's subtle, but if you look out for it, you'll notice it.
Andy Frankham-Allen
2024-07-01 08:29:14 +0000 UTCI used to think that too...
Nolan
2024-07-01 07:31:26 +0000 UTCAll these years, I had actually never noticed that until I started to wonder about it with Lwaxana's last appearance. People with black pupils creep me out, so you think I would have noticed or read about it sooner.
Jovet
2024-07-01 07:29:30 +0000 UTCLOL!!
Jovet
2024-07-01 07:26:23 +0000 UTCI disagree strongly. Why weren't you sympathetic towards Tam? Don't you know what he's going through?
Jovet
2024-07-01 07:26:03 +0000 UTC@Target Audience Do let us know when it quits you. 😏
Jovet
2024-07-01 07:24:50 +0000 UTCNot sure if two and two were put together from earlier episodes, but Betazoids have black eyes, or at least all pupil and no iris. It's harder to tell with Troi, but all Betazoid actors wear dark contact lenses. It's much more obvious with Tam in this episode, and with Lwaxana.
JGoss
2024-07-01 07:11:45 +0000 UTCDon't worry about Chattaway and 'out there' scores like this. He experimented with his first score, and reins it in pretty much from here on out. I'm sure Rick Berman shot him a stink eye or two. Enjoy these "in your face" musical scores while they last. Spoiler alert: they don't.
JGoss
2024-07-01 07:08:41 +0000 UTCI think Harry Groening is as great in this! From the moment he spun around on Data, It’s rare to see him turn in a bad performance.
Philbot
2024-07-01 04:54:41 +0000 UTCYou like this way more than I did, and I’m glad you did. It made it easier to watch. I think you’re going to have a several episodes with tons of patron takes over the next few weeks as you finish the season out. It’s going to be a bit of a roller coaster so strap in and enjoy!
Brian Moore
2024-07-01 04:32:12 +0000 UTCYeah thats pretty much it, this was an episode, with some good moments. Again its not needed, but its not minded either. Just a solid filler episode.
Sequiro
2024-07-01 04:22:50 +0000 UTCWe will never quit Star Trek.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-01 03:59:55 +0000 UTCSome of the shots in this episode definitely felt very cinematic
Doug
2024-07-01 03:31:40 +0000 UTCI think they had higher expectations for this episode and tried making it more cinematic, Excelsior ship model, V'ger explosion, more experimental score to try to keep a sense of urgency. It may never have reached these goals but it works for me somehow. Not my favorite by any means but definitely Star Trek.
Stephen Wright
2024-07-01 03:15:53 +0000 UTCYeah I give this one a solid B+ for all the reasons already mentioned. Tbh after the big three episodes there’s not much left in this season to blow your hair back. Pretty mid. Might as well set the self destruct now and save yourselves the grief. 😉
Column Meanie
2024-07-01 03:10:55 +0000 UTCYes if it was changed to the Klingons the reason for the encounter would need to be adjusted.
Jonathan
2024-07-01 02:54:46 +0000 UTCHATE when that happens! 🤬
Jovet
2024-07-01 02:54:38 +0000 UTCThe Romulans were a far better choice here. The Romulans want exactly what they accused the Federation of: to exploit. If *they* couldn't have Tin Man, then nobody would. The Klingons don't seem to have that same mentality. (Kruge perhaps a rare exception.) Klingons have a "power through brute conquest" mentality, whereas the Romulans are a "power at any cost" mentality.
Jovet
2024-07-01 02:52:14 +0000 UTCThe pan flute musical accompaniment does not serve the episode well imo. Had the Betazoid been less annoying, less of an adversarial element or perhaps more sympathetic, I think the concept would have carried more - Race against the Romulans for a discovery that could shift the balance?? How that didn't turn out well is a shame.
#MaxwellDidNothingWrong
2024-07-01 02:48:36 +0000 UTCfeel the many technical jargon geordie has to say throughout the episode slows it down. like they needed more scenes as the episode was too short
Narnman
2024-07-01 02:45:18 +0000 UTCWhew... for a minute there I thought you quit Star Trek after Captain's Holiday. Lol
Mike Rogers
2024-07-01 02:43:06 +0000 UTC(Don't feel bad. I'm almost-but-not-quite a TNG encyclopedia and I had to look up his name because I couldn't remember it.)
Jovet
2024-07-01 02:36:11 +0000 UTC@Jeffrey I don't really notice the scores often, either. Sometimes some motifs show up that I recognize and appreciate, but I don't care who wrote it or scored it. I like the atmosphere this windy score added to the combination of very-alien Tam and very-alien Gomtuu.
Jovet
2024-07-01 02:35:25 +0000 UTCWhen I watched this one when it was first released I didn't like it, at the time I felt it was too soft too intellectual, and the 1980's style clothing didn't help. However, as I watched it this time, with the two of you, I found that it was a very good story, well paced and thought provoking. It's funny how you view things differently at different stages of your life. Back then I would have called it a throw away episode, now, I find it to be very worthy of the Star Trek brand.,
James Smith
2024-07-01 02:30:03 +0000 UTCI truly love this episode. I think I really like Harry Groener, as a very-often-misunderstood person I enjoyed his character and his take on it. And I think the concept was great sci-fi conceptually which is always a draw for me. There are a lot of stories out there in space, this one is pretty unique.
Angelaina Marie
2024-07-01 02:27:39 +0000 UTCI have honestly never paid attention to the score in any episode. Maybe it’s just the way my brain works (or doesn’t work)
Jeffrey
2024-07-01 02:14:15 +0000 UTC"Mid Man"
StonyD
2024-07-01 02:09:11 +0000 UTCAhh, gotcha, fair enough. Wasn't sure cause the episode I don't think addresses that as clearly again afterward. Though naybe it did and *I* missed it cause of the woodwinds.
Nolan
2024-07-01 02:07:00 +0000 UTCI figured that out, but didn't want to continue talking over the show.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-01 02:03:01 +0000 UTCI'll have to pay more attention to the action score when doing the YouTube edit. I don't really have any memory of it. Glad you enjoyed the score though. It's hilarious that this is I believe the first time we have ever negatively brought up a score (not lack of score) and many people seem to love this one. Go figure!
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-01 02:02:25 +0000 UTCPlease never leave Ken
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-01 01:58:34 +0000 UTCThis has always been one of the best TNG episodes to me. It's just a good, solid, self-contained sci-fi story (which makes sense, since it was adapted from a novel, by its original authors). It also has a perfect Trek ending, with Tam and Gomtuu bonding, and Data and Troi even bonding, and Data showing a little more emotional growth. And a star explodes. I think you need to give the episode soundtrack a second listen, separately from the episode, to really appreciate it.
Artribution
2024-07-01 01:58:05 +0000 UTCNot a banger by any means, but I really like "Tin Man". Good but not great is where I'd put it. I said more about it on the Patron Takes post if anyone cares lol.
Lovok
2024-07-01 01:51:43 +0000 UTCWho? /s
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-01 01:48:37 +0000 UTCThis episode has always been in my top 5 least favorite episodes… and it still is. After season 3 TNG started airing daily and it seemed like they played season 3 episodes more than the others and it seemed like this got played once a month. I haven’t watched this episode in about 30 years because it was an automatic skip so I was curious if I’d like it more now with fresh eyes like I did with the bonding but nope. I did like your idea of swapping the Romulans and Klingons. If this was written today you could have added a second Klingon ship wanting revenge for Tin Man destroying a Klingon ship and tensions with Worf after Sins of the Father.
Jonathan
2024-07-01 01:46:24 +0000 UTCAlex and Josh They're the Target Audience On a cosmic journey Feeling so immense They're sitting in a room Ready for the show Star Trek Next Generation Season three Let's go! It's the first time they've seen this sci-fi sight Boldly going where no man's gone Day and night Synth-pop beats fill atmosphere Their minds are racing Filled with wonder and cheer Cosmic journey They're feeling the thrill Exploring the stars Their hearts they can't still Cosmic journey A voyage so grand Alex and Josh As fans they now stand
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-07-01 01:46:17 +0000 UTCI knew I'd seen him somewhere!
Jeff
2024-07-01 01:34:47 +0000 UTCWorst episode of them all. I turned it off in ten minutes because this man is the most annoying Trek character ever, even more than Lt Boma on the Galileo 7. I found him unwatchable.
Ken R
2024-07-01 01:33:52 +0000 UTCI don't have the obsession with incidental composers that some people here seem to have, but I think it's a shame that anyone got fired because Rick Berman thought it best.
Jovet
2024-07-01 01:33:06 +0000 UTC@Jeffrey My least-enjoyable episode of S3 is still coming.
Jovet
2024-07-01 01:31:22 +0000 UTCI grew up watching TNG as a kid, and remember this episode when it aired. When going back and binging this series, this episode is one of those, “depends on what mood I’m in” in regard to if I’m going to watch it or skip it. Sometimes It hits me just right and other times it’s “I could do without.” The Romulans in this episode only serve as a way of raising the stakes for the plot and could just have easily been the Ferengi or insert alien here. However we do get the name drop of the class of starship the Romulan Warbird (d'deridex class) is in this episode so my inner nerd can’t complain too much.
Nathan Walker
2024-07-01 01:30:21 +0000 UTCThanks!
Aramis Calcutt
2024-07-01 01:26:29 +0000 UTCI can't understand it all, but here's what I can make out: (Corrected from TA's post) Alex and Josh, they're the Target Audience On a cosmic journey feeling so immense. They're sittin' in a room, ready for the show, Star Trek Next Generation. Season three— Let's go! It's the first time they've seen this sci-fi sight, Boldly going where no man's gone. Day and night, synth-pop beats fill atmosphere. Their minds are racing, filled with wonder and cheer! Cosmic journey! They're feeling the thrill exploring the stars. Their hearts they can't still. Cosmic journey! A voyage so grand, Alex and Josh, As fans they now stand! Cosmic journey! A voyage so grand, Alex and Josh, As fans they now stand!
Jovet
2024-07-01 01:25:13 +0000 UTCI'm with you guys on this one. It's a good mid-tier episode. It's not a banger for sure, for sure, but not bad either. Tier C or B. I do love the last scene though. I'm not picky about the score being great, actually to me, it's at least nice to hear something other than a string arrangement every time. I keep getting distracted by Tam's fugly outfit. What is he wearing, lettuce?
Chris Mickelson
2024-07-01 01:20:53 +0000 UTCFiring Ron Jones was one of the bigger missteps of the Berman era. Imagine if he had scored even 1/4 of DS9 and Voyager eps?
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-07-01 01:17:31 +0000 UTCBelow middle to me. I understand why some people like it, but I have never been one of them. It's my least favorite episode of the 2nd half of season 3
Jeffrey
2024-07-01 01:14:34 +0000 UTCNot a fan of Chattaway's music. He's not as flat and wall-papery as Dennis McCarthy tends to be later on, but neither of them is as good as Ron Jones is. Ron Jones tapped into the drama and emotionality far better. Jay loves using those wood instruments, so get used to hearing them more.
Steven Johnson
2024-07-01 01:12:42 +0000 UTCTo me this episode is very middle of the road Star Trek, nothing special but nothing really terrible.
Doug
2024-07-01 01:10:38 +0000 UTCI've never erected any.
Jovet
2024-07-01 01:08:57 +0000 UTC52:32 Did you forget about Jeremy Aster already? 🤷
Jovet
2024-07-01 01:06:14 +0000 UTCYou guys probably already looked it up but Captain DeSoto was Riker’s last captain. He dropped Riker off at Farpoint.
tyranusfan
2024-07-01 01:05:42 +0000 UTCI love this episode because its a blend of scientific discovery and adventure/thriller. Chattaway’s exotic score highlighted the “alienness” of Tin Man. Not for everyone. He called Jerry Goldsmith to ask for advice on alien-sounding instruments. I thought it was effective, and the action music was tense.
Chris S.
2024-07-01 01:03:54 +0000 UTCI suspected that you guys would find this episode merely OK. For me, I really enjoyed it. This was Jay Chattaway first episode as music composer for TNG and his score was great. It highlighted the alien aspect of "Tin Man" very well. Another reason why I enjoyed this. For once, we have a species who isn't just a human with a bumpy forehead. Also, highlighting the issue of a character struggling with their mental health was done well. Tam was a intriguing guest. Prickly, cagey and at times brash and abrasive. Yet also sympathetic and even relatable when you understand his back history. All up an enjoyable episode for me.
William McRae
2024-07-01 01:00:34 +0000 UTCShocking. I LOVED Jay Chattaway’s score. The wind instruments gave it an exotic “alien” sound that was different than most episodes. Chattaway actually called Jerry Goldsmith for advice on what an alien would sound like. Interesting that you guys weren’t crazy about it. What about the action music? I loved that. It really provided a sense of tension, especially after the commercial break when the Romulans attack.
Chris S.
2024-07-01 01:00:06 +0000 UTC45:36 They're definitely living. They (Tam & Gomtuu) saved the ships, and then saved themselves, and then returned Data.
Jovet
2024-07-01 01:00:03 +0000 UTCBest get used to those damn Pan Flutes boys. Chattaway likes leaning on them for mystical, ethereal shit. And Rick Berman loved the Sonic Wallpaper of it. "Tin Man" was just the code name Starfleet gave the creature for when they talked about it in reports and such. Tam says it's galled Gomtuu. A very Baby Yoda to Grogu thing. And when Tam was talking about the death of a crew, he was describing what happened to Gomtuu's crew and why it was alone. the meaning of the scene just slipped by you amongst all the obnoxious woodwinds.
Nolan
2024-07-01 00:56:27 +0000 UTCthanks guys. another fun reaction .. FYI .. I dont care if you love them or hate them. its just cool getting to see them again with new eyes. Ive seen most these so many times I usually can sum them up within the first minute ... oh this is the one where... etc
Lt Dan I scream
2024-07-01 00:55:58 +0000 UTCCan someone transcribe the lyrics of the theme song for me? Other than “Alex and Josh,” I honestly can’t understand a word of it.
Aramis Calcutt
2024-07-01 00:55:11 +0000 UTC41:08 "It's recruiting... food." ROTFL!!!
Jovet
2024-07-01 00:53:44 +0000 UTCMe three lol
AJC
2024-07-01 00:52:49 +0000 UTC5:40 Midnight Mass? And you guys said you're not religious. 😂
Jovet
2024-07-01 00:18:25 +0000 UTCSpeak for yourself.
Michael Mannisto
2024-07-01 00:16:02 +0000 UTC2:00 I kinda wonder how many people in the comments jumped on the "hate it" bandwagon only because you two hated it. Hmmmm.
Jovet
2024-07-01 00:14:53 +0000 UTC...keep moving them goalposts...
Jovet
2024-07-01 00:13:59 +0000 UTCThe captain of the Hood has his Cadillac scrapped by an orangutan in a Clint Eastwood film I'd love to see you review.
Alan Thompson
2024-07-01 00:12:09 +0000 UTCA couple of mediocre episodes after the triumvirate that is YE, Offspring, and SotF. Episodes like these is what keeps S3 from being put into the same category as 4-6.
Michael Mannisto
2024-07-01 00:11:41 +0000 UTCImagine the advantages of a Betazoid captain...
Darin Wagner
2024-07-01 00:07:58 +0000 UTCMe too!
tyranusfan
2024-07-01 00:03:02 +0000 UTCI'm looking forward to this --- Tin Man is a personal favorite. I love the quirky but profound guest performance, good use of Troi, classic sci-fi "high concept" alien, some pew pew action against the romulans, and some great Data moments on the bridge, interacting with Tam, and reflecting on meaning and purpose.
Paul Hess
2024-07-01 00:02:27 +0000 UTC
