FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S3E18 - Allegiance
Added 2024-06-24 03:43:54 +0000 UTC
Comments
It's also useful sometimes to understand the cultural context in which an episode was written and produced. It doesn't forgive poor execution, but sometimes learning "Oh, the entire country right then was super stressed about X" helps one see why they made certain choices throughout the creation process. Useful when critiquing a thing.
SageGreenGoat
2024-06-26 22:54:26 +0000 UTCI feel like having an episode referencing the real world or doing a gimmick (like rashomon or 12 angry men) is like great seats and AC in a car, if the engine is broken the car it is kind of useless, but if the engine works it's really neat.
Syl
2024-06-26 09:20:43 +0000 UTC16:30 A lot of people people don't realize that there are really only 5-7 unique story structures in all story telling, its just the details that are different. Like y'all said, it all comes down to how well those details are presented to the audience that makes it either feel brand new or like the same old trope over and over.
Hannah Huntington
2024-06-25 22:21:34 +0000 UTCAgree to disagree. I *lived* for those trailers when the show was airing.
Jess Thomas
2024-06-25 14:18:17 +0000 UTCThis episode always struck me as a deliberate effort by the writers to take things down a notch and be just a fun diversion. Every series needs to vary the intensity of consecutive stories. This was a chance to have lower stakes and play around with the show's dynamics. A good natured attempt by the writers to give the fans something to smile about.
Numinous2019
2024-06-25 11:19:45 +0000 UTCI am so excited for the last half of this season ....I hate having to wait for Thursdays and Sundays....lol. And only gets better.
Heather M Santell
2024-06-25 03:11:47 +0000 UTCI have always considered this one an 8.5/9 out of 10. Not as amazing as the last few but a very solid episode. Seems like you guys agree.
thesolarwind
2024-06-25 03:09:34 +0000 UTCIt was poorly executed in our opinion… the thing being executed is making a good episode.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-25 02:10:41 +0000 UTCHappens pretty frequently with movies. I find it hard to imagine happening in Trek since we like such similar things, but hey maybe.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-25 02:08:50 +0000 UTCWatching them is fun precisely BECAUSE they're absolutely terrible.
Steven Linden
2024-06-24 23:09:47 +0000 UTCI've said it before and I'll say it again - I think it's much more interesting when people have different opinions, and I appreciate your honest reactions way more than mindlessly going along with the consensus opinion on each episode.
Steven Linden
2024-06-24 23:08:51 +0000 UTCYep, totally agree.
Steven Linden
2024-06-24 23:05:47 +0000 UTCThey kinda made it sound like it was poorly executed. I can see saying it’s boring but I think that would be a script problem at a basic stage. I like the chase and fight parts, as a kid I like the fighty bits they were few and far between in TNG.
Philbot
2024-06-24 21:17:28 +0000 UTCIt just doesn't matter what "they" did wrong. It is their opinion and their channel. Just enjoy the reactions.
Michael Rhine
2024-06-24 20:44:07 +0000 UTCI’m not surprised you have different opinions than the aggregate. Everybody in isolation does. What surprises me is you’ve gotten this deep and haven’t disagreed with each other yet! I’ve only seen differences in degree, but can’t wait for that inevitable one where Josh says I loved that! and it takes Alex a minute to realize he’s serious (or vice versa).
John M.
2024-06-24 20:00:06 +0000 UTC👌 🙄🙄🙄
Michael Metrick
2024-06-24 19:51:05 +0000 UTCThere were too many "chase" scenes. Yawn.
Michael Metrick
2024-06-24 19:46:55 +0000 UTC🤣
Michael Metrick
2024-06-24 19:43:24 +0000 UTCIf you say out loud that you like the episode The Hunted because of how it addresses vietnam, you are a virtue signaler
harrypothead42024
2024-06-24 19:25:07 +0000 UTCI have been a crazy Star Trek fan since the early 80s when I first found a VHS tape with some episodes on it. I am shocked people think Deja Q is an excellent episode
harrypothead42024
2024-06-24 19:22:44 +0000 UTCYea, I've been looking ahead and from here on out there are very few 'bum' episodes. I personally enjoy Allegience because it's a coherent, clever story. The quality of everything just goes up from here because now THEY know what a good Star Trek episodel looks like when they do it, so they do it more often. I think at the beginning, with Gene and all his kinda zany ideas in the way, they suffered creatively and had weird, awkward moments. But that time is now truly past. It's a rocket ride from here.
Angelaina Marie
2024-06-24 19:09:46 +0000 UTCYou can watch our discussion for all of our thoughts on it, but in short it was boring.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-24 18:52:18 +0000 UTCI think when people say they "don't care" for episodes like this one or Matter of Perspective, it's that they aren't as fun to rewatch as some of the others. Some people have been watching it since the 90s and after the twentieth time seeing one of them, you might be like "eh, I could go without seeing this one again." Aside from a few stinkers and a few meh episodes, I think you'll find the vast majority of your TNG journey will be quality and enjoyable. Continue to ignore the haters.
THE LORE!!!
2024-06-24 18:04:15 +0000 UTCThere’s really nothing wrong with the execution of the hunted because you guys didn’t like that one as much. I think the guy can be kind of wooden but it’s a decent episode like, what exactly did they do wrong?
Philbot
2024-06-24 16:04:48 +0000 UTCThis is certainly an opinion.
Menty
2024-06-24 15:51:54 +0000 UTCAgreed, but the execution needs to come first and if it’s good then the “why” will shine through
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-24 15:10:07 +0000 UTCIn terms of the "why" in your "rant", for a show like Star Trek, the "why" is fairly important. Yes, the execution of the "why" is essential for delivering a captivating story -- that is what makes the audience entertained -- but the degree of success of the execution enables the audience to think about the purpose of the story. Star Trek is designed to make us challenge preexisting beliefs and/or understand in a deeper way concepts we are already familiar with. Now of course it is not necessary to spend the time and energy pondering the philosophies and concepts explored by Star Trek -- it can simply be enjoyed with the adventure alone -- but so much of Star Trek's essence is about promoting thoughts and behaviors that can contribute to forming a more socially just and mature society. The Original Series was perhaps the most straight forward and obvious with the intents (for example, the black and white aliens in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", addressing racism and literally breaking down the obvious black and white absurdity and cost of it). The Next Generation is comparably simple, but delivers a more mature story by requiring more conceptual and investigative prowess to dissect the episode. There is a lot to gain in terms of entertainment value from Star Trek, but there is so much more value to be found in Star Trek when it is studied for its moral obligations.
Ricky
2024-06-24 14:46:41 +0000 UTCA reminder that they're wrong lol
Captain Proton
2024-06-24 14:25:01 +0000 UTCI apparently like Allegiance more than most. All the fake Picard shenanigans are really what lift this episode above many others for me.
Evan Guthrie
2024-06-24 13:55:03 +0000 UTCIn case no one had told you yet, fake Picard steered the ship into the pulsar as a test of authority ;)
Evan Guthrie
2024-06-24 13:41:29 +0000 UTCI can think of two but there's a certain something I seem to hate a lot more than other people do...
Evan Guthrie
2024-06-24 13:40:32 +0000 UTCI like you talking about it. As you said, your perspective is different from ours. I am 40 now and started watching TNG when I was 8 and then fell in love with Star Trek in general and watched all of TOS and the films and then the new (at the time) series as they released in real-time. Your format of reacting in order on a consistent basis with a community watching YOU (Who Watches the Watchers!?) is a unique thing and it's valid that you discuss how you rank the episodes and seasons.
Menty
2024-06-24 13:23:27 +0000 UTCPlease keep forgetting. Those trailers make me hate the show :P I can't stand that voiceover guy
Andreas Schmitt
2024-06-24 12:09:19 +0000 UTCNo big loss, they're awful. If they had had those teasers here in Europe I'd never have watched Trek. They're absolutely horrible.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-06-24 12:06:49 +0000 UTCI'm getting the feeling that this guy strongly dislikes TNG.
Spencer Loften
2024-06-24 11:17:21 +0000 UTCSo brave...
Brendon Waldron
2024-06-24 11:13:43 +0000 UTCWe don’t care as far as it affecting our opinion, but it is interesting to acknowledge and discuss. Also, it’s not the mainstream opinion we talk about, it’s the opinion of our community. That’s the point of Patron Takes. We are literally reading what people think about it. Obviously we are going to discuss that.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-24 10:09:49 +0000 UTCFrom the transcript: "ALIEN 4: We wanted to examine the nature of command. ALIEN 1: Our replicas of Tholl and Esoqq explored this issue on Mizar Two and on Chalna, just as our Picard replica did on the Enterprise."
Greg Quinn
2024-06-24 10:03:10 +0000 UTCSometimes we forget lol
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-24 10:02:46 +0000 UTC"Maybe you're overthinking it." Immediately overthinks his whole comment ^^^^
Trouty McTroutTrout
2024-06-24 09:51:31 +0000 UTCOmg this was so frustrating watching they did not get the whole B plot until they read that last comment haha! Now I can sleep :D Yes the whole fake Picard deal was studying crew. Pushing their limits and watch when they crack. First clue was right in beggining asking Troi about crew etc, pushing Jordy and then dr Crusher and testing her loyality. It was good episode and reaction! More to come!!!
Jiri Luza
2024-06-24 09:47:36 +0000 UTCWhy don't you tell us how you really feel Ken.
Trouty McTroutTrout
2024-06-24 09:46:01 +0000 UTCTOS season 1 Charlie X , Where No Man, Naked Time, Enemy Within. Four in a row all better than most episodes in Season 1 -3 TNG. I'd say a whopping two this season are as good as those 4. And then later on in that same season you get 5 in a row Corbomite, Menagerie 1 and 2, Conscience of the King, Balance of Terror. That's 9 in the first 14 weeks of ST. I don't know that TNG even had 9 good episodes in the 50 or 60 we've watched so far.
Ken R
2024-06-24 08:30:53 +0000 UTC"Shut up, Steve!"
Jovet
2024-06-24 07:37:01 +0000 UTCYeah, what the heck?
Steven Johnson
2024-06-24 07:09:14 +0000 UTCAwesome.
Steven Johnson
2024-06-24 07:08:22 +0000 UTCAlien 1: "And that was all a study of how authority works in alien cultures." Riker: "Right... how does a date with Dr Crusher tie into that?" Picard: *hides his face* Alien 1 and 2: *both look at Alien 3* Alien 3: *shrugs* "I'm into hot alien red-heads..."
snthd
2024-06-24 06:59:00 +0000 UTC@Eric Brinkmann So, the male equivalent of 'a Karen' is now... Steve?
Jovet
2024-06-24 06:54:53 +0000 UTCAgreed!
Jovet
2024-06-24 06:52:31 +0000 UTCI find it so delicious to auto-speculate comments like this. "Which one of the eight is he referring to?" 😀
Jovet
2024-06-24 06:52:02 +0000 UTCThank you, Timothy!
Jovet
2024-06-24 06:49:27 +0000 UTCIf you like, direct from Armin Shimmerman (Betazoid betrothal box; Ferengi, various; [redacted]), one of Winrich Kolbe's on set nicknames was "The Baron". That way you needn't worry about the pronunciation.🧐
Avaria
2024-06-24 06:18:44 +0000 UTCI've been enjoying rewatching these along with you, it has made me realize that the episodes I thought were boring as a kid are now much more enjoyable. There are still quite a few great episodes left in this season, IMO, can't wait to see what you think of the rest of them.
Preston M
2024-06-24 06:18:33 +0000 UTCNot reacting to the trailers anymore? I miss them. It was becoming a fun little tradition.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-06-24 06:05:57 +0000 UTCVyn-rish KOL-beh
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-06-24 06:03:55 +0000 UTCAt his point I think you are way too much concerned about what the 'mainstream' of the fanbase thinks about an episode. Inspite saying constantly you don't care. You do care obviously. But you really don't have to. We are here to share our different perspectives and not to force you into a collective opinion. We are not the Borg. LOL
Sam Langanke
2024-06-24 05:50:05 +0000 UTCFive more bangers coming right up!
Charlie's Illiteracy
2024-06-24 05:45:23 +0000 UTCYes, that's why fake Picard asks Troi if the crew trusts him and how far does that trust go.
D Jammers
2024-06-24 05:41:57 +0000 UTCWhen the aliens are exposed, they explicitly state that while the three captives were being tested to study the interaction of their conflicting notions of authority, simultaneously the duplicates of the captives were using their positions to study the nature of authority within their respective societies. So yes, fake Picard did everything he did as part of the attempt to study the nature of authority in human culture. He initiates an apparently pointless mission to test the crew's trust that it's not actually pointless. He questions Troi directly about the limits of the crew's trust. He makes advances on Beverly to study how the commander/subordinate relationship affects the potential romantic relationship, hence his specific curiosity of "would it be simpler if I were not your commanding officer". He gaslights and threatens Riker because, again, he's seeing how far he can push things before Riker actually defies him. He orders the ship to get suicidally close to the star because Riker already told him that was the line he wouldn't be allowed to cross, and he had experimented enough that it was time to see how the mutiny would actually play out. The only thing that doesn't seem obviously like part of the experiments with the nature of authority is when he starts singing in Ten Forward. Narratively, that seems to be there mainly to make it obvious to the senior officers that something's definitely wrong with Picard and he's not just being secretive. But within the premise of experimenting with authority, it's still reasonable as part of exploring how it affects Picard's ability to socialize with the crew.
Jeff Cornell
2024-06-24 05:33:23 +0000 UTCHey, you guys dropping the episode trailers from the discussions?
James Bottas
2024-06-24 05:29:08 +0000 UTCThat's right, FIVE bangers in a row. A love A Matter of Perspective. This is the 'weakest' of the five, but it's always part of my rewatch. At this rate, you may love every episode remaining for the season .... except one I'm predicting for later.
JGoss
2024-06-24 05:28:34 +0000 UTCNo more reacting to the teasers? The last discussion didn't have it either.
JGoss
2024-06-24 05:24:10 +0000 UTCExactly, It's not like fake Picard was actually upset when Riker took over. He just recorded the info of the experiment. That was his goal.
D Jammers
2024-06-24 05:19:51 +0000 UTCJuicy reaction and discussion, guys! And you're right: anyone that doesn't enjoy this one is wrong.
Jovet
2024-06-24 05:11:23 +0000 UTC"Me" speculating? I think that's what you're doing my fishy friend. lol.. Nah. I think you're overthinking it. Seducing Beverly (and then kicking her out) could be another test of loyalty and/or trust. Why go sing songs? maybe out of character behavior is intentional and again, another test of trust. Or maybe it's just really acting like it thinks Picard would act. Maybe it wasn't "trying so hard" to kill the crew. we didn't get to see whatever it's next move would be so maybe it would've given another order at the last second to avert disaster. Who knows. But I think in this case it's the old "simplest answer is the correct one"
James Bottas
2024-06-24 05:09:37 +0000 UTC25:40 Were you happy that the three were being studied from within?
Jovet
2024-06-24 05:02:33 +0000 UTC20:54 Did you notice that the monolith had, like, blue sky and clouds on it?
Jovet
2024-06-24 04:57:53 +0000 UTCThen why did he seduce Beverley? Why go sing songs in the mess hall? I don't think that's why the imposter was on the ship at all. They had to make a copy to get Picard to the experiment. They used the opportunity to test all the bounds of a starship Captain but as I said to another guy, if the aliens were just curious and meant no harm why would they try so hard to kill the crew? Why be so convincing in trying to persuade Riker not to "destroy himself" and privately threaten to relieve him of duty? Why kill himself in the process? And what did fake Picard intend to do after he was exposed? Sit in the brig for a week? Bottom line is it's never explained in the show so you're speculating. The other story doesn't add up so even if that's the reason, which it probably was, there was much more to the behavior of fake Picard than just trying to force the crew into a mutiny.
Trouty McTroutTrout
2024-06-24 04:53:29 +0000 UTC12:28 I'm pretty sure the W in Winrich is pronounced as a V. "VYN-rish" (*edited*)
Jovet
2024-06-24 04:49:39 +0000 UTCNot judging anyone ;) but I'm surprised at all the confusion as to the purpose of the trip to the pulsar. It's right in the title, "Allegiance".. the escape room was a test of trust and so to was the trip to the pulsar, testing the allegiance of the crew as their "captain" seemingly endangers them. Good episode, glad you guys enjoyed it. Funny that season 1's Lonely AMONG US gets mentioned and compared to this one in particular ;)
James Bottas
2024-06-24 04:44:33 +0000 UTC7:26 and those two cast were identical twins! Since they're supposed to be all identical.
Jovet
2024-06-24 04:44:27 +0000 UTCThe "fake Picard" took them to the pulsar exactly because it was life-threatening as part of his test to see how far the crew would follow him without question. Who knows whether or not he would have let the ship and crew be destroyed just to satisfy his curiosity.
Stevtrek
2024-06-24 04:42:43 +0000 UTCThey also referred to him as “The Baron”. 😁
Column Meanie
2024-06-24 04:38:25 +0000 UTC1:00 We TOLD you! It gets GOOOOOD! 😀 And it hasn't even piqued. I can't promise you guys will like all of the next 8, but it still hasn't piqued.
Jovet
2024-06-24 04:38:00 +0000 UTCSeriously though I'm glad you said that piece about not needing the premise to be some mind-blowing new concept for the episode to be enjoyable. Like Data having a daughter for example - that's nothing new at all in an episodic TV series to introduce a new family member. It's the way the characters we know and love deal with it, it's the acting and the score and the directing. Turns it into something incredible. There's a couple episodes among my favorite of the whole series where in order to pull the story off you have to have foreknowledge that the crew doesn't. But the execution is so incredible it's just impossible for me not to enjoy them. Hope you'll feel the same when the time comes! At any rate fantastic breakdown as always.
Trouty McTroutTrout
2024-06-24 04:33:16 +0000 UTCNicely done.
Eric Brinkmann
2024-06-24 04:30:13 +0000 UTC"Coming up on Star Trek TNG - Wesley Crusher gets a cell phone with unexpected results." Maaaaaan, this episode better be well executed.
Trouty McTroutTrout
2024-06-24 04:29:44 +0000 UTCI was interpreting fake Picard was testing how far the crew would follow an authority figure
Manny Fleurmond
2024-06-24 04:29:43 +0000 UTCOh... Oh, that prick?
Steven Johnson
2024-06-24 04:21:14 +0000 UTCCredit to Steve
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-24 04:12:45 +0000 UTC"My mother calls me Richard..."
Steven Johnson
2024-06-24 04:10:54 +0000 UTCI think you can credit Steve J. for that
JD Nevesytrof
2024-06-24 04:03:27 +0000 UTCGreat background, guys
Eric Brinkmann
2024-06-24 04:01:42 +0000 UTCWinrich Kolbe usually went by "Rick" on set, according to the actors, so that might make it easier to mention.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-06-24 03:59:16 +0000 UTCYou have magical Patreon Karen powers to make things like this happen!
Eric Brinkmann
2024-06-24 03:53:42 +0000 UTCI was not aware that there was a power issue delaying anything, so I was being a little whiney bitch in the Discord. Lo, and behold, the discussion drops.
Steven Johnson
2024-06-24 03:49:06 +0000 UTC
