PATRON TAKES - Star Trek TNG - Season 3 Episode 14
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Comments
This is another favorite of mine that I suspect you won't enjoy as much as I did. I was 8 when the episode premiered and the notion of watching the same scene from different points of view was new and exciting. Now that I am 40+ and more jaded it seems like just another common trope.
Cirk Bejnar
2024-06-08 03:06:13 +0000 UTCI see what you did there😉
Rich Cirivilleri
2024-06-06 17:41:25 +0000 UTCThe Star Trek Technical Manual lists the position Data sits in as Operations Manager. That’s likely what Wesley meant in Encounter at Farpoint during his impromptu tour of the Bridge when he referred to the backup Conn and Ops panels in Picard’s chair.
Geoffrey Linehan
2024-06-04 02:28:56 +0000 UTCJust some terminology, now that we are far enough in that you are noticing details: the two seats in front are the HELM ☸️ (Sulu) and NAVIGATION 🧭 (Chekov). The navigator plots the ship’s course, and the helmsman steers. The person who is currently in charge of the ship and has the authority to issue orders to the helmsman and navigator is the person who HAS THE CONN. In TNG, because they often have Data sitting in front and doing the job of a science officer (even though he doesn’t wear blue), Wesley is often doing the jobs of both helm and navigation. Just because he is good at it beryghing.
Aramis Calcutt
2024-06-04 00:46:57 +0000 UTCIn my opinion the weakest episode of season 3. It's not terrible, but it is absolutely not good. One of Trek's Strength is that it been shown to be able to do any type of story. TNG will shortly become a proven ground for an extremely young writing staff ) all of which have had successful careers after). And you ask them what is the one type of story telling they never did well. The mystery, who done it. Eventually if you ever watch the behind the scenes from the remastered blu rays of TNG, you will see them mock how poorly they handled the who done it, genre in TNG.
Mark Wood
2024-06-03 19:29:01 +0000 UTCHard to believe they wouldn't detect a phaser blast. Even if it was right before transporting he would have had to have fired after verbalizing to transport (since it took a few moments)....they aren't scanning and that time to determine a phaser blast. The phaser has no internal logs to denote its been used? Lots of logical plot holes...but whatever.
Greg Quinn
2024-06-03 19:11:59 +0000 UTCWell sure...but accusing someone of attempted rape would still be important....one would think.
Greg Quinn
2024-06-03 19:08:22 +0000 UTC@Greg Quinn I think they were playing that the charge of murder was more important than that of sexual impropriety.
Jovet
2024-06-03 17:06:46 +0000 UTCHe didn't seem "off" to me, but he did come across as bothered this was all happening in the first place.
Jovet
2024-06-03 17:03:16 +0000 UTCExactly. Krag is so insistent on guilty until proven innocent, but never follows up on anything but the supposed murder. I guess withdrawing his extradition claim shows he does believe Riker, but it's weird to me to just not mention it, especially when they make a point of highlighting that Troi couldn't even tell Mrs. Apgar was lying.
Ryan Caulfield
2024-06-03 15:30:29 +0000 UTCI thought Apgar died in a nursing home explosion.
Roland_D
2024-06-03 14:22:03 +0000 UTCNot this time. We made it up. Total fabrication. It never happened. Pure fiction.
TomEmilioDavies
2024-06-03 09:49:47 +0000 UTC@James: They proved someone activated the generator on the surface, that it could only have been Apgar was speculation if I remember correctly. And of course the scenario of Apgar trying to kill Riker is speculation too. It could have happened that way but the time delay is not proof that it did, it's just a possibility. It reminded me of the ending of Murder under the Sun, the Poirot movie with Peter Ustinov. At the end he explains how the murder happened in detail except he has no actual proof which leads to the people he accused scoffing and telling him to give them 30 minutes and they can construct a scenario where he's the killer. Of course Poirot then found a piece of evidence that proved he's right but it did show that a story that makes sense is not proof in itself.
Phillip Grischa
2024-06-03 08:53:09 +0000 UTCI have always liked this episode, but I don't think it entirely works. Least of all because we know Riker, and we know that he's not the man projected in the witness statements given by the assistant and wife. Sure, he's a charmer, bit of a seducer, but he wouldn't just invade a woman's personal space without prior invitation. Still, it's a clever use of the holodeck, I just think it really holds up to much scrutiny.
Andy Frankham-Allen
2024-06-03 08:13:11 +0000 UTCIn which #MeToo finally comes for Riker. Let's face it, he's been asking for it for a while now.
Eric Brinkmann
2024-06-03 05:58:35 +0000 UTCI have a significant problem with believing Riker would seduce or allow himself to be seduced by another man's wife when he wasn't even comfortable having Yuta be his love sub/slave. I know it's fiction, but, let's be real.
Jovet
2024-06-03 02:23:09 +0000 UTC@Greg Quinn Didn't do wonders for her/their credibility, though.
Jovet
2024-06-03 02:19:57 +0000 UTCIf Riker had tried to shoot Apgar with a phaser, one wonders if the phaser beam would have reflected back towards him within like it did externally.
Jovet
2024-06-03 02:18:11 +0000 UTCYou missed the point.
Jovet
2024-06-03 02:16:34 +0000 UTCHe didn't do anything wrong, I am sure of it. She just is a bitter, crazy lady who took advantage of his kindness.
Jovet
2024-06-03 02:16:15 +0000 UTCThe third party testimony from giving the hear say from Apgar (which their courts allow) suggests they were both consensually making out with one another according to Apgar. That's probably the closest to the truth. Riker is a horny bird.
Greg Quinn
2024-06-03 01:11:38 +0000 UTCNo, I meant in the non-holodeck scenes he felt off. Thanks for the comment. I corrected my original comment above.
Nick Sauer
2024-06-03 01:09:34 +0000 UTCSomething I'm unclear on. The early holodeck recreation has Geordi. So he saw the initial interactions. Was it his recollections of the wife saying something like (now my memory is failing me) "my husband is a great scientist but does come up SHORT in some areas"....ouch.
Greg Quinn
2024-06-03 01:08:01 +0000 UTCYou got it James..
Greg Quinn
2024-06-03 01:05:12 +0000 UTCI think his point is...that they present a sexual assault accusations...then kinda just toss it aside out of no where. He had been accused of basically attempted rape...and Troi and company couldn't really determine that was false...that accusation was never dealt with. Proving that he didn't kill the scientist didn't prove that he didn't do that.
Greg Quinn
2024-06-03 01:04:01 +0000 UTCWell people do often remember things differently yet each still genuinely believe they are remembering "the truth". Having said that...I do think the differences in the Riker and what's his names wife are pretty huge even for what we know about unreliable memory. Stil...I appreciate the point.
Greg Quinn
2024-06-03 01:00:31 +0000 UTCAnd we have plenty of real world evidence (like when witnesses recount things, and they later find video.. It often shows that none of the witnesses were right). And in general psychology it is known that to some extent people dp remember things how they want to remember them. BUT...the differences were pretty huge. From him "truly remembering" her throwing herself at him to her "truly remembering" him trying to rape her...that is a massive difference. Maybe if she was in some way impaired/intoxicated I could believe she was that far off (although it's never actually proven that he wasn't sexually aggressive). Maybe just a bit too much disparity...
Greg Quinn
2024-06-03 00:57:08 +0000 UTCI'm very surprised how divisive this episode is!
Jovet
2024-06-03 00:56:50 +0000 UTCNo.
Jovet
2024-06-03 00:55:27 +0000 UTCRiker wouldn't have flirted with a married woman. He may have ingratiated her a tad and she took that as flirting/interest.
Jovet
2024-06-03 00:55:00 +0000 UTCThat was the point: Riker was *supposed* to "feel off" because witness testimony/memory/bias is terrible.
Jovet
2024-06-03 00:53:56 +0000 UTCThis is a solid B, mayhaps B+
Jovet
2024-06-03 00:52:26 +0000 UTCShe WANTED Riker to hit on her, and if that wouldn't happen, she wanted to seduce him. Because her husband's a loser. And she's a player.
Jovet
2024-06-03 00:51:03 +0000 UTCI was kidding.
Numinous2019
2024-06-03 00:11:04 +0000 UTCNice little bit of acting and direction. When Picard goes to his Ready Room with Krag, he says firmly to Riker "YOU HAVE THE BRIDGE", broadcasting his vote of confidence to the rest of the bridge crew.
JGoss
2024-06-03 00:10:53 +0000 UTCThere was no assault or battery. She married a loser and suffered for it and lashed out at others.
Jovet
2024-06-02 23:55:30 +0000 UTCI like this one. The point wasn't that both versions actually happened... it's that the witnesses BELIEVE that (is how) they happened. Because witnesses are terrible.
Jovet
2024-06-02 23:54:33 +0000 UTCIn its wake it shows how witness testimony is rarely the 100% truth.
Jovet
2024-06-02 23:53:17 +0000 UTCIt's odd to me how Picard goes from "convince me" to "here, let me defend Riker and convince YOU"
Jovet
2024-06-02 23:52:34 +0000 UTCI like it. I like the kind-of twist at the end.
Jovet
2024-06-02 23:52:07 +0000 UTCThis episode demonstrates well how witness testimony is generally terrible.
Jovet
2024-06-02 23:51:29 +0000 UTCI love this episode even if it's not one of the best. I just find the procedural stuff in a star trek setting fascinating and engaging.
John Deadcorn
2024-06-02 23:44:45 +0000 UTCI still hate the royale should have just made it a holodeck episode
Scarpad’s Domain
2024-06-02 23:18:11 +0000 UTCI get what they were going for but it doesn’t rise to the level of other court episodes still it was ok
Scarpad’s Domain
2024-06-02 23:17:08 +0000 UTCThis one is going to be divisive. On the one hand, it's an interesting idea... that the holodeck could be used to recreate a crime scene to aid in an investigation. However, the plot is really muddied by the fact that none of us believe Riker did those abusive things... except Troi, who should be able to KNOW that those things didn't happen because she knows Riker. Interesting concept ruined by taking liberties with well established characters. Not a fan of this one.
Jack Shipley
2024-06-02 23:10:41 +0000 UTCHated this episode. Boring all the way through
Eric Kelly
2024-06-02 22:15:05 +0000 UTCI absolutely detest this episode. Because it wasn't "a matter of perspective". It's just not possible for both versions of the events as presented to be true. It makes Riker, who previously had been characterized as a Kirk-style ladies man, suddenly look like a sexually abusive creep. Even Troi had doubts, which was awful. And I hated the guest actors who played the scientist and his wife and their assistant. Worst episode of the season. Dig a hole and throw it in.
Charlie's Illiteracy
2024-06-02 21:48:24 +0000 UTCAnother court episode. And it’s done all in the holodeck shut the front door. Evil Riker vs evil wife vs evil husband.
Lt Dan I scream
2024-06-02 21:43:32 +0000 UTCYeah, it's kind of like the holodeck reenactments are treated as real events set in stone, when they are all based on memories that could be wildly inaccurate.
Ryan Caulfield
2024-06-02 21:36:06 +0000 UTCOn the one hand, I really like how the holodeck is used in this episode to see all the different perspectives and the way Picard and Geordi put all the pieces together at the end is very satisfying. On the other hand, dealing with possible sexual assault allegations requires far more care and nuance than what happens here. (We know Riker would not do that obviously.) It's a thread that's never really resolved and probably should not have been included at all.
Ryan Caulfield
2024-06-02 21:32:27 +0000 UTCBut I like to be someone else ! Jk
Steve the greeeen hand
2024-06-02 21:31:49 +0000 UTCThey proved Apgar activated the energy thingy on the planet at the moment the station exploded. Riker could not have been involved with that. Unless you want to think they both tried killing each other at the same time.
JGoss
2024-06-02 21:03:12 +0000 UTCI'm watching Columbo, and the number of times he constructs a case and has his gotcha moment only for me to think: "This wouldn't hold up in court," is NOT a rare occurance. I always know it's a good episode when the padding is light and the gotcha holds up.
Nolan
2024-06-02 20:58:23 +0000 UTCI got the impression from what was said that the point of Dr. Apgar's device was to do exactly that and that the holodeck recreation was good enough to do exactly the same thing on the Enterprise that was occurring on the station. The energy from the planet was just powering the device. I also don't think the holodeck was breaking the safety rules because Krieger waves were unknown to the software.
Nick Sauer
2024-06-02 20:53:24 +0000 UTC"WE'RE GOING TO COURT!" Well, almost. But overall, one of those mid episodes.
Mike Rogers
2024-06-02 20:48:15 +0000 UTCcan't tell if you're kidding but Rashomon was 1950 haha
Matthew Riley
2024-06-02 20:42:24 +0000 UTCI know you guys love a good courtroom drama, but this one just never clicked for me. I found the guest characters annoying.
tyranusfan
2024-06-02 20:40:55 +0000 UTCThat kind of things happen so often on detective shows, especially the non-police detectives. As long as the detective comes up with a reasonable theory, sometimes the writers forget to have it actually be LEGALLY proven.
Joe Concepts
2024-06-02 20:35:31 +0000 UTCI watched almost every tng episode as it aired for the first time every week, starting when it premiered when I was in 4th grade. There are 5 which I tuned off and never went back. This episode is one of them.
The ted berg
2024-06-02 20:27:02 +0000 UTCThey didn't actually prove Riker didn't murder him, right? Obviously we know he didn't but what they showed on the holodeck was still a recreation based partly on things they knew and partly on things they assumed to be true (primarily Riker being innocent). They took the facts and then interpreted them in a way that was favorable to Riker, this would not work in an actual court because the accused murderers scientist friends aren't exactly impartial.
Phillip Grischa
2024-06-02 19:42:42 +0000 UTCMy own take on Rashomon was that the last version of the events between the bandit, samurai and his wife was probably the 'true' version. The reason is that it paints all 4 characters (the witness included) in an unflattering (or at least flawed) light. You are right though about no version being reliable due to personal recall and subjectivity.
Numinous2019
2024-06-02 19:41:12 +0000 UTCThis episode is bad for a number of reasons. The first being that we immediately know Riker isn't guilty simply because his character would never do something like what he was accused of. It goes against the very essence of what his character is. The second being the complete lack of suspense or tension over the possibility of Riker being convicted. We know they aren't going to write Riker out of the show halfway through the season in a throwaway episode. This episode is just a near total miss. The only positive is that some of the acting in the reenactments is so bad that it makes me laugh out loud. Love season 3 but this episode is definitely in the bottom three for me.
Spencer Loften
2024-06-02 19:36:20 +0000 UTCThis TNG episode pre-dated the Kurosawa film though. At least that's the way I remember it being.
Numinous2019
2024-06-02 19:35:37 +0000 UTC@Nolan: In Rashomon there was no objective truth to be found because everyone was telling their subjective truth, the point was that the audience cannot know for sure, partly because we don't know any of the characters. On tv shows that attempt a similar concept this usually falls flat because the moment an established character acts completely out of character in one of the subjective retellings of the events, the audience immediately knows that this cannot be what actually happened.
Phillip Grischa
2024-06-02 19:29:23 +0000 UTCAgreed!
Trouty McTroutTrout
2024-06-02 19:12:43 +0000 UTCI hated it as a teenager. But I learned with you guys to look at some episodes differently now. ('The Royale' anyone?) So I am curious if my opinion changes on this as well.
Sam Langanke
2024-06-02 19:12:41 +0000 UTCWelcome to the Jonathon Frakes tribute to the soap operas he used to star in before Star Trek!!!!!
Monty Crawford
2024-06-02 19:02:54 +0000 UTCMine too 😁
JGoss
2024-06-02 19:01:14 +0000 UTCOr that he had one in the first place. He didn't have one holstered, it came from his wrist. Transporter logs would prove it either way.
JGoss
2024-06-02 19:00:17 +0000 UTCI like the premise of this one, I just don't think it's well executed. People remembering things differently is good in concept with the holodeck, but pushed to it's logical extreme when the lady thinks Riker tried to rape her. One more draft could have fixed this episode. Anything with Hector Salamanca get's a few free points in my book.
EnigmaticPenguin
2024-06-02 18:47:35 +0000 UTCI think you guys will like but not love this. It is interesting to see Riker have some potential blowback for his "playboy" reputation
Eric Singer
2024-06-02 18:42:50 +0000 UTCThis one is not bad, but it is not good.
Just another Red Shirt
2024-06-02 18:35:49 +0000 UTCA weird episode. Great use of the holodeck, and it is a trial episode, but I just don't get the Enterprise crew thinking "Yes, that is EXACTLY the way Riker acts ALL THE TIME so these scenarios by people who don't know him are utterly believable in the slightest." Now if Kirk had been on trial...maybe. But there is still far more good than bad in this episode. Is this the episode where they get all of the PIcard and Riker meme pictures from? Those are hilarious.
wildhunt1973
2024-06-02 18:33:28 +0000 UTCAn interesting look at the falacy of memory, but the repetition bores me to tears.
Screaming Frog
2024-06-02 18:30:15 +0000 UTCNot sure if you guys ever watched Breaking Bad and/or Better Call Saul. Dr. Nel Apgar played by the recently passed (well last year) Mark Margolis of Hector Salamanca fame. Trained under Adler when young. One of those actors who was probably a better actor than 90% of the actors more famous/richer than himself.
Greg Quinn
2024-06-02 18:25:25 +0000 UTCOne of the weaknesses episodes of second half season 3 (IMO). But still pretty good....
Greg Quinn
2024-06-02 18:22:11 +0000 UTCPossibly my favourite "courtroom" episode of trek, simply because we get to SEE everyone's perspectives one after another, and I find that fascinating. But it sounds like most people found that format repetitive/boring. What about you?
GreenCauldron08
2024-06-02 18:21:54 +0000 UTCFor that matter...couldn't they easily detect if his phaser was fired. But..still decent episode.
Greg Quinn
2024-06-02 18:21:37 +0000 UTCI always figured it was somewhere in the middle. Riker was a bit inappropriately and so was she.
Greg Quinn
2024-06-02 18:19:30 +0000 UTCOne of my favorite uses of the holodeck in any episode!
TrekNerd85
2024-06-02 18:17:27 +0000 UTC“We’re going to Holodeck Court”
Jon1701
2024-06-02 18:12:01 +0000 UTCI wasn’t aware of the inspiration so I thought this was a pretty original concept for Star Trek, though it reminds me of Wolf In The Fold - both only worked because in part the plots seem plausible because both Riker and Scotty are known to make potentially unwise romantic choices, albeit Riker is more succcessful.
Paul Rymer
2024-06-02 18:04:34 +0000 UTCAirbnb still just as shitty in the future when it comes to keeping arrangements! Actually this was actually going to be my comment because it's always bothered me. He says something easily verifiable that's never brought up again.
THE LORE!!!
2024-06-02 18:00:32 +0000 UTCBest part of the episode, for sure
JGoss
2024-06-02 17:52:41 +0000 UTCI would imagine they were both hot and heavy for each other, and both deeply regret it. Apgar figured it out and confronted them. I believe Riker's version of the confrontation, slipping out the way to avoid the punch.
JGoss
2024-06-02 17:52:16 +0000 UTCYup, and a third one coming up. Should mention the meme version of the "double facepalm" of Riker and Picard is Photoshopped, but the main picture comes from here.
THE LORE!!!
2024-06-02 17:47:49 +0000 UTCIt may have just been a comment on her situation, imbued with more romantic overtones and intentions in the wife's memory than in reality. See my reply to Trouty's comment for what I think was really going on.
Nolan
2024-06-02 17:44:10 +0000 UTCYou would think Investigator Krag could easily verify that Riker made arrangements to stay on the planet as he said, thus catching Mrs. Apgar in a lie.
JGoss
2024-06-02 17:40:53 +0000 UTCWasn't the explanation more specifically that the holodeck WASN'T creating the wave, but converting energy directed to it from a generator on the planet below INTO Krieger Waves? Thus the holodeck doesn't break it's own rules here.
Nolan
2024-06-02 17:40:30 +0000 UTCIn this episode we have another inventive use for the holodeck. Do you think, if it existed today, holodeck recreations would be permissible in court?
Evan Guthrie
2024-06-02 17:39:49 +0000 UTCThe episode in which the based alpha chad Riker reminds us not to hashtag-believe-all-women.
Jeff Cornell
2024-06-02 17:38:32 +0000 UTCThis is one of my favorite middle tier episodes. I love the concept of showing how different people can interpret the same events completely differently. I find it hard to believe though that Riker would misinterpret the wife's intentions that badly. Do you guys think she was actually all over him?
BN13
2024-06-02 17:37:52 +0000 UTCYes but in his version, he was hesitant to her advances, while such a quote would indicate he was all in on the mutual hook-up.
JGoss
2024-06-02 17:36:52 +0000 UTCJust for clarification, the former is what TV shows do, versus the latter being what Rashamon was saying?
Nolan
2024-06-02 17:29:05 +0000 UTCI really felt Riker was very off in this episode. There were a number of his regular (i.e. non-holodeck record) scenes that just didn't feel like it was the same character to me. The one interesting part of the episode to me was that holodeck replicated a good enough copy of Dr. Apgar's equipment that it was able to create Krieger waves as well. All this time I thought the holodeck was just holograms and force fields.
Nick Sauer
2024-06-02 17:28:39 +0000 UTCPossibly an off-hand comment Riker made, but didn't put any significance to, thus didn't remember but stuck out like a sore thumb to Mrs. Apgar.
Nolan
2024-06-02 17:26:58 +0000 UTCWe know what really happened ;) We know.
Benjamin Azure
2024-06-02 17:26:24 +0000 UTCThe truth is probably somewhere in the middle. They were probably both very flirty, both got a little too comfortable with each other, but neither had any intentions, they got touchy feely enough to get right to the edge of crossing the line, but both got uncomfortable and realized some of the implications, then imbued the other's actions with more intent than there was, and afterward, blew those actions and intentions out of proportion in their own memory.
Nolan
2024-06-02 17:24:12 +0000 UTCThis is my least favorite of this season, just beating out The Vengence Factor.....dang, both Riker episodes too. Maybe this just isn't his year. Hope he finishes it out strong
Elway Simpson
2024-06-02 17:23:55 +0000 UTCThe millionth retelling of Kurosawa’s Rashomon on network tv. Mid at best.
Matthew Riley
2024-06-02 17:22:31 +0000 UTCThis is a pretty average episode, all things considered, but it's probably my FAVORITE of the average episodes. Yeah, because it's a clever use of the holodeck, and it's Trek's take on the Japanese film Rashamon (which I've FINALLY seen last month), its lesson about understanding others' viewpoints is great and well demonstrated, but I mostly love this episode for Frakes' hammy overacting in the Dr. Apgar re-enactment. It's so hilariously over the top. "YOU'RE A DEAD MAN APGAR! A dEaD mAn!" Frakes knew the assignment.
Nolan
2024-06-02 17:18:38 +0000 UTCThis is one of the only TNG episodes I almost always skip. I’ll watch it with you guys, but I never like when tv series do Rashomon and completely miss the point (that everyone views things based on their own experiences and preconceived viewpoints..not “they’re all lying but here’s what REALLY happened)
Glenn Johnson Barnes
2024-06-02 17:09:24 +0000 UTCOk, but what REALLY happened between Riker and Mrs. Apgar? I guess we'll never know!
Trouty McTroutTrout
2024-06-02 17:06:57 +0000 UTCBack to back legendary facepalms
JGoss
2024-06-02 17:05:36 +0000 UTC"VENTURAAAA!" "...Yes Satan?"
JGoss
2024-06-02 17:03:20 +0000 UTCPlot summary: "Rashomon ....IN SPAAAAAAAAACE". I really enjoy this one. Solid Ron Jones score, and fun subtleties in versions. Notice only in her version, Riker cites Rapunzel in her tower while seducing her, likely not something an alien would know to make up. Hmmm
JGoss
2024-06-02 17:03:05 +0000 UTCThe birth of the double (Picard and Riker) facepalm meme!
THE LORE!!!
2024-06-02 16:59:21 +0000 UTC
