FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S3E12 - The High Ground
Added 2024-05-27 00:19:58 +0000 UTC
Comments
The difference being that Ireland hasn't been reunified yet -- although there are still six months to go...
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-06-12 21:16:45 +0000 UTCMelinda Snodgrass is really good friends with George RR Martin of Game of Thrones fame. The sci-fi series “The Expanse” is based on a role playing game that Melinda ran with George & the two guys that wrote the Expanse novels under the pen name James S. A. Corey. Pretty cool that whole book and tv series was based on a tabletop game Melinda was running w/George Martin.
Matt Everkoul
2024-06-08 01:35:08 +0000 UTCTo clarify - this wasnt banned in the UK and Ireland because of the broad themes. It was banned because it directly referenced a "Irish Reunification of 2024" as part of ST's history, which at time of transmission (1990) was very recent / ongoing with The Troubles in Northern Ireland - and well before the Good Friday peace agreement was signed. It would be akin to Star Trek describing the "US defeat in Afghanistan of 2021" - back in 2003 when 9/11 was still fresh.
The Ninth Doctor
2024-06-06 14:16:24 +0000 UTCGreat show. I fear we won't see more of it, sadly. And the Doctor's boys must be about grown by now. I really wish they would go back to 20+ episodes per season though. With more episodes they have more time to really explore the characters, giving them each whole shows. Such a richer experience. I'd be more than happy to dial back the budget to get that.
David Scudder
2024-06-02 07:16:05 +0000 UTCBased on why you like Star Trek - I think you might ABSOLULTELY LOVE The Orville. Starts as a Star Trek Parody show but by Season 2 it becomes a spiritual successor to Trek with more humor and a lot of interpersonal stories. Maybe peek at it :)
MrTickleTrunk
2024-05-30 15:54:03 +0000 UTCI can say thats part of the mentality when working on them- its about whats fun and cool first since its no longer about racing. Its like international spy stuff now, but being ridiculous is a part of it. Sometimes people are determined to take thing seriously though.
Nathan Koga
2024-05-30 15:05:06 +0000 UTCI will never watch a "Fast & Furious" film (because I'm not a 12-year-old boy) but my best friend thinks they're great because they are sooo ridiculous and over the top, it's a contest to top themselves.
Jovet
2024-05-30 05:14:29 +0000 UTC@Steven Johnson If you really want a D minus, that sounds like some kind of surgical operation. . .
Jovet
2024-05-30 05:11:48 +0000 UTC"so frank about their methods" he's talking about when Finn explains why he wants the Federation to get involved as part of his strategy for victory. Without referring to sides or morality, this is also the strategy of Hamas as they know they can't win a conventional military struggle against Israel and are hoping international pressure will force the Israelis to make concessions. This is not unique to Hamas, its a common strategy of terrorists.
paultardspambot .
2024-05-29 19:26:06 +0000 UTCsorry for the separate replies but I wanted to add something. In a situation where a group is being oppressed or feel that they are, its often the police forces that are responsible for that, not the actual military forces as they deal with foreign threats while the group fighting their oppression is inside the boundaries of the nation. This allows oppressive regimes to call them "terrorists" because they are forced to conduct assymetric warfare whether they kill civlians as part of their methods.
paultardspambot .
2024-05-29 19:23:37 +0000 UTCas an example, lets say you were a partisan fighting the Nazis. Killing Werchmact vs Ordnungspolizei or Gestapo doesn't make an etical difference where bombing a bus full of german children would. You can call your armed forces anything you want to paint your enemies as in the wrong.
paultardspambot .
2024-05-29 19:18:30 +0000 UTCwell, the "ethical" point is civlians aren't fighting. Police forces are carrying guns and are engaged in violence. Its a meaningful ethical difference however you define the technical terms, and people are always "migrating" terms for political purposes, like calling protestors "economic terrorists"
paultardspambot .
2024-05-29 19:14:10 +0000 UTCThis is at best a grey area, but police aren't generally a military target unless they have adopted a military role.
Sherpa Jones
2024-05-29 18:04:15 +0000 UTCI've seen this episode at least 50 times and now that I'm 44 I think the head cop chick is smokin. Lol
Matthew Beek
2024-05-28 23:41:52 +0000 UTCat the very beginning of the episode when the attack happened on the surface. they didnt want to beam up dr crusher as she was treating the injured and it would anger her. so they could beam her up along with the casualties like they did a few episodes before
Narnman
2024-05-28 23:28:51 +0000 UTCThey didn't know where they were. Their hideout was like 300 miles below ground or something.
Clyde Frog
2024-05-28 23:10:45 +0000 UTC"does it matter whether its a police transport or a bus full of children?" Yes, it does. One is a legitimate military target, the other is civilian. That's the difference between terrorism and war. States will often call opponents "terrorists" but the "special evil" designation is meant to be for the killing of civilians for political aims. The police forces are fighting against the rebel forces, the fact the conflict is asymmetric as opposed to on a regular battlefield makes no difference
paultardspambot .
2024-05-28 00:35:40 +0000 UTCsince they could beam up the away team after the attack happened couldnt they just beam up dr crusher with the patients at the same time??
Narnman
2024-05-27 21:57:36 +0000 UTCYou guys do great work. Don’t dwell on the hate comments.
Just another Red Shirt
2024-05-27 21:56:23 +0000 UTCThe chief medical officer on a ship (not the only doctor) can declare a captain not competent and relieve of duty ..but they can't order the captain to do things or over rule them just cause
Derek Orr
2024-05-27 21:54:11 +0000 UTCAs someone working in film and TV, this kind of thing is concerning when reading about released things. People also take shows literally when it comes to "how does an airplane/bus/car work?" and they assume that everything they see must be plausible. Even for things like Fast & Furious, theres an assumption that it must be partially realistic.
Nathan Koga
2024-05-27 21:45:39 +0000 UTCSouth Sudan split from Sudan after 98.8% of voters agreed to it in a referendum in 2011. Yeay for progress, because that's the only peaceful example I can think of! You're right, there's usually a war!
Leyton Jay
2024-05-27 21:09:20 +0000 UTCThe way people react to some protagonists has me worried actually. The amount of people who think Walter White was "Bad Ass" when in reality he's a giant pathetic loser that couldn't be a bigger coward and worse human being, is beyond me.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-05-27 20:59:23 +0000 UTCI love Beverly Crusher centric episodes, she showed bravery during her helping of the casualties of the bombing and strength during her capture. And on the bridge with Picard giving the leader a right hook then diving on him was great tv. It’s worth noting that when Data studies instances when terrorism has worked, he notes that Ireland was unified in 2024. (Almost mirrors real life as although Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom it is governed by the majority party Sein Fein in the North & South) As a result, this episode was not originally shown by the BBC in the United Kingdom due to the then ongoing conflict in Northern Ireland known as the Troubles. It was not broadcast by RTE in the Republic of Ireland, during the show's run though UK broadcasts were received there. Initial UK airings were edited and shown for the first time in 1992. The episode was broadcast unedited in 2006. I like how it ends on a positive note alluding to possible peace as while terrorism has happened a lot in the our world to further the cause of independence, most of the British Empire declared independence prior to the end of empire. And most recently the United Kingdom left the European Union.
Graeme Park
2024-05-27 17:37:42 +0000 UTCnever had a Twitter or TicToc account :-D
Adam from Germany
2024-05-27 16:17:43 +0000 UTCI am very impressed by Josh's speech on why he likes Star Trek so much. I feel the same way - I desperately need ongoing creative input - that doesn't mean I always need something "new" or something particularly " diverting". It just has to be an interesting story and as credible as possible within the respective universe. And Star Trek offers me that. The fantasy sci-fi background in particular means that the wildest stories can be told here. - And I love the technobabble - I don't know if it's because I come from an IT background, but I usually understand exactly what they're talking about (i.e. in meaning, not in scientific detail) ;-)
Adam from Germany
2024-05-27 15:38:41 +0000 UTCStar Trek's focus was examining the human condition with sci-fi as the backdrop. That makes it so different from Star Wars, as that is a straightforward sci-fi opera. My favorite thing about Star Trek is how it offers something for everyone. As a kid, it was all about the spaceships, battles, and cool sci-fi. Now that I'm almost 40, I love the character stuff because I relate to that more through my life experiences. I still love the cool ships and sci-fi stuff, but golden age Star Trek never forgot the characters in all the sci-fi stuff. You'll see more examples of this as the show continues. My favorite sci-fi examines how people react to all of the crazy stuff happening around them. It can be therapeutic at times, like in the bonding.
Justin B
2024-05-27 15:05:18 +0000 UTCAnd some days it's cringy-preachy upside-down.
Jovet
2024-05-27 14:30:26 +0000 UTCBTW, Melinda Snodgrass wrote "Up the Long Ladder." Sorry to remind you.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-05-27 13:53:10 +0000 UTCI also thought the Rutian plaza might have been a real location (a shopping mall?). Believe it or not, it was actually the Enterprise shuttlebay redressed!
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-05-27 13:31:02 +0000 UTCI don't care for many war movies, although I'm more open to good period pieces. That being said, "Master and Commander" is just a spectacular film.
Lovok
2024-05-27 12:58:47 +0000 UTCMost if not all of us are all drawn to Star Trek because of the characters I think. Star Trek is a lot of different things to different people and that’s cool but for me, it’s people in space - humans in space. Starships are cool too. As a kid I was a little disappointed when the episodes focused solely on the characters and got a little too obsessed with the FX stuff but both go hand in hand. The great Star Trek episodes/movies have a mixture of both 🖖
Jon1701
2024-05-27 10:04:58 +0000 UTCThey will "discover" that all to well eventually.
Tristan Rose
2024-05-27 07:35:34 +0000 UTCJust the way they cut that scene Worf was not very quick on the draw. Wesley was the first to render Worf aid. Data was slower than Picard to defend. 😂
Philbot
2024-05-27 07:30:56 +0000 UTCStar Trek's strong point has always been its three dimensional characters. Going all the way back to the beginning at a time when Trek was in a sea of TV shows full of two dimensional characters who could never deviate from their formulaic construction. Star Trek was different. Imagine Matt Dillan and Doc Adams on Gunsmoke having a conversation like the one between Kirk and McCoy in Kirk's quarters in "Balance of Terror." Forget it. Gene Roddenberry's vision for the show was always as a strong character drama against the background of Science Fiction. That's why the show, along with its younger siblings, stand out and hold up so well after all these years and continue to play in syndication all over the world.
Dan Krantz
2024-05-27 07:25:41 +0000 UTCJosh doesn't like war movies or period pieces. I now regret my vote for watching Master and Commander. Oh well, given that Josh also likes horror movies and I have no interest in them at all just shows that Star Trek can bring different people together! :)
Joe Concepts
2024-05-27 05:47:03 +0000 UTC“...that's why we told you it's so much better at presenting topics thsn modern crap” Sometimes. Not every time.
Jovet
2024-05-27 05:26:35 +0000 UTCWhat you've described about issues of today being portrayed in a futuristic sci-fi setting was exactly what Gene Roddenberry set out to do when he first conceived Star Trek. I guess he accomplished his goal.
Collin Freeman
2024-05-27 04:58:22 +0000 UTC"This is why I love Star Trek specifically, because they can take these issues and present them in a sci fi setting and let you decide. I hope there's someone out there who can understand that." Uhh... only every Star Trek Fan ever?? Lol. Why do you guys think we fell in love with Trek in the first place? :P that's why we told you it's so much better at presenting topics thsn modern crap
Andreas Schmitt
2024-05-27 04:29:48 +0000 UTCWE OWN THE FINISH LINE! 🇺🇸 🥇 🦅 🍔
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-05-27 03:53:50 +0000 UTCThere was a distinct lack of dick and fart jokes in this discussion of a serious issue. I'm torn between saying "Well done" and "DISSAPPOINTED...!!!"
Steven Johnson
2024-05-27 03:43:39 +0000 UTCAmerica is unreasonably hard. We do not fly staffs at half mast in America, son. We bleed red white and blue. These colors don't run. GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME D- .. Sorry, I entered a fugue state. What happened?
Steven Johnson
2024-05-27 03:43:06 +0000 UTCWait! The guest star’s name is Richard Cox and not one comment?!!
Stephen Wright
2024-05-27 03:38:03 +0000 UTCAfter giving this more thought the problem I have with this is there is no “Trek” resolution. The Federation are observers and at the end they are still observers. Nothing gets resolved. Get Dr. Crusher and let’s leave these people to kill each other!
Stephen Wright
2024-05-27 03:31:07 +0000 UTCThat America edit went unreasonably hard. Also, the episode was banned SPECIFICALLY due to the line about Irish unification, as this was still during the Troubles.
Evan Guthrie
2024-05-27 02:07:12 +0000 UTCSome days, Star Trek is a good sci-fi show. Other days, Star Trek is a good show with a sci-fi setting.
Evan Guthrie
2024-05-27 01:56:14 +0000 UTCI like all the Ships & Lasers, but hey I'm with you Star Trek's strengths is the Drama & the Moral dilemmas
Justin DiBari
2024-05-27 01:45:28 +0000 UTCStar Trek was always about using a sci-fi veneer to describe real-world issues. You are part of a long and honored lineage.
Eric Singer
2024-05-27 01:39:22 +0000 UTCAs usual, a very deep and thought-provoking discussion. Great job guys! I've read that the creators of this episode were dissapointed that it didn't quite land the way they wanted. Now you can say that you've seen the most controversial episode in TNG.
T’Pynyn of Vulcan
2024-05-27 01:28:52 +0000 UTCWell, he was two-thirds of the way across the bridge, and not point-blank like the two in the corridor on deck 12 or whatever it was. They're not soldiers so they likely have awful aim. 🙂
Jovet
2024-05-27 01:27:27 +0000 UTCIts a good thing Worf had that Plot Armor on. The terrorist shoot to kill everyone - except the head of security - he just gets shot in the leg.
Kyle Stewart
2024-05-27 01:23:17 +0000 UTC29:20 Put your arms up (albows above your shoulder) and cough.
Jovet
2024-05-27 01:21:54 +0000 UTC25:05 Achieving disgust and sympathy for the terrorist is a testament to good or clever writing. But some of the things the characters in this story say or believe are pretty ridiculous.
Jovet
2024-05-27 01:17:47 +0000 UTC24:00 "Dammit, Jean Luc, I'm a doctor, not a coward!!"
Jovet
2024-05-27 01:16:38 +0000 UTCWell I'm just glad you guys didn't mind this episode as I was afraid these last couple would be a huge let down after The Defector. I personally like 12 of the remaining 14 episodes left in season 3 and there are none as bad as this 1 imho. Let's see if you guys agree!
Trouty McTroutTrout
2024-05-27 01:16:32 +0000 UTC19:45 That's a very reasonable response! Don't worry about not crying. You guys are totally gonna lose your shit, very soon.
Jovet
2024-05-27 01:12:14 +0000 UTCYou're probably safe.
KatWithAttitude
2024-05-27 01:10:21 +0000 UTC14:10 I agree. Fictional things like Star Trek are more whimsical. Real stuff that happened (e.g. war movies, wars that happened) are somber and serious. Speaking to Josh, I could see (I WAS watching you guys! LOL) that some of the things happening hit you in the feels. War movies are just a string of those types of things.
Jovet
2024-05-27 01:07:21 +0000 UTC12:55 The word you want is "preachy" ... it doesn't always respect its audience, there's a very fine line between "poignant story about current events" and preaching (...a social or political agenda).
Jovet
2024-05-27 01:05:52 +0000 UTCOnly thing I have to say is watch for Ireland this year 8)
Jiri Luza
2024-05-27 01:04:43 +0000 UTCYou’d think their equipment would include something like an Apple AirTag
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-05-27 01:02:45 +0000 UTCYep.
Jovet
2024-05-27 00:53:18 +0000 UTCGreat balanced and gracious analysis of the episode. I feel pretty much the same way about the episode. Unfortunately it is a timeless episode because humans haven't seemed to figure out how to not repeat history. You guys are getting sooooo close to some great episodes to come. Your patience will be rewarded.
Andrea R
2024-05-27 00:53:13 +0000 UTCI figured they didn't use the transporter because they had no idea where they were, until Wes was able to pinpoint their power source. Their exact location was shielded. Once Finn transported to the ship and talked to Troi, Wes got the power source location and were able to use transporters to send in the team
Eric Kelly
2024-05-27 00:45:59 +0000 UTCFirst Lol
Greg Quinn
2024-05-27 00:38:11 +0000 UTC
