Target Audience / FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S3E5

I think the whole point of having the alien character was to give Ron Moore a way to pitch his view on grief against Gene's. Gene believed that by the 24th century, we wouldn't have grief anymore. He saw it as something bad that we would overcome. A form of suffering that we would no longer have to deal with just like hunger and poverty. So of course we have an alien character here who thinks the solution to Jeremy losing his mother is to just make the grief go away. Grief is suffering, grief is bad. Why put a child through that? Grief should just be gone just the way that Gene wanted it to be. Except that's not how it works, nor should it, and Ron Moore shows us exactly why. The entire episode is a presentation to convince the alien that grief is an essential part of human nature. It's not going to ever just go away. We need it to heal, and to live life. If we don't grief, we stay stuck in a fantasy never accepting reality. Finally at the end when everyone fully lets out the grieving process for the alien to see, the alien finally sees why the crew resisted her "help". She finally understands at least a little, that grief is positive and necessary, and mortal beings need it. This concept eluded her because her race is immortal, so they never had to deal with death. And apparently it convinced Gene enough as well to let the episode make it on the air. Though at that point, I'm not sure how much influence he still had.

BN13

2024-05-16 14:56:18 +0000 UTC

I have to disagree. Grew up with TNG and this is definitely one of my favorite eps. I tear up every time. This, for me, is what Trek is about.

Artribution

2024-05-09 03:58:42 +0000 UTC

I believe the scene with worf and troi was in the computer core but I might be off

Evan Guthrie

2024-05-04 19:56:57 +0000 UTC

I did enjoy the episode more this time, I usually skip it in a rewatch but the first 20 mins were better than i thought

Jon1701

2024-05-04 16:17:05 +0000 UTC

My experience was the same as yours. I do better appreciate the first half. It's solid character work and acting, but the alien of the week took this one down. I see what they were trying to do, establishing that you can't escape your grief, but they should've done the original holodeck idea. Have it be the boy in denial, not some random alien that is no more than a plot device. I view this episode as a victim of the weekly episodic format. A serialized show has the time to stop and take a breath every once in a while.

Justin B

2024-05-04 14:23:15 +0000 UTC

I'm probably one of the few who ever noticed....but one of the scenes where they showed the planets surface early into the episode was actually orbital images of Mars. I always thought it was a bit of a cheap rip off.

Monty Crawford

2024-05-04 04:57:25 +0000 UTC

Gene was there until the end of season 4, although slowly diminishing.

tyranusfan

2024-05-04 00:52:54 +0000 UTC

Would you like to see more cats in TNG?

tyranusfan

2024-05-04 00:36:45 +0000 UTC

"No one is alone on the Enterprise. " chills...

Michael Metrick

2024-05-04 00:09:27 +0000 UTC

I thought that I hated this episode, and skipped the uncut reaction and just watched the discussion... only to realize that this wasn't the episode I was thinking of. Now I have to go watch the episode with your reaction :) This is one of the lower rated episodes of the season, as you pointed out in the reaction, so the fact that you guys still loved it is great.

Adam Zey

2024-05-03 23:32:02 +0000 UTC

My assumption was that it was the security office, probably in proximity to the main brig. This is where Worf would spend a fair amount of his on duty hours when not on the bridge.

Sherpa Jones

2024-05-03 22:34:12 +0000 UTC

The interference of the being also created the necessity to bring forward his feelings of anger towards Worf much sooner than might have felt natural otherwise, considering Wesley held on to them secretly for much longer than could fit into one episode. It was such a beautiful way to provide a character moment for almost everyone: Beverly, Wesley, & Picard around the loss of Jack crusher, Worf and his Klingon sensibilities around the death of a subordinate and caring for her child as well as losing his own parents, Data and Riker struggling to conceptualize grieving from their own unique positions, Riker revealing the burden of command to Wesley when asked how he gets used to it. Diana flourishing in her role as a counsellor. The only one we really didn't get anything from was Geordie.

Sherpa Jones

2024-05-03 22:32:14 +0000 UTC

This is one of the shows that really anchors Picard to me as the father figure I never had. It brings up so many deep feelings of losing my father before I was born, even though he is still alive. His job in police work took his soul away and left him a bitter man broken by PTSD. He had to tell other people their loved one wasn't coming back all the time. Yet no-one ever sat me down and gently delivered the cold hard news that my dad was gone and would just be a shell of a man that I would always hope would show me love but never would.

Sherpa Jones

2024-05-03 22:27:10 +0000 UTC

To be fair we really don't get to meet the mother. We just get to meet a visual representation of her by an alien energy force that doesn't really understand humanity. I don't think we were ever supposed to like her.

Sherpa Jones

2024-05-03 22:23:01 +0000 UTC

I've always been skeptical of Troi's therapy being either outdated by today's standards or just not very well based in psychology. How would you rate her techniques based on what we know today vs what we knew in the 80's?

Sherpa Jones

2024-05-03 22:19:16 +0000 UTC

I was just thinking about a change to they story that might have been a bit more satisfying with regards to the weight of the presence of the alien energy being. They could have had the alien being succeed in transporting the boy to the surface, and the end scene in the fantasy earth home could be set up there. The aliens are very forceful in preventing his rescue to the point where the enterprise has to consider taking aggressive action to get him back. But before they do, Picard and Troi beam down to try to negotiate his release, and eventually call for Worf & Wesley. They could show the alien also showing some acknowledgement that their attempt to give him back his mother would take from him so much more. This could only require a few short scenes to establish the threat posed, a plan for their aggressive response if necessary, and would give Riker something to do on the bridge while Picard is handling the situation personally.

Sherpa Jones

2024-05-03 22:17:27 +0000 UTC

One of these discussions will end with the cat tearing down the greenscreen- I can feel it.

Nathan Koga

2024-05-03 21:49:22 +0000 UTC

Rob Reiner was able to pull a great performance out of Wil Wheaton in STAND BY ME.

Michael Nemo

2024-05-03 21:07:10 +0000 UTC

I was 20 when I saw this originally. Now that I'm a Marriage and Family therapist in real life, I'd never noticed how Troi actually does FAMILY therapy in this. Very interesting.

Michael Nemo

2024-05-03 20:53:19 +0000 UTC

You guys seem to love this episode and most of us think it's okay, pretty good. I think I can pin down the reason. The things you guys loved about this episode essentially become a standard part of the show going forward and quite frankly done a lot better. So as a result, it doesn't jump off the page at us and you guys haven't yet seen how much better it can get yet.

Mordock_Vapelord

2024-05-03 19:51:19 +0000 UTC

Idk if a holo mom would have worked “as well. Because while a mom recreation” could help provide closure. It wouldn’t offer him the chance to escape his grief and live in the past long term like an Alien entity can.

Philbot

2024-05-03 18:04:33 +0000 UTC

I think that the implicit resolution with the energy being was that it recognized that humans can fill in the missing spaces when a loved one passes, and that the crew of the Enterprise were naturally involved in his grieving and healing process. And that an illusion of his mother was taking so much more away from him than the loss he already experienced.

Sherpa Jones

2024-05-03 17:09:21 +0000 UTC

This episode is overshadowed by what is yet to come. It was like as if the writers heard that the audiences liked character episodes and said, "f@#$!ng hold my beer. Buckle up buttercup."

Miah1138

2024-05-03 16:58:50 +0000 UTC

I think the scene with Worf and Troi was in the security station/office which is Worf's department. Could have even been in proximity to the brig. That is where Worf would likely spend his on duty hours when not on a bridge watch.

Sherpa Jones

2024-05-03 16:58:02 +0000 UTC

I think these commercials make the show look lame as hell

Justin DiBari

2024-05-03 16:48:39 +0000 UTC

They have been Thursday and Sunday since starting the season, and will continue to be so unless said otherwise.

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-05-03 16:45:58 +0000 UTC

Not always as they mentioned...

Andrew Bassey

2024-05-03 15:53:43 +0000 UTC

There are always 2 a week.

Sam Langanke

2024-05-03 15:46:10 +0000 UTC

The difficult thing here is just how we define "emotions." Data frequently says that he "wishes" to do things or "desires" such and such. If he truly had zero emotions, he would not be capable of wanting things. My take on it is that the complexity of his positronic brain simply can't help but bestow SOME degree of emotion to him. It's just a very low level ability to desire things and have friends. Stronger emotions like anger, humor, and sorrow are beyond him and even the ones he does have are miniscule enough that Troi can't detect them, but they are clearly there.

Steve Boshear

2024-05-03 15:36:26 +0000 UTC

On original viewing, I liked it. seeing it again and hearing your views I love it and as we all grow up can relate to it more in some shape or form. Thank you ! When will you increase your S3 reactions to more than 1 a week? ;) Can't wait for more in this EPIC season!

Andrew Bassey

2024-05-03 15:32:56 +0000 UTC

I gave this a 4/10 prior to rewatching it with you guys. I think watching it originally as a kid, the emotional stuff was just nothing to me. I was into Star Trek for the scifi, and the scifi elements of this one suck. I have seen it since then, of course, but because of that original impression, I never really took it seriously or watched with a more critical eye. After rewatching with you, on the whole, I liked and disliked the same things as you guys, but the dislikes for me were much stronger. The random creature from the planet disguised as an 80's mom is... really bad. You guys were kind of willing to ignore it. Me, not so much. But I will upgrade my rating to a 7/10 on the strength of the first half, which is something I never recognized before.

Steve Boshear

2024-05-03 14:48:21 +0000 UTC

There are no "the" fans. Everybody has his own perspective.

Sam Langanke

2024-05-03 14:45:41 +0000 UTC

I was thinking it might be better to do a tier ranking for every episode then rank the S tier ones

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-05-03 14:40:23 +0000 UTC

You defenitely have to do a Top 10 list at the end of this season. 5 would not be enough.

Sam Langanke

2024-05-03 14:37:56 +0000 UTC

The real truth behind the Eugenics Wars.

Teek

2024-05-03 14:18:38 +0000 UTC

Yup. I read the novelization of Star Trek VI before seeing it and I would actually say it gave me a deeper appreciation for the movie. There are details expounded on in the books that are less fully explored onscreen.

Steve Boshear

2024-05-03 13:59:16 +0000 UTC

Donald F. Glut's novelization of "The Empire Strikes Back," complete with the climactic revelation about Vader, was published on April 12, 1980, 39 days before the film went into wide release on May 21. If that happened today, there would be riots in the streets. I myself read the comic book adaptation of Star Trek VI before seeing the movie in 1991, the novelization of the Deep Space Nine pilot before the episode aired in 1993, and an adaptation of another important Star Trek production in the 1990s (which it may be better not to identify in order to avoid spoilers completely) before seeing the on-screen version. In each case, it didn't bother me that I knew the plot of the story in advance; it allowed me to focus on the finer details of how the story was told. I also always stayed tuned through the commercial break after Act 5 of a new TNG episode so as not to miss the trailer for the next one (they aired immediately prior to the closing credits).

Anthony Bernacchi

2024-05-03 13:55:57 +0000 UTC

The interesting thing about media is that you bring your personal experiences with you as you watch and interpret them. This was always a skipped episode for me because I've been watching TNG since childhood, and this episode was "boring" because it was just a bunch of people talking. Now I'm 38 and have lost several people, including my mom and my wife, and I have two grieving children. Because of this new set of experiences, I take much more out of this episode because these are the kinds of conversations I've now had to have with family and my children. My daughter was 14 and my son was 11 at the time my wife died. As Alex said, this episode is now therapy. I wouldn't call it one of my favorites, as I think there are other character-focused moments that are stronger, both in TNG and especially in DS9 (Alex, just wait for that one), but I have a newfound respect for this episode.

Justin B

2024-05-03 13:53:10 +0000 UTC

It was still standing from "Evolution," so it was available.

Anthony Bernacchi

2024-05-03 13:44:25 +0000 UTC

They gave her the opportunity to read for any of the three female regulars -- Troi, Tasha or Crusher. McFadden asked which one was "the funniest lady," so they gave her the only funny audition scene for any of them, the attempted seduction of Picard in "The Naked Now." Only after getting the role did she realize she wouldn't get to do much comedy in it (although of course Crusher has comedic moments, such as hiking up the hem of her skirt and swallowing her chewing gum in "The Big Goodbye").

Anthony Bernacchi

2024-05-03 13:43:49 +0000 UTC

To be fair, its been years since I tried to watch this one properly. I enjoyed the first 20 mins but it goes off the rails once the alien aspect comes in for me. As for the kid / he is such an evil son of a bitch in Robocop 2 its difficult to get past that but I still don’t like the mother.

Jon1701

2024-05-03 12:20:03 +0000 UTC

Hahaha. Sorry Josh. 😂😂

Jon1701

2024-05-03 12:18:12 +0000 UTC

Also real quick because it came up, Wil Wheaton was born in 1972, so at the start of Season 3 airing in 1989 he was actually 17. From what I can tell, Wesley is always Wil's actual age.

JHVJ

2024-05-03 08:55:53 +0000 UTC

the boy actor is the evil kid in Robocop 2 :) he is such a jerk in that movie, that its hard to feel sorry for him

doctorgore

2024-05-03 08:48:09 +0000 UTC

Whaaaaat? That boy actor is Littlefoot??? .... never knew ...

JHVJ

2024-05-03 08:27:41 +0000 UTC

I cannot begin to express how happy it makes me to see your appreciation of Gates McFadden. Again, no disrespect to Diana Muldaur, but Gates and Crusher just really click with TNG, and her more natural acting style helps add believability to the sci-fi theatrics.

Glenn Johnson Barnes

2024-05-03 05:51:48 +0000 UTC

Like so many random sets, I bet it was a redress of the battle bridge

JGoss

2024-05-03 05:26:43 +0000 UTC

Thanks Eric. I now look forward to ragging about Brannon Braga :P

JGoss

2024-05-03 05:23:29 +0000 UTC

He could be a space calico. Or if humanity can solve war, poverty, disease, maybe they could solve male calicos!

JGoss

2024-05-03 05:20:59 +0000 UTC

LOL at the endings! Yeah it's got all the character and emotional stuff there for sure. It's not one I rewatch that often but only because it's hard on the emotions. It's beautifully written and deserves more love.

Trouty McTroutTrout

2024-05-03 04:56:12 +0000 UTC

I'll be the annoying nit-picker and point out that calico cats are mostly all female. Jeremy refers to Patches as "he". Calico males are extremely rare genetic anomalies.

Screaming Frog

2024-05-03 04:44:44 +0000 UTC

The rage quit 🤣🤣🤣

Andrea R

2024-05-03 04:38:42 +0000 UTC

I might be about to blow your minds, but BACK IN MY DAY people just really didn't care about spoilers as much as they do now. Obviously if a movie had a surprise ending, people wouldn't want to be told that in advance, but this thing of the trailer "giving away" the plot of a single TV episode... we would have said "Yeah, that's the point of it." I remember me and my film school friends in the year 2000 complaining when trailers started coming out that didn't even tell you what the dang movie was about! How were we supposed to know whether we wanted to watch it? I think what changed was the internet and specifically social media. It became so easy to get accidentally spoiled on every single detail that people overreacted and swung back the other way. Now it's a cardinal sin to say anything at all and I know people who refuse to watch trailers for anything.

Steve Boshear

2024-05-03 04:31:50 +0000 UTC

Now you have a good grasp of why we all hold Season 3 on wards in such high regard.

James Knight

2024-05-03 04:00:54 +0000 UTC

While generally true, there can still be some exceptions. For example, Leonard Nimoy being the director of Star Trek III got a great big reaction from J&A that was great! That could've been a non-moment had they known in advance. Always protect the big reveals, even the ones in the credits 👍

James Bottas

2024-05-03 03:42:04 +0000 UTC

Great discussion. You two are really hitting your stride! Great job! There is a Vulcan ritual that marks this level of attainment but you would not be able to pronounce it. 😉 🖖

T’Pynyn of Vulcan

2024-05-03 03:37:21 +0000 UTC

Love good character episodes like this one.

DustmanNorochj

2024-05-03 03:28:14 +0000 UTC

Kolbe getting artsy

JD Nevesytrof

2024-05-03 03:28:05 +0000 UTC

Honestly I appreciate splitting up episodes where you feel the need, and if you wanted to make that standard procedure I think it'd actually be a productive change.

JD Nevesytrof

2024-05-03 03:27:39 +0000 UTC

Yeah you're right, that's an exaggeration. But I can feel RDM's fingerprints on the script, and having it be a holodeck rather than an alien would have been so much better.

Eric Brinkmann

2024-05-03 03:12:09 +0000 UTC

That's a bit harsh. Also, Melinda Snodgrass had numerous uncredited rewrites and polishes of the script, since it was Moore's first. He credits her for making it a cohesive final product.

JGoss

2024-05-03 02:48:14 +0000 UTC

Yes, but then you have a guy like Michael Piller that oversees the overall output. Checks and balances are key

JGoss

2024-05-03 02:45:07 +0000 UTC

Agreed ;)

Atieh B

2024-05-03 02:43:44 +0000 UTC

Thanks for the history. That makes so much sense. All the parts of the episode that I love are Moore's, and all the stuff that holds this back from being a great episode is due to Gene.

Eric Brinkmann

2024-05-03 02:34:08 +0000 UTC

As for not knowing any writers' names besides DC Fontana and Melinda Snodgrass (and now Ron Moore), don't worry-- I'm sure as you progress thru TNG and then DS9 there'll be several names you come to recognize.

Moonlander

2024-05-03 02:32:50 +0000 UTC

I asked this on Discord as a result of this episode--everyone is talking about Ronald D. Moore. The consensus seems to be that the mods are concerned only about on-screen stuff and acting appearances. Writers/directors seem to be ok.

Eric Brinkmann

2024-05-03 02:28:33 +0000 UTC

I am discovering that episodes the fans like are ones you find okay and the stuff the fans find okay, you like a lot. I have no problem with that. I just need to start lowering my expectations when it comes to my favorite upcoming episodes. Though I know there are a few coming up where we will agree to their overwhelming awesomeness. Love to hear your opinions, though!

wildhunt1973

2024-05-03 02:20:44 +0000 UTC

Josh and Alex talking about 'the alien monster wants to eat the kid' was absolutely hilarious! Total opposite of this episode, you're right! An important point (I think) is that the entity felt guilty itself... it/they allowed the Away Team to have the accident in the first place. If the entities had removed the booby traps earlier, it wouldn't have happened. If they had poked its "head" up and said "Hi, be careful around here, let us remove these undetectable mines so you don't get hurt here," it wouldn't have happened. What we know the entities know and when they know it about the mines is up for debate, but if this were a legal case, negligence would be a consideration.

Jovet

2024-05-03 02:19:52 +0000 UTC

Bingo! 👍

Jovet

2024-05-03 02:13:23 +0000 UTC

@James Goss There's a fine line there. "Loving the franchise" can quickly devolve into fan fiction. "Fan service" can be the same.

Jovet

2024-05-03 02:10:07 +0000 UTC

A new thought I've just had: why didn't the 'energy beings' just introduce themselves and say Hi?

Jovet

2024-05-03 02:06:02 +0000 UTC

Nah, I maintain Data does not have emotions. He's literally not programmed for them. This discussion is probably better after a certain episode this season, but.... I maintain that Data's writing isn't always "android-ian enough," but it's still more plausible to me that his living amongst emotional beings has taught him to anticipate and react to their behaviors as best he can, with at times some mimicry. Just because he mimics certain ‘emotional insights’ doesn't mean he has them, though.

Jovet

2024-05-03 02:03:14 +0000 UTC

The weird mystery grid room where Worf and Troi had their scene is a Computer Server Access Room. You saw one 4 episodes ago in "Evolution," the episode with the nanites. Why are Worf and Troi having their scene there? No reason other than for the visual, I would guess -- the patterned walls and overall framing make it feel like a cage, which is very appropriate to Worf's state of mind in that moment.

Avaria

2024-05-03 01:43:29 +0000 UTC

Fun fact talking about Gates McFadden at the 6 minute mark, she originally thought her character was supposed to be comic relief because in her audition they were having her read lines from The Naked Now😂

Hannah Huntington

2024-05-03 01:16:12 +0000 UTC

Great reaction and discussion. I always loved this episode because of the entity being benevolent. It was a refreshing change for me. If the entity was malicious, the survival of the kid would have taken priority. Basically, nobody would care how he feels as long as he survives and he can deal with emotions later. In this case the entity wasn’t malicious, and was trying to help. So they were able to focus on the kid’s emotions and find ways to discuss death and grief. In the end, by convincing the entity, they also helped the kid to start to deal with his trauma. Thanks :)

Atieh B

2024-05-03 00:55:45 +0000 UTC

By the end, Roddenberry was communicating through his “lawyer” Leonard Maizlish. There was a lot of suspicion that Maizlish was offering his own personal opinions.

Aramis Calcutt

2024-05-03 00:47:06 +0000 UTC

This one hit more with me now than when it first aired for that very reason. It reminded me of the loss of my mom.

Collin Freeman

2024-05-03 00:46:48 +0000 UTC

If you like character-driven episodes, then you're in for a good ride.

Collin Freeman

2024-05-03 00:45:40 +0000 UTC

My guess, it will be a distant memory when they do their end of series retrospective.

JGoss

2024-05-03 00:34:41 +0000 UTC

Condolences for your Dad

Josh (Target Audience)

2024-05-03 00:12:06 +0000 UTC

Yeah, the camera lingered on her a little too early to make sense. I suppose she could have been sensing something with the energy beings on the surface, but then it was a surprise to her when one came to the ship, so eh?

JGoss

2024-05-03 00:02:27 +0000 UTC

True but by the time the guys get there they'll have forgotten I ever wrote this lol. So I tried to limit it to TNG and just mentioned he's around a long time past TNG, so they have a long Ron Moore Journey ahead

Andreas Schmitt

2024-05-02 23:58:45 +0000 UTC

Well yeah, story by Maurice Hurley, screenplay by blah blah... I mean that episode was obviously a mishmash and everybody put their stuff in :D The original plot (if you can call it that) was Hurley yes. But Manning and Beimler worked on the screenplay together with Hurley.

Andreas Schmitt

2024-05-02 23:54:59 +0000 UTC

Data totally has emotions. He just doesn't have all of them or the means to properly express them. Riker sets up his character in the pilot with "nice to meet you, Pinocchio."

Steven Johnson

2024-05-02 23:53:59 +0000 UTC

Is future production history on the table, not considering spoilers? I just wanted to know what the limits were. That said, Moore's DS9 involvement was much larger than just working on some scripts. He wrote more for that than TNG, and was co-executive producer for the final three seasons.

JGoss

2024-05-02 23:52:20 +0000 UTC

Huh. I always thought Maurice Hurley wrote SoG? Was that a case of passing the ball?

Steven Johnson

2024-05-02 23:52:14 +0000 UTC

I'm just glad I didn't give a longer, more detailed take. I've looked through the upcoming episodes (7-10) so I don't make a similar mistake. I didn't think top 10 all of Star Trek all time. (And it won't stay there, I don't think.)

John

2024-05-02 23:51:21 +0000 UTC

Another writer name you might want to keep looking for is Richard Manning. He wrote "Arsensal of Freedom", "Symbiosis", "The Schizoid Man", "The Emissary" and "Shades of Gray (don't hold that against him) in the 1st and 2nd seasons and "Who watches the Watchers" and others you'll see during this one

Andreas Schmitt

2024-05-02 23:49:50 +0000 UTC

Even though you mixed up the episode, your take still fit. It's considered an ok / meh episode. And we usually get it wrong when we think they'll dislike an episode, but they end up liking it anyway.

JGoss

2024-05-02 23:48:43 +0000 UTC

38:34 I like that, your thoughts are fresh right after watching it. If you're going to keep releasing the second weekly episode on Sunday, then best to discuss after each one! 👍

Jovet

2024-05-02 23:48:22 +0000 UTC

I get wanting as much of the character stuff as possible but dude! 😅 There's kinda got to be some kind of external driving force that prompts the characters to all be in the same room and pouring out feelings that they'd probably internalize otherwise. The Marla apparition may not be the main draw of the episode but it certainly didn't bring the episode down. It did it's job. It got everyone in the room and talking. I too felt feelings while watching along. Glad you guys liked this one. In fact I'd say this is another great one that you guys have elevated even higher with the TA treatment

James Bottas

2024-05-02 23:47:46 +0000 UTC

I can list at least 20 examples of him having emotional responses just in episodes to date. If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck ..... it's a squirrel?

JGoss

2024-05-02 23:41:33 +0000 UTC

👍 Glad to see you had fun with Ron Moore :) Just to give you an idea what to look forward to: Based on "The Bonding", he was offered the opportunity to write a second script and that led to a staff position as a script editor (Melinda Snodgrass is leaving after this season, so he basically takes her job, which used to be DC Fontana back in the day and during season 1 TNG). He was basically TNG's DC Fontana. Two years later, he was promoted to co-producer, then producer for the series' final year (1994). he also worked on some scripts for DS9 and Voyager before leaving for BSG because he wanted to do some things that he just couldn't do on Trek (like snapping baby necks I guess :D ) So he'll be around for a while :) You have something to look forward to. As for Gene, he died in 1991, so he's still around but already pretty sick.

Andreas Schmitt

2024-05-02 23:40:41 +0000 UTC

Ernie Anderson used to do the Sunday night movie promos on ABC. I had a bunch of those recorded on tape. With those and these promos, his voice was a big part of my childhood. His son is director Paul Thomas Anderson

JGoss

2024-05-02 23:38:24 +0000 UTC

28:42 Y'all are addicted to the FEELS! 🙂

Jovet

2024-05-02 23:37:49 +0000 UTC

It sure helps when you hire on writers who actually love the franchise and the LORE.

JGoss

2024-05-02 23:36:35 +0000 UTC

What you say about the 'pause!' is so accurate and imo part of what was missing in s1 and s2. S3 is so much more willing to take its eyes off the story to see how these characters are handling it, it doesn't assume we all have the memory of goldfish

llama

2024-05-02 23:36:01 +0000 UTC

Thanks for reading my take! Gene was indeed still around, but with his health on the decline, he was taking less of an active role, with Berman and Piller taking a much larger active role. In one anecdote from Moore, he had a meeting with Gene, where Gene basically tore down his script. Moore left the meeting a bit devastated, but then Piller basically told him "don't worry about it, we'll deal with Gene, you keep writing what you're writing" and whichever script it was, it basically went through as written.

JGoss

2024-05-02 23:34:33 +0000 UTC

"It's almost like Ron Moore came in first day and went 'Ok, this is what we're doing!'".... yep.. pretty much haha. I get a feeling this won't be the last episode of his you'll love

Andreas Schmitt

2024-05-02 23:33:48 +0000 UTC

Ragequit! :D

Andreas Schmitt

2024-05-02 23:32:42 +0000 UTC

A great episode, especially for those of us who have lost a parent. The only mistake is not giving Jeremy a few moments to speak to the projection and say goodbye to his mother. Something I am sure many of us would like to have done in our own lives.

Mark Chrisco

2024-05-02 23:32:34 +0000 UTC

23:40 Yep! Spot on, Josh! "Where No One Has Gone Before"

Jovet

2024-05-02 23:31:54 +0000 UTC

I've never thought that this episode was worth anything. But since the last time I sat through it my dad has died and it hits me a lot different now I really enjoyed it

harrypothead42024

2024-05-02 23:29:52 +0000 UTC

Yeah, yeah, I was wrong. I DID honestly mix it up with a different episode. (Paramount Plus' descriptions are not very good or complete, or even accurate much of the time. The other half the time they spoil the episode's twist.) Even if I'd gotten it right, I probably would have underestimated your response, but I might have been a bit more enthused about it.

John

2024-05-02 23:26:49 +0000 UTC

The only real big flaw in this episode for me is it doesn't seem very believable that they would not have been able to detect those "mines" on the planet. A minor flaw was the Troi was anxious (if not horrified) long before Aster was killed.

Jovet

2024-05-02 23:26:20 +0000 UTC

12:00 Snarky response: How would Sean Connery on Jeopardy! say "THERAPY" ?

Jovet

2024-05-02 23:20:37 +0000 UTC

That guy is awesome!

Jovet

2024-05-02 23:17:26 +0000 UTC

#NoHeDoesNot

Jovet

2024-05-02 23:17:13 +0000 UTC

Next time on STARRR trekthegenerationcoughcoughsputter

Steven Johnson

2024-05-02 22:58:47 +0000 UTC

Yes.

Steven Johnson

2024-05-02 22:52:28 +0000 UTC

#DataHasEmotions

JGoss

2024-05-02 22:48:24 +0000 UTC

Inject all 42 minutes into my veins

Phil Ken Sebben

2024-05-02 22:45:52 +0000 UTC

Now we're cooking with gas

SinocTheHodgeheg

2024-05-02 22:44:28 +0000 UTC

42 minutes? Wow, I like it

JGoss

2024-05-02 22:39:16 +0000 UTC

FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S3E5 - The Bonding

Comments

I have to disagree. Grew up with TNG and this is definitely one of my favorite eps. I tear up every time. This, for me, is what Trek is about.

I believe the scene with worf and troi was in the computer core but I might be off

I did enjoy the episode more this time, I usually skip it in a rewatch but the first 20 mins were better than i thought

I'm probably one of the few who ever noticed....but one of the scenes where they showed the planets surface early into the episode was actually orbital images of Mars. I always thought it was a bit of a cheap rip off.

Gene was there until the end of season 4, although slowly diminishing.

Would you like to see more cats in TNG?

"No one is alone on the Enterprise. " chills...

My assumption was that it was the security office, probably in proximity to the main brig. This is where Worf would spend a fair amount of his on duty hours when not on the bridge.

To be fair we really don't get to meet the mother. We just get to meet a visual representation of her by an alien energy force that doesn't really understand humanity. I don't think we were ever supposed to like her.

I've always been skeptical of Troi's therapy being either outdated by today's standards or just not very well based in psychology. How would you rate her techniques based on what we know today vs what we knew in the 80's?

One of these discussions will end with the cat tearing down the greenscreen- I can feel it.

Rob Reiner was able to pull a great performance out of Wil Wheaton in STAND BY ME.

I was 20 when I saw this originally. Now that I'm a Marriage and Family therapist in real life, I'd never noticed how Troi actually does FAMILY therapy in this. Very interesting.

Idk if a holo mom would have worked “as well. Because while a mom recreation” could help provide closure. It wouldn’t offer him the chance to escape his grief and live in the past long term like an Alien entity can.

This episode is overshadowed by what is yet to come. It was like as if the writers heard that the audiences liked character episodes and said, "f@#$!ng hold my beer. Buckle up buttercup."

I think the scene with Worf and Troi was in the security station/office which is Worf's department. Could have even been in proximity to the brig. That is where Worf would likely spend his on duty hours when not on a bridge watch.

I think these commercials make the show look lame as hell

They have been Thursday and Sunday since starting the season, and will continue to be so unless said otherwise.

Not always as they mentioned...

There are always 2 a week.

On original viewing, I liked it. seeing it again and hearing your views I love it and as we all grow up can relate to it more in some shape or form. Thank you ! When will you increase your S3 reactions to more than 1 a week? ;) Can't wait for more in this EPIC season!

There are no "the" fans. Everybody has his own perspective.

I was thinking it might be better to do a tier ranking for every episode then rank the S tier ones

You defenitely have to do a Top 10 list at the end of this season. 5 would not be enough.

The real truth behind the Eugenics Wars.

Yup. I read the novelization of Star Trek VI before seeing it and I would actually say it gave me a deeper appreciation for the movie. There are details expounded on in the books that are less fully explored onscreen.

It was still standing from "Evolution," so it was available.

To be fair, its been years since I tried to watch this one properly. I enjoyed the first 20 mins but it goes off the rails once the alien aspect comes in for me. As for the kid / he is such an evil son of a bitch in Robocop 2 its difficult to get past that but I still don’t like the mother.

Hahaha. Sorry Josh. 😂😂

Also real quick because it came up, Wil Wheaton was born in 1972, so at the start of Season 3 airing in 1989 he was actually 17. From what I can tell, Wesley is always Wil's actual age.

the boy actor is the evil kid in Robocop 2 :) he is such a jerk in that movie, that its hard to feel sorry for him

Whaaaaat? That boy actor is Littlefoot??? .... never knew ...

I cannot begin to express how happy it makes me to see your appreciation of Gates McFadden. Again, no disrespect to Diana Muldaur, but Gates and Crusher just really click with TNG, and her more natural acting style helps add believability to the sci-fi theatrics.

Like so many random sets, I bet it was a redress of the battle bridge

Thanks Eric. I now look forward to ragging about Brannon Braga :P

He could be a space calico. Or if humanity can solve war, poverty, disease, maybe they could solve male calicos!

LOL at the endings! Yeah it's got all the character and emotional stuff there for sure. It's not one I rewatch that often but only because it's hard on the emotions. It's beautifully written and deserves more love.

I'll be the annoying nit-picker and point out that calico cats are mostly all female. Jeremy refers to Patches as "he". Calico males are extremely rare genetic anomalies.

The rage quit 🤣🤣🤣

Now you have a good grasp of why we all hold Season 3 on wards in such high regard.

While generally true, there can still be some exceptions. For example, Leonard Nimoy being the director of Star Trek III got a great big reaction from J&A that was great! That could've been a non-moment had they known in advance. Always protect the big reveals, even the ones in the credits 👍

Great discussion. You two are really hitting your stride! Great job! There is a Vulcan ritual that marks this level of attainment but you would not be able to pronounce it. 😉 🖖

Love good character episodes like this one.

Kolbe getting artsy

Honestly I appreciate splitting up episodes where you feel the need, and if you wanted to make that standard procedure I think it'd actually be a productive change.

Yeah you're right, that's an exaggeration. But I can feel RDM's fingerprints on the script, and having it be a holodeck rather than an alien would have been so much better.

That's a bit harsh. Also, Melinda Snodgrass had numerous uncredited rewrites and polishes of the script, since it was Moore's first. He credits her for making it a cohesive final product.

Yes, but then you have a guy like Michael Piller that oversees the overall output. Checks and balances are key

Agreed ;)

Thanks for the history. That makes so much sense. All the parts of the episode that I love are Moore's, and all the stuff that holds this back from being a great episode is due to Gene.

As for not knowing any writers' names besides DC Fontana and Melinda Snodgrass (and now Ron Moore), don't worry-- I'm sure as you progress thru TNG and then DS9 there'll be several names you come to recognize.

I asked this on Discord as a result of this episode--everyone is talking about Ronald D. Moore. The consensus seems to be that the mods are concerned only about on-screen stuff and acting appearances. Writers/directors seem to be ok.

Bingo! 👍

@James Goss There's a fine line there. "Loving the franchise" can quickly devolve into fan fiction. "Fan service" can be the same.

A new thought I've just had: why didn't the 'energy beings' just introduce themselves and say Hi?

Fun fact talking about Gates McFadden at the 6 minute mark, she originally thought her character was supposed to be comic relief because in her audition they were having her read lines from The Naked Now😂

By the end, Roddenberry was communicating through his “lawyer” Leonard Maizlish. There was a lot of suspicion that Maizlish was offering his own personal opinions.

This one hit more with me now than when it first aired for that very reason. It reminded me of the loss of my mom.

If you like character-driven episodes, then you're in for a good ride.

My guess, it will be a distant memory when they do their end of series retrospective.

Condolences for your Dad

Yeah, the camera lingered on her a little too early to make sense. I suppose she could have been sensing something with the energy beings on the surface, but then it was a surprise to her when one came to the ship, so eh?

True but by the time the guys get there they'll have forgotten I ever wrote this lol. So I tried to limit it to TNG and just mentioned he's around a long time past TNG, so they have a long Ron Moore Journey ahead

Well yeah, story by Maurice Hurley, screenplay by blah blah... I mean that episode was obviously a mishmash and everybody put their stuff in :D The original plot (if you can call it that) was Hurley yes. But Manning and Beimler worked on the screenplay together with Hurley.

Data totally has emotions. He just doesn't have all of them or the means to properly express them. Riker sets up his character in the pilot with "nice to meet you, Pinocchio."

Is future production history on the table, not considering spoilers? I just wanted to know what the limits were. That said, Moore's DS9 involvement was much larger than just working on some scripts. He wrote more for that than TNG, and was co-executive producer for the final three seasons.

Huh. I always thought Maurice Hurley wrote SoG? Was that a case of passing the ball?

I'm just glad I didn't give a longer, more detailed take. I've looked through the upcoming episodes (7-10) so I don't make a similar mistake. I didn't think top 10 all of Star Trek all time. (And it won't stay there, I don't think.)

Even though you mixed up the episode, your take still fit. It's considered an ok / meh episode. And we usually get it wrong when we think they'll dislike an episode, but they end up liking it anyway.

38:34 I like that, your thoughts are fresh right after watching it. If you're going to keep releasing the second weekly episode on Sunday, then best to discuss after each one! 👍

I can list at least 20 examples of him having emotional responses just in episodes to date. If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck ..... it's a squirrel?

Ernie Anderson used to do the Sunday night movie promos on ABC. I had a bunch of those recorded on tape. With those and these promos, his voice was a big part of my childhood. His son is director Paul Thomas Anderson

28:42 Y'all are addicted to the FEELS! 🙂

It sure helps when you hire on writers who actually love the franchise and the LORE.

What you say about the 'pause!' is so accurate and imo part of what was missing in s1 and s2. S3 is so much more willing to take its eyes off the story to see how these characters are handling it, it doesn't assume we all have the memory of goldfish

"It's almost like Ron Moore came in first day and went 'Ok, this is what we're doing!'".... yep.. pretty much haha. I get a feeling this won't be the last episode of his you'll love

Ragequit! :D

A great episode, especially for those of us who have lost a parent. The only mistake is not giving Jeremy a few moments to speak to the projection and say goodbye to his mother. Something I am sure many of us would like to have done in our own lives.

Next time on STARRR trekthegenerationcoughcoughsputter