FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S3E4 - Who Watches the Watchers
Added 2024-04-28 22:23:33 +0000 UTCBig shoutout to Oz Oz for giving us the solution to the buzzing audio issue we had. Once again showing why this community is awesome!
Comments
Though to be fair, the one religion Gene was the least fond of was the one that seemed not to be in favour of his penchant for banging anything that moved, so not surprising that he had animosity for that...
Jason C.
2024-05-02 08:11:34 +0000 UTCNevertheless it obviously was invented by Pulaski. And no, I am not a fan of hers.
Sam Langanke
2024-04-30 12:47:00 +0000 UTCPicard is just one person, which was entirely the point of this episode. It's totally okay if he thinks religion is dangerous. Some of us agree with that standpoint, some of us don't.
SageGreenGoat
2024-04-30 09:42:31 +0000 UTCTo be fair, we have no real evidence that Pulaski's memory wipe worked on Sarjenka, and given that it didn't work on a Mintakan (whose brain chemistry was at least somewhat more familiar to Federation medical science) it seems even less likely to work on a Dreman, a species they had only just made very limited contact with during that episode and thus knew far less about.
Patrick47
2024-04-30 05:41:50 +0000 UTCNote- There is only one truly, and they arent actually uncontacted. The people of Sentinelese Island off the coast of India. At one point, like a century or more ago, some of them were enslaved by British India and returned. There has been a collective memory of that and extreme hostility to the outside world, such that multiple attempts at contact (mostly illegal) have resulted in the people who attempted being killed. There are other groups, mostly in Papua New Guinae, a few deep in the Amazon and a few in Africa, who are listed as "uncontacted" but thats more so "extremely isolated" as opposed to "zero contact". They are aware of the outside world but not really connected to it and are left alone by legal mandate, often living in areas very remote and far away from civilization on national preserves.
David Kunard
2024-04-30 00:18:17 +0000 UTCwell, according to trek, many aliens have visited Earth and influenced culture, including the greek gods who in trek canon are aliens who derived strength from worship. There are actually many examples, but a lot of them are spoilers. It's actually surprising how many aliens visited and influenced Earth pre first contact. Lets not forgey about the Preservers who rescued native americans and apparently are the reason there are so many humanoids. The "vulcan offshoot" people would be an example of this, it wasn't that vulcans settled on Mintaka or that they evolved by chance. This was subtly referenced many times on TOS.
David Kunard
2024-04-30 00:13:28 +0000 UTCI think part of the point is there will be "leekos" out there, and ke was the one who saw something by his reckoning, totally inexplicable
David Kunard
2024-04-30 00:01:21 +0000 UTCI think its more that the Federation would cause a secular culture to adopt a religion.
David Kunard
2024-04-29 23:59:56 +0000 UTCDS9 takes a much more balanced approach to religion
David Kunard
2024-04-29 23:58:32 +0000 UTCThat’s what they said on Newbie Star Trek podcast!: “If you slot in Pulaski, you can imagine this not happening.” :D
Aramis Calcutt
2024-04-29 19:47:10 +0000 UTCMy thoughts about this episode's message on religion are best summed up by the episode of South Park where Cartman travels to the far future where 2 factions of Atheists are fighting a bloody war over what the name of their alliance should be. People will kill each other over the stupidest shit, religion ain't the first or last
Justin DiBari
2024-04-29 16:54:47 +0000 UTCOr maybe he was thinking, "If he hits my artificial heart, I'll have to see Pulaski again! The horror, the horror!"
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-04-29 16:08:46 +0000 UTCI think this episode may have been one of the main reasons my late mother considered Pulaski a more skilled physician than Crusher, despite the explanation about the Mintakans' different brain chemistry.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-04-29 16:07:48 +0000 UTCI was about to make exactly the same post as Jovet.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-04-29 16:06:37 +0000 UTC@Aramis Calcutt Come back, Pulaski, all is forgiven! ;-)
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-04-29 16:05:53 +0000 UTCBeware of BOB.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-04-29 16:03:52 +0000 UTCA poll once indicated that a surprisingly high percentage of atheists in the United States believed in God. The issue there was probably a poorly phrased poll question, but Gene Roddenberry was an atheist, and, although he never quite came out and said so, I get the impression from his work in general that he believed in God (albeit not in the same way a theist does).
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-04-29 16:03:15 +0000 UTC@James Goss They still would have seen it in the subtitles.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-04-29 16:00:45 +0000 UTCHmm. Maybe Picard was thinking "Oh, if he aims right he'll hit my artificial heart and I won't get hurt at all!"
Joe Concepts
2024-04-29 14:04:37 +0000 UTCI don't consider Star Trek in general to be a franchise with many B-plots. Some series are more likely to have them than others, but the one-story structure is usually how it goes.
Joe Concepts
2024-04-29 13:33:56 +0000 UTCI think Liko's overreaction would've worked better if they really established more that his wife's recent death really affected him. How here all he wants is to have her back. It would've been better to earlier show he was acting different, grieving, etc. And some misplaced religious beliefs can affect vulnerable people. If they had done that it would seem to have come out of nowhere.
Joe Concepts
2024-04-29 13:20:07 +0000 UTCSome might see this as a spoiler, but it doesn't really "spoil" anything and it's easy to miss later on. It's a good idea to point it out so they can be on the look-out.
Joe Concepts
2024-04-29 13:00:19 +0000 UTCWow, what a preview! The actual climax of the episode.
Joe Concepts
2024-04-29 12:58:58 +0000 UTCI don't think it's a spoiler to mention that the gift the Mintakans gave Picard is seen in his quarters from hereon - they had quite the impact on him. And it's always wonderfully understated just by the mere visual cue that the tapestry (?) becomes one of his most prized possessions.
Andy Frankham-Allen
2024-04-29 08:18:33 +0000 UTCDr. Crusher said she was "familiar with Dr. Pulaski's technique" of erasing a memory. And then it didn't work. Guess we have proof now who is the superior doctor. LOL
Sam Langanke
2024-04-29 08:16:03 +0000 UTCEthics teaser through me for a loop.
Philbot
2024-04-29 07:20:07 +0000 UTCThey were searching for Palmer.
Philbot
2024-04-29 07:18:43 +0000 UTCHe has angered the Picard!
Philbot
2024-04-29 07:17:35 +0000 UTCYea, I was wondering how much they could actually see? There like “They all went into that building, we have no idea what they’re doing in there..”
Philbot
2024-04-29 07:14:48 +0000 UTCIt’s funny they never thought twice about contacting the Ligonians, the Edo or Angel 1. They were somewhat more advanced, but didn’t seem to be warp capable.
Philbot
2024-04-29 07:13:10 +0000 UTCMost cartoons higher women to voice boys, Bob's Burgers hired men to voice the mom and older daughter (and some other recurring female characters) and it works surprisingly well.
Phillip Grischa
2024-04-29 05:25:11 +0000 UTCExcellent point!
Jovet
2024-04-29 05:23:58 +0000 UTCOne would think they could observe just fine from orbit.
Jovet
2024-04-29 05:23:23 +0000 UTCIt's all a matter of perspective.
Jovet
2024-04-29 05:22:20 +0000 UTCI think it gets looked over that maybe the reason Liko goes overboard in his immediate belief in “the Picard” is due to his desperation to get his dead wife back. Believing he witnessed resurrection on the enterprise would naturally make him frantic to have the same thing done for his wife.
Benjamin Azure
2024-04-29 04:46:50 +0000 UTCI think Picard was more upset at the disruption of the Mintakins cultural development than at religion. Also, while not exactly true I do consider superstition and religion slightly different (you could probably have a whole episode questioning that lol) but its the more superstitious aspects he really calls out.
irohtheteamaster
2024-04-29 04:08:07 +0000 UTCMy mouth dropped 🤣
JGoss
2024-04-29 03:54:04 +0000 UTCI always really liked this episode. But what got me was the Federation is so Prime Directive orientated and treats it as an absolute...but then puts themselves in a situation where an alien race could be aware of them by just a simple accident. This observation station should have had multiple redundancies to prevent happening what happened. I know it was a plot device but still very sloppy on the Federations part.
Monty Crawford
2024-04-29 03:52:39 +0000 UTCThe interesting point here is the point that Picard made at the beginning with Crusher. In order to obey the Prime Directive, Crusher should have let Ray Wise die. If the Federation had been serious about this at all, they would ban Crusher from any interstellar mission in which there was any chance of encountering pre-warp travel people. And it most probably would have ended her career in Starfleet altogether.
Aramis Calcutt
2024-04-29 03:45:07 +0000 UTCYeah, North Sentinel Island and that story was the first thing that popped into my head. Best to just leave them alone.
KatWithAttitude
2024-04-29 02:52:41 +0000 UTCWooooooow, I don’t know about anyone else, but I am NOOOOOOOT particularly comfortable with the trailer calling this race “savages”. Holy shit. 😆
Ragnarok
2024-04-29 02:43:24 +0000 UTC@Target Audience And you guys *almost* talked over Beverly name dropping Pulaski. There would have been hell to pay. ;)
JGoss
2024-04-29 02:37:20 +0000 UTCTo know where Gene was coming from, he was not anti-religion per se. He was however very anti ORGANIZED religion, which shows. Charlatans and those who use religion to persecute and control are common episode themes.
JGoss
2024-04-29 02:33:00 +0000 UTCI feel Picard's harsh portrayal of religion was on point. The Mintakins were probably at greater risk of devolving into religious chaos than a more scientifically developed culture for one thing. But also religion is not a laughing matter in our present day. It is the very motive behind Iran and Israel throwing down right now. Judaism is the belief that Israel is god's chosen people and they have a right to their land, and a lot of other people disagree. Lots of other examples through modern history as well.
Sherpa Jones
2024-04-29 01:57:11 +0000 UTCNorth Sentinel Island is the main place that springs to mind. A cargo ship grounded on a reef and, if memory serves, in one of their Mayday calls the crew requested firearms, because the indigenous tribe were building boats whilst armed with spears and bows, clearly preparing to board the ship.
James Knight
2024-04-29 01:37:29 +0000 UTC@Avaria, you are not the only one, but somehow it seems everyone is. I think the guys were cross-talking when she dropped that line
C_Drew
2024-04-29 01:19:29 +0000 UTCThis is a bit different, though. The people of North Sentinel Island don't want visitors, and the Indian government respects and enforces that. The Mintakans welcome outsiders.
Jovet
2024-04-29 00:49:33 +0000 UTCIf people saw us not paying attention because we were writing something down we would be eaten alive
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-04-29 00:47:59 +0000 UTCYou were right, it was painless!
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-04-29 00:47:14 +0000 UTCDon LaFontaine takes over from Ernie Anderson with Season 4.
Darin Wagner
2024-04-29 00:45:15 +0000 UTCThank you for the shoutout :) glad I could help. Love your channel guys.
Oz
2024-04-29 00:44:08 +0000 UTC@Avaria You're not the only one. Crusher warned it might not work because of the Lysome levels.
Jovet
2024-04-29 00:33:46 +0000 UTChttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3TmBdHUiy8
Jovet
2024-04-29 00:31:52 +0000 UTCThe movie Green Inferno is basically a modern made Cannibal Holocaust
Narnman
2024-04-29 00:26:55 +0000 UTCwhat are the main issues?
Narnman
2024-04-29 00:16:51 +0000 UTCDAMN!
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-04-29 00:08:12 +0000 UTCJosh and Alex- In reference to you guys wondering if its real or not, a missionary named John Chao was killed with arrows in 2018 by a group of indigenous isolated people, protected by a prime directive of sorts. There is a national geographic documentary that came out recently. Here's the link for the trailer: https://youtu.be/afg1V6WOM80?si=eeuK2TY6DviuBJD1
Andrea R
2024-04-28 23:58:34 +0000 UTCThe closing joke was funny😂
Just another Red Shirt
2024-04-28 23:49:20 +0000 UTCAgreed
Collin Freeman
2024-04-28 23:41:59 +0000 UTCShould’ve got Don LaFontaine
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-04-28 23:32:07 +0000 UTCThank you! So many of the comments seem to confuse belief in some higher power, with worshipping a higher power and following a set of “rules” you believe they would sanction. In reality it’s not so.
Glenn Johnson Barnes
2024-04-28 23:31:18 +0000 UTCPersonally, I'm pretty anti-religious, anti-spirituality, but I see Picard here not so much as being against those things as being FOR rationality. The Mintakans had discovered that reason is the best tool for understanding the world (as our ancestors did during the Enlightenment), paving the way for them to come to a scientific understanding of the seasons, the weather, animal life, etc. Now they're about to throw away that approach in favor of old beliefs like "the Overseer caused the floods", "this person died because the Overseer was displeased with them", "we must appease the Overseer so that he will provide us with a good harvest". Whatever your opinion of religious thought in principle, it's hard not to see THOSE things as steps backward into a dark age. There's a big difference between spirituality in the sense of "maybe there is something out there beyond our ability to understand it" and in the sense of "there is a physical God who can do magic and who demands to be worshipped in specific ways."
Steven Linden
2024-04-28 23:25:04 +0000 UTCOkay so I did a thimble-full's worth of research and found that the guy who did the promo voice overs for TNG seasons 1-3 was named Ernie Anderson.
Darin Wagner
2024-04-28 23:19:29 +0000 UTCNext time on Starrrr TREK thenextgeneration the universe EXPLODSE.
Steven Johnson
2024-04-28 23:18:36 +0000 UTCPlease tell me I'm not the only one who caught Crusher's line about how it probably wasn't going to work because Liko's brain chemistry was significantly different than Sarjenka's. 😉
Avaria
2024-04-28 23:17:00 +0000 UTCPicard was not angry about them being religious. He was upset that their interference would create a religion. Picard is not anti-religion. He is against the idea of forcing a culture to go through religious strife if they have already moved past religion.
ijp8834
2024-04-28 23:16:46 +0000 UTCIntent on resurrecting The Laura, Liko discovered The Bob!
Stephen Wright
2024-04-28 23:15:02 +0000 UTCNext time on an ALLLL NEW episode of STAAAAR TREK the next generation!
Dan Krantz
2024-04-28 23:14:06 +0000 UTCYou can't have everything. Sometimes, everything is normal in Engineering or Medical. Sometimes, Data correctly doesn't give a fuck.
Juan Tutrífor
2024-04-28 23:09:25 +0000 UTCI think, from the beginning, Star Trek's view of religion has been that there's nothing wrong with spirituality; there's nothing wrong with taking inspiration or deriving moral values from a shared collective mythos; there's nothing wrong with individual observance or traditional ritual. But when those belief systems and structures take precedence over rationality, when they inhibit the growth or development of a culture, or when they are used to justify cruelty or otherism, that's when you have a problem. Examples from TOS would be "The Apple" or "Who Mourns for Adonais." Or even "How Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth" from TAS. The existence of the god-like figures wasn't the problem, it was the insistence that the culture be held in place, or even revert to an earlier stage, to satisfy the god-like being that caused the conflict. Picard wasn't upset about religiosity in general, he was upset that the scientist's original recommendation for addressing the cultural contamination was to play into it; to affirm that he was a deity and issue directives to the Mintakans, thereby encouraging them to put faith ahead of empirical reasoning when the culture was already moving beyond that. Anyway Star Trek will generally do better at modeling religious integration and tolerance moving forward. (Sorry for the wall of text. Paragraphs aren't easy when typing from my phone.)
Avaria
2024-04-28 23:08:33 +0000 UTCWhy say lot words when "fuggin stupid version Vulcans" make sentences go.
Juan Tutrífor
2024-04-28 23:00:36 +0000 UTC"Apes" is a term of endearment, btw.
Darin Wagner
2024-04-28 22:58:36 +0000 UTCI hate this goddamn episode more than I like scoring.
Juan Tutrífor
2024-04-28 22:57:29 +0000 UTCWas it a jab at Pulaski that they called a technique that totally failed the Pulaski technique? :D
Andreas Schmitt
2024-04-28 22:51:52 +0000 UTCI think this speaks more to Pulaski's awesomeness. Pulaski was so good at her job that not even Crusher could duplicate her work.
Darin Wagner
2024-04-28 22:51:15 +0000 UTCOK, credit to the teaser, it shows so much of the episode's key elements, but misrepresents them in a way that the actual episode won't be ruined. Also, a suggestion. Do you guys take notes at all while watching? Like scribbling down a little note of a character or plot point to talk about later? Could be useful to the post episode discussion.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-04-28 22:48:58 +0000 UTChttps://images.app.goo.gl/zARYuwXF4DK1FyA9A
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-04-28 22:41:27 +0000 UTCOK so the memory erasing thing, specifically name-dropped as Pulaski's technique, didn't work this time. Maaaaaybe the crew will want to swing by Drema just to make sure Sarjenka wasn't burned at the stake or there's no Church of Data. Just a thought. They never actually verified it worked on her.
JGoss
2024-04-28 22:38:42 +0000 UTCThe thing that gets me about those teasers is the voice-over guy. He used to do those for ABC for shows like TJ Hooker, The Fall Guy and The Hardy Boys and I always thought the guy must have thought TNG was way more action-packed than it was.
Darin Wagner
2024-04-28 22:38:35 +0000 UTCThose teasers are whack and we who saw the show first run, saw them and got used to the fact that the teasers are the sensationalist version of the show.
Mike Rogers
2024-04-28 22:33:50 +0000 UTCAre you APES trying to say "men-TOK-in?" lol
Darin Wagner
2024-04-28 22:28:45 +0000 UTC
