PATRON TAKES - Star Trek TNG S2E16

This is what they call meeting the end game boss without levelling up ….. welcome to the borg

Warpiggaming

This is a pivotal episode that has lasting effects through out Star Trek from this episode on to the latest Trek.

Chris M

You guys are going to like this episode, very much.

Anthony Goodwin

Boo this man XD

Dan Halstead

*force lightning

Jovet

That was a very special joke... which was ruined by your asking that question.

Jovet

Except....

Jovet

New head-canon established

Dan Halstead

Still body horror, but more creepy than gross. Definitely prefer this to the bugs idea.

Dan Halstead

As many people have pointed out before this is one of the best episodes of the season, we get lots of lore about Guinan’s people, not to mention a little added background for Q with regards to his dealings with Guinan and of course we get the Borg. Yes this is the answer to who scooped up those out posts in the episode, the neutral zone. Originally they were going to write Q as over the top like how he was in hide and Q with apparently Q responding to when Riker snaps at him, he was supposed to jump up and yell stop or you will surely die in an over-the-top way but apparently John De Lancie and the Director figured that was too much and Had him just sit there and look at them and go “oh please” which improved the character. Also, this episode has a very ominous and creepy vibe to it. It culminates with the action, then unstoppable threat then a breath of fresh air at the very end very well done.

Leighton Cressman

Really….. how is that a spoiler??

Warpiggaming

No spoilers please

Sam Langanke

BORG….. sounds Swedish 🤖

Warpiggaming

One of the best episodes of season 2 as it’s a great callback to s1 the neutral zone… and seeing the enterprise getting chunks cut out of her by someone that is faster and stronger …. Wow

Warpiggaming

I think one of Picard's biggest strengths is his diplomatic experience. Encountering an overpowered species that doesn't respond to a lick of diplomacy, was a huge kick in the pants for him. He is more afraid and desperate in this episode than we've seen from him before I think. As he implies in the previous episode with his hand gesture, they are neck deep and over their heads once again. Lol

Andrea R

We are here. We've encountered....THE BORG. 🥰

Andrea R

Lies! Everyone knows there are no toilets in Star Trek 🤣🤣🤣

Andrea R

I agree with your predictions 100%

Andrea R

A great episode, the introduction to a staple of Star Trek going forward, wonderful deep dive into Guinan's past, and a unique look into the inner structure of the enterprise.

A Surprisingly Moist Fart

I think this is a great episode so they will probably hate it 😂😂 But seriously, this is one episode I can watch over and over.

Dale Williams

It's a pretty big stretch when one *acts* like she's pressing a button but doesn't actually do so. I've just always found that amusing.

Jovet

Well, we now have cell phones with options that can recognize your face, and even pause when you look away while a video is playing. Not a stretch that hers is set to come on when you sit in front of it.

Joe Concepts

@Numinous2019 But the power source for that beam could be elsewhere!

Jovet

That's definitely one of the many flaws of TOS. But Q is different, especially since he's recurring character. There's no full "Reset button" in this one, as Guinan and Picard talk about at the end.

Jovet

The whole reason he showed up and events played out is so he could give them a heads-up... a good kick in their complacency.

Jovet

Congrats you have met the most Villainous species to date there's a whole non canon explanation about how they came about i'd go into detail but i was reminded that there is a canon spoiler in the explanation. i think yall are gonna love this one quite a bit.

GamingHour2018

Q!

irohtheteamaster

An only ok episode that’s only good in retrospect, IMHO.

D

Almost horror. I love this episode

harrypothead42024

Well....here we are.

Greg Quinn

Wow, that's a perfect analogy. "Protect yourself, Captain, or they'll destroy you."

Juan Tutrífor

There are at least a few episodes each season where I eagerly await your reactions. This is definitely one of them.

Alan F

I feel like Guinan is like Cassandra from Greek mythology constantly telling the crew to get the hell out of there and them just ignoring her. I do love that the tease for this was at the end of the first season finally comes back. For everyone who says season 2 sucks they forget this episode (as well as several others) are in season 2.

Eric Bundy

That was an unwise decision. It results in Time Squared being the appendix of season 2. It's just left there with no full development or pay-off. Like an experiment by the writers that they couldn't resolve, but also couldn't discard.

Numinous2019

Kirk would never have shared Picard's complacency in the first place. So he wouldn't have provoked Q to catapult the Enterprise to an early Borg encounter. There is a big difference between Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek post-TOS. TOS characters don't think humanity has outgrown its flaws.

Numinous2019

Q's motivations can be contradictory in different scripts. This episode is probably a combination of Q being spiteful/chaotic in the short term, while also having a longer term agenda with Picard that is relatively more benign.

Numinous2019

The Enterprise firing twice at random sections of the Borg cube (while the Borg beam is clearly originating at a different section)......the special effects team probably felt this would have more visual impact......but it unfortunately makes the crew appear to be incapable of realising what to target. It's that bright green beam that's being projected from the upper left of the cube, guys.

Numinous2019

Starfleet basically had a peaceful golden age (peace with the Klingons, no contact with the Romulans) where they were the only known superpower for about 50 years or so. That all started crashing down with the re-emergence of the Romulans at the end of last year, and now the introduction of a new enemy that can easily outclass every other ST TNG race we've seen so far in terms of ruthlessness and technological advancement.

Timothy Hennon

"Q Who?” or “Maybe I won’t accept the upgrade.” The motherfuckin’ BORG, y’all. As in, of course, CY-Borg. “The Borg is the ultimate user,” Q tells us. While the origins of bringing the Borg to the screen is based on an insect hive, it’s a very real commentary of our increasing dependence on technology on a personal level. (Apple Watch, anyone? Google Glass?) And the Borg, who it’s hinted have already made inroads into Federation (and Romulan) territory, have been given an invitation.

Adam Reid

Predictions: -Happy to see Q again. -Intrigued by the interaction with Guinan and the mystery surrounding her. -Dead focused when the Borg show up. -Impressed by the Enterprise opening a can of whoop ass on the cube. -Terrified when it goes all Majin Buu and just heals up because they were just collecting data about the Enterprise's capabilities in a super gangster way. -Shocked by Picard swallowing his pride and begging Q for help. -Thinking Q had a cold but 100% valid point about people dying. -Realizing Q is really just helping in his own way. Question: What do you think the connection is between the colonies being wiped out in the S1 finale "The Neutral Zone" and this episode? If you're like me and need to know more about something interesting like the Borg and immediately hit the Google, don't. Let this one play out. You WILL run into spoilers in just about anything written about them. They are most terrifying because of the unknowns, let that cook for a little while.

Burrito Vampire

I agree

Collin Freeman

Sorry about the long response here but the answer is two fold. For the first I need to put some things into context. I was a huge TOS fan, to the point that I regularly ran Star Trek roleplaying game sessions years before TNG was even a concept. So, I was pretty deeply into THE LORE. One of the tropes I was never fond of was the semi-divine beings that showed up on a fairly regular basis. As result, when Encounter at Farpoint came out and Q showed up, it was not exactly the best selling point for me. The second reason is the “reset button” trope as it came to be called. One of the artifacts of the episodic nature of TOS was that it required everything to return to normal (as the show had started) by the end of the episode. This is a valid criticism of TOS that became know as the reset button. The problem with Q is that he can literally snap his fingers to trigger the reset button. So, when he shows up in an episode, I know the stakes are not as high and I find myself quickly losing engagement with the story. The one positive aspect of the character is that actor who portrays him. John de Lancie is Q. I still find myself skeptical that the character would have been as popular as he became with any other actor portraying him.

Nick Sauer

what’s up with those cat claws Guinean displays like she can throw lightening

Thicketdweller

He was old school Hollywood television and found her attempts at being more "collaborative" too frustrating to deal with, according to her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYsemEvV3-Y

Darin Wagner

‘Please place your seats in the full upright position, Stowe all gear, And fasten all seat belts Hold ON!! were going in.”

Thicketdweller

Were you already spoiled to the Borg before this episode? What did you know of them before and how do you view them now? How do you think the Federation should react to such an encounter?

valen

Care to expand on how he got her fired?

valen

Season one's "Conspiracy" was actually not well received at the time and it's gore got it banned in certain markets so the ideas that were going to be followed up in that story got repurposed and became the Borg.

Alexander McKechnie

The "apple core" that the Borg cube slices out of the Enterprise contains one of the only toilets ever seen in Star Trek. Sadly it's too small to really make out on screen.

Alexander McKechnie

Yeah, but it's actually a bit clever, as those on the bridge didn't know she could already see it. But, going into that room allows her to hear what they're all talking about on the bridge, too.

Jovet

The plot thickens for Guinans lore. 😉

Faitestealer

I think this is the point where TNG found it’s 4th gear. Enjoy it lads, it’s only going to get better from here

Jon1701

Q is absolutely right about Star fleet's arrogance. They create the most powerful ship they could which would respond to the most dangerous circumstances, and they kit it out like a luxury cruise ship and put families on it. Out of the 18 killed, how many were civilians that really shouldn't be there

SinocTheHodgeheg

Actually I’ve always thought the “bring it up on your viewscreen” was strange, since she was literally looking at it out her window. It’s like they filmed the scene as written, but also wanted the nice visual of Guinan in front of the Borg ship 🤷‍♂️

Glenn Johnson Barnes

Goof: When Guinan "has the other ship," she doesn't even actually touch the control panel in front of her.

Jovet

What, exactly, do you dislike about the Q?

Jovet

Are you quoting Dr. Lazarus ? :grin:

Jovet

Well, Q did put them in the confrontational situation in the first place.

Jovet

This is my among my favorite episodes of the season, it had a creepy vibe that then became very threatening and the crew could do nothing to stop the borg, they were completely outclassed.

Phillip Grischa

A darker story like this couldn't be used as a series pilot. The purpose of a pilot is to give a crew a challenge they can overcome, while laying the foundations for recurring elements. The Borg are an intensification of the challenges.

Numinous2019

The original idea for 'Time Squared' was that the space vortex would appear at the start of this episode, followed by Q. Q had created this phenomenon as another test & way to screw around with Picard & crew. So the events in 'Time Squared' would now make sense by leading directly into this episode.

Numinous2019

And now you know who scouped up the outposts along the neutral zone. (And then sodded off and left the Federation and the Romulans alone, I guess.) In that context the final line doesn't make much sense... After all, they already knew about the Federation prior to this encounter, right...?

Andy Frankham-Allen

This episode and Measure of a Man are easily the two best episodes of season 2. Edit: deleted my previous edit… so tired I thought I had written in the Measure of a Man thread lol. Thx to ppl for not moking me and my adhd brain 😏😂👍🏻

lee - ber nool

I predict you will love this episode. It has all the good ingredients, a new threatening adversary, Q, a good touch on Human nature and their curiosity, and last but not least a somewhat heavy ending with the ominous realization looming over the Enterprise's future.

DataDroid

My prediction for you two. You'll like it but not love it. Not because there was anything wrong with the episode, but it just isn't the type of story you're as drawn to. For my part, the silhouette of that towering Borg cube was forever cemented in my brain the first time I saw it.

Lindsey

The Borg get all the focus, but this is an excellent Q episode. After a season and a half, the crew think they've bested Q and earned their right to travel the galaxy. Then Q comes back to show them just how unprepared they are.

JGoss

I love the tension at the climax of the episode. You have the Borg ship in pursuit, the Enterprise's weapons doing nothing, while Q menacingly narrates how unstoppable the Borg are.

Jeff Cornell

Yeah. I would have hoped that paying patrons would be a little more mindful of implicit spoilers like that.

Jeff Cornell

James Bottas

Budget constraints kept the Borg from being depicted as insectoids as Maurice Hurley had originally intended, though the hive concept survived to become the overwhelming group mind known as the Collective.

Badger

In retrospect, though, this episode sucker punches the audience and the crew with the Borg. Like Guinan says, they don't do anything piecemeal.

Juan Tutrífor

I think it's mentioned in the episode that the Borg "carvings" of whole outposts resemble the activity investigated but unsolved from "Neutral Zone.

Juan Tutrífor

Wow....... I never considered that aspect of the storyline. Excellent observation about Sonja and the AI, JT.

Rhett Coates

On Kat's comment: Yes, I think we're all glad they aren't watching title names before watching the episodes......... for that one in particular, Kat. I agree.

Rhett Coates

The "clawed hands" from Guinan is almost the EXACT same reaction her character from "The Color Purple" (Whoopi Godberg's movie debut) has, in one particular scene, with that film's adversary character played by Danny Glover. It's truly eerie seeing that reaction in the movie when also knowing it happens, with Guinan, in 10-Forward, regarding Q.

Rhett Coates

Characters, conflict, consequences, conundrums. This episode has it all. Revealing a little back story, finally seeing the Enterprise D in a real throw down, and it all being run by that sexy, sexy Q.

Nerd's Gold

This is easily the most important episode of Season Two. Pay attention, lads. This episode was also written by Maurice Hurley... the guy who got Gates McFadden fired.

Darin Wagner

For me this is in my top 10 of the entire franchise. So many memorable lines and moments. Whoopi Goldberg and John De Lancie with Patrick Stewart are superb together in whatever combination. You get a sense that all involved gave 100% to this episode.

Paul Rymer

This episode was released on rental VHS in the UK shortly after the US broadcast. Unlike with season 1, Paramount just picked 4 strong episodes for VHS release. The first tape was “A Matter Of Honor” and “The Measure Of A Man” and the second was this episode (with the Borg on the cover) and another superb episode you’ll see in a week or two. This meant my impression of season 2 was rather warped as I hoped all episodes were as good as on those two tapes!

Paul Rymer

I remember you guys had heard of Q before getting into TNG, but what, if anything, had you heard of the Borg?

Lady Beyond The Wall

IMO, ending the action with a triumphant Q lecturing Picard is the most daring thing Star Trek has done since killing Spock. Question for you guys: Is TNG a better show if this story gets used for the pilot?

bab

You guys are gonna love this one.

Just another Red Shirt

The seeds of the Borg were planted last season. The Borg were meant to be a hive of insects (hence Guinan’s line “they swarmed through our system”), and the scorpion like parasites from ‘Conspiracy’ were supposed to be related to them. But, portraying insectoids realistically would have been too expensive, so they became cyborgs instead. That being said, the Borg were teased in season 1’s The Neutral Zone, when Federation and Romulan colonies were scooped up by the unknown force.

tyranusfan

Originally, this and Time Squared were going to be a two-parter, with the Picard from the future also being Q’s doing, but the stories were separated, leaving the vortex of the earlier episode a mystery.

tyranusfan

This is one of the most consequential episodes for the future of the Star Trek universe, and also an excellent adventure. Q really does it to them this time ...

NivekTheIncorrigible

Prediction: your discussion video will be 90 minutes long.

Anthony Bernacchi

So, about that Romulan threat... Honestly, I have always disliked the Q but this episode was one of the best uses of the character.

Nick Sauer

I hope you guys pick up on how this is what was hinted at in The Neutral Zone. Also, since you recently watched Total Recall, you might recognize that Ensign Sonya Gomez was the 3 breasted lady, played by Lacia Naff (probably botched the spelling of her name). I prefer her as Sonya over the three-fer.

Mike Rogers

You probably won't be Borg to death.

Chtphr Rrr

The turning point of the series,forget the romulans the borg are on another level

Mark

Whoopi Goldberg and John de Lancie have spent DECADES having to hear fan theories about their little face off. Supposedly the hand gestures were just “a little business they improvised on set”, but the fans let their fan theories run wild.

Stuart Arbury

Let’s just say there’s gonna be more comments here than measure of a man

Stuart Arbury

If season 3 is considered the turning point of the series, this has got to be the light at the end of the tunnel. Whomever came up with the idea of the Borg, I hope got a raise.

startrekiborg

I already changed it ;)

JD Nevesytrof

Could there be as many comments here as for The Measure of a Man? You want some fundamental/essential lore of the show, you’ll get it here. First “proper” use of Q here too, I feel. Enjoy!

Andrew F.

John De Lancie and Whoopi added the entire conflict element. It wasn’t in the script. Even they didn’t know what they were implying when they held their clawed hands up at each other but they thought the fans would like it.

Smear Campaign

oooh, hoo hoo... (shivers) The Borg.

Glenner7

This episode will change TNG forever!

Troy Massey

This episode was probably TNG's biggest contribution to the cultural zeitgeist around Star Trek to this point. I really like resolution wasn't the crew winning on their own merit. but Picard humbling himself to Q. This ranks up there in my favourite Q episode and he was a legitimate threat and less trickster.

EnigmaticPenguin

Don't see how that's a spoiler but I'll remove it.

Ca$hWednesday

If either of you claim you’ve never heard of the Borg before, I won’t believe another word you say!

Smear Campaign

Yeah. And I can think of one more in particular.

KatWithAttitude

Q, and Guinan, and The Borg! Quintessential Trek!

Glenn Johnson Barnes

An instance where it will be GREAT that they're avoiding the episode titles!!

Jovet

From the looks of it, that would be some magical wizard battle that would cost the VFX department too much

Evan Guthrie

The Borg is not AI.

Jovet

You two are really going to dig this episode. It's pretty scary! And excellently written. The Borg are one of the most interesting, compelling adversaries in televised fiction!

Jovet

Star Trek, usually about the bright potential of technology, but now looking at the dark side of it. And picking up on those threads from the S1 finale and it's missing outposts.

Nolan

It’s Q! It’s the Borg! What the hell is Whoopi?

James H

Too soon.

Jovet

Q wins.

Jovet

Question: So, do you guys recognize Ensign Sonya Gomez...?

Jovet

The writers know exactly who John DeLancie is, and John DeLancie knows exactly who Q is!

Evan Guthrie

Besides Measure of Man, this is probably the most anticipated episode of S2 for you guys to react to for most of us. It's a great introduction to Trek's most famous villains, and a good Q episode to boot. Also, I don't think this is a spoiler cuz it's never brought up again, but the mysterious aliens that destroyed the Federation and Romulan colonies at the end of S1 was meant to be the Borg, but due to behind the scenes issues (scheduling/budget?) Their introduction had to be delayed until later in S2. At least that's my understanding.

Michael Mannisto

I predict you will love this episode and that you may have already heard of the Borg just from pop culture. You might recognize Ensign Sonya Gomez from Total Recall. She had an extra prosthetic in that movie that Gene probably wanted to use in TNG for Troi.

Brian Moore

The anti-Federation, yes, but I don't think they introduced Borg as********on in this episode, so be careful with spoilers.

Evan Guthrie

After seeing how the Borg act--excavating civilizations from worlds, slicing up ships for study, barely acknowledging individual humans they come in contact with, allowing Enterprise crew to walk around their cube-ship freely--what do you think their motivations are? What is the primary goal of the Borg?

Evan Guthrie

I can literally hear the "If we all die here...now...there will be no one to gloat" line coming from 60's Shatner. {quietly) "You....wanted to frighten us." Pause. "We're frightened." But he would have been visibly angrier when he told Q the lesson could have learned without the loss of life.

StonyD

I'd pay real money to see Guinen and Q throw down

Neill Shaughness

Resistance is futile

Elway Simpson

Kirk would absolutely resort to Q. Winning means getting everyone back alive.

Juan Tutrífor

Oh easy, the Borg are computers so he would have talked them into exploding.

JD Nevesytrof

To save Worf from himself ... having his atoms scattered into oblivion by Q.

Collin Freeman

Picard's line about "kicking us in our complacency" is clearly intended as a bit of meta dialogue aimed at the audience. A mission statement of sorts for the show itself as it continues to explore what it can be throughout Season 2. We're seeing some new shades of Q here as well. Originally envisioned as a wrote "trouble maker" "devilish" villain, he is evermore showing whispers of depth, and yet, one of his most sinister performances, sitting in the briefing room chair he says "Oh, please..." John de Lancie kills every line he's given. Thoughts on Guinan this episode?

Steven Johnson

Well here we are, The Borg. Q’s test of humanity continues, putting the Federation up against a mirror image of themselves. While one can take away the lesson that Q is trying to teach in this episode is having Picard ask for assistance when he runs into something the Enterprise can’t win against. The final moments between Picard Guinan where they both note “they will be coming” gives the audience the message The Borg will return, and when they do Q wont be able to snap them away.

Gregory

Continuity!!! Not only from the pilot and Hide and Q but also finally solving the mystery to those crater-filled outposts in The Neutral Zone episode. As originally written, the Borg were supposed to show up in that episode but with a writer's strike, lack of time and budget, it remained a mystery ... until this episode. P.S. this is my 2nd favorite episode of season 2, right behind Measure of a Man.

Collin Freeman

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not SAFE out here!" Q gets all the best lines in this episode.

StonyD

Good question!

Collin Freeman

Jess Thomas

I love how after every mini-battle with the borg ship, in the midst of crazy high stakes brinksmanship… they have a quiet conference in the observation lounge.

Jess Thomas

"We are the new baddies. You will fear and admire us and acknowledge our iconic status. Resistance is futile."

snthd

Here's a question for you guys given your Trek connections: were all things equal for the situation, do you think Kirk would have had the same humility Picard had here asking Q for help at the end of the episode, especially with Kirk not believing in a no win scenario?

CM Waters

So glad you finally met the borg. Get ready for a wild ride boys.

Jason Biggs

9th highest ranked episode on IMDB. Trivia: Won a couple of Emmys for sound mixing and editing. Prediction: You’ll love the nods to continuity and the Q-Guinan backstory. 5-word review: Slight improvement on the Ferengi.

John M.

When I met John De Lancie, shortly after this episode was made, he told the audience it was his and Whoopi Goldberg's idea to make Q and Guinan old foes. With one of them saying something like "The fans will love it." De Lancie was still in a bit of shocked and touched how much love this part got him from fans. An actor who was used to going to show after show for a few years being a guest star without much notoriety. And it seemed that Q was just another one of those.

Mike Rogers

We've made it to the other Season 2 big episode! It's a Q episode of course, and he's here again to test our crew. We then get our introduction to the Borg. In a way, The Borg are the anti-Federation in what they are and what they represent thematically. Interested to hear Josh and Alex's thoughts on TNGs second attempt at a new alien enemy and how they compare to the Ferengi.

Ca$hWednesday

Right? Guinan was cool to begin with, then suddenly she has old beef with Q 🤣

Juan Tutrífor

Do you think Q facilitated their first encounter just so they'd ask for his help/feel needed or did he arrange this because he'd developed an attachment to them and wanted to give them a chance to be ready for a future encounter?

THE LORE!!!

The Borg are the perfect enemy for Picard. Up until now he’s usually defeated most his opponents through either negotiation or the Enterprise’s superior technology. Neither approach works on the Borg, so Picard has to change his approach.

Matthew McKinnon-Gray

This is Star Trek's version of that Fermi Paradox meme: what if the first intelligent signal we receive back from the cosmos says, "Quiet. They'll hear you." Something I noticed on a recent rewatch: Ensign Gomez starts the episode being very polite to an AI, and the rest of the episode is about AI being very impolite back.

Juan Tutrífor

Even though this is my first run through TNG, I’ve always knew about The Borg. I just didn’t know that they get introduced this early one. Fantastic episode!

TalynStarburst

What did you think about the Borg as a threat, and were you surprised that Picard asked Q for help?

Andreas Schmitt

Assuming you had heard of the Borg before, were you surprised that they showed up so early in the series?

Daniel Calcagno

He's baaaack...... So now you finally know what destroyed those outposts along the Neutral Zone in Season 1. The Borg are much more menacing than the Ferengi ever thought about being. Plenty of chilling moments in this one, but I always shudder at the Borgified baby. I have this one ranked as “Best of the Best”, number 4 of 5 in that category this season.

KatWithAttitude

Absolutely loved that they took their two most fascinating recurring characters, Q and Guinan, and gave them a history and instant animosity. For a character drama it makes for an even richer set of circumstances and situations.

JD Nevesytrof