Buffy - Passion S2 E17 - Full Reaction
Added 2023-06-12 22:00:02 +0000 UTCGoing forward, I think we all need to watch Buffy with the very real knowledge that our heart WILL be broken. There's no getting around that. We must watch it at our own risk!
This episode... yikes.
YT Edit: https://youtu.be/efUpWSRWBXA
SPOILERS for this episode below!!!!
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I guess I thought I was being clever, by not believing what I saw. I even watched the scene with Angel and Ms Calendar twice, wanting to confirm. I saw it again, but still, I'm not silly. I've been tricked before. She's just knocked out. This show won't make me cry for no reason. So I held my ground and refused to believe. It wasn't until further along, in that scene at Giles' home, that I knew it really did happen. Giles breaking down.... The girls breaking down... Giles clinging onto Buffy in utter despair and grief...
I am sorry to say this, and I feel bad, but the direction that Angel/us is going makes me not like him. I used to like him a lot, when he and Buffy were together and normal and happy. When he lost his soul, it was revealed that the history in those dusty old books that Giles adores was true. Angelus is pure evil. Even if we can restore his soul, I don't even know if I want him back. I don't know if Buffy would TAKE him back. I just don't see a happy outcome for them, ever. It saddens me as I truly liked him, but I can't say I like him any more. Which really shows what a great role his character is to make me dislike him in such a passionate way...
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Comments
Juliette: I hope everything is okay in your world. I'm just in a very good mood today... Oof. That aged well, didn't it?
Raven Dark
2024-07-24 02:24:57 +0000 UTCMe too (feeling called out). Thinking inside from the moment you started watching Buffy that this episode would break you (as it broke us). And yet, knowing it would be painful for you. I still wanting to see you react. You made me see this episode from a different perspective, and I thank you for that. Shows like Firefly and Buffy allow us to feel, which binds our humanity together. I am sorry...and your reaction was wonderfully human.
Eric H
2023-06-20 09:11:23 +0000 UTCI don't think I can handle too much more đđ She's so YOUNG. She has the weight of the world on her shoulders, the FATE of the world as well. I don't know how she handles it... this episode was honestly SO hard to watch đ
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-18 06:50:21 +0000 UTCI am now thanks :)
Michael Short
2023-06-18 05:43:06 +0000 UTCOh no!! Are you okay??
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-18 05:34:01 +0000 UTCFinally I get to watch this lol. Been in hospital for a week it was torture not being able to keep up with you on buffy
Michael Short
2023-06-18 00:48:57 +0000 UTCI'm right here crying with you! This episode breaks us all. The scene I rewatched (over and over) upon my first viewing of "Passion" was Giles and Buffy outside the factory.. Because not a minute before it, Buffy is throwing around a vampire, a murderer, and drawing blood; she's dragging a hysterical grown man from a burning building with ease.. And then she starts to cry, and reality hits with an immediacy that destroys me. This is a seventeen-year-old girl and her beloved father figure. Her first love, first everything, has murdered her school teacher: one of her protectors. And then she's holding on for dear life to a sobbing Giles - begging him not to be reckless, as he's in his right to be, because the thought of navigating this alone terrifies her. I bawled the first time. And on this 50th time, it was much the same. I love the choice not to have the other Scooby's here for this one - it's just Buffy and Giles, and they need one another. It feels so much like grief that it's borderline obscene. Welcome to Buffy, Juliette. We're just gettin' started.
Tommy Galloway
2023-06-17 23:31:48 +0000 UTCđđđđ
Eric Hoover
2023-06-16 02:25:21 +0000 UTCThat is true, but I don't think he'd be quite in the mood for a while đ¤Ŗ I might give him some time haha
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-14 06:14:21 +0000 UTCOh! The subtitles are auto generated by YouTube! I wish I had the time to do them myself, but I also work as a transcriptionist and it would take me a few hours to do them myself per episode and I just don't have the time đĨ I've seen some shocking things auto generated đŗ
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-14 06:13:41 +0000 UTCAh Passion. If Surprise/Innocense didn't clue viewers into the fact that this show is more than a campy fantasy, this one certainly does. As awful as Angel is right now, I like him for the story. He's much more interesting to me than souled Angel ever was. Completely off topic, but I wanted to ask: do you add subtitles to these videos yourself, or are they auto-generated? They're very good, and very much appreciated. YouTube's auto-generated subtitles are awful but these are quite good.
zerofk
2023-06-13 20:17:11 +0000 UTCThere's always a bright glimmer to see in such terrible situations. You can ship yourself with Giles again. (Sorry.)
Patrick Armbruster
2023-06-13 13:27:27 +0000 UTCAngelus is the original Buffy reactor.
Texas
2023-06-13 10:52:24 +0000 UTCAhh well wont say anything on angel. And can't guarantee it will change you're mind but highly recommend. Also love trek. but was a fun discussion. Either way its bedtime for me have a good night!
Kyle Junge
2023-06-13 05:53:20 +0000 UTCYes, in "The Wrath of Khan", Spock sacrificed himself, quoting that line, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one." However, remember "The Search for Spock", where the crew risked everything to bring Spock back. When Spock asked Kirk about it, he said that sometimes the needs of the few--or the one--outweigh the needs of the many. I, uh, actually have no idea how it's relevant, but I haven't seen the Angel show so can't say anything on it, and I'm a Trekkie, so here we are. :D
Dee Gee
2023-06-13 05:43:42 +0000 UTCAhh have you not watched angel? Well what i will say is he makes the case for his existence. I mean I get you can't put a price on human lives. But when the risk is a few dozen human lives but his existence could mean the difference of every human life you get into the spock territory of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. And in this instance angel learns he may be the only thing standing between the extinction of the human race. Granted he may also be the thing that ends the human race but at this point we don't know which is which. Damn do I wish they hadn't canceled angel!!
Kyle Junge
2023-06-13 05:01:14 +0000 UTCJules: I think they *shouldn't* want him back, but I'm willing to bet right now that the writers contrive a way to get him back with the gang, as if nothing ever happened. I mean, you're right, considering what he did, ostracization should be the absolute *least* of it. I just don't think it'll happen. Kyle: "As long as it's Angel at the wheel". That's my exact point. If it were only Angel, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But he becomes Angelus, and I would argue that not even a millennia of torture is sufficient when it comes to human lives. Human lives can't have a price tag; if we start assigning a price, that's another slippery slope. Soon we'll be quibbling over the exact line of how much equals a life. I believe human lives should matter more than that. If he has friends who promised to dust him when he becomes Angelus--where are they? He's already killed and tortured people, and none of those several people have actually driven a stake through his heart. It doesn't count as a precaution if it doesn't actually come up. As the the torture at the end of the season, well, we haven't gotten there yet. I really don't know much about the series; I know Angel gets his own series, but that's all I really know. That's why I engage in such debates; I legitimately have next to no information than anyone watching for the first time. :)
Dee Gee
2023-06-13 04:10:46 +0000 UTCWhile his torture is not shown its absolutely referenced. Buffy sends him to hell at the end of season 2 and when he comes back early on season 3 giles acknowledges how time passes differently in different dimensions and that angel would have spent hundreds of years being tortured. I would argue his "doing good" is a guarantee as its in angels nature to do good. I think as long as its angel at the wheel and he feels guilt he is guaranteed to do good. My evidence... basically the entire angel series. Now as for the thought that someone might force him into turning yeah he should be aware of that and do his utmost to prevent that but does he not? Should the threat that someone might show up and force me to do bad things against my will be a reason I should consider unaliving myself?. I guess the fact that in angels case that is a pretty reasonable possibility should be considered but the only real solution I can see would be ending himself and I'm not sure I think thats reasonable. Add to that he's recruited several people who have agreed to end him should that scenario come to pass has he not taken reasonable precautions?
Kyle Junge
2023-06-13 03:31:23 +0000 UTCIt's just brilliant. Wonderful! You hear the title "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and think that it's just some cheesy show to watch to pass the time and then you watch it and it very quickly becomes EVERYTHING. I really must stop with my very wrong preconceived notions of what a show is about đ¤Ŗ
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-13 03:28:26 +0000 UTCHAHA!!! I didn't even THINK about that meaning đ¤Ŗ And I said it with such hatred, too!!
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-13 03:25:30 +0000 UTCYep, and here I was, fool me, thinking Angel would be laying on the bed in some sick twist and Jenny was just... somewhere else? Not until I saw her body did it sink in that it was REAL. I watched it back a second time in the YT edit and still didn't believe it. Well... there you go đđ
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-13 03:25:03 +0000 UTCThat is great info to know about the phone line! Willow breaking down on the phone broke ME đ You go into these shows with some manner of an idea of protection around the cast. Nothing will happen to them. They are the main characters. And for one to be killed off like that, with no warning and just a simple action from the villain without a second thought... Yikes...
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-13 03:23:54 +0000 UTCIt was the worst đđđ
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-13 03:21:53 +0000 UTCIt was actually so well done. I am so glad I haven't been spoiled for anything as all these things that have happened, I had no idea what we were in for. Watch Buffy, they said. It would be fun, they said. I'm going to need a new tissue box and some bandages for my heart đ đ Seeing Giles breaking down? PAIN.
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-13 03:19:12 +0000 UTCIt is indeed beautifully done. It feels like actual pain that we go through as the viewer and there's so many mixed emotions. I don't know if I'm taking it too seriously, but I'm so hurt by what Angelus has done đđ We LOVED him, just like Buffy did! He's not just hurt Buffy, Giles and her friends, he's hurt us, too...
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-13 03:17:37 +0000 UTCI feel so bad because I loved Angel and Buffy together and he's like THIS now... It really has me feeling so conflicted because I really don't like Angel(us) at all anymore đđ I definitely need those hugs đĢ
Juliette Gaming
2023-06-13 03:15:09 +0000 UTCHis being tortured in Hell wasn't shown, and I don't recall it even being referenced. I don't think it can be used in his defense, then. As for his "doing good", that isn't a guarantee. What *is* a guarantee is Angelus being released sooner or later and again taking lives. I mean, I can agree that each time it's against his will, which means he can't easily be accused of malice of forethought, but it does mean that he can be accused of malice of thoughtlessness, or what's legally termed criminal recklessness. He didn't intend for the bloodshed, but through inaction allowed it to happen, knowing it would happen. If he could demonstrate that he felt legitimate guilt, that's the kind of thing that might matter at sentencing, and I have to admit even his "doing good" might come up there, too, but not to the initial matter.
Dee Gee
2023-06-13 03:10:21 +0000 UTCHmm, an interesting argument and I don't completely disagree. Gonna say first :SPOILERS FROM HER. IF YOU HAVNT WATCHED MOST OF THE SERIES STOP READING THIS!!. I guess perhaps a counter argument i can put forward is can angel do more good than Angelus can do bad. I mean the means in which Angelus can come out are pretty specific and outside of the first time where he was unaware of the specifics of the curse every time he's turned after its because something was done to him against his will. My personal theory is that being aware of the curse it would be pretty much impossible for him to turn since the mere knowledge that he could turn due to true happiness would prevent him from ever achieving true happiness. At that point knowing he can never really be happy and knowing he can truly help the world as angel wouldn't the greater response be to try to do as much good as possible rather than end himself based on the possibility some might force him into being Angelus? Also now that I'm past a spoiler warning and Juliette and anyone else who hasn't watched should have stopped reading my now. As far as punishments for his actions go, while it isn't really shown in the series he has spent at least 300 years being tortured in a hell dimension. Thats most of his existence to this point spent being tortured. If thats not punishment I don't know what is.
Kyle Junge
2023-06-13 02:51:54 +0000 UTCI don't think he really does feel guilt. I mean, he knows the danger exists and does nothing to prevent it. Twice so far he's had his soul taken away with an ease that's simply frightening. Both times he's left rivers of blood in his wake. Even when he has his soul, he's a ticking time bomb--and he knows it. Even if we treat Angelus as a separate entity from Angel for legal purposes, Angel knows that Angelus is a threat and doesn't do anything to stop it, nor anything to take responsibility for it. Every kill is one Angel's hands because he knew it would happen but didn't do anything to stop it. That makes him complicit, and, arguably, falls under aiding and abetting. Myself, I'd even make the argument he's an accessory. Angelus might be committing the actual crime, but Angel is allowing him and tacitly encouraging him.
Dee Gee
2023-06-13 02:40:47 +0000 UTCI guess thats the thing, considering he had literally no culpability in what his body did I don't really know what an appropriate punishment should be. To further confuse things. If my twin brother were to commit a crime should I also be punished? Arguably since we are genetically identical we actually share more in common than a demon that controls a humans body and that human. And while hypothetically when angel was a human he may not have been the greatest person ever he probably wasn't a homicidal maniac. I guess wat im saying is i think the guilt is punishment enough if not too much considering his lack of personal culpability. That and other things that happen a bit later. It is a fascinating topic though đ¤ ill give you that!
Kyle Junge
2023-06-13 02:09:54 +0000 UTCI know it isn't real. We were debating as if it were, since that's fun. :) I don't think there's a perfect analogue for demonic possession, though I stand by the ones I mentioned. The mind might not have been in full control of the body, but that doesn't give a free pass. Let's ignore that part, though. Let's go with Angel, himself. When he does have his soul, he throws himself a pity party for what he'd done without it--but he doesn't face justice. He doesn't turn him into to a council of witches, a cove of slayers, or whatever. He takes *no* steps to not only address what he did, but to take responsibility.
Dee Gee
2023-06-13 01:58:41 +0000 UTCI mean yeah but I guess I just don't necessarily think the American legal system using a drug analogy is quite the right way to think about literal supernatural demonic possession. Obviously that's not a thing in the real world and the use of drugs or other means of manipulating ones mind are usually a choice in the real world (though obviously factors like mental condition coercion and addiction play a factor and should be treated with empathy to a point) But in this world a thing was done to angle that he had no say in and he was literally a different being after that was done to him the person he was before had literally no possible way of intervening with the actions of this new entity and when his initial being was restored to the body he stopped that demonic entity from continuing to carry out the actions it was doing previously. I know the show generally goes for analogies and I think the rules of vampire possession muddy that a bit cause there are no real world analogies for something in a verybliteral sense taking over you're body while you cease to be involved in any decisions about what you're body does. But in the context of the show I don't think it makes sense to punish one entity for the actions of a different entity.
Kyle Junge
2023-06-13 01:44:00 +0000 UTCOne thing I love about Buffy, which makes it a masterpiece, is there are consequences. There are no resets. Characters change. In fact, they change so much that by the end they are almost different characters, but they still feel the same. It is so gradual and well earned. Its like the 16 year old me is not the same as the 21 year old me, but it is still me. Of course that wouldn't work without phenomenal writing, directing, and acting of well loved characters. For all the camp and cheese and humor, it earns its' dramatic punches. As does Dr. Who...
Leenis
2023-06-13 00:59:19 +0000 UTClol. I actually looked sheepishly sideways with guilt in my heart when she said that. :P
Leenis
2023-06-13 00:55:01 +0000 UTCIn the American legal system, every form of coercion, force, use of mind-altering drugs, or in any other way making someone else kill anther person, the one who pulled the trigger is still guilty, even if they had someone coercing/forcing/feeding them drugs/whatever. That's part of the point of the justice system to begin with, that victims don't go without *everyone* involved in their victimization being tried. Angel doesn't get a pass because he was under the influence of something else; demonic or elsewise, the law doesn't recognize that as a legal defense. That can be a factor to take into account for sentencing, but it doesn't give him a pass. It can't. That's the start of a slippery slope.
Dee Gee
2023-06-13 00:50:09 +0000 UTCWell said.
Leenis
2023-06-13 00:48:47 +0000 UTCI get what you're saying, and see how you could get there but I kind of both agree and disagree. The reason why I disagree would be a spoiler though so won't say more for now. Though despite that I do understand the argument of is there really a point for punishing Angel for the things he did back when he didn't have a soul. I guess by the shows logic the guilt is the punishment but does it serve any purpose to punish a soul for what the demon controlling their body did when the soul was absent? I don't think it's quite that black and white is all I'm saying.
Kyle Junge
2023-06-13 00:33:28 +0000 UTC"He's feeding off her reaction, He loves it" I think I speak for all us buffy reaction enjoyers when I say boy do I feel called out right now!
Kyle Junge
2023-06-13 00:05:57 +0000 UTCDon't feel bad Juliette, every reactor I've watched has been in denial over Jenny's death. It was a real shock for most of us. I stand with Xander at this point and want Angel dead. He's done to much damage, is to psychotic, and I'd never trust him even if you managed to restore his soul again. I can't take Buffy crying, it rips my heart out every time. The imagination and brutality of arranging Jenny's body for Gile's to find like that is so fiendish it defies comprehension. This was hard on me so I really felt for you during it but this kind of powerful storytelling is why we love the show.
Stephen Knueppel
2023-06-12 23:48:57 +0000 UTCOh jules I just wanna hug you! Bless your little heart! âĄ
x_Rhi_x
2023-06-12 23:42:04 +0000 UTCWe've all been in your siuation of non-belief and I think that this episode was the one where the show 'grew up'! Up until now the main cast were always put into dangerous situations but were never in real peril. The tragic death of Jenny Calendar makes you double guess all previous assumptions. For the scene where Giles calls Buffy & Willow, the crew set up a phone line so that Anthony Stewart Head could interact with SMG and Alyson Hannigan which IMO makes this scene extra harrowing.
Gary Marshall
2023-06-12 23:25:21 +0000 UTCI'll copy a little of what I said on the YouTube video here: My problem is this won't really mean anything for Angel. You know damn well that he will never pay for his crimes. His killing Miss Calendar doesn't *mean* anything outside of Giles because he'll never face recrimination for it. You just *know* that if he gets his soul back, in a handful of episodes he'll be paling around with Buffy and crew, trading barbs with them between emo-goth whining about his past. But nothing actually *matters*. Once more, rivers of blood follow Angel, and nothing happens. Justice is never served. đđ
Dee Gee
2023-06-12 23:10:56 +0000 UTCWhile Buffy is always going to surprise and shock you, there are few episodes that are quite as shocking and as heartbreaking as this one. When you think about it, this storyline is not just the single episode. The whole thing was set up over the entire season by introducing a very likable character, making her special to one of our favorite characters, making her a critical part of the group, her betrayal, and her eventual redemption that was so harshly interrupted. This is long-term storytelling, and at the time, very few TV series were doing anything like it.
Alan Kobb
2023-06-12 22:49:00 +0000 UTCOh, Juliette, my heart goes out to you. I remember being in total disbelief when I first saw this, too. This show can be fun and lighthearted, but it can also be devastating and I think your disclaimer at the beginning of this post is a good one. I think this action was meant to cause confusion in people's feelings - from both the characters and the viewers. It's a masterfully done episode, the writing and the performances are top notch, though. It's nice to be able to appreciate that more now than I did when it first aired.
indaeo
2023-06-12 22:17:27 +0000 UTCI'm sorry you're feeling so bad about Angel(us) after this episode. But hopefully you know you're not alone. We were all broken by this episode. Hugs to you.
SweetSummit
2023-06-12 22:12:25 +0000 UTC
