(Please read description!) Japanese Phonetics Episode 70—now with native recordings!
Added 2019-10-14 08:00:02 +0000 UTCAugust 7, 2020 amendment: 十冊（read as either じゅっさつ or じっさつ）and 十匹（read as either じゅっぴき or じっぴき）also form entire odaka compounds, as in juSSATSUha / jiSSATSUha and juPPIKIha / jiPPIKIha, rather than JUssatsuha / JIssatsuha and JUppikiha / JIppikiha. Apologies for not including these with the other exceptions, and thank you to Patron Kent for bringing this to my attention!
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Bibliography
Japanese Phonetics Index Page
Patrons! The seventieth episode of Japanese Phonetics is now updated with native recordings! In this lesson we look at so-called first-mora-high counters, as well as some of the more common irregular counters from the odaka-transformation group.
Counters covered in this lesson include:
回 点 年生 号室 円札 時間 週間 ヶ月
As well as the irregular counters:
番 年 杯 枚 冊 匹
As always, if you have any questions or concerns with regards to this lesson, please don't hesitate to leave a comment below. Thank you very much for your continued support, and good luck with your Japanese studies!
Best from Beppu,
Dōgen
Comments
Yes, I understand, no worries. Thank you!
Dan
2021-03-29 14:34:40 +0000 UTCHi Dan! Thank you for the input! I currently have a few other things on my plate, but I'll try to get around to this when I have time. Thanks again for bringing this to my attention!
Dogen
2021-03-28 04:22:34 +0000 UTCHi Dogen, I wanted to ask you a massive favour that just occurred to me now. I just encounter a counter that I still haven't memorised the rule so I come back to look for the counter and been searching through the videos but it would be nice if in the description of the video you could add the counters covered in the lesson just because of the fact that there are I believe 6 lessons in total of counters so just so that we know that we are in the correct video. I know some of them don't cover new counters but new rules but it still makes it a bit complicated to search for a specific counter covered in one lesson. If you could do that it would be really helpful when looking for a specific counter. Thank you very much again, Dogen!
Dan
2021-03-27 14:21:15 +0000 UTCHi Strange, my pleasure. Please note that 回 sometimes isn't accented, however, as I cover in lesson 73: https://www.patreon.com/posts/32201602 Cheers!
Dogen
2020-11-13 12:03:57 +0000 UTCOk, guys. On couple of sites I found that 回 is not always accented. These resources stated that 四回,七回 and 九回 have different pattern. So, I moved to youglish to search random videos with these words. And... they were always pronounced exactly as Dogen-san stated (btw one of the videos was his ))) This is why I like this channel. You can get all those books and stuff, but where do you get experience from? Dogen-san, thanks you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us!
Strange Guy
2020-11-12 23:02:01 +0000 UTCHi Clare! Hard to say without absolute certainty as I don't have a list that goes past 20 with 枚, but in the NHK Accent Dictionary, SAnjuu haSSATSU ha is indeed listed as one correct pronunciations of this word in isolation (note that if this counter is being used as an adverb the later element becomes 平板, however), and for 年, 33年 is indeed SAnjuu saNNEN HA (one 'correct' pronunciation), and 35年 is also SAnjuu goNEN HA (apparently the only 'correct' pronunciation), so your assumption does seem to be correct. That said, I wouldn't worry too much about memorizing all of these rules as there is so much speaker variation with numbers and counters that you'll often hear even standard Japanese speakers use so-called 'incorrect pitch-accent' with numbers, so there really are many 'acceptable everyday pronunciations'. If you like rules, then of course no worries, but this isn't something I personally try to memorize. I like to get a basic feel for the knowledge and then rely on instinct (even if it's wrong) when it comes to the more advanced number rules, such as these. Hope this helps! Cheers!
Dogen
2020-09-11 05:29:11 +0000 UTCHey Dogen, regarding the irregulars, does the irregularity apply when the number is part of a multi-accent number compound as well as alone? So, NIjuugoMAI HA / SAnjuuhaSSATSU ha / etc.? I would imagine it does apply, but wanted to check before I start practicing!
Clare Kappenman
2020-09-10 23:09:24 +0000 UTCHi Kent. Yes, roKUSATSUha and roPPIKIha are both also acceptable pronunciations of these counters, though I prefer roKUsatsu and roKUhiki, as they align with the original rule. With regards to 十冊 and 十匹, this is actually a mistake on my part for not including these with the rest of the exceptions (I'm not sure how I missed this as I always double check my work across multiple sources). These words should indeed be pronounced as juSSATSUha / jiSSATSUha and juPPIKIha / jiPPIKIha. Thank you very for pointing this out; I've gone ahead an added a note to the lesson description to account for this. Cheers!
Dogen
2020-08-07 11:56:15 +0000 UTCAccording to "https://accent.u-biq.org/counter1.html", 六冊、十冊、六匹、十匹 are also 尾高. Is this just more speaker variation?
Kentaro Kawamura
2020-08-06 23:39:07 +0000 UTCThat's alright Walt! Thank you for your support.
Dogen
2020-01-10 04:20:27 +0000 UTCAh right, thanks. Perhaps my auditory instinct had assimilated the "special sound" rule, even though I couldn't remember the details. Sorry for bothering you.
Walt Poor
2020-01-09 16:53:30 +0000 UTCHi Walt, as outlined in previous lessons, in cases in which the odaka transformation number ends with a special sound, such as a ん or a trailing vowel like the う in both 九 and 十, the downstep will shift back one mora, as in KYUunen and JUunen. Thank you!
Dogen
2020-01-09 00:11:23 +0000 UTCIf I heard right, you said that 年 is in the 尾高-transformation group. So what happens with 九年? By itself, 九 is an 頭高 word: KYUu (using Upper case for high pitch and lower case for low pitch). Having 年 in the 尾高-transformation group means that in the compound 九年, the number 九 must change to the 尾高 form kyuU_ (where the trailing _ means that what follows attaches low), so the entire compound would be kyuUnen. Similarly, this rule seems to say that 十年 should be juUnen, rather than JUunen. The 尾高 form for these two numbers really sounds strange to me, so please confirm or correct my understanding.
Walt Poor
2020-01-08 21:16:48 +0000 UTCVery glad to hear that Jae! Will be releasing the follow up to this, which covers the money counter, 円, in just a few days! Cheers!
Dogen
2019-10-27 07:05:24 +0000 UTCLoving the series! These videos on counters are really helpful cause it was one of things that i couldnt figure out in my own pitch accent studies. real useful stuff!
Jae_Games
2019-10-27 03:23:02 +0000 UTC
