Japanese Phonetics Episode 43—LIVE (Updated with native recordings!)
Added 2018-06-11 03:49:48 +0000 UTCNote: At around 10:10 in this video, I note that the standard Japanese z sound（the initial sound in ざ、ず、ぜ、ぞ）sometimes does become a fricative in the word initial position if it comes after a word ending in a vowel and the speaker is talking at a fairly rapid pace. I just wanted to let everyone know that this is true for the initial sound in じ as well. I opted to not mention this as I've found that a fair number of Japanese learners naturally use the correct (either affricate or fricative) pronunciations of じ. Do be mindful of the tongue position in じ, however!
Link to lesson 46 for more information on tongue placement in the affricate version of ず（づ）.
(Watch from 7:12)
Bibliography
Japanese Phonetics Index Page
Good afternoon Patrons! The forty-third episode of Japanese Phonetics is live, now updated with native recordings! In this lesson we look at the consonants z and j, which are both more challenging than most language programs suggest.
As always, if you have any questions or concerns with regards to this lesson, please don't hesitate to leave a comment below. Thank you very much for your continued support, and good luck with your Japanese studies!
Best from Beppu,
Dōgen
Comments
Such a pattern would be familiar to many Spanish speakers, who start "dedo" (finger) with a hard d, but treat the second as an approximant (and this difference, too, is rarely taught, but only picked up by ear, though it's so dramatic as to nearly swallow the mid-word d in some regions, and it's the telltale sign of a spanish-speaker pronouncing the English "Baby"). I'm now hearing Japanese "gogo" and "zazen" as open to the same simple gravitational "pull" of surrounding vowels on voiced consonants that would otherwise be plosives...
Elise Springer
2021-06-02 17:50:25 +0000 UTCNow I'm wondering whether analogous patterns have some effect on virtually any syllable with 濁点 marks. It seems "g" and "d" and "b" -- at least sometimes -- can come out more like fricatives or approximants in some casual mid-word "vowel sandwich" positions. If so, Japanese is consistent, and it would be only because of the romanization (where English-speakers understand z as always a fricative, and "b" as always an airstop) that learners err on one side with z, and on the other side with b and j, etc. Does something like this pattern make sense to you?
Elise Springer
2021-06-02 17:16:25 +0000 UTCVery glad to hear that Jim! Haha yeah non-Japanese names can be rather tricky when it comes to phonetics. Good luck with your future studies!
Dogen
2020-11-24 07:42:48 +0000 UTCHi Dogen, I didn’t know about the different pronunciations of these sounds and now I can pronounce my own name correctly :P Great lesson as always and keep it up!
Jim Palmeri
2020-11-24 02:14:01 +0000 UTCHi Strange guy. ざじずぜぞ are all affricates in the word initial position, and also after ん and っ (if I'm recalling correctly), but voiced fricatives in other instances. Cheers!
Dogen
2020-09-22 02:30:04 +0000 UTCOne question. Is it true for じ and ざ syllables only? When I compare words like 像 and どうぞ I hear that first ぞ is pronounced as affricate as well, while in the second I hear only voiced fricative.
Strange Guy
2020-09-21 16:57:52 +0000 UTCInterestingly enough in Russian standard japanese transliteration system (Polivanov's system) ざ row syllables are written as starting with 'дз-' ('dz-'), thus giving dza,dze,dzo etc. Though during further phonetics explanation books state that you pronounce it as 'dz-' only in the beginning of the words. But I can't recall any examples of mentioning じ sound in the same context. Your videos are very informative indeed!
Strange Guy
2020-09-21 16:53:29 +0000 UTCHi Julien, yes the point of articulation (general area where the sound is created in the mouth) is the same (obviously the tongue and jaw will then immediately move to the あ position sounds like じゃ, to the う position for sounds like じゅ, etc.). In /dʑ/ there is only one point of articulation, the pre-palatal area, but the tongue touches this point (the /d/ part of the sound) and then immediately releases it (the /ʑ) part of the sound. So it's sort of like two sounds said back to back so quickly that they are one, but because they are said in the same place, again, the pre-palatal area, there is not two separate points of articulation. It's not as if the tongue is going from the pre-palatal area to the back of the lower front teeth, or a different part of the mouth, in just in /dʑ/, so the point of articulation is the same. Hope this answers your question!
Dogen
2020-06-25 13:09:09 +0000 UTCIs the point of articulation the same in all of じゃ じゅ じょ じ しゃ しゅ しょ and し? When the sound is affricate, it is written as /dʑ/. Does it mean there are two points of articulation with the tongue moving slightly between the two, or is there only one?
julien
2020-06-25 12:51:21 +0000 UTCHi Matt! Yes, according to all of my resources this is correct—z after ん is technically always said as an affricate, so I would indeed recommend pronouncing both as the affricate [dz]. Cheers!
Dogen
2020-06-10 06:28:54 +0000 UTCThank you so much! This had cleared up a lot of confusions I had before. I was told that in ぜんぜん , the first and second ぜ are pronunced differently. But according to your video (and my understanding now), they should both be pronounced as [dz] (affricate). Is that right?
Matt
2020-06-10 04:17:36 +0000 UTCHi Skabahk. I unfortunately do not—sorry for not being able to help!
Dogen
2018-06-27 01:03:20 +0000 UTCQuick question: do you know where Wadoku.de gets their pitch accent info from?
skabahk
2018-06-25 16:45:06 +0000 UTCYes it does; it's acceptable to pronounce this じ as an affricate or a fricative, though I would wager that it's most often said as an affricate. Cheers!
Dogen
2018-06-23 04:23:48 +0000 UTCDoes the rule still apply when two words are pronounced together? For example, is the sound of じ in 豚汁 affricate or fricative?
Albaraa Kamal
2018-06-22 13:13:23 +0000 UTCHi Emil! I actually work at APU haha. Before giving you concrete feedback however, I'd like to know what you're trying to get out of your time at university? Like any other school, there are positives and negatives to attending APU, so it's all about what you're trying to do with your four years!
Dogen
2018-06-16 10:44:34 +0000 UTCHi Dogen! I'm thinking of applying to APU (Asia Pacific University) in Beppu, and I was wondering if you had any thoughts about the school and living as an international student in Beppu in general. I have done some research, but would love to hear from a citizen directly. This has very little to do with phonetics, and more of a concern about moving to the other side of the planet to study, although I know you have recommended living in the Kanto area for the more "standard" accent. I would be very grateful if you would reply to this comment, but regardless, best of luck in life, perhaps I might run into you at a Beppu Starbucks one day! :D
Emil Vagland
2018-06-15 11:58:32 +0000 UTCCheers! And good luck! ^^
Dogen
2018-06-14 09:39:44 +0000 UTCGreat stuff, it's going to be fun listening out for these over the next few days....
tensaimon
2018-06-14 09:34:31 +0000 UTCHey Simon! Thanks for this; I'm currently working on getting this solved. I think the best way to see if your pitch-accent is correct is to have a native speaker check! You can use sites like HiNative to do this quite easily. Thank you for the support, really appreciate it!
Dogen
2018-06-13 05:50:38 +0000 UTCHey Dogen! Not sure where else to contact you... I wanted to let you know that someone uploaded a playlist of your phonetics series to youtube that is accessible to everyone, Here's the link if you dont want to look for it: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kR7ggalclM&list=PL78L-9twndz8fMRU3NpiWSmB5IucqWuTF&index=13" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kR7ggalclM&list=PL78L-9twndz8fMRU3NpiWSmB5IucqWuTF&index=13</a> . Secondly, I started binge watching your phonetics series. Thank you so much for making this material available to a wider audience. I'm a huge fan of your work, keep it up! <3 I wanted to ask you how do I know when I pronounce pitch accent correctly? I'm mixing my studies with RtK for kanji, Tae Kim's guide for grammar and you for phonetics. I can practice for hours trying to mimic your speech pattern until I get the gist of the 4 pitches, but I have no one to judge my speech pattern. Even if I listen to myself, I'm not a native so I wouldn't know what sounds native and what doesn't.. Thank you for everything <3 - Simon
SimonMaybeRiven
2018-06-13 04:08:21 +0000 UTCNo worries skabahk! Glad to hear that you found it so helpful! ^^ Thank you for the support!
Dogen
2018-06-13 00:36:56 +0000 UTCSeconded! I really found this one interesting! I had recently noticed the varying pronunciations of these sounds while listening to Japanese and it felt pretty daunting, I hadn't put together the existence of a framework or rules surrounding them! *sigh of relief* Thanks again Dogen!!
skabahk
2018-06-12 14:13:43 +0000 UTCAppreciate the support Nicolas!
Dogen
2018-06-12 03:09:59 +0000 UTCEvery time I think I've seen it all, you uncover something that's been hidden right in front of me the whole time!
Nicolas Guillemot
2018-06-11 18:52:21 +0000 UTC
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