Japanese Phonetics Episode 12 (outdated link)
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The twelfth episode of Japanese Phonetics is live! In this episode give a brief general introduction to adjectives, and address nakadaka i-adjectives in detail. This is another lesson that should immediately improve your spoken Japanese; especially for everyday nakadaka i-adjectives such as 暑い, 寒い、白い, 黒い、青い. If anyone has any questions or comments please do not hesitate to let post!
Thank you all for the continued support,
Dogen
Comments
Hi Andrew. The only way to tell the difference is if there is a following particle, so when looking up words on prosody you'll need to attach a particle (unfortunately this usually isn't possible with forvo as words are said in isolation). Without particles 平板 and 尾高 words have the same pitch, so it's literally impossible to tell unless there is a following particle. Hope this helps, cheers!
Dogen
2020-09-04 12:22:22 +0000 UTCEy there, Dogen. I promise I tried to find the answer for myself before I asking. I've been using the prosody tutor resource in conjunction with Forvo to learn the pitch accent of words as a I go. The only shortcoming I've found is that if a word has a low-high pitch-accent, I can't tell if it's heiban or odaka. I looked around to see if prosody tutor will just tell you which one it is. It would seem that it doesn't. I even read the instructions. Did I miss something? Should I be using a pitch-accent dictionary to verify which one it is? I don't want to attach the particle with bad pitch. Thanks again, man.
Andrew
2020-09-04 12:16:32 +0000 UTCHi Strange! It does indeed seem that this is another acceptable pronunciation. い-adjectives are currently going through a phonetic shift, so many conjugations (and even the non-conjugated forms, in the case of 平板 adjectives) have multiple acceptable pronunciations. Cheers.
Dogen
2020-08-21 03:40:02 +0000 UTCI have one question. I've seen in akusentojiten that -ク form of non-heiban adjectives has nucleus position -3 thus gving kaWAiku. Though my version of akusentokiten is old and it's possible that it represents outdated accent.
Strange Guy
2020-08-20 21:47:35 +0000 UTCThat bed head tho xD
TinyWiiner
2020-07-31 04:42:31 +0000 UTCHaha yes it's rather wild in this video. Glad to hear that you're enjoying the series! Cheers!
Dogen
2020-07-18 05:04:52 +0000 UTCmy favorite part of your lessons so far has been watching the micro evolutions of your hairstyle. This one is the best yet. Can't wait till I've reached modern-day-Dogen hair!
Matthew Barzal
2020-07-17 18:12:30 +0000 UTCHi Julian! I I had a similar question the other day so I'll post the reply to that immediately below here to give a bit of context for my answer. Quote: "Hi Cachwir! Technically おいしい is indeed 平板 according to the NHK dictionary, though many speakers pronounce this word, at least in its dictionary form, as a 中高 word. It seems that 上手い also has multiple acceptable pitch-patterns, some speakers will say it as 平板, while other will say it as 中高 word. I personally treat both of the aforementioned words as 中高 い adjectives (including their various conjugations), as this is what I've found most of the speakers I've talked with do (at least for the dictionary forms, again I be technically be making mistakes by applying 中高 rules to the conjugations as well, but my intuition tells me that for these words it may be OK). The reason that you're seeing uMAku is that this is one of the newer acceptable pronunciations of the word. The technically correct pronunciation (and the pronunciation that I was specifically taught to be correct in pitch-accent class) is Umaku, which is why I used it in this tutorial. Recently, however, many speakers will leave the downstep on the ま during certain conjugations, mainly the く and くて form it seems according to the Shinmeikai accent dictionary. NHK says that it's OK to leave the downstep on the MA in all the conjugations I've mentioned in this video (and that it's OK to pronounce all 3 mora 中高 い-adjectives in this way), but because this is the newer pronunciation I'm a bit hesitant to recommend it. I would stick with the 'becomes 頭高' rule because I find it easier, and, again, because it's more established so to speak. Hope this helps!" So there now seems to be two acceptable pronunciations for 3 mora 中高 い-adjectives, and I tend to go with the 'move the downstep back' rule, but if this is your first time studying said adjectives (and pitch-accent in general), then it may be better to simply go with the newer pronunciation listed above, because it does seem to be easier because the accent never changes location. Just be aware, of course, that not all speakers will say 3 mora 中高 い-adjectives this way, so you'll certainly here the traditional pattern as well! Hope that this helps!
Dogen
2020-06-23 06:05:31 +0000 UTCHey Dogen, I'm a little confused about the 3-mora い-adjective conjugations. There are conjugations like すごく and さむく that actively sound wrong to me if the down-step is on the first mora, and whilst すごく seems to be treated by some dictionaries as a separate 中高 word, I feel like with さむい I might just be mapping the pitch accent of the dictionary form onto the conjugated form. Given that you mentioned in your reply to John's comment that some い-adjectives have multiple correct pitch accents, how would you recommend we deal with these cases in general (where our instincts clash with the down-step being moved back)? Many thanks for the videos, I'm finding them really helpful!
Julian Bentham
2020-06-22 11:21:35 +0000 UTCHi Master Chief, in the traditional pronunciation of four mora い adjectives the pitch will shift back on mora, so a word like 短い (miJIKAi) will become miJIkaku, miJIkakute, miJIkakatta, and miJIkakereba. Beyond these conjugations I’m not sure if there is a difference for other conjugations, such as the ‘sa’ form. For the ろう form (which is rarely used), the downstep will always occur on the ろ, as in miJIKAKAROu. I cover additional types of い-adjectives (heiban い-adjectives) in the lessons after this one. Cheers!
Dogen
2020-05-28 05:50:53 +0000 UTCI'd like to know more about both the traditional and other i-adjectives
Master Chief
2020-05-28 04:18:59 +0000 UTCHi John! With these kind of adjectives there are essentially two correct pronunciations, which is why you're seeing different listings depending on the resource. I went with the pronunciations in this lesson as they are the ones I was explicitly taught at a pitch-accent course at Keio University, though again both are acceptable. 高い is a 中高 word, as listed in the NHK dictionary, and, as listed on page 799 of said dictionary, it's downstep in the 高かった form is on the first mora, also in line with the rules outlined in this lesson. As you noted, the gavo.t.u website is not always accurate, so it's usually best to ignore if you find a discrepancy between the listing on said site vs. the listing in these lessons. When this occurs what you're seeing is typically another acceptable pronunciation, or at times, a mistake (though this series is not without flaws either). Hope this clear things up!
Dogen
2020-05-26 05:06:14 +0000 UTCHi Dogen. It seems to me, from listening to recording to native speakers on forvo.com and from using this website (http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/phrasing/index) that the 中高 3 mora い adjectives rule (the one where downstep goes back one mora) isn't for every word. It seems to me that only some 中高 3 mora い adjectives behave in this manner. For Example: 暑い → 2 暑かった → １ 高い → ２ 高かった → ２ 低い → ２ 低かった → ２ The downstep seems to stay the same for 低い and 高い. Is my hearing off? Did I miss something in the lesson? Thanks in advance. Update: This website (http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/phrasing/index) does not seem to be all that accurate, so I should probably ignore it, but the native recordings for 高かった really seems to me that the downstep occurs on the second mora. 高い does not have two listings in the the pitch accent dictionary, so it seems to me that it really is and 頭高 word, and not just a 平板 word that people often pronounce as 頭高 in its dictionary form.
John
2020-05-25 15:00:04 +0000 UTCHi Jim, I cover this a few lessons after this. Here is a link to the relevant lesson: https://www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-8705568 Cheers!
Dogen
2020-05-19 04:43:03 +0000 UTCHi Dogen, loving the series so far! Quick question: How does the negative くない form behave with the nakadaka i-adjectives covered in this video?
Jim Palmeri
2020-05-19 02:27:26 +0000 UTCHi Adrien! In their conjugated forms the adjectives you're talking about are indeed pronounced with an atamadaka pitch-accent pattern (at least, this is one of the correct pronunciations, and the pronunciation I use). That said, because these are simply conjugation pronunciations, rather than dictionary form pronunciations, I still personally consider these kind of adjectives to be 中高, and have never thought about them as 頭高 words. That is to say, the main difference between 頭高 i-adjectives and 中高 i-adjectives is the pitch-accent of their dictionary forms (which are used regularly and thus worth remembering!). Hope this helps! Cheers!
Dogen
2020-04-19 11:32:10 +0000 UTCHi Dogen, thank you for this great series. I have one question: in this episode you said that the downstep of 3-mora i-adjectives goes back one mora when conjugated. So to me it sounds as if they became atamadaka. So my question is: is there any difference (that you did not want to introduce in this episode) between atamadaka and a 3-mora nakadaka i-adj whose acccent has gone back one mora?
Adrien
2020-04-17 19:05:50 +0000 UTCHi Thierry! That could be the issue. I address this in more detail in episode 31—here's a link: https://www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-15419186 Cheers!
Dogen
2019-11-30 05:09:37 +0000 UTCHello. I would like to have more information about the accent shift on the 3 mora i adjectives. My Japanese wife is straight up telling me that it's wrong although she admits people do say it that way... So I'm lost hehe. Is this related to the fact you mentioned about the disparity between older and newer intonation?
Thierry Viau-Chauny
2019-11-28 12:28:20 +0000 UTCHi Imaginary! I answer this question in a later lesson specifically about the negative form of I-adjectives. Cheers!
Dogen
2019-11-19 00:14:27 +0000 UTCI know I'm a bit late to the party, but thanks for the video! These rules seem like they'll help a lot. :D Are these rules the same for conjugating to the negative form as well? (Such as with かわいくない, does the downstep remain on the first い?)
Imaginary
2019-11-18 19:53:39 +0000 UTCHi Nathan! Thanks for the support! In 面白い the last high pitch is ろ and い is low. It may feel unnatural at the beginning, but you should get the hang of it over time. Definitely record yourself however, to make sure you're not over exaggerating anything. Hope this helps! Cheers!
Dogen
2019-08-16 03:41:30 +0000 UTCHey Dogen, really enjoying your course, it has really unlocked a new and exciting approach to the language for me, so thank you very much! Some questions: In, for example, 面白い does the mora with the down-step decrease in pitch? So in this example ろ would decrease in pitch. Or does the pitch change between the mora? So い would be a lower pitch than ろ, creating a shift downwards in the words pitch. Additionally, when I speak using correct pitch accent, is it normal to feel unnatural? If it feels unnatural, does it mean I'm probably doing it right? Sorry to have asked so much Thanks Nathan
Nathan Turner
2019-08-15 16:39:26 +0000 UTCHi Walt, apologies for the late reply. It's acceptable to pronounce this word either way. The pronunciation that I introduce is considered to be the 'newer' way, while oOkiku, oOkikute, etc. Is considered to be the older pattern, that mostly people in their 40s and up use. That said, I'm not to sure about people using the 頭高 pattern in this word, as you mentioned--to me this feels a bit off and I personally would avoid using it. Hope this helps! Cheers!
Dogen
2019-05-06 04:30:53 +0000 UTCPlease comment on the adjective 大きい. By your general rule for most 中高 adjectives with at least 4 mora, it seems that the downstep should not move. Thus, the pattern should probably be oOKIi, oOKIku, oOKIkute, ... On the other hand, if this is one of the unusual 中高 adjectives with at least 4 mora, perhaps the downshift should move forward one mora: oOKIi, oOkiku, oOkikute, ... However, I was told that some people use the following pattern: oOKIi, Ookiku, Ookikute, ... What is going on? (I hope my question is clear.)
Walt Poor
2019-05-01 18:05:53 +0000 UTCNo worries Jokin—glad to hear that you can tell that your studies are making such a big difference. The verb lessons will most likely be even more useful! Good luck with your studies!
Dogen
2019-03-10 06:16:46 +0000 UTCI don't know how to feel after discovering I was misspronouncing for that long every 中高 i adjective with 3 moras when conjugated (I've been studying japanese since july 2014) 笑 this is like a huge step for me. Can't wait to learn about verb conjugations too, since the other day I noticed how 食べて is 頭高 and not 中高 hahaha. Thank you for this lesson, this one was specially usefull!
Jokin Pedreño Alcolea
2019-03-08 18:21:34 +0000 UTCHaha yea it really makes a massive difference, right? Glad to hear that you were able to pick up so much! ^^ Can't say for sure, but I believe that most English phonology textbooks would list similar rules. Best of luck with your continued studies!
Dogen
2019-02-27 01:40:54 +0000 UTCThis was eye-opening! It's so much fun to learn the actual rules after years of input and just guessing the patterns. I'm surprised how phonetics isn't a widely popular thing among Japanese learners: being aware of the rules completely changes the way one sounds. I should also find a similar course in English intonation to sound more native-like.
Lina Pirogova
2019-02-26 11:21:18 +0000 UTCHi Cam! I address this in episode 31! Here's a link: <a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-15419186">https://www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-15419186</a>
Dogen
2018-09-04 23:45:08 +0000 UTCI’m also interested in the differences between older and newer pitch accent! (For one, in case I ever need to use it in a game of impressions or similar.)
Cam C
2018-09-04 18:46:58 +0000 UTCHaha well it's certainly true that learning about pitch-accent isn't necessary in order to speak comprehensibly in Japanese—it really just helps for people who are looking to sound as native as possible. I know many people who are very fluent that have never studied pitch-accent (though many of them have quite heavy foreign accents). Just a matter of priorities I suppose! :)
Dogen
2018-08-01 23:59:05 +0000 UTCAt the end you mentioned that "older people", that is, those in their 30s and above, often follow more traditional forms. I often Skype with a Japanese man in his 70s (my age group). My reason for mentioning this is that despite his love of traditional Japanese culture (including pitch patterns without explanations), he keeps insisting that I should simply learn to speak Japanese without ever worrying about pitch patterns. So take that, you young whipper-snappers!
Walt Poor
2018-08-01 23:11:44 +0000 UTCHey Sam. No worries! This is actually quite easy. For all intents and purposes ~め always makes the word 平板. So 固め、少なめ、大きめ、小さめ etc. are all 平板.
Dogen
2018-05-07 02:51:28 +0000 UTCWould ～め work the same way as ~さ、as in for 中高 いadj. Like 高め would have its downfall between か＆め just like 高さ？ As well as for 平板 いadj? Do they follow the same 平板 pattern like 甘さ？As in 甘さ and 甘め has the same phonetic pattern? Apologizes for my confusing way of explaining and asking questions.
Samuel Yong
2018-05-06 10:19:26 +0000 UTCGreat question—it's a bit of both. つまらない is more or less used as an い adjective, but it's actually derived from the verb 詰まる. This is why when you look up the word in a Japanese dictionary it's listed as 連語, or phrase/compound, rather than 形, or adjective. Thus it doesn't play by conventional adjective rules, but verb rules. Hope this helps!
Dogen
2018-04-18 12:57:03 +0000 UTCI have come across つまらない, where the downstep apparently occurs at ら, rather than な, according to the OJAD. Is this an exception to the rule, or is something else going on?
Wesley
2018-04-18 12:17:51 +0000 UTCHi Anthony. I don't have it on me right now, but I believe that the 新明解日本語アクセント辞典 lists both side by side! Hope this helps!
Dogen
2018-02-05 23:53:19 +0000 UTCHello Again! Are you aware of a good source that also reflects the older Japanese pitch accents? I am especially interested if it has a side-by-side comparison/listing.
Anthony Fransway
2018-02-05 21:54:58 +0000 UTCHi Gregory. Thanks for the comment. Can you clarify what you mean by 'shifting like it does for the 3 mora adjectives'? I believe you're talking about the alternative pitch-accent patterns which I didn't cover in this video—is this correct? If so, then yes, it is a feature of older Japanese. I apologize for not completely understanding your question!
Dogen
2018-01-31 12:23:05 +0000 UTCIs the pitch accent for the 4+ mora adjectives shifting like it does for the 3 mora ones a feature of older, more conservative speech? Cause OJAD lists both patterns for 面白い and 可愛い etc. I'm only 19 and want to learn casual youth Japanese anyways, just curious.
Gregory Shutt
2018-01-31 12:12:18 +0000 UTCHi Edvard. I can't say for sure as I'm not sure how their back-end works, but I imagine this is a problem with the algorithm. There is a possibility that older Japanese could be involved, but all of these words are standard 中高, as opposed to 平板 OR 中高, so to me that feels a bit unlikely. Apologies for not being able to offer any more insights on this matter!
Dogen
2018-01-31 09:33:49 +0000 UTCWhen I feed the OJAD website with 暑い、寒い、高い and 白い with く、くて and かった form they get very varied pitch accent results. Is this older Japanese or something else?
Edvard Edholm
2018-01-30 18:07:54 +0000 UTCI'll message you directly :)
Dogen
2017-04-12 05:21:51 +0000 UTCI would actually love to know what the more traditional Japanese sounds like and what some of the rules are for that. I love all the different forms of Japanese, so I would love to know what the older generations speak. :)
TeriyakiKoneko
2017-04-10 21:55:09 +0000 UTCIt's my pleasure Patrick. Sorry for the late reply here as well, just getting to the bottom of my inbox now! Again, feel free to let me know if you have any additional questions, and thank you again for the support!
Dogen
2017-03-22 13:24:32 +0000 UTCHi Patrick! Thank you very much ^^ this will be address in detail in an upcoming lesson, but to answer your question simply, yes in this instance we treat these as two separate words, which is why you're hearing it like this ^^ it also has to do with meaning (I have a feeling that in the instance you're hearing the speaker is trying to emphasis the 'negative'). If this doesn't answer you question sufficiently for now please feel free to DM me!
Dogen
2017-03-22 11:50:34 +0000 UTCHi Dogen. Could you explain something about the negative forms of these i-adjectives? For example the word 「寒くなかった」(it was not cold). I have been listening really carefully to recording of this 7 mora combination 「さむくなかった」. There is an initial downstep from the first mora to the second mora like you explained, and then the pitch keeps going down, but then there is slight rise in the pitch at the fourth mora (な) compared with the preceding (く) and then the pitch keeps going down again after that. That would seem to disagree with the general rule that if you have a downstep in a word, the pitch can never go back up afterwards. But it's behaving as if it were two separate words (さむく) and (なかった), each in atamadaka pattern?
Patrick R
2017-03-22 04:09:26 +0000 UTCThanks Dogen for the really useful information. The rule about the three mora nakadaka i-adjectives having their downstep shifting to the beginning of the word in conjugated forms is a revelation for me. I had heard individual instances being pronounced like that before, but never knew when it would be used. This rule really clarifies things.
Patrick R
2017-03-19 21:39:48 +0000 UTCInteresting question. Would like to know the answer.
Patrick R
2017-03-15 03:18:27 +0000 UTCI have two questions about pitch accent for conjugated i-adjectives. Sorry for wall of text. 1. I've noticed that many native Japanese speakers, when they use a -ba or -te form of an adjective at the end of a phrase, they accent the last mora and pause before beginning the next phrase. It just now occurs to me that if I'm hearing correctly, this is technically illegal since they are doing a pitch up-step after a down-step in the same word. Is this one of those things that everyone does even though it's wrong according to The Rules? Am I mis-hearing, or wrong? 2. In anime and comedy, I sometimes hear unconjugated i-adjectives get drawn out and maintained at a high pitch rather than downstepping. Is this just a silly emphasis/overacting kind of thing?
Timothy Chambers
2017-02-16 22:12:33 +0000 UTCHi Matt, thanks for the comment. 暑かろう is essentially a different way to say 暑いだろう , or "I bet it will be hot," or, "it must be hot." This is grammar point is rarely used in modern conversation by anyone younger than 30. with regards to multiple particle mora, it depends on the particle—this will be covered in an upcoming lesson :D
Dogen
2017-02-11 11:47:07 +0000 UTCAnother great episode! Is 「あつかろ」imperfective form? Did some googling and that's the term that turned up. Not that I have any idea what it means haha. Also, do particles with multiple mora, eg だけ、から follow the same pitch pattern as the single mora particles you've mentioned (は、が、の）?
Matt
2017-02-11 11:30:26 +0000 UTCMy pleasure! Thank you for the support Thomas! ^^ Hope you enjoy the next episode as well!
Dogen
2017-02-10 08:04:59 +0000 UTCMate, another sterling effort. This is pure gold! Keep it up :)
Thomas Threlfo
2017-02-07 21:40:26 +0000 UTC
