Episode 3: Common Japanese misconceptions
Added 2016-10-03 12:28:48 +0000 UTCBibliography
Japanese Phonetics Index Page
The third episode of 'Japanese Phonetics'. In this episode I talk about a few Japanese phonetic misconceptions, such as the "Japanese Intonation is flat" myth. Apologies for the typo in the English title at 6:05--currently on a business trip away from my PC and decided to push the video out as I didn't want to make people wait. Thank you for the understanding, and I hope everyone is able to take a few things away from this episode!
Dōgen
Comments
As someone who has lived in Kansai and Kantou, and spent 20 years mixing both I can verify how important it can be to get solid with just standard Japanese or one first. I get confused if I'm using a dialect on accident too. This is very eye-opening to me, and the reason why I finally decided to come to this beautiful course xD :) Really well put.
Phen-the Moogle
2023-03-07 19:29:25 +0000 UTCNecroing this 6 year video to share my experience and new understanding. Japanese intonation and pitch accent came really easy to me, and I think it's because I unconsciously treated Japanese as a tonal language. Being ethnically Chinese, the importance of accenting and inflections was something I learned at an early age. And even though I ultimately failed to learn Mandarin, it seems the concept was so ingrained that I automatically mirrored the pronunciation and pitch accents of my Japanese teachers. I understood this so unconsciously, I never understood why my classmates pronounced Japanese words so weirdly. In my mind it was just "copy what the teacher said exactly" Only through this video did I come to realize why this was the case Nowadays, even though my Japanese proficiency is quite poor (about N4), as long as I stick to what I know, my appearance combined with my speaking causes many Japanese people do not typically realize that I am not Japanese (which has ironically caused me some trouble)
tekno
2023-02-19 04:13:01 +0000 UTCYou can always find the full list of episodes and additional content on the Japanese Phonetics Index Page: https://www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-index-16489306
Dogen
2022-03-02 02:18:38 +0000 UTCGood morning! I'm sorry but where can I find episode 5 and the rest? Thank you.
Kelly
2021-12-10 02:01:01 +0000 UTCHi Greg, yes! This is a reference to how certain areas of Japan are famous for different kinds of mushrooms, and how sometimes said areas use a form (dialect) of Japanese that is different from standard Japanese (although it's not always a difference in pitch). Cheers!
Dogen
2021-07-03 12:18:35 +0000 UTCSound like a mushroom farmer? As a would-be mushroom farmer, I guess... I'll let it slide. (But seriously, a little lol on that one, is that an actual reference to something?) My own story is interesting with regard to pronunciation in Japanese, as it guided my entire approach. I'll share it some time. Looking forward to digging into the lessons.
Greg Torkelson
2021-07-02 14:18:54 +0000 UTCIt can indeed be tricky if you don't know what you're listening for. But when you do have a target, everything is much easier. Cheers!
Dogen
2020-08-15 00:03:56 +0000 UTCThis is a key I've missed for many years. (My first introduction to Japanese was about thirty years ago, as a teen.) I started off analyzing for accentuation and eventually figured out the pitch accent thing. But THEN I was analyzing for something like "the one high-pitch mora". You point out that pitch accent can have multi-mora patterning. This is really valuable! Your Japanese teacher's concept of "no accent" --> "no marked downstep", seems to me.
Luis Morales Knight
2020-08-14 04:21:00 +0000 UTCHi Jetplane! Great question. I do think that you should be using these lessons to concentrate on the fundamentals, as I mentioned in other lessons, but I'd like to clearly stress that you should use these videos to learn the rules, and know that my pronunciation isn't native. Thus, it's best to again concentrate on the knowledge that I present in these lessons, and then to listen for the things I talk about in native speech, rather than using these videos as a substitute for native immersion. I'd like to remake these earlier lessons with native recordings soon, but I'm currently a bit backed up, so it may be a bit more time before I'm able to. That said, because the information in these lessons is still extremely valuable for Japanese learners, I still strongly believe that you'll learn a lot from these videos, again, just be aware of the caveats I've outlined here. Hope that this answers your questions, and good luck with your Japanese studies!
Dogen
2020-08-11 11:24:46 +0000 UTCこんにちは、 I've noticed that these videos are fairly old now, and that in comments in more recent videos you say that these earlier videos should only be used for the fundamentals. I was just wondering if I should indeed be starting on these earlier videos, or if there is more up to date beginner Japanese phonetic videos somewhere in this patreon. Regardless I'm already learning a lot thank you for the helpful content you put out.
Jetplane Vanman
2020-08-11 00:24:27 +0000 UTCHi Abhi, not that I'm aware of. As far as I know, Japanese evolved from a different base language than Chinese—if my memory serves me correctly, there is some evidence that points to Japanese and Turkish being related. That said, there's not too much more I can say on this topic at the moment, please accept my apologies!
Dogen
2020-04-01 01:12:09 +0000 UTCI'm curious, is there any relation to the historic tone of words in Chinese to the pitch accent patterns adopted in Japanese?
Abhi Ilindra
2020-03-31 16:21:02 +0000 UTCHi Michael. Standard Japanese is used nearly all the time in the Tokyo-Yokohama area, and all over Japan in more formal situations. If you've ever used a Japanese audio tape or CD I can almost guarantee that Standard Japanese was used. Does this answer your question?
Dogen
2018-01-09 03:31:40 +0000 UTCWhere in Japan do they speak "Standard Japanese" rather than a dialect? That concept seems odd to me. Or if you prefer, where would you suggest going to to observer "Standard Japanese" to develop those phonetic patterns rather than a regional dialect?
Michael Rowell
2018-01-08 21:30:15 +0000 UTCAdmittedly, if there's one thing I can appreciate about my teachers, it's that they've never made the assertion that Japanese intonation is flat - I didn't even know that was something teachers would say until your videos. There's never an incredible focus on intonation, but they do make reference to it and suggest paying close attention to the intonation when/if we do shadowing. In my first year, they introduced Prosody Tutor Suzuki-kun to us for our 発表、but I actually didn't really use it that much because at that time, I wasn't as focused as I probably should've been on it... However, that shall now change! I'll probably remain focused on my writing because of the piece I'll have to write in my final year (and also because I don't like letting my marks drop), so my progress may be a tad bit slow, but I shall 頑張ります！
okaykei
2017-10-30 22:36:08 +0000 UTCWasn't aware that this is a problem! Apologies for the confusion—will try to find a solution to this soon. Thanks for signing up and let me know if you ever have any questions!
Dogen
2017-07-19 14:33:02 +0000 UTCI’ve n00bed my way a bit more and found them on the patreon desktop version of the website! I couldn’t find them on the iPhone app which was my problem. But all is good now ! Thanks again man !
Thom
2017-07-17 03:51:52 +0000 UTCHey! I’m living in Nagoya and fancy sorting out my gaijin accent so became a Patreon as I’ve recently become a fan of your stuff on YouTube. But looking for phonetics lesson 4 and up. Am I being an idiot cos I can’t find it. I’m probably being an idiot because your the first I’ve supported through patreon and n00bing my way through this website. Thanks for all the content man, From your new sub - Thom
Thom
2017-07-17 03:05:27 +0000 UTCHi Linda! Thank you very much for the support—truly appreciate it! With regards to your question, I definitely think there is room for improvement. I've been living in Japan for almost nine years as well, but my intonation is still continuing to improve because I actively work at it. I suspect there the accent in personalities such as David Spectre is due to two things: age (starting late) AND a lack of pitch-accent based studies. To answer your question directly, I don't believe that it's possible to achieve a 100% native pitch-accent for anyone beginning their studies after 15 or 16 (for the record my Japanese definitely isn't 100% native either!), but I do believe it's possible to achieve a 'native-like' pitch accent. That is to say, I don't think a non-native speaker (including myself) can ever say 100% of utterances with perfect pitch-accet, but it's definitely possible to improve your 'pitch-acccent batting average' so to speak. 99% is probably unrealistic, but an improvement from 30% to 90%, is definitely doable, and the difference between 30% and 90% is much larger than the difference between 90% and 100% :) My personal thoughts—hope that this helps! ^^ Thanks again for the support!
Dogen
2017-06-27 13:23:08 +0000 UTCHi Dogen, Thanks so much for creating this phonetics series. I signed up a few days ago and am hooked already! This is really great value! I have actually been studying Japanese while living in Japan for almost nine years. I am thus at a pretty advanced level when it comes to reading, vocabulary and even my written Japanese isn’t too shabby. I have always been aware that my intonation wasn't that great but had kind of assumed it would sort of just “fix itself” over time- with enough exposure etc. Also none of my Japanese friends never really pointed it out to me as you are still understood 95 % of the time. In addition, being a native German speaker, I used to have a relatively strong German accent speaking English but eventually got to a near native English pronunciation kind of “naturally”. So I assumed this would at some stage just “happen” with Japanese too. However Japanese accent apparently just doesn't get better with just enough exposure ( as can be seen with such famous TV personalities such as David Spectre who speak excellent Japanese but still have a “western” intonation). So, here my question for you: I know that you worked very hard on your accent/intonation early on. Do you think it is still possible to get to a native intonation level if you are already at a quite advanced stage? I am looking forward to your thoughts if you have the time to get back. Many thanks in advance! Linda
Kotori
2017-06-27 08:29:18 +0000 UTCHi again Alyazea! Going on a phonetics spree over the summer is a fantastic idea; it'll probably be just enough if you aren't studying other subjects at the same time :) I'm not familiar with that book, but if it feels like it's helping definitely keep using it! The link at the amazon book looks good as well, I think I may have used an older version of it during university, but can't remember for sure, as I pulled from a variety of sources. The reviews are positive to boot—I'd say go for it! ^^
Dogen
2017-05-27 15:43:53 +0000 UTCI can't risk my grades, but I'm going to spend my summer vacation improving my ability on speaking. Of course, I prefer to speak like a native so I'm glad that there is a way to do so. Your series is going to be a great help. Actually, a few weeks ago, I bought Japanese: the spoken language part 1 by Jorden and Noda. Do you think it's going to help in a way? I studied only the first few lessons, and they provide great notes regarding the matter. About the book, here is the link: <a href="https://www.amazon.co.jp/Sounds-Japanese-Audio-CD-CD-ROM/dp/0521617545" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.co.jp/Sounds-Japanese-Audio-CD-CD-ROM/dp/0521617545</a>
Alyazeya
2017-05-27 13:24:48 +0000 UTCHi Alyazeya ^^ Thank you very much for the support, I really appreciate it! It really depends on your goals; if you really want to sound native in Japanese I definitely do believe that going on a phonetics binge is the most effective method; if your end goal is to sound close to native you may be better off concentrating on speaking now, even if it means getting a slightly lower grade in university classes (this is, of course, up to you ^^). I can almost guarantee that your phonetic abilities will improve at a faster rate now than they will while you are in grad school—especially if you are still in your first or second year. The first book seems more like an academic report than a textbook for Japanese learners, so I would stay away from it. I wasn't able to find the second one from a search alone (there were several with similar titles). Can you send me a link of the book you were looking at? ^^ Thanks again for the support, and I hope that you are able to learn a lot from the series!
Dogen
2017-05-27 11:49:58 +0000 UTCHi Dogen! I just signed up after watching your first three videos. I'm really impressed to know these things about language that I have been studied for the past four years on my own. You mentioned that It might be better to stop studying kanji and grammar, but I think this will be difficult to accomplish, my time is limited actually. I'm studying English linguistics in university and planning to get a master degree in Japanese's after graduation. I would like to know your idea of such a plan. Do you think it will be easy or at least possible to study basic Japanese linguistics for the following years along with learning the language until then? One more thing, I found books about Japanese pitch accent and Japanese phonology in Amazon.co.jp under the titles: The production and perception of Japanese pitch accent, and the other one is The sounds of Japanese. Do you recommend them to have further information about this field? Thank you som much, you're doing an amazing job. Looking forward to complete the series.
Alyazeya
2017-05-27 09:57:15 +0000 UTCHi Evan! Thanks so much for the support, I truly appreciate it. Yes, if you have never studied Japanese phonetics I imagine your Japanese may sound somewhat off to your native Japanese friends. And yes! I do know that resource and use it on a fairly regular basis. It's a wonderful tool, and something that I intend to introduce in my 'useful Japanese tools' episode. That being said, it also has it limitations (it is especially weak at compounds), and should be one of many tools you use to improve your Japanese. Cheers!
Dogen
2016-10-08 06:12:08 +0000 UTCHi Dogen! I just began funding on Patreon--I had never worried about my pitch accent before but now I'm really interested in pronouncing words correctly. Although I can understand the English of my native Japanese friends, their tone sounds unnatural to me and I imagine I must sound the same way to them. I was wondering if you had ever seen this tool before, which I stumbled on this morning and seems like a potentially useful reference. <a href="http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/eng/pages/home" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/eng/pages/home</a>
Sabera Mesia
2016-10-07 19:16:27 +0000 UTCHi Steve, it certainly will - it will especially help you to distinguish between words that sound familiar, and develop your ability to catch pitch accent patterns. I will be covering this a bit in the next video!
Dogen
2016-10-07 16:23:44 +0000 UTCHi Dogen! Question - Will learning pitch accent help my listening skills? I have a VERY hard time understanding spoken Japanese.
Steve Gorman
2016-10-06 23:26:37 +0000 UTC
