Andrew Torrez Apology

I deeply hope you're wrong (about Andrew apologizing and then joining the anti-MeToo, anti-SJW brigade like Silverman did), but my confidence in that not happening has taken a serious nosedive.

Gretchen Koch

I wish you all the best. As a Canadian, I found the insight into progressive American legal thought very helpful and at times it's given me a bit of hope for the future of things here in North America. But the problem with being a public figure is that you need to be beyond the appearance of impropriety. Being right isn't good enough in positions of leadership. Cheers.

K538

Andrew, I'm not going to call you a piece of shit or garbage or any of the other nasty things people are saying on here. I'm also not going to excuse your behavior in any way. You may be sorry, or you may only be sorry that you got caught. You also may be trying to cover your own ass in every way you can, and being an apparently good lawyer I'm sure you have a lot of tricks up your sleeves about this. I found out about this whole thing when I began listening to the newest episode of The Scathing Atheist. It seems obvious to me that you've hamstrung PIAT into keeping their mouths shut about whatever you've done. Other people on here have said that Thomas went into self-preservation mode and they think that's what his statements are and nothing more, but from what I know about the situation thus far, it sounds like you're the one in self-preservation mode. You've locked Thomas out, hamstrung PlAT to keep them from saying anything specific, and then released this "apology" seemingly to garner support and keep your listeners. I’m not a lawyer but I think I’m pretty good at paying attention to the specific words people use when they get into trouble. They use specific language that minimizes their involvement in situations or makes it seem like they’re not to blame or they tell the truth without telling the truth. That’s what it seems like you’re doing here. That's not someone who's truly sorry. That's someone who's trying to control the narrative and diminish your actions as much as possible by only admitting to as little of the accusations as possible. I don't know you, I don't know your life, I don't know everything that's happened, this is just my opinion. You did wrong. Whether Thomas lied about his side or not, I don't know. I don't know who attacked whom first and I don't really care about that. Thomas seemed sincere in his recordings, but I can't say for certain. At this point l'll have to withdraw my support for this podcast for the time being and most likely forever. My opinion right now? This is damage control and nothing more.

Brandon Talbot @ sponsormycasket.com

I want my money back for ever supporting this sexual harassing piece of garbage. Then you hijacked Thomas’ show and made a fake apology. I hope your life is ruined, Andrew. You are garbage.

Ian

Ethically, emotional appeals should only be used in intimate relationships, not celebrity-viewer interactions unless the purpose is entertainment. Thomas publishing an emotional statement put me off. Andrew doing similarly leads me to think the appropriate course of action is to give both a time-out until they can come to an amicable agreement after clearing up some clearly fundamental misunderstandings. I think neither should post new episodes until they resolve those misunderstandings. Failing that, I think the OA project should be handed off to completely different people both Andrew and Thomas trust. If that doesn't happen by 3 months after the publication date of the last episode in which both hosted (OA 686 dated 2023-02-02), I'll end my support. Until then, I hope ways can be mended, forgiveness can be found, and misunderstandings cleared.

Baltakatei

Andrew Torres I will maintain my membership and look forward to hearing from you in the future.

Jamal Jackson

Would just point out that the text messages between him and his wife show him struggling to process that experience. The magnitude may not be so great, but it still happened several times and it still affected him.

CutePhoton

I’ve been out of the country on a cruise and I’m just hearing about this now. I just heard this apology, so I guess I need to listen to all the MSW podcasts to find out their side of the story?! Man, he was on so many of my favorite podcasts.

Robert Tingstrom

I didnt think about that ! I've been listening to DOD since they started (blame Tom lol) and you're right. I believe listening to the DOD podcast is probably why I feel more empathetic towards Thomas because that is definitely a much deeper deep dive into their upbringing and emotional history. Thank you for that.

NSaneAtheist

He posted twice on OA , just saying Andrew had locked him out of everything. Sadly, they did not stay up for long (im sure andrew took them down) but andrews 'apology' made it to the podcast

NSaneAtheist

Sorry, bud. But I think Andrew saying he wants to keep being OA to us is optimistic. Maybe in time we’ll get some clarity, but right now things are just bad. I kind of want this to try and switch to the approach MSW took. Do the dirty laundry behind the scenes. Make only the necessary announcements and information. Because this piecemeal doomscrolling instant gratification thing that’s been happening the last week is on part how we got to this point. So yeah, I don’t think we’re getting anymore OA. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the end overall, but I think given what’s out there now, it’s hard to see how Andrew and Thomas could ever have a civil conversation together, let alone cohost a near-daily podcast together.

Corey Helwig

Will this be Andrew and Thomas still!? Or Andrew and other comedian?! Anyone know?!

Robert Tingstrom

Apologies in advance, I am not very good at interpreting genuineness of messages based on their delivery, especially (being a Continental European) not the "American way" where every good speech has to be impassioned and emotional. Everybody has their own judgement on whether Andrew's quivering voice in his apology or Thomas's extreme sobbing were genuine, performative, and/or exaggerated. But what I definitely cannot understand is why anybody thinks that Thomas "deserves" to inherit this podcast in this breakup. OA is so clearly Andrew's podcast. It is Andrew that reads and analyses hundreds of pages of documents for every podcast and writes the scripts. It is Andrew that does the deep-dives and can answer all questions. Andrew has a day job (I don't mean being a philanderer) and still found time to fill 4 episodes per week with material to spare. Thomas provided good entertainment and managed to rein in Andrew when it went too far into the details. For that I found that he was a great co-host. Yet not more than a co-host. I never had the impression that Thomas was prepared beyond reading the script. But - pardon my bluntness - Thomas is (at best) the Garfunkel to Andrew's Simon, the Sonny to Andrew's Cher, the Ringo to Andrew's Paul&John, the Pierre Curie to Andrew's Marie Curie. Independent of how bad Andrew's actions were: in no fair world would Thomas be deserving of taking over Andrew's brainchild! Then on the 'stealing'. Episode 687 started with "Hello, this is Thomas and Andrew will be away from the podcast for the time being". That sounded like TS kicking out AT. I think that anybody in AT's situation would feel threatened that a years of one's research and effort would get stolen and would want to protect it. And having said and done sleazy things does not justify that one loses control of one's baby. e.g. one can (and should) boycott JK Rowling for her TERF-y ideas, but the Harry Potter franchise is still hers. That being said, @Andrew, if you are reading this, my unsolicited advice: You are likely going to lose a lot of patrons, please don't make it worse. I hope that this all will not lead to litigation, despite his allegations. TS is certainly going to pick up a lot of OA's Patrons, while you have been kicked off CUOA45, but nonetheless, please don't stiff Thomas financially completely: Personally, I think that he should get his share of whatever you initially agreed on up and until this "messy divorce" but maybe also throw in a couple of weeks/months more as sign of good will? For seemingly the majority of commentators here, your actions were unforgivable, but despite his allegations, litigation will not gain you any favours. (For the record, I don't believe that you were going to do that). All my love and compassion to all involved!

Nilek

I’m not sure I listened to the same thing as a lot of the other patrons. Continue to work on yourself Andrew, we’re all only human and I’d like to think you are willing to put in the effort.

A Sauce Packet

Dr. Osterman seems as shocked as the fans is my read. same? Hopefully that's true because I'll bet many would love to support her jump from academia to podcasts and make some lemonade out of this horrible unnecessary mess.

Todd

Yeah, that’s a thing I’m struggling with, for all of them – Eli and Noah as well. The huge tragedy, even beyond the pain of the victims, is that everyone could be telling the truth. Andrew may genuinely have not realised that he was crossing boundaries. It doesn’t mean he didn’t cross them: just that a combination of alcohol and masculine privilege did what it does all too often: made him see what he wanted to see, and miss the rest. Doesn’t excuse him, but may explain how someone who we’ve all looked up to has done something so awful. In which case he’s going through hell himself right now too. Which may explain some of the shit that’s happening now. But … what did other people know, and what did they do about it is an issue. Not outing a victim is one thing. But did anyone take Andrew aside and tell him he needed to stop? Because if not, they have some questions to ask themselves. Respectfully listening to a victim and saying you’ll support them is good. Better would be to also tell your friend that his behaviour was not ok. And, heaven help me, keeping an eye on him in future situations where this was likely to happen. Because a drunk horny male may well not hear what the object of his attention is saying. But sober the next day, he’ll usually hear his male friends telling him no. So … did they? What a mess. What a horrible mess. A horrible, unnecessary mess.

Joannasephine

Why are people saying Andrew owes Thomas his career? Isn't that kind of in opposition to the idea that Andrew was in a position of power over Thomas? Are you just saying that you think Thomas is the reason the podcast saw success?

kalsuri

At the time that Thomas released the Liz Dye episode, Andrew had already released his statement about stepping away from the show. From our perspective at the time, it was Andrew choosing to step away and Thomas choosing to keep the show going without him. It's only now that Andrew has announced his intentions to continue the show that that has changed.

Joe

I've come to terms with not being able to support Andrew...fucking sucks. Struggling with Thomas who I feel was victimized by the fridge incident. I'm trying not to judge Thomas after that. The stumbling block is his old text where he seems to have knowledge of previous allegations predating the fridge incident. Is the "concerning that it fits the pattern" "yeah exactly" part of the exchange what I dread it is? Knowledge of past allegations against Andrew? I get not outing a victim but there's other options such as walking away. Or am I unfairly partitioning Thomas' victimhood pre and post refrigerator incident? Given the power dynamic, anybody could understand how coming forward publicly about accusations would be terrifying. But unless his victimhood predates the knowledge of accusations, I don't' know how to excuse the continuing on. Dammit I hope I'm getting this all wrong. I'm sorry Thomas for questioning this if I'm wrong. Somebody please tell me my comprehension skills are garbage and I've got that mixed up because I really do want to support Thomas in future endeavors. He unconditionally has my support as a victim regardless of whether I'll support the business :(

Todd

So what you're saying is if we're in a business partnership and partner A does something wrong to a THIRD PARTY, partner B has the right to take over partner A's share? That's a bold legal and moral theory. Again, I don't know the details and neither do you, but it seems to me everyone's piling up on Andrew for doing the exact same thing that Thomas was poised to do.

Hotspear

That is literally exactly what I would like to see, Thomas taking over OA. Andrew is facing consequences for his own actions and choices, and the fact is nobody is going to want to continue to listen to or support OA if Andrew is the primary host because he has betrayed everyone's trust. OA should continue with Thomas and any number of other legal experts that could fill in, rotate, or become the new co-host. Andrew did the right thing and divested himself from Puzzle In A Thunderstorm, he should do the same thing here. He still has a career as a lawyer and money to put food on the table. Thomas' career is podcasting. If he really wants to make things right with the people he's hurt, he has an opportunity here to do it. But his actions are the opposite of his words right now. Thomas is one of the people he victimized. He owes Thomas just as much as he owes the rest of them.

Blue Gemini

there are a couple of points i'd like to respond to there. i do not say always believe the victim which is why i tend to avoid that over simplistic formulation. the point is to give victims the space they need to speak, that does not mean you have to abandon all critical judgement but it does mean you should think carefully before rushing to criticise things like emotional state. if you do not have the knowledge to understand that victims can exhibit behaviours that may not fit the victim narrative society expects. what see as dubious or manic can come across as quite authentic to people who have seen victims or been victims. that doesn't mean you are incorrect just that the reasons you choose play into a very old school view into which victims have been expected to conform if they want to be believed. i do not suggest 'you' like andrew as an accusation i am saying that presumably we all do, why else are we here? to want to give him some benefit of the doubt, to want to have our own good opinion of him prove valid, these are human things. are some human things inane? certainly but that doesn't make them vanish.

Tom Pegg

I think people keep losing sight of the fact that everything that’s happened is squarely, 100%, Andrew’s fault. Including Thomas’s reaction to his whole world being destroyed by a philanderer who apparently had a hard time taking “no” for an answer. Could Thomas have handled it better? That question is irrelevant because he shouldn’t have had to handle any of it.

Blaseking

It’s on the Serious Inquiries Only web page, but fair warning, it’s a tough listen.

Blaseking

This is what you choose to respond to?? A question about money? Do what you said: walk away for a while

No More President Fraud

I don't even understand how to parse your question. Are you saying if Thomas had taken over the show after havingdone things for which even he recognized he'd crossed unacceptable lines multiple times? Yeah, i would be feeling and doing the samething. It's baffing that you and Andrew still think this is all about *Andrew*. It's actually about the people he hurt

No More President Fraud

I’ve read and listened to both sides as much as I could find. I’m so disappointed and devastated that this is happening. As another patron said, a para social relationship doesn’t mean you know a person. I loved this podcast so much and looked forward to every episode. It feels like a nasty divorce at the moment being played out online. I’m, sadly, pulling my support and hope Andrew fully apologizes to his victims (including his wife and son) and seeks help for himself.

Sir Reginald of Highland

Indeed, you have drawn inferences where no implications reside. I have done nothing to defend Andrew. Clearly, my issue is the level of reflexive emoting without proper consideration that it is not a zero-sum game. That I am dubious of Thomas's current manic presentation does nothing to indicate that I support Andrew. Read my three comments carefully. To reflexively say "always believe the putative victim" as an operating principle would result in an undesirable outcome. Of course, we should always give provisional credit pending assessment of the facts. I do not dismiss Thomas. I'm simply offering the possibility that he saw the opprobrium he would incur for his silent knowledge on the horizon and resurrected a claim that he himself had moved past. No statement in this regard exonerates or even mitigates Andrew's offenses. Suggesting that I simply like Andrew and therefore cannot be honest is blush-inducing inanity.

Tom Lutes

Side note, I’m not seeing the statement Thomas made, did he take it down? I’m curious for multiple view points

Austin Enverba

it feels like you are conflating a criminal standard of proof 'beyond all reasonable doubt' with a civil standard 'the balance of probabilities' and using that to argue that we, as a community, should doubt the victims. but maybe i am misjudging you. as a community we are mostly doing precisely what andrew and thomas have advocated week after week. take victims seriously. applying the same standards to andrew as we would apply to anyone else. it's not easy, we like him or we probably wouldn't be patrons of the show in the first place but i think that andrew we like would be the first to tell us that's what we should be doing. i think your assessment of thomas, especially the texts, falls into that trap that defenses use time and again to get abusers off the hook. we want perfect victims who behave in the correct way that we think victims ought to. we victimise them again by judging their performance of victimhood as not worthy as if they were auditioning for some award. but real victims often hide it, box it up and bury it deep so they can keep functioning. they don't wail and gnash their teeth because you can't do that and still function. they can seem, to us, oddly unemotional because they have disassociated from the events. they don't report because they have doubt and fear and they know they will face this disbelief, distrust and dismissal of their pain. it's survival tactics. i bring my own personal experiences to the table here, i know they colour my views and apologise if that has caused me to read too much into your comments.

Tom Pegg

Andrew this is so true, please take it to heart. I had the same thoughts. Trust me as a caring outside observer, you are making this worse by your actions. You got into this mess by making very human mistakes. You're going to get out of it by being human, not by lawyering. Please lean on people who care about you and listen to them. I know inside you know this is wrong. You're digging your hole deeper and deeper. I believe you can fix this but it is going to take time, vulnerability and HUMILITY, and a lot of strength of character. I know you are capable. It's a question of whether you will or not. I'm really really hoping you do.

Crazy Animal Lady

Feel free to call me credulous. Another white man defending white male bad behaviour surprises me not at all, and I'm done engaging with you.

Diziet Sma

We're all devastated by finding that Andrew talked the talk without walking the walk. But parasocial relationships with the soft voice in our ears does not constitute knowing someone. My 50th birthday was just ruined by this information coming to light in real time. I had to accept someone I admired and apparently idolised was very much not who he appeared, and it was terrible and hard. But my struggle is as nothing to what his victims have been experiencing. We have to listen to their voices, and we cannot support Andrew until and unless he genuinely atones. This "apology" shows he's not ready now; we can't know if he ever will be.

Diziet Sma

Your logic taken to its fullest extent would mean that we could, for example, skip the trial and sentence anyone accused of rape (not that such is the accusation here). Otherwise, we would not be "believing the victim?" We should never glibly dismiss such charges. The putative victim should always be heard and taken seriously even while critically considering the facts.

Tom Lutes

To be clear, I am neither defending Andrew, nor suggesting those claiming harassment are disingenuous. He has a lot to answer for.

Tom Lutes

I'm not naive about human nature or psychology, so I am not as credulous. I don't abandon critical thought based on emotional claims. I have reviewed the material. I don't fall into the "always believe" the person claiming victim status expulsion of reason cadre. It is possible for Thomas to be both a victim (to a greater or lesser extent) and simultaneously culpable in some ways regarding concealing Andrew's behavior. It is not a zero-sum game.

Tom Lutes

You have clearly not listened to the genuine trauma in Thomas's last post on SIO if you are questioning his veracity. And an awful lot of information is available, on a Google drive amongst other things. Multiple victims have spoken out. You could have sufficient information if you chose. Do you choose to believe victims or not, that's what this comes down to.

Diziet Sma

While I would not presume to know, one cannot discount out-of-hand the possibility that Thomas is trying to get ahead of that aspect out of reflexive self-preservation. Throwing in the personal victimization (which may or may not be embellished) would be consistent with a panicked red-herring reaction. The bottom line is that I am holding judgment in abeyance until/unless the facts come out. Obviously, Andrew, by his own admission had serious personal failings, but Thomas may be attempting to avoid the collateral stink. The text exchange with his wife seems oddly scripted/stilted. Again, I don't know. I would say I have insufficient information.

Tom Lutes

While I would not presume to know, one cannot discount out-of-hand the possibility that Thomas is trying to get ahead of that aspect out of reflexive self-preservation. Throwing in the personal victimization (which may or may not be embellished) would be consistent with a panicked red-herring reaction. The bottom line is that I am holding judgment in abeyance until/unless the facts come out. Obviously, Andrew, by his own admission had serious personal failings, but Thomas may be attempting to avoid the collateral stink. The text exchange with his wife seems oddly scripted/stilted. Again, I don't know. I would say I have insufficient information.

Tom Lutes

I've listened to every episode you guys have put out and have been a patron since episode 10 or so. Step away and let someone else take the reins. Until then I'm out.

Chris

Guys, I'm curious, how would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot? if Thomas took complete control over OA and kicked off Andrew? because that's exactly what it was shaping up to be. Did you listen to the last episode with Liz Dye? if you feel differently then you have to admit that your decision is based on your negative feelings towards Andrew (legitimate or not) and not because he was "stealing" the show.

Hotspear

AJ I'm curious, how would you feel if it were the other way around? if Thomas took complete control over OA and kicked off Andrew? because that's exactly what it was shaping up to be. Did you listen to the last episode with Liz Dye? if you feel differently then you have to admit that your decision is based on your negative feelings towards Andrew (legitimate or not) and not because he was stealing the show.

Hotspear

This may be an unpopular position in this forum, but I do not see Thomas as a victim. Both Thomas and Andrew cracked lots of "12" year old jokes, and I always saw them both as rather libertine. I listened to Thomas` recorded message and to me his regret seemed to be that he did not speak up in time, rather than having Andrew put his hand on his hip. It was not Thomas`s job to police Andrews behavior with anyone, and I do not believe he could have even though he felt he should have. Andrew, it is time to grow all the way up. If the things you do when drinking alcohol are causing a problem in your life, then you are probably alcoholic. It is time to give up the party. Seek treatment and remember its one day at a time. Get a sponsor, and work all 12 steps everyday from this day forward. There is hope. As a person who was a handcuffed volunteer at Galen State Hospitals alcohol treatment program in 1986, I know that nobody is perfect, every drunk makes an ass of themself and most of all there is a really great life without the crutch of alcohol. I will still value the deep dives on current events that OA has been putting out for years, and I will continue to support the show on the proviso that you seek help, stay sober and make amends wherever possible. Honor your contract with Thomas, and make sure that he is ok, his world is rocked and you had a big part to play in that. Then finally Thomas, you must do some growing through this as well. Not everything belongs online. Own your role in blowing OA up. There were other ways to deal with your partners alcoholism. I hope you are ok, and there are programs like Alanon that help people who love and care about alcoholics. Find a meeting and I hope you will find acceptance there. Peace be with you both.

Timothy F Sharp

There's also the lovely "5-4" podcast (https://www.patreon.com/fivefourpod), which focuses on how and why the Supreme Court sucks.

David in Brooklyn

I love you guys. You have so much going for you. Hope you can work it out fairly for everyone involved.

Mark Hogue

Thomas never claimed that he was assaulted, and his contemporaneous documents do show that he was disturbed by Andrew’s unwanted touching. Thomas also admitted that he didn’t come forward sooner with knowledge of Andrew’s behavior and apologized. Thomas didn’t strike first; Andrew’s behavior blew this podcast to hell. Andrew is not unique, special, or one-of-a-kind. He’s just a lawyer and can be easily replaced.

AJ

No, of course this was not a paid post.

Opening Arguments

First time ive interacted here in any way just to say donations canceled and podcast unfollowed.

Gabriel Blair

At should practice his “confused” face in the mirror for a while, or perhaps his own cognitive dissonance will help him sell that faux confusion?? idk

Checkout DSmagic.us and DeepFakeStop.com

Hey, quick question, was this a free post or a paid post? Did I give yoy money for this drivel?

Justin Kirck

Thomas has been massively successful here in winning in the court of public opinion. He has people lining up defending him, despite the record showing he's known about the allegations for years. Seems like a shrewd move. Ever notice that he can cry on queue while maintaining enough composure to make careful arguments?

Embrace the chaos

The one where he said it was "nothing terrible" and that he behaves the same way with his friends and that maybe he should stop?

Embrace the chaos

Great idea! I will also double my SIO pledge and cancel this one.

LisaLisa

Yep. Andrew is obviously the origin of the debacle, but Thomas isn't the blameless party that people seem to think he is. He certainly managed the court of public opinion well though.

Embrace the chaos

Can't wait to see Andrew doing the Joe Rogan Steven Crowder circuit with David Silverman

Blue Gemini

Thomas's own record shows that he thought it was "nothing terrible" and then he reflected that he behaves in exactly the same way towards his other friends. He only became a victim when it was strategically expedient. But everyone is apparently ready to give Thomas a pass despite him knowing about the allegations against Andrew for half a decade.

Embrace the chaos

So honestly I 100% agree with you that we don't know the facts. Actually, let me say something stronger than that: I have read through almost all of what is in the Google docs, and I find I have more than a reasonable doubt as to his guilt. None of that matters here. What Andrew did doesn't matter anymore to me on this issue, what matters is that he is clearly responding to Thomas's suddenly adversarial behavior with his own escalation, and that is the morally wrong thing to do. My reasoning is based on 3 observations: 1. Thomas is in a total emotional spiral and is actually irrationally. Listen to his response on his SIO blog, and the 16 second audio clip he posted to this feed before it was taken down for evidence of this. If someone wants to argue that Thomas is "faking it", then frankly that would be simply further evidence for how irrationally he is behaving, since lying like that would only further open him up to consiquenses once Andrew calls his "bluff". 2. Andrew is of (at least somewhat) sound mind. His statement reads as prepared and calculated, and he has otherwise been silent. 3. When your friend is spiraling out of control, and you are of sound mind, the morally right thing to do is to protect them from the consequences of their behavior while they are out of control. Andrew seems to not be doing that. To be clear, #3 is a ridiculously high bar that I don't hold other people to almost ever. Hell not even all of my friends get held to that standard universally. Andrew is one of the few people in my life that I considered smart enough, wise enough, and good enough to be held to that standard. his unique combination of abilities, skills and morals all came together to make him one of the only public figures I actually have ever looked up to. That is the reason that I came to Opening Arguments. That is the reason I pay money for this. If that whole thing was a lie, then... Well I guess I need to reevaluate more than just where I put my Patreon dollars.

Alex The Apologetic (that his name is too long)

Andrew has zero obligation to help Thomas. A lot of credulous people here. Thomas had all the information for years and did nothing until he incurred damage to his finances and reputation. Then he immediately pivoted, piled on Andrew and tried to claim victimhood even though his own contemporaneous documents don't back that he felt harassed or assaulted. Shrewd move by Thomas, since he apparently won the court of public opinion, but I don't know why anyone expects Andrew, a very good lawyer, to stand and take it while Thomas, who struck first, disparages their jointly-owned company. Andrew provided 95% of the content and expertise for the show, and when Thomas chose to go to war, he chose to find a new way to make a living.

Embrace the chaos

So you took over the feed to post this without permission from your former cohost? Torpedo your own ethics, while simultaneously setting yourself up to be a talking head on Fox News. Enjoy those intellectual conversations with Tucker Carlson.

Checkout DSmagic.us and DeepFakeStop.com

Despite everything everybody is saying, I think the most immediate concern is that you, Andrew, need to step up to help Thomas in any way you can. As others have said your dropped a bomb in his life and his livelihood is affected because of your actions and choices. Regardless of how you feel towards him, whether you're angry or hurt, the good and decent thing to do is to give him the monetary support you've just pulled out of his life by what you've done. Don't make the mistake of victimizing MORE people when you're apologizing for what you already did. You have the choice of how you want to respond and people will draw conclusions about your character based on your ACTIONS, not only your words.

Blue Gemini

You’ve taught us well, Andrew. Well enough that many are rightfully pointing out the problems in your apology. You acknowledge that your drinking is a problem and acknowledge the possibility you did things that violated people’s boundaries. Yet in almost the same breath, you “categorically” deny any of the allegations that Thomas made. Isn’t that the exact kind of contradiction a lawyer would use to impeach a witness? That word means something, and you used it intentionally. Either the categorical denial towards Thomas undermines your previous clause, or you haven’t fully come to terms that *maybe* you did something to Thomas, just like you *maybe* did something to the other victims, but there’s a bigger block there you haven’t accepted. Either way, an apology means nothing without immediately stopping the problematic behavior and working to do better. It’s clear you have more work to do in order to do better.

Corey Helwig

Very insightful response, thanks

Blue Gemini

Well said

Jason Coughenour

Fuck off

basil

I'd throw in We Dissent. Liz Cavel (FFRF Staff attorney) Alison Gill (AA VP Legal and Policy) --totally different Alison than AG Rebecca Markert (FFRF Legal Director)

Jason Coughenour

I think Thomas has a much louder voice and used it to really push this ordeal into the public's eye. I'm still waiting to see the text where Andrew is confronted with these issues and doesn't apologize. I would bet money they don't exist.

kalsuri

This is just a note to let you know that per the OA admin on FB, it was not Andrew that removed Thomas' admin access. The Administrators cleared that up saying that they decided both Andrew and Thomas should be removed, so that the FB participants would feel comfortable commenting. The Admin showed the text sent to Andrew, where he willingly agreed with the idea and was subsequently removed. ( I'm not recalling the time or date that message, but the admins posted it on FB). I'm not sure where the confusion lies regarding Thomas' revocation, however they did make it clear that it was not Andrews decision. Hope this helps 🙂

C’mon

If you're really sorry, Andrew, then you'll step down and hand Opening Arguments over to Thomas - a person who did not speak up to you or about you because you controlled all of the financial power in that situation - and let him do the show with Morgan or any number of other attorneys. The fact that you've locked Thomas out of Opening Argument, mischaracterized his account of the way you behaved toward him to try and demean his credibility, and then promised to continue Opening Arguments on your own, those are not the actions of a person of good moral character trying to make right what he has done wrong. Those are the actions of a coward who is using his power as someone who knows the law to intimidate Thomas and all of PIAT into not speaking up against you, the same reason that the women who harassed were afraid to speak up against you - because of a power imbalance that, if you didn't realize before, you've certainly been made aware of now. YOU have the choice to show through not only your words but your actions if you are a person who deserves to be trusted with anyone's patronage, much less have your side of the story understood. But despite your seemingly contrite statement, you have a known pattern of making false apologies and then continuing the pattern of behavior you apologized for, and the fact that you've continued to mistreat Thomas when it took great bravery on his part to speak out against you, implies that you aren't ACTUALLY trying to make this situation right, but are in fact covering your ass. You've made a point before of saying you don't underestimate the intelligence of the Opening Arguments audience, so don't assume they can't see the difference between a sincere apology with an earnest attempt to make things whole again, and a person saving face while not actually changing their behavior.

Blue Gemini

But it wasn't the first time he heard it. It was discussed privately multiple times over the course of years. It kept happening. I'm genuinely wondering if you're missing some context based on your replies.

Cassidy Rogers

Sadness is great:(

Paul

Hes shared his perspective, twice now. You're replying to it. And in another comment you said you were angry at Thomas for putting this into the court of public opinion, but Thomas was the 9th person to come forward with allegations. So how did he put this into "the court of public opinion"? Are you saying him & all of the woman should've taken the Harvard educated lawyer to an unwinnable court case, and somehow kept all of that on the DL while continuing the show? Or are you saying that the victims just should've shut their mouths bc you like the podcast? What's your preferred route for everyone to take here? That's not rhetorical. What, genuinely, would you have wanted the victims them to do? Do we as listeners and patrons not have the right to be informed on who our money is going to? Particularly when the majority of the victims were *fans of the show*, and all of them were found through the show in some way.

Cassidy Rogers

Disgusting, Andrew.

Chris B

I'm an addict/alcoholic. I've tried every kind of recovery program there is since I was 15, finally stayed clean at 21, 6 years sober now. Inpatient, outpatient, long term, AA, dharma, refuge, celebrate, various therapeutic models, harm reduction, ect. I'm the child of an alcoholic and an addict. My husband is an addict with 2 years clean, so I went through his addiction while sober too. I have worked in inpatient drug and alcohol rehabs for 5 years now. Almost every friend I have is an addict or alcoholic, both active and in recovery. All those people, all those different perspectives on alcohol abuse, it's been surrounding me for my *entire* life. Including my patients, literally THOUSANDS of addicts have been in my life by now. >>>>>AND YET, I've never, not once, with all the thousands of addicts and alcoholics ive known, met a person who sexually harassed or assaulted someone else *because of* alcohol or drugs.<<<<<< _____________________________________ (I know this is my second long comment but Jesus. As a SA survivor with polysubstance use disorder, I can't get over the use of a disease as reasoning for this. I may also reply to this comment with some sincere alcoholic to alcoholic advice for Andrew so I stop writing novels that take up so much space in the main comment section🫠)

Cassidy Rogers

Listen to the audio that *someone* deleted from the RSS feed that Thomas posted: https://files.catbox.moe/wzaat8.m4a

Chris B

I respect your opinion, but disagree. If this was the only thing Andrew ever did, that is one thing. We have kind of seen how everyone knowing a little bit of the story allowed this to go on for longer than it should have.

Dan from Deerfield

The Google drive doesn't have the contents of Andrew's mind. There is no question people were hurt, but intent in this case is everything. you have to be convinced that Andrew intended to hurt these women. I'm just not. That's all.

Hotspear

I agree. I need a support group for this now. I'm so very bummed.

One Smart Cookie™ cutters

Read the text conversation Thomas had with his wife at the time it happened.

AJ

THIS. I can't imagine how hurt I would be if the first time I heard that I had wronged someone was through a public announcement.

kalsuri

Ow my heart

BlueJaye

There’s an entire Google file of evidence.

AJ

Pretty sure your issue with alcohol was ALL OVER the place before Thomas mentioned it. But please, continue telling us why this is really Thomas’s fault.

AJ

Andrew, I can't believe you wrote this out and still went through with it. You actually said you wanted to "correct the record" as if you had the complete truth of events. Even just as a person this is impossible. Doubly so for whether or not your actions caused someone to feel intimidated, assaulted, ot otherwise violated. Followed up by the whataboutisms which I seem to recall you yourself saying were/are a Russian propaganda tool. I'm glad you're getting help. You clearly need it. I hope in time you are able to find a measure of inner peace and you can apologize to those you hurt without mentioning anything else.

Terrorbithia

Jesus, with the pitchfork comments. We all hope he stops treating women like shit and gets help, but why should he get to lock Thomas out when he’s the one who is responsible for this mess? Lawyers are seriously a dime a dozen, and this show came out of Thomas’s SIO. Andrew has Thomas to thank for even having a podcasting career. If he is serious about change, he’ll show us by not stealing the show when he’s the one who fucked up repeatedly.

AJ

I'm frankly a bit surprised, although I shouldn't be at all the people who are quick to pass judgment on Andrew confident that they know all the facts, as well as, apparently can read hearts and minds. I almost envy your self-confidence. almost. but not quite. entirely unlike compassion. It's ok to reserve judgment, really. Before we take out the pitchforks and Tiki torches, maybe, just maybe let's be sure we're headed toward the correct barn house.

Hotspear

Thanks for letting me know. I edited my comment where I claimed Andrew was deleting them to say that it was probably just Patreon's glitchiness.

Stormy Decisis says visit sharebannedbooks.com

Yeah, these are SERIOUS allegations and given the amount of harm they could cause Andrew. Not a great idea to have this kind of discourse in public against a lawyer.

kalsuri

12 step is religious nonsense with the same recovery rate as spontaneous remission.

kalsuri

Think about Andrew's profession, think about how they use words to sway the audience. Now go re-read the apology from the bottom up, like a legal filing and tell me you think it's completely sincere...

Michael Rops

What does, "letting myself be coerced" look like from Andrew's perspective? I can't help but feel Andrew had almost no way of knowing people had any problems with his behavior until they went public with it. Where are the screenshots of people communicating with Andrew that they want him to stop?

kalsuri

I disagree. At least in my opinion, Andrew is uniquely good at translating legal analysis.

kalsuri

What do you mean he blocked his access to his source of income?

kalsuri

No, it's actually not. You pay per episode, but because you can set a limit it may appear monthly. I pulled my support thus my 'damage' this month is currently limited to only 1/4 my normal contribution each month.

Michael Rops

I feel like its important to raise my voice amidst all the mobbing. I hope Andrew sticks around and I am ashamed of the community for so eagerly grabbing pitchforks. We are all looking at this from the outside; I don't think Andrew is replaceable and I would rather see him follow through with his promises as opposed to casting him aside with no chance to share his perspective.

kalsuri

Thanks, Jim and Mark. Your comments perfectly summarize how I'm feeling about the possibility of OA continuing with Andrew.

Renee Z

I feel like Thomas's actions have been wholly inappropriate. The fact that this was sent to the court of public opinion first is crazy. I wouldn't blame Andrew for feeling like this was an attack.

kalsuri

You can also read the OA group, and there is a google drive link floating around where someone is collecting all the reports. There's actually additional accusations contained there that have not yet made it to the wider public.

Michael Rops

Definitely take legal advice from this podcast: I'm pretty sure that portion was mutual. And, the way I read this is that AT changed all the passwords, not Thomas. It's murky, but the balance of the evidence at this point seems to show that it was AT that did the lock out, had Thomas done it earlier, Andrew could not have posted this "apology..."

Michael Rops

Well, GCUPC, I think there were plenty of allegations even before that thing from Thomas about AT's drinking problem.

Michael Rops

You do realize that some of these women allege not just 'flirtatious messages' but also unwanted physical contact right?

Michael Rops

I listened to the apology this morning. I feel the same as I wrote last night. Only I'm including Thomas, if he sees it. I feel for whatever Is happening with him at this time. I'm grateful for his humor, all his work on OA that brought such a great show and the wonderful learning experience it was in my life. I admire how intelligent, funny and real a person he is. I hope he will be ok. My heart goes out to all of you, fully.

C’mon

On top of the obvious wrong that Andrew has done, this whole unfolding situation is so bizarre and unpleasant to be a part of. It made sense at first — people made allegations, people responded to them. Somehow we’ve progressed to a place of desperate podcasts from Thomas accusing Andrew of stealing the show before they’re quickly removed, replaced with episodes of Andrew bashing on Thomas and apologizing to his wife and kids for our benefit through oh-so-teary eyes. What is even happening any more? It feels like a pair of high schoolers are holding court for us. It’s exhausting and unprofessional and overall just ridiculous. I’m of course hoping for the best for everyone involved, but damn, I’m out of here. PS Andrew I hope you work on yourself and get better. I know you will, if you mean to. But for right now, a big fuck you for instigating all of this awfulness!

Ian Campbell

I enjoyed the show, especially during the last two years. But gonna pull my patreon donation until things settle down. I don't really have the emotional bandwidth to follow the details here in real time. I hope at the end of the day there will be an Opening Arguments podcast in some form or another, that can provide the legal analysis that I enjoyed, and I can return.

Wonking with Squatch

Still digesting this. But some things seem pretty clear. What does Andrew’s drinking problem have to do with apologizing to his victims, especially considering it’s the same line every single douche bag uses when they get caught? What does Andrew’s issue with Thomas have to do with apologizing to his victims? And what makes Andrew think he gets to judge and punish Thomas for his reaction and actions after being totally betrayed by Andrew? Andrew, I know you won’t read this, but your apology would have rung less hollow if you’d just apologized, and not spent half of it making excuses and deflecting.

Blaseking

So, I'm out. And andrew: If you genuinely do want to recover and try to be better. Do NOT continue this fucking podcast. You don't need the money, and don't let your ego trick you into thinking the world needs your voice. If you continue you will be left with only the worst, most toxic parts of the atheist community left to you. And that will squash any true growth and work you try to do. Just go away and work on yourself.

Taylor Putnam

It was a shit apology

Taylor Putnam

Andrew, thank you for a sincere apology, not the usual "sorry your offended" or "sorry I got caught" crap that we all too often get from others.

Torsten 'what the fluff' Pihl

I'm generally a lurker but have been a patron for years, though this will likely be my final post as I will be canceling my subscription unless Andrew steps aside. I'm so disappointed to see this happen to my favorite podcast, and even more disappointed in how Andrew has handled it. I hope Andrew does some serious self-reflection and gives some real, unconditional apologies to those he has hurt, including Thomas, rather than taking the easy route and following Matt Taibbi to Substack to complain about cancel culture. I do wonder how this will end for OA. As Andrew handled the legal aspects of OA, I imagine he holds the legal as well as the technical power over the LLC. OA could survive with Thomas and another legal personality like the many talented guests OA has featured over the years, but only if Andrew withdraws. Based on this 'apology' I don't see it being likely, but I can hope that Andrew will prove himself to be a better man than he has so far.

Constitutional hardball is the official sport of the Republican party

Andrew, I throw this out for your consideration. You might need to expand your comments from, 'I support Women,' to 'I support victims.' I am saying this because your response to Thomas was wholly inappropriate. You call Thomas out for ‘outing’ you for having a drinking problem, then you go on to imply that Thomas has a physical relationship with another man. These defensive comments do not lend credibility to your commitment self-reflection and improvement, they are comments made by someone that is deflecting from personal responsibility. As the perpetrator, I don’t think you get to question how Thomas felt in the moment, you really should accept it, and then include it in your list of things to ‘do better.’ As an aside, what I heard from Thomas was a guy trying to make sense of a bad situation, defend someone that had done something wrong to him, but still considered that someone a friend. Listening to him take the time to examine his own potential culpability in the situation is what a friend would do. I believe that most people with a shred of empathy found it painful to listen to as his pain was palpable. In the end he comes to the conclusion, ‘Andrew is a good guy except when he drinks too much.’ Lastly, Andrew if you read this. No one is perfect. I very much hope you can recover from this and find stability and happiness in your life. If there is an outcome where you do another show similar to OA, I hope that happens. I am going to miss how you made the law accessible and how I am a better-informed citizen.

Dan from Deerfield

Below, I put the only circumstance in which I would stay: If Andrew waives his right to sue Thomas. (Or does some other lawyerly thing that has the same effect.) Because right now, I'm sure that's what Thomas is scared of - that Andrew will find a way to sue him for defamation or breach of contract. Andrew is a very good lawyer. Thomas runs the risk of losing even if he's right. I told Andrew that at this point, we need more than words to feel safe - he has to actually reduce his power, not just promise not to use it. And to be frank, I'm sure that Thomas is emotionally a wreck right now, and I know that a binding promise not to sue will bring him some solace. I'd love it if you and others would join in pressing Andrew to make this commitment.

Stormy Decisis says visit sharebannedbooks.com

Annnnddd go fuck yourself, unsubscribed. Mightve hung around if not for this. Let's take this from the fucking start. You did not hold yourself accountable here. "I engaged in flirtatious and sexual interactions with several woman." No, you sexually harassed multiple women. If you're taking accountability, take fucking accountability. Mentioning alcohol at ALL here is a cop out. I'm an alcoholic/addict in recovery with 6 years clean& sober. If you're an alcoholic, that's your fucking problem. Go get help for it. You can admit that and *not* intrinsically tie it to allegations of sexual harassment or unwarranted touching. You have a LOT of balls to say that Thomas "publicly ousted you as having an issue with alcohol". That was abundantly clear from previous allegations. Weird as hell that you'd imply the relationship with Eli was more than playful, which is the vibe I had. And fucked up to say him making a statement detracts from other statements. Do the less extreme allegations from some women detract from the allegations that are more extreme from other women? And flat out denying something ever happened while discussing an alcohol problem is incredible. My abuser also denied anything happened. You know why? They were blacked out when it did. They didn't remember it. Though I will note that you didn't actually deny contact happened, just nonconsensual contact. Stop coopting the language of drug and alcohol recovery. Taking inventory, seeking treatment, ect ect. You didn't set the boundary to nit contact your victims, they did. You stating that you'll finally respect it doesn't mean shit. I genuinely hope you do seek treatment for the alcohol problem, bc as any addict or alcoholic knows, the alcohol isn't the problem. Its the solution, until it isn't. Recovery doesn't happen linearly, but another tip- typically, in any form of recovery, from AA to dharma to SMART to therapy to TCs- they'll tell you to *leave the fucking people you harmed alone* for a LONG time. No apologies. Not now. Your words mean nothing. And frankly, in this instance, they make it worse. Actions will have to speak. Over a very extended period of time. I really don't think I'm going to get over the implicit tie of your sexual behavior to alcoholism, so I doubt I'll be back ever. That's something recovery will teach you to deal with too- you don't get to decide how people deal with your amends, or if they ever accept them, not matter what you do or how bad you feel. Sorry for all of the people hurt in the wreckage here. Love to all of the victims, including your family. I recommend q support group for them. Recovery is a family journey if they choose to stay, just as active use is a family tragedy. Be safe and strong everyone.

Cassidy Rogers

This is what I've been thinking too. Thomas was afraid to say anything because he relies on Andrew for monetary support for his wife and kids. If Andrew wants to show good faith toward Thomas he needs to be helping him in that capacity.

Blue Gemini

I actually believe that you didn't consciously think about your actions at the time as wrong (or that you don't remember deliberately crossing boundaries due to the effects of alcohol). For me, to demonstrate your remorse instead of merely stating you're sorry, you need to do a minimum of two things: 1. Get past feeling angry, embarrassed, or whatever and do everything you can to help Thomas survive this financially. YOU set off a bomb in his life just after he took the leap and became reliant on podcasting, just as he was welcoming his third child. You have the luxury of an entire legal practice as a safety net. If you're really sorry for the harm you've caused, use your greater economic power to start minimizing further harm. (Yes, even if you think Thomas's statements are misleading or you disagree with some of his actions. He's been emotionally destroyed and his livelihood threatened due to a chain of events directly caused by bad choices you made.) 2. Set aside your ego and defensiveness and seek out a smart therapist who will challenge you and call you out when necessary. I'm sure you could easily settle in to a narrative where you have the disease of substance abuse and in a way you're really a victim, and people are being untruthful and mean about you publicly. And you can find therapists out there that will go along with that narrative. Have some courage and decency and resist that path. There are plenty of people who will never trust you or want to hear a word out of your mouth again, but if you selflessly pursue becoming better, you might eventually salvage some level of respect from the community.

Christine M

I need a support group this

One Smart Cookie™ cutters

Well said, I was thinking many of the same things.

Dan from Deerfield

He made Thomas uncomfortable, in addition to several other women, one of which claimed he engaged in non-consensual sexual activity. Odd that this is an example of throwing one under the bus.

AJ

There’s an entire Google file of evidence against Andrew.

AJ

You also don't get to say you're disappointed in one of the people to whom you're supposedly apologizing. How utterly self serving.

Mike Lilley

Best comment I’ve read.

A Sauce Packet

Man... its really over huh? Thanks for the memories but regardless of what happens next, even under ideal conditions it can never be the same.

Justin S.

Alison Gill is a Just Asking Questions BlueAnon booster who JUST tweeted that Musk is personally blocking the reach of her Twitter posts... she's the same person who fired her Daily Beans cohosts amidst a financial dispute that according to the former cohost, turned racial. She also blocks anyone that even politely pushes back on her conspiratorial tweets. It blows my mind how people boost her as if she isn't one of the most prominent disinfo-boosters on the left.

Justin S.

Andrew, you are a good man who doesn't need to pressure people to like you. You don't need to violate their boundaries, or try to get them to do things without their consent. Perhaps be grateful for the friendships you have with people to the extent they help create those friendships at whatever level you both are comfortable with. You aren't the only one to struggle with this, and help is available with honesty in therapy. I don't think it makes you a monster, but it does mean you have to take real ownership and make real change. I hope you can use the pain of this experience to make the hard changes that are necessary. By the way, it is on you to step up and help take care of Thomas. You got him into this. Period. I don't know if there is any appropriate direct way to make amends to the other people harmed by your actions, but I hope you do what you can. Having said all that, I also appreciate all the good you did along the way with this show. I believe people are complicated, and generally are not exclusively heroes or villains. Here's hoping your life gets better, for your sake, but also for the sake of those around you.

David Albertsen

This is all so sad. I just wanted to listen to a fun, informative podcast about the law and have supported this one financially for years. But who needs this drama? I have my own life to worry about. Unsubscribing with sadness in my heart.

Shep Bostin

Andrew, give Thomas control over the podcast, do the other things you said you are going to do wrt therapy and whatnot. It’s good that you’re owning up to your transgressions (even though it sounds a little hollow, idk how anyone can make it not sound that way), but the way you talk about Thomas is unacceptable and now also requires you to own up to that as well. Being friends with him for as long as you were, you know his mental processes and how the statements you made will affect him, yet you made them anyways. I can’t tell if Andrew is hurt by Thomas’s revelations and is lashing out or if this is a pattern of abuse. I suspect that it’s abusive, but Andrew's actions from here will reveal it. I believe in redemption and second chances, but your actions have to earn it. Apologizing and working on yourself isn’t enough. You have to take restorative acts with the victims firstly, with Thomas and others you work with, your family and with us. Actions, not words. Actions that affect us (all listed above), not just you.

Ryan

we all tell our own internal stories about who we are and they are very real, to us. in his own story that is who andrew is, and in a lot of ways he has acted this out - his 600+ episodes of talking the talk, the support they set up for people on the wrong end of the dobbs decision. those things add up to a man who seeks to be a champion of liberal causes. of women, of trans people. the reality, which he has not yet digested and may not if he isn't forced to do so, is that our internal stories are sometimes derailed and undermined by our weaknesses. in his case those appear to be beer and a tendency to go way past social boundaries when drunk. i think andrew is in denial right now as the two narratives conflict. he has to square the dissonance that he had behaved badly with women, with a cohost, with his family to the image he has of himself inside, that's not going to be easy in any circumstances, less so with all of us watching. if he is the man he seems to want to be he'll accept the problems and seek to address them. if his demons win he'll go into tower defence mode and try to bring everything down with him. sometimes our heroes have feet of clay and in the internet age we sometimes get to find out in real time. a very long way around to saying i don't think he was pretending i just think people can be more than one thing. the person with perfect ideals and the flawed person they actually are. life is messy and complicated like that. i support the victims here, i've been on the receiving end of abuse and i know ho it can f*** with your head and your sense of self but it's never as simple good vs bad as we'd like it to be.

Tom Pegg

what are talking about text message only ?

Pierre

The fact that PIAT posted Tomas SIO clip makes me think that Eli doesn't have a problem with it I could be wrong but.... I was going to continue to support OA if Andrew step away but after hearing this I am canceling my Patron membership. As a person that has had dealings with substance abuse people this felt like a CYA. Please go get help Andrew and understand why as a community we cant trust you any longer.

syngen T grede

Andrew. Please don't go full Dersh. Please. There's so much good you can do in the world. Please listen to people who care about you and want to see you be well. There's good in you Andrew. Please don't do this.

Crazy Animal Lady

It is. It suddenly turned into high school finger pointing hour. After sleeping on it, though, I do want to temper my comments a little. Opening Arguments really helped me get through the Trump presidency. It helped to energize me to get up and go knock on doors and distribute literature for my local Democratic candidates. It entertained me and informed me and helped me to inform others. My heart goes out to Andrew's victims, and I am moving on from Opening Arguments because it has clearly become another center of internet toxicity. But I really hope Andrew gets some help (and seems to me that alcohol might just be the symptom, not disease here-but what do I know?). And I feel really bad for Thomas, who just had his livelihood undermined by Andrew's conduct, so I can understand his acting out online, as embarrassing as it is to watch. So, God bless.

David Blakeley

Yes. It seems there’s not a lot of crossover between OA listeners and DOD but if you listen to the latter, you’ll understand Thomas’ distress a bit more. Legal and financial issues aside, not being allowed to access any - let alone complex - emotions as a child into young adulthood makes navigating this type of upheaval difficult.

Hi, I'm white lady.

I'm doubling my SIO and Dear Old Dads support and cancelling this one. A big fuck you to Andrew for ruining my favourite thing to listen to. I hope you get the help you need and that I never hear from you again.

Sam Johnson

"I support women" No Sir.. you do not. You feign support as an act to increase numbers and groom. All part of an agenda. I hope you realize this in therapy.

GearHeadDet

There is a lot of proof on Facebook. This has been playing out on social media, so many know a lot more than just this apology.

Lisa S

I feel blindsided in the sense I literally had *no* idea this was a topic since at least Feb. 1 if not earlier. And also just...sad. I liked this podcast. I liked Andrew's persona. Now I feel like I'm mourning a death

Rachel J Larris

Goodbye from the Hereford Zone. Get your shit together, Andrew. Give Thomas the show and walk the fuck away.

Kelly Taylor

Thanks for sharing. I was dreading not knowing what to listen to this morning on my commute 💕

IS SHE TALKING ABOUT ME

Not really, Thomas said that he’s just occasionally flirty with Eli, and that they have a more physical rapport. Even the word flirty was kind of walked back, and he was talking about how that it would be part of a joke.

Lawn in order

By the way, for U.S. law, this community has lots of great options for podcasters. OA was above all the rest on my list of favourites, but it seems incomprehensible to me that it can continue. I liked the suggestion someone had made that Thomas continue with Liz Dye and/or Morgan - that would have been the best. But it sadly won't happen unless Andrew has some sincere moment of clarity about Thomas (ie let Thomas take over this podcast while he works on himself, as it seemed like would happen early on). So, I hope some in this community will migrate along with me to places like: Cafe Insider (Preet and Joyce Vance) Sisters in law (Joyce, Barb McQuade, Jill Wine-Banks, Kim Atkins stohr) Talking Feds (Harry Litman and friends) It's complicated (Renato Mariotti and Asha Rangappa) And of course all the Allison Gill podcasts. (Pete Strzok joining her on 45!); The community impact is a thing I took for granted. Most of you are amazing and I enjoyed reading your analyses and seeing you on the Q&As. We didn't know each other IRL but I do hope to see your voices elsewhere.

bella ciao

You admit you don't know what happened, assume it should be a private matter, and admit you don't care about what happened. But we're the judgemental ones for reacting to that thing you know nothing about? Got it.

Sam Johnson

Grow up. There are so many narcissistic people here demanding apologies that weren’t directly part of any of the behavior. It’s sickening.

Kevin Twomey

If he threw him under the bus it was just after being thrown under the bus.

Kevin Twomey

I liked the show while it lasted ✌️

X Y V

X Y V

That exact thought went through my mind

Allan Juhl

Wow, I have never seen such a bunch of judgemental people in one place in my life. One would expect that fans of a law podcast would understand the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty'. I don't know what happened and neither do any of you. What I do know is whatever happened with Thomas could, and should, have been handled privately. If something made him uncomfortable then he should have said so....to Andrew....not to ME! And not to hundreds of others. I enjoy the podcast so I will stay and hope things work out. I don't need to know how it works out or what anyone's relationship is with their co-host. I'm here to be entertained. That's it. Nothing else. I'm selfish that way.

Kristy Parrish

Dustin the gay atheist black sheep of the family Baez

Self-care is knowing when to stop listening to this nonsense statement. As soon as "I'm disappointed in Thomas..." cane out, I was done. Be disappointed in yourself, buddy. And maybe do better.

That Julia Person

Dude, I hope you get the help you so clearly need but I’m absolutely fucking shocked you’re not stepping away from the show. This show is part of a community that strives to treat people with respect and hold people to account when they don’t and there’s absolutely no way I’m listening to what used to be my favorite show if you’re still involved in any way. I suspect I’m not alone. Frankly if the vast majority of your listeners don’t abandon you I drastically misunderstood this community.

The Fallacious Trump Podcast

Well, that is the most disappointingly hollow apology I've heard in a while. I get that Thomas may have acted mainly through emotion at some points, but that's exactly the good thing that he brought to the show when Andrew was just "dealing them facts" or whatever the fuck cold lawyerly Harvard bullshit. Andrew's unwillingness to own up to the inappropriate interaction with Thomas really makes this whole "apology" sound like exactly that – cold lawyerly Harvard bullshit. And it's perpetuating the myth that (sexually) inappropriate behavior between men (or any other combination of genders that isn't just man-woman) doesn't need to be taken that seriously. I really find it despicable the way Andrew is misconstruing Thomas' statement on SIO. Not only does he deny the allegations (despite admittedly having an alcohol problem, which usually negatively affects memory formation and retention), but he weirdly seems to imply that Thomas and Eli has some kind of beyond-friendship relationship, and then goes on to say that he is "disappointed that Thomas would out that close friend without his explicit permission". Excuse me, what? That seems to me to be a wholly disingenuous interpretation of Thomas' statement, if not outright manipulative. It's also baffling (and inexcusable) to me that Andrew would think that he can just take over the OA podcast and continue on. No, the show mustn't go on, dipshit. You've clearly shown through your actions that you are not capable of responsibly wielding the power that your voice in this community has. The Andrew I thought I knew through the podcast would know to step down, or at the very least argue that both sides should step down from OA and continue their separate ways. Instead I am increasingly worried that Andrew will try to fuck over Thomas through every conceivable legal avenue. If he waived his rights to sue Thomas, that might have been slightly reassuring, but that's just a wishful fantasy at this point. As a small side note, I found it rather obvious that Andrew seemed to have a drinking problem. It shone through in a few comments here and there during the show and/or livestreams. Seems to be not all that uncommon in the legal profession. Though that of course shouldn't absolve Andrew of the consequences. I am so incredibly and deeply disappointed, but this non-apology really made some things click into place. Certainly not in Andrew's favour.

creepy thieves r the worst

I am a firm believer that there must always be a pathway to rehabilitation. This case is no exception. I wish you well on the road to recovery and hope you can find a way to make amends to those who have been hurt. I'm not sure anyone knows what that looks like right now, but think long and hard about it.

TritonXXXG

I haven't listened to the apology, yet. I will. I'm looking instead at the comments. I guess I can't find that in me. I get the gist of what happened, and why. I understand the complexity and damage to all the people involved. It's not to minimize that. It's because in the end, we're all fucking human. if you mean your apology, if you really get it, it's not the end. If it's alcohol, it will be hard, but you aren't the first. I see you as a person who cares, I still believe that. You have friends and family who also care. I sincerely hope you do the best for them, and those you hurt. I believe you will (for what that's worth). I'm planning to continue to support OA (and Clean Up etc) Its a gift of understanding I can't otherwise replace. I hope you make it through, Andrew Torrez.

C’mon

What's missing from Andrew's statement, and what makes it seem rather disingenuous is that Thomas has been cut out from all access to the Patreon account, and his previous post has been removed. There is much more info in the Facebook group (of which Andrew is no longer a member).

EwgB

Your argument has merit, but the underlying problem here (assuming we take all parties at their word) is power. Andrew is not just a lawyer. He is an exceptionally erudite, exacting, well read and careful lawyer who is competent in a crisis. He has the presence of mind to make smart and careful decisions about what he does next, and he has his legal knowledge to back him up when he makes claims. Thomas is... frankly he seems to be in an emotional spiral. He is not acting rationally. Should he be punished for his irrational behavior? Sure. Looking at the power imbalance here, I don't think anything needs to be done to help that along, however. Frankly... while I don't think Andrew is under any legal obligation to help out Thomas in his time of need here, I do think Andrew being in power and being of sound mind means he needs to help Thomas out.

Alex The Apologetic (that his name is too long)

Strong agreement on this right now given what we have seen.

Alex The Apologetic (that his name is too long)

Remains to be seen. Both of them have indicated they want the show to continue, but almost certainly not with both of them. Joint ownership makes this very tricky.

Shrooom!

This isn't an apology. I'm not posting this for Andrew but to anyone reading these comments who might need to be aware of this. Andrew isn't ready to hear this. He might be someday. As a survivor of abuse in a relationship with somone using alcohol, one thing I decided was that the drinking isn't the problem or cause, they were. When you drink and it alters your behaviour or attitude in the moment, it passes. In sobriety, you know what you've done. Maybe it's awful, maybe it's just rude. If you know you have seriously crossed a line, you're facing a choice. Andrew knew what he was doing and the pattern of what he said and did never changed. He may have an addiction and earnestly now recognise the destructive behaviour. But that's actually irrelevant here. Alcohol is sometimes used by abusive people to pre-empt behaviour they know will upset or even threaten others. It can be, to a lesser or greater degree of consciousness, part of the arsenal. Unless you experience this maybe you won't get it. I know the alcohol meant I forgave, I forgot, I tried to fix things. My partner saw what they did to me like they saw they could work and function like an adult. As a listener of this podcast, and a contributor to their patreon, you deserved an apology that recognised the position Andrew put you in. If Andrew wants to talk about alcohol and the allegations, it's definitely part he can include, but not in a bid for sympathy and understanding. We don't have to listen to that. He can't apologise for behaviour without admitting to the behaviour and the behaviour is the problem. If he admits to it, he's liable. He can't call people liars but he has muddied the water. I hope he recovers. Some of the most beautiful people are those who faced their own demons and recovered. But that's not him right now.

Lala Del Bray

@DTLAFTP Charone Frankel has alleged that he repeatedly groped her and "aggressively initiated intimacy". (The latter within a consensual sexual relationship, but nonetheless possibly rising to sexual assault.)

Shrooom!

Alcohol has a way of actualizing bad possibilities. If you’re a good person though effort rather than by nature, staying sober is probably a good idea. Best of luck on your treatment, I believe you when you say you want to do better. Hopefully you’ll be able to rebuild most of what you’ve damaged recently.

Kelvin, like the temperature.

Move on and allow Thomas to find another lawyer.

AJ

There is no way back for him here, he is simply burning the house out of spite aginest his co-host, everyone have dropped him after this.

Jonas Ljungberg

Let's remember that he (Andrew) is the abuser here not the victim, he is also the one who locked out his co-host for posting about an problematic interaction that clearly hurt him.

Jonas Ljungberg

There are texts that Thomas shared online, from the time, to his wife showing he was uneasy about how AT had touched him.

Donna W (uk listener)

Yes, I’m sure many in Andrew’s audience figured out the drinking thing long ago. Another high-performing lawyer with an alcohol problem.

Blurry fingers

All of us financially supported the show. It is quite literally our business.

Shrooom!

@Caleb Benningfield The amount of nuance that you fail to grasp is staggering.

Shrooom!

This show grew out of SIO, and I’ve always assumed it was Thomas’s show. He can find another lawyer. They’re a dime a dozen.

AJ

I am disappointed by the comments here. Not surprised, mind you, just disappointed. It’s easy to attack the accused, never acknowledging the humanity of the actor of the wrongdoing, alleged or acknowledged. Glass houses none of which are inhabited. I’m sad of the art lost because the artist was imperfect and of the time in which we live where the transgressions of the artist are the end of the discussion. If you think we should lose the voices heretofore employed and let the disengenious own the conversation despite our all too human defects, then give up now and accept your fate as they propound. Ignorance may be bliss, but it isn’t a path to justice. Cancellation isn’t progress.

Tyrrell Prosser

Wish you a speedy recovery Andrew. Hope you can succeed where I didn't. Greetings from an alcoholic rape survivor.

Elbrasch

They guy who has left more comments than anyone else is telling others to get a hobby.

AJ

Withdrawing my Patreon support until Thomas is able to continue OA with a new co-host. Stepping back from fan interactions isn’t sufficient Andrew, I’m sorry.

Timothy Frewin

Caleb continuing his tantrum.

AJ

Caleb, we get it; you don’t respect boundaries, and you strawman legitimate criticism of your hero. Dry your tears.

AJ

Oh, Andrew... I'm so disappointed in you. Even since Wednesday, and even since this morning I've been rooting for you. It all seemed so bad, but I really hoped that you could have a wake up call, and turn yourself around. You failed to live up to your supposed values, but that's not irredeemable. I really hoped you could take some time, get some help, make amends, and come back stronger. I'm no longer thinking that can happen. I really hope I'm wrong. Your two statements have really swung wide of the mark. You're coming across defensive and tone deaf. You're hurting, and taking shots at people who don't deserve it. From opening your first statement with comments about litigation against the news network that broke the AA story, to this apology with it's aspersions of Thomas, and a drive by on Eli, I'm sorry, "a mutual friend". This isn't what any of us were hoping to see. It's sad, and more than a little pathetic. I know you must be hurting, and feeling awfully alone. I'm really sorry for that. I know what it's like to fuck up and feel isolated, and know it's your own fault. It's awful. I'm angry with you, but I'm also empathetic to some degree for how you must be feeling. I really hope you can turn this around. I hope you can bow out gracefully like you seem to have done from Cleanup. I hope you can take responsibility, get the help you need, and be able to have an amazing next act. I suppose I still really am rooting for you, but so far your response has made it harder at every turn. It will take a lot to win back this listener's trust.

Twas Brillig And The Slithy Toves Did Gyre And Gimble In The Wabe All Mimsy Were The Borogoves And The Mome Raths Outgabe

I'd check if you were charged for this "apology" if you don't have a monthly limit set...

CmdrPherret

Top notch victim blaming right here. Slow clap to you...

CmdrPherret

Sorry having known substanse abusers and abusers in general i know the playbook his response to this situation is spot on, find people to blame and make sure others can't contradict him.

Jonas Ljungberg

No it wont, he have behaved beond the pale...

Jonas Ljungberg

Andrew. I understand your reasons for cutting Thomas off from access to the podcast and it's associated public forums. He is struggling to deal with your actions. I understand he's made things public that you would prefer that he hadn't. Your comments in statement betray your anger at this. I understand this. But can not condone your comments towards Thomas. Emotions are high, but I hope you can deal with this both in a professional manner, and with the compassion you know Thomas deserves. I expect that OA is currently dead. Which is disappointing. I was expecting that Thomas could continue to host this with Liz Dye and Morgan Stringer while you processed your personal issues. As this is unlikely to happen, I'll be moving my small Patreon support to go to another place where it may be more useful. I wish you both the best going forward. You both have your own separate road to recovery. Jared.

Jared Bradley

I appreciate the candor, but I hope you understand why I am going to withhold my financial support of this podcast, effective immediately. I hope all wrongs will be righted and all wounds healed.

Narglefargle R. Uglyhead

Swing and a miss.

Richard Murray

Probably should. It might influence how you see things.

Jordan Wages

Ditto!

NSaneAtheist

Oh fuck!

NSaneAtheist

Fun legal fact for you legally work out in means jack shit to how a partnership distributes revenue and earning unless the their formation docs specifically say otherwise P/L are an even fucking split so no even if he did do more work he is not entitled to stealing the comp

Kain

Judging by the comment i will NOT even listen to this

Jonas Ljungberg

I'm going to continue supporting the podcast for now - its a truly great one, my absolute favorite - and I remain reluctantly hopeful that it can carry on in some way. I honestly understand peoples outrage but people need to take a deep breath and not jump to a million conclusions immediately about the whole Thomas vs Andrew thing ... you don't know all the details of the whole situation and sometimes its OK to let things unfold. BTW did anyone else listen to the First Mondays law podcast a few years before this? This seems like some ridiculous unfortunate Deja Vu

Lucas S

Greg, 100%. Re the comment: Thomas accused Andrew of touching him inappropriately. Andrew accused thomas using his experience to distract from the women's claims. Thomas is every bit entitled to feel how he felt about Andrew touching him. One of these has legitimacy. The other is acting like an arsonist. That is all to say that it's clear Andrew is not ready to apologize. There's a reason why making amends is step 9 in a 12 step program. It takes time before people have the ability and humility to unreservedly apologize.

CutePhoton

Andrew, I don't know what to think. I am still recovering from alcoholism and your podcast helped me as my world spiraled out of control. I wish you the best, I hope you can be forgiven. I still don't know what's appropriate in this situation but I hope you can find the strength to right your wrongs. I have plenty of regrets and I fear paying some of them. Have faith in humanity and faith in yourself. That and therapy helped me heal. Thank you for everything. I hope to hear you nerd out on the law.

Fame and fortune guaranteed in the state of Tintucky

This may be your podcast, but having an audience is a privilege. For the sake of Thomas and the audience, you gotta detach yourself from the show. It is abundantly clear that you're too early on in this process to understand why your response misses the mark. You're still deflecting and can't just own your shit without casting aspersions elsewhere. There's going to be a whole lot of sitting with and processing discomfort before you're ready to truly apologize to anybody. When you do the self work, there is a time and a place to discuss what role, if any, you should have here. It's probably somewhere else. I wish you all the best. Btw, it was abundantly clear that you had a substance use disorder before Thomas every said the words out loud. And also... I stopped hanging out and drinking with my neighbour because he touched me like you touched Thomas. He also did it to my ex. It made me deeply uncomfortable. So yes, Thomas should be empowered to also call you out on how you made him feel.

CutePhoton

Thomas sure did a good job redirecting attention away from his own failings and categorizing himself as another victim of Andrew. Seems to have worked… IMHO, these guys are both outing themselves as complete assholes. Two “friends” who were very quick to throw each other under the bus when the twitter mob came knocking.

Mike G

I wouldn’t count on it. Thomas is already over in the facebook group calling Andrew a “fucking dirtbag”

Mike G

My thoughts exactly. It’s incredible how quickly these two were willing to throw each other under the bus, and it’s quite embarrassing to watch.

Mike G

Andrew, why are you posting an apology to this feed at all? I expect I would have been one of many in this community to wish you well in seeking help and maybe eventually stay for your return. Particularly were your business partner to be posting that you were stepping away, and air your statement. As important as you are to OA, we weren't just *your* patrons. But I can't help now feeling like your post today is just another symptom of possessiveness and a deep problem. I hear some pain in your apology, and some remorse, I want you to be the better human you are capable of being. But that can't square with you lawyering up the business to mitigate the potential repercussions on yourself from actions you claim to deeply regret. Please get help, give space to the victims, walk away for as long as it takes for healing--knowing that could be forever.

No More President Fraud

Don't understand why Thomas has the right to go on a face-saving offensive against Andrew for allegations that he, Thomas, downplayed in private for 5 years, and then continue to "feed his family" off of a production for which Andrew generated 95% of the content.

Embrace the chaos

This is a total shit show. I’m grateful at the people — esp men — in this thread holding Andrew accountable. I so rarely see this IRl

Lisa Richter

Thomas started the self-preservation offensive against Andrew first. This was after it went public that Thomas was aware of the accusations ahead of time and downplayed them in private. Andrew obviously has a lot to apologize for, but I don't know why we expect him to step aside and hand over a show for which he provided 95% of the content.

Embrace the chaos

Yes. He ruined it with that grenade attack in the middle. Anti-disparagement clauses aren’t just good for legal documents, they are good for life. I was in a business partnership that went to the brink but somehow we both had the sense not to disparage each other during the fight. We resolved our differences and went on to have a successful business together for 10 more years that set us up for life. We are glad of the many things we didn’t say to each other in the heat of emotion.

Blurry fingers

Hitting on women and being cringe is problematic, but not against the law. Maybe there's more out there, but so far that's what we've seen.

Embrace the chaos

Andrew, I want you to know that I believe what you're saying. I believe you're genuinely contrite about your actions, I believe that you're seeking a path to recovery for your issues, and I believe that you earnestly believe that you never assaulted your cohost. I believe Thomas too. I believe that he is genuinely emotionally distraught and frustrated, that he remembers an incident where you approached him and touched him more intimately than he is comfortable with, and that he tried to reach an amicable solution with you for the future of Opening Arguments. So given that I believe the both of you, what conclusion shall I draw? It is a fact that you have crossed boundaries with and harassed multiple people while you were in a position of power over them, despite your claims of progressiveness and expressed desire of combating harmful power structures. It is a fact that you are speaking with the official OA accounts while Thomas has claimed his access has been locked out, despite the fact that the worst thing he is currently accused of is complicity with YOUR sexual harassment and outing you as an alcoholic. And as part of your public apology, you're expressing your interest in maintaining your presence on a continued OA, where I can only conclude that you've resolved to do without Thomas. You do not deserve to continue OA, Andrew. You have proven yourself unable to responsibly handle the power that comes with your voice in the community you've built. And I assure you, YOU are the one coming off worst here, even with your words taken at face value. I'm going to mourn this podcast. There's not going to be one that can quite fill the void that it leaves. And that includes a future OA, if you do continue on with it without Thomas. Real contriteness would be to leave OA behind you. You are no longer worthy of the privileges that come with hosting it. Stop podcasting, continue a modest and competent law firm for small businesses, and don't darken our doorstep ever again.

Stephanie Fawaz

Thomas and Andrew have both revealed themselves pretty thoroughly in this. I'm done with both of them. This is pathetic.

David Blakeley

Thomas went after him first. How do people not understand that?

Embrace the chaos

The context is that Thomas got called out for being aware of Andrew's conduct for years and then tried to frame himself as a victim of Andrew's sexual harassment based on a 2021 text conversation with his wife where he describes Andrew touching him in slightly uncomfortable ways, but calls it "nothing terrible" and "slightly borderline". Thomas then immediately admits to initiating identical behavior with his other friends. Thomas clearly didn't think it was a serious issue at the time, even acknowledging the context of other rumors about Andrew. Andrew is understandably annoyed that Thomas is trying to rewrite history to make himself sympathetic and pile onto Andrew. That's where this came from. The Eli stuff didn't belong in Andrew's statement though.

Embrace the chaos

Yes.

Blurry fingers

Andrew, the road to recovery and the road to rehabilitation are parallel, but they aren't the same thing. My heart is broken. Hypocrisy corrodes all. I too must cut ties.

Gerald Lott

Not sure why Thomas has an unassailable right to make a living off of a show for which, by Thomas's own frequent admission, Andrew provides all of the expertise and generates nearly all of the content. Thomas's role as an interviewer and editor was critical too, but there is no OA without Andrew, and there's no reason why he should hand over the keys.

Embrace the chaos

Says they guy hype-manning for AT all over this thread

Ian from wine country

Fuck you Andrew, you goddamn up jumped groupie. I wanted to hear you out. But to start with “I’m guilty of being creepy online.”…are you fucking serious clown??? You’re not being accused of being creepy fool. You’re being accused of borderline sexual assault (not even that borderline) and repeatedly harassing women who were crystal fucking clear with you. And now you have the audacity to throw Thomas under the bus? Thomas made you. You were a David Smalley reply guy with a law degree. I believe in second chances. Hell, third or fourth chances. But it’s pretty fucking clear you’re only focus is to cover your ass. Maybe you can find someone else to co-host your show, it could buy you another con or two, creep.

Ben

It sounds like Thomas was the first to take steps to eliminate Andrew from OA. He announced Andrew "stepping away" and a plan to continue without him. Given that Andrew generated ~95% of the content for the show it seems reasonable and "fair" for Andrew to also defend his own property.

Embrace the chaos

Thomas's own recounting at the time was that it wasn't a big deal ("nothing terrible", "slightly borderline"), and that he behaved the same way to Eli, and that maybe he should reflect on that. He also acknowledged in those screenshots that he was aware of issues with Andrew. He only saw fit to do something about it or to frame himself as a "victim" when he was getting accused of being complicit. So I'm not sure what it means for "the balance of the evidence to be with Thomas", when Thomas's own direct evidence doesn't back his new framing. The Thomas/Eli thing doesn't belong in Andrew's statement though.

Embrace the chaos

I wish I could put into words what I feel. Andrew, for all the shit you've talked about people doing exactly what you have admitted to. Jesus. What in the actual fuck. I hope you get the help you need.

GeneralLedger

Yeah, I thought Thomas framing himself as a victim was cynical and a real reach since he clearly didn't see himself as a victim at the time per his own words. And he also reflected on behaving the same way towards Eli. But yeah, it seems really likely that the Thomas/Eli thing is totally benign, and it doesn't seem at all relevant here. "Bank shot" is the right term.

Embrace the chaos

The audio was heartbreaking. Unless I’m misremembering, the only reference to Eli was that Thomas worried if maybe in the past his touch could have been misinterpreted and/or offensive during his interactions with Eli - the same way Andrew made him feel.

IS SHE TALKING ABOUT ME

yikes.gif I see what you're doing, and I get it. But it's wrong, and I don't like it. I'm glad to hear you are seeking help, and I hope you mean it. Do better

Brett ''Antifascism IS Patriotism'' Hatch

Had he left Thomas out of this statement, i think it would have been a decent one. But he went after Thomas and hid behind victims to do it

WhySatan

I believe that Andrew is sorry and feels sorry, and I also know that it can hurt to be outed as having a substance abuse problem, but I also feel that Thomas deserves an apology in order for Opening Arguments to survive. Even were I not to believe Thomas when he says that he was touched inappropriately—and I do believe Thomas just as I believe all the women who've come forward—Andrew's unethical behaviour, performed while a member of the Opening Arguments podcast, hurt his co-worker and business partner. Thomas's statements in no way "detract" from the women who are victims, rather, his voice simply joins theirs, no more, no less. Tonight I'm adding a pledge to Serious Inquiries Only. If Thomas does not return to Opening Arguments—and at this point it seems like that bridge has been set alight; that's ultimately Thomas's call—I'll cancel my OA pledge before the month's up.

Peter Kyrouac

‪This is nothing but proof of your manipulation and lack of character. You deny an unwanted touch of Thomas. YOU DON’T GET TO SAY IT WASN’T UNWANTED.‬ Unless you’re claiming he was lying in the actual past when he told his actual wife or that he doctored the actual messages. I’m ashamed to have admired you.

A master Satanist is never to be taken lightly

No no you don't hide behind victims to tell Thomas whether or not he felt uncomfortable. Had you NOT gone after Thomas I would have felt okay maybe you are sorry about this, but going after Thomas and hiding behind victims is a total what the fuck

WhySatan

A good apology is an unequivocal apology. This was neither. Also: Fuck you for going after Thomas.

Greg0692

It does add more to it and nothing that made Andrew look good but nether was Thomas attacking Andrew in thr audio.

WhySatan

Ok whatever. I’m glad I’m not a friend of you.

Kevin Twomey

Andrew will continue to try to cheat on his wife through OA. He will also non apologize and pretend he loves his family despite proving who he is. He lied in his oath to his family. The man has no honor

Dr. Chazz Fazzledopenhoffer

Dead on.

Dr. Chazz Fazzledopenhoffer

He's not. He's dershowitz protege after all

Dr. Chazz Fazzledopenhoffer

Andrew, I know there are lots who want to throw you to the curb but I’m not so easy to do that. Know that there are some that will support you if you are sincere

Kevin Twomey

Apparently Andrew locked Thomas out of everything https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenArgs/comments/10vlaa7/andrew_is_stealing_everything_and_has_locked_me/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

IS SHE TALKING ABOUT ME

I wish the best for all concerned. If Thomas has sole control of OA and allowed this response, he deserves respect for airing it. I think this community probably has more stringent standards for forgiveness than some religious groups. I hope all those effected can be healed and restored.

Not Ketchup Banksy

The part about Eli felt like a real bank-shot of a way to out someone in revenge while covering your ass by saying it was someone else putting him. I only read Thomas’ message, maybe the audio contained further details but I hadn’t seen anyone mention this so I doubt it.

nkwiw

Five days with literally nothing posted about it here to the patrons including around the last episode drop has been an interesting choice

Chris Conley

Andrew, you're a real slimy piece of shit just like the man who taught you, it's no surprise.

Dr. Chazz Fazzledopenhoffer

This 1000% this

Jason Coughenour

As an adult man who drinks way more than my doctor would like and has terrible social skills, I've never had 6 women approach my friends about my behavior making them uncomfortable.

Minilla

Damn it Andrew, I was really trying to help you with my first comment, thought maybe blackouts hadn't occurred to you. Waive the right to sue Thomas Smith. Or sell it to me for a dollar or something. We're all working from the assumption that you have the upper hand of it comes to a lawsuit. As long as there's the threat of a lawsuit, Thomas isnt free to act because whether he's right or wrong, he doesn't have the money to fight you in court. We're past the point where we can feel confident if you just say you won't use that power. Right now, I won't believe it without evidence, not just nice cheap words. Give me a reason to believe that you're not going to try to throw your weight around. You have a lot of power here and I'm going to need some evidence that you are committed to not abusing it. I really liked you. Live up to the faith I had in you.

Stormy Decisis says visit sharebannedbooks.com

I just wanted to comment to say I appreciate your Patreon handle

IS SHE TALKING ABOUT ME

You’re a true protege of Derschowitz, Andrew.

James K

Andrew, you need to answer the questions of your community: have you locked Thomas out?

No Moore Alabama

I’m not mad at you you, Andrew. I know alcohol and will keep following you, Thomas, Allison and all the voices that have helped open my heart and mind during these turbulent times. Get well. Feel better and forgive yourself.

fran reichenbach

That was bullshit Andrew. End of the line for me.

CmdrPherret

The issue with Thomas and it's handling here leaves me perturbed. The balance of the evidence seems to be with Thomas. But why would Andrew deny with such intensity, it there was any chance it was true? I feel like there is something we are still missing. The rest of this is what I had set as my conditions to keep subscribing, possibly at a reduced level. I can see that Andrew and Thomas can't do the show together any more. And given that, it logically has to go to Andrew, or stop. The show, and Andrew's analysis, have immense value. I was proud to be in the top quartile of names. But I'm not sure I stay with this outstanding. Certainly not at the name-reading level. I need to know that Thomas is being given fair treatment, both personally and financially. With no episodes for the time being, and therefore no payments, I can put off a firm decision a little while longer.

ADHDProgrammer

Thomas has stated elsewhere that he no longer has access to OA Patreon (or other) accounts. You can find him at Serious Inquiries Only podcast.

Lisa S

Oops Jim is my hubby shared accounts and all.

James Esh

FWIW Stormy, I see your comment (currently 43 hearts) and GCUPC's reply above. And Patreon's comments seem to have been functioning somewhat below their already low standards for the last few days.

Jason Coughenour

Chronic pain sent me into a terrible place with alcohol. A great 30 day program and a loving family put me straight but what really got me there was a book about the physical effects of drinking . Please get the help you need then rethink any decisions about life going forward.

James Esh

Andrew, your comments about Thomas were odd and felt out of place…. The rest of your apology was needed and I was glad to hear it. I’m not sure how you move forward from here. I hope you can. Thomas, thank you for being open and willing to put yourself out there. I hope you’ll be okay.

Satanmat

So what is the status of OA? Is it going forward with Thomas? With Andrew? Is it being killed off? I feel bad for all involved and will not voice an opinion on what I think about all this, but just hope that OA continues.

Brian Von Wert

What you've done to Thomas is disgusting & unforgivable. You'll cop to and apologize for your sexual harassment of women, but QUEER harassment is a bridge too far?? How fucking dare you! Whether you intentionally touched Thomas inappropriately or not doesn't matter. Whether Thomas is queer or bisexual or not doesn't matter. He *obviously* felt a line had been crossed in a professional relationship with an unequal power dynamic, and then you *exercised* that power by blocking his access to his source of income, effectively firing him! I hope he sues you into oblivion.

Sil

I want to unknow all of this. It's none of my fucking business.people need to grow the fuxk up. stop getting drunk and doing stupid things. Keep your hands to yourself. And if someone makes you feel uncomfortable then FFS let them know it immediately! Punch them in the face if you have to. Have we not learned anything? Jesus fucking christ this is why we can't have nice things. Live by the social media die by the social media. Fuck this. I'm out.

One Smart Cookie™ cutters

You are not in any position to throw shade at Thomas regardless of how angry you are with him or how ill-advised his statements were. This show wouldn’t exist without him, it’s the job that feeds his family, and it kinda seems like you intend to fuck him out of it. I don’t care what contract you’ve got; the only way I’ll stay a patron is if you give Thomas VERY generous terms, or otherwise somehow manage to keep going together.

Jephalopod

That was an attorney covering his ass while getting his digs in…. Not a human with a soul. Disappointing.

GearHeadDet

go to hell

General Contact Unit Problem Child

Thomas has always appeared to be hasty and emotive. While, I suspect, sincere in his expression of raw emotion, Thomas is rendering himself vulnerable in every way. Regardless of the serious blame owed Andrew, he is apparently being tactical while Thomas is oversharing in a manic spiral. For his own sake, Thomas needs to get legal counsel and STFU.

Tom Lutes

Andrew patreon is monthly, so I'm going to hang around till the end of the months to see how badly you fuck this up, then I'm gone

General Contact Unit Problem Child

The student has become the master. Andrew Torrez is Alan Dershowitz.

Rohan Mehta

I didn't take the time to listen to it, I had a bot transcribe it because I had a feeling it was going to be a Harvard apology and it looks like I was right. That statement about publicly outing someone with an alcohol problem is manipulative and speaks of a lack of remorse. You need to commit fully to recovery or it will not work. Take time away and get real help from a sponsor or 12 step program or therapist in an addiction recovery setting. Don't Ted Cruz this.

Galaar

Especially with Andrew's previous statement that he was stepping away from OA, not locking Thomas out and continuing solo.

A Mediocre Transbian Polycule

Terrible apology. Trying to pretend that you have counter evidence but are just too good of a guy to share it. Trying to argue that you didn’t touch Thomas inappropriately when you clearly have a drinking problem that would impede your judgement and memory. I hope you can step back for a while and try again when your judgement isn’t impaired.

Ben Lillijord

Trying or not, that's what you're doing. Moreover, that's what it looks like you're doing. You're a smart man, Andrew. You weigh evidence for a living. What's more likely: that a you don't remember something that happened two years ago when you were drunk, or that Thomas lied in his contemporaneous notes?

Stormy Decisis says visit sharebannedbooks.com

then where are they?

General Contact Unit Problem Child

This apology also ignored the allegations of Charone Frankle, a screen shot of which can be found at the following Google docs link https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uCtqCvMDZtwkjPYrBTd4cCg8XCuV1EJ4/view?usp=drivesdk. I am amazed by the idea that you will be continuing OA, all I could think of for the last few days is if Thomas would be able to find lawyers to do the show with. It never even crossed my mind that you would try to continue it.

Skyshroud elf

I feel like I was willing to hear a sincere apology until then as well. I'm not sure Thomas handled everything exactly as would be ideal in this mess (that Andrew is responsible for), but I've been asking myself if I could have either. I really felt what Thomas said about Andrew being his "meal ticket," and I can appreciate being afraid to start a legal fight with a lawyer who's also your business partner and perhaps erstwhile friend. I do feel Thomas was morally compromised, from what I've been able to understand about who knew what when, but I also feel that Andrew is responsible for putting him in a position where that was likely to occur. I'm also not sure I'm hearing Andrew take responsibility for all the allegations against him as I understand them, which maybe is a good legal move but doesn't boost my forgiveness meter. I suppose if he was sufficiently drunk he may just not be able to remember all of what people have claimed he did. At this point, either Thomas or Andrew thinking OA can go forward seems implausible. I enjoyed the show since the beginning and I'll miss Andrew's voice on legal matters. I miss a few podcasts that have ceased for amicable reasons. This is a bitter end.

Tyler Holsonback

he deleted one of my comments as well I'll end my subscription when I sober up

General Contact Unit Problem Child

This is hard to square with Thomas saying that you've taken over this account and are blocking him out.

Jeremy Smith

I didn't delete any comments here, Stormy. And I certainly am not trying to screw over Thomas.

Opening Arguments

Giving all our attention to scolding Andrew doesn't provide these women with support. I feel like it just makes it worse. As someone who has experienced trauma, the last thing I want is a cycle of reminders of that trauma. No one heals from getting revenge. Accountability is key.

Aminah

A brief audio clip was posted earlier to the feed and promptly deleted. This tells you where it's going: "Hey everyone this is Thomas. Andrew has locked me out of every single thing. He's going full offensive against me. I think I have access to this RSS feed, but it's the only way I will. Please go to Serious Inquiries Only to access information because he's stealing everything."

Steve Whitcher

Andrew deleted my comment that you replied to. I am on my way out. That Andrew is trying to screw over Thomas is just unconscionable. Edit: The comment was not deleted. That appears to have been Patreon glitchiness.

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I genuinely hope you do hold yourself accountable, because it's clear from this response that you have no intent of letting the law do so. If I were in the same situation I'd probably make a similar public response, but you don't get into situations quite like this unless there's a pattern of behavior that you've already failed to hold yourself accountable for. So maybe keep your hands to yourself next time you go drinking so that it doesn't become everyone else's problem again.

BlackEyedGhost

I wanted so bad for this to not be as bad as it appeared, but the axe grind with Thomas in the middle is such a classic alcoholic move that I now fully believe it is just as bad as it looks. What an absolute tragedy this all is for everyone involved.

Matthew McNulty

Thank you for the statement. I am glad your getting help that you need.

Ed orth

Andrew, have you locked Thomas out of Opening Arguments’ accounts? https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenArgs/comments/10vlaa7/andrew_is_stealing_everything_and_has_locked_me/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Nathan Panuco

Andrew, the most important thing is giving deference to the victims. The second most important thing is to get the help, and truly give yourself over to it. I hope that you can see through pettiness to do just that. Time and the letting go of control are what will heal these wounds.

Colbin Erdahl

Andrew, you cannot in one breath say you're apologetic towards the women accusing you of crossing boundaries, and categorically deny you crossed similar boundaries with Thomas. That's what makes this seem disingenuous. Something's not adding up. It is hard not to suspect it has something to do with the legal arrangement you have with Thomas and ownership of this podcast. That's the only logical thing I (and seems others) can think of why you'd throw that in the statement. At a practical level, how on earth can you say you will continue to deliver OA? Thomas is half the show and it seems in this statement you're burning him to the ground. I genuinely hope you get the help you need and own the harms you've done to people who trusted and loved you. But this is a thing you cannot do halfway. Try again.

bella ciao

Andrew, As a fan who literally idolized you... Who listened to your every word with what even I will admit was probably an excessive amount of respect and deference... You need to walk away from this. Thomas built a big chunk of this podcast, and he is spiraling right now. You may not have a legal obligation to do right by him, but you have a MORAL obligation to do right by him, and make sure he gets both good representation in whatever fucked up legal battle with soon ensue, and that he escapes this whole damn mess with at least some way to support his family. I would have absolutely believed you if you posted this apology earlier, but the situation is different now. I want to hear this explanation of what happened from Thomas, not you. I am sorry but I just don't know who to trust right now, and the only way I will be comfortable with this show ever again would be for Thomas to tell me it's ok. Is this fair? Fuck no it's not fair. It grossy benifits Thomas at your expense. Here is the thing... The Andrew I knew from the podcast would do exactly that. The Andrew I wanted to believe you were would have given away everything in order to do right by his co-host. Or, put another way, the Andrew I looked up to would be smart enough to know that he's already lost on this, and he needs to settle.

Alex The Apologetic (that his name is too long)

Agree with Tamgerine, graceless is a good way of putting it. A "categorical" denial means that he does not even accept that he could have unintentionally made Thomas uncomfortable.

Knight in DC

go fuck your self

General Contact Unit Problem Child

If you aren't a bot, which tbh I'm not sure about, then you personally weren't wronged. At best you're a narcissist looking to feel some sense of justice in the world by piling on and spending too much time on social media. You can always log off I promise. Watch, I'll show you right now.

Caleb Benningfield

Damn Andrew. I seriously looked up to you. I started a legal career because of you. You have let everyone that cares about you down. And now you're just doubling down? Doing a hostile takeover is just unbelievable. You meant so much to me... you're a fucking bastard. I'm done with you.

Theo Caro

oh. there's... a lot. i'm taking a wait and see, but generally, it's not great.

Knight in DC

Just realized how many bots are here and how they've been doing Elon posts lately. Sad how quickly they fell for it. I guess job well done "NSaneAtheist".

Caleb Benningfield

If Andrew comes back to OA, I will never support it again and go fuck yourself, Andrew

Justin Brisley

Well, I'm somewhat new to OA and clearly it's over. Maybe in the end AI wins...

Kimberly D Stephen

You are doing the same thing???

Theo Caro

So I knew nothing until this uploaded

Rachel J Larris

I am heartbroken. I’ve been a member since “Stormy Daniels is a Legal Genius” and I’ve looked forward to this podcast like no other. I can’t continue to support it. I, too, am switching my support to SIO.

Jason H

Andrew, I said elsewhere I think you still have a good heart, and I meant that. I agree that the focus needs to be on making the victims whole, and on getting yourself treatment. The most chilling things I read in the victims’ statements were when they said they felt as though the touching and advances were second nature to you, like you had done this 100 times before. If I’m reading the situation right, I think you need to be outwardly and inwardly less defensive, and admit you may have done things worse than you remember, to the victims that have come forward, to others, and possibly to Thomas. Self help starts with reflection, and I believe realizing your own self denial. Please listen to all your victims. OA has been such a positive force in the world.

Colbin Erdahl

"It's none of your business." Whether the members of the organization that we are financially supporting are screw each other over seems like it's our business. If this platform has been taken over by one of those members at the exclusion of the other, then where exactly is our money going?

Theo Caro

"back lower hip" and "never sexual" sort of undermine the intensity of that entire clip. But hey enjoy your bloodthirst.

Caleb Benningfield

This was…not an apology. You full-in gaslit Thomas left and right in here. I just…damn, Andrew. You really made a mess of things here. I’m so disappointed and heartbroken for the people you hurt. I hadn’t made a decision on whether or not to cancel my Patreon, but this solidified it. Goodbye, Andrew Torrez. Please get help.

FebruErin

Thomas sprinted to pile on on social media. An actual friend would have not made this bizarre public spectacle. Thomas was acting out of self preservation.

Caleb Benningfield

I am very much aware, but I would like to find somebody who had the balls to work with him and even still I don't think anybody would be listening to it and no we're not vultures we are people who have been deceived and hurt and are reacting to seeing people that we have supported and cared about being hurt because of him and if you're only information is coming from Patreon, then you truly have no idea what you're talking about

NSaneAtheist

Stormy the point of us staying in this community? we were both prominent question askers, but I think that's very over, ...everthing seems over

General Contact Unit Problem Child

OA is a legal breakdown podcast. Thomas was great but all the actual work has always been Andrew. Y'all are some hungry vultures.

Caleb Benningfield

Gracelessness is an excellent word for it.

Tamgerine

"GOOD EVENING"?!?!?! Go to rehab and then go to hell Andrew. Or at least purgatory. I'm glad you've minimized your liability or whatever with this. I'm going to pull funding from you and put it all on Thomas.

Rohan Mehta

For the love of.. please get a hobby. Stop keyboard warrioring to make yourself feel like a vigilante or whatever.

Caleb Benningfield

Hey look more narcissists here to fan the flames. Have some shame Tam. It's none of your business.

Caleb Benningfield

"Believe women" said in the same breathe as you throw Thomas under the bus. Fucking unbelievable. The point of believe women is believing victims when they report the abuse they face and taking it seriously. Pretty fucking rich to hear you say that while so callously dismissing another accuser.

Bench Appearo

Check out the PIAT facebook group and follow the pain...sadly

NSaneAtheist

You're defined not alone. There are many facebooks groups who are devastated right now

NSaneAtheist

I've listened to the podcast and loved it for years, and I desperately want everyone involved to heal and get better. With that said...the gracelessness with which you treated Thomas in this clip sours what otherwise seemed like a heartfelt apology. I urge you to delete this and try again.Whether or not there is shade to be thrown you are not in a situation in which throwing it can be interpreted as anything but inappropriate. Please step outside yourself (once again, as I'm sure you've been introspecting a lot), and understand that even if the physical contact never happened - and I am not suggesting I disbelieve Thomas here - your conduct has hurt Thomas deeply and you don't have room to talk about him as you did here.

Andy

Andrew, you need to accept the fact that OA is done. You have completely locked Thomas out of everything out of what? petty revenge ? out of retribution...which is precisely what Thomas said would happen. And then you come on here trying to discredit everything Thomas has said as if you're truly hurt when you're the one who hurt others Andrew! Its you who hurt Thomas, you hurt women, you hurt every listener who ever gave you any amount of trust, and the worst as you hurt your family.

NSaneAtheist

I hope you will get the help you need, make the amends you can, and accept the consequences you must.

Dusty Lee

Wait, so Andrew is planning on continuing to host OA?... I can't imagine that or that Thomas is going to continue to co-host... this whole thing has affected me a lot more than it should have

Justin S.

Jfc what the hell happened? I was away. Omg.

One Smart Cookie™ cutters

Andrew, from someone who has been a fan since your first appearance on Atheistically Speaking, someone who ditched Smalley due to his behavior toward you, who has come to rely on your thoughtful expertise to keep sane in an increasingly insane news cycle, I offer a sincere fuck you. You have a legal career. This show feeds Thomas's kids. Do the right fucking thing for once.

Mark Smith

I do NOT condone Andrew’s actions in any way. That being said, I can seperate out what he’s done from the show. I hope he is able to get the situation under control and I look forward to him returning to OA. Or, assuming OA is done, then I am looking forward to Andrew restarting a new podcast on his own.

Zoe the pug puppy’s best friend

Can you respond to the allegations that you've locked Thomas out of all OA platforms and are "stealing everything"? How is the ownership of OA being handled? I'm concerned Thomas isn't being treated fairly as a partner and co-host when you're the one who got the hammer brought down. What you've done, and allegedly are still doing, to Thomas isn't fair.

Tamgerine

This is gross. I'm canceling my subscription.

ed3d.net

That statement....🤬😡🤬🤬

NSaneAtheist

So much this! Especially when you’ve admitted to having a drinking problem and that your behaviour towards people when you’re drinking is inappropriate. Thomas clearly stated AT was drinking. And further clearly attributed his inappropriate behaviour to his drinking. Furthermore considering Thomas has mental health issues with anxiety and depression- this situation is understandably overwhelming. I would suggest that Andrew is not able to be fully cognisant of how he behaved towards Thomas!

SonWinks

Fuck you.

NSaneAtheist

Andrew, I appreciate that you are trying to make things right and I think the steps you've listed are a good start. However, I've got to ask, what seems more likely to you: That Thomas misremembered or misreported what happened, or that you did? Given that you were, quite possibly, very drunk? And given that you might not have remembered a touch that, to you, seemed benign? Both of those are factors that inhibit memory. In contrast, Thomas has text messages reporting his distress soon after the event, when memory was freshest. If you're going to take responsibility for things you did while drunk, you may really need to consider the possibility that you don't remember everything you did.

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What in the actual fuck.

MaasNeotekPrototype

"I'm hurt and disappointed to see Thomas would publicly out someone having problems with alcohol before they admitted to them" Andrew you touched Thomas without his permission, he doesn't need your permission ....to put it mildly

General Contact Unit Problem Child

And the part about Thomas and Eli is clearly taking what Thomas said out of context. I was feeling compassion about it until then. That really put me off.

Lisa S

If this didn’t include the Thomas bashing I might have given his apology more grace - but that left a bad taste in my mouth :/

IS SHE TALKING ABOUT ME

I appreciate and love you for a genuine focus on accountability. That said, based on the info that has been shared, I am deeply sad at what feels like an outsized response. This practice of taking private messages and subjecting them to a social media court is frankly massively toxic. People should be allowed to interact via social cues. When someone misreads them it's about how they respond when they are told no. I also think the allegation of some sort of power dynamic are overblown. OA is a lovely podcast but barely mid tier in the general landscape. The people frothing at the mouth to frame you like some sort of Weinstein should be ashamed of themselves. The texts with people clearly flirting with you and pushing to get on your podcasts are pretty telling. That said, there's no room for nuance anymore and I know there's no socially acceptable way to fight this without looking worse than they're already trying to make you look. The circular firing squad claims another victim.

Caleb Benningfield

The best apology is always to do better. I hope treatment goes well.

Honey the bunny

What a weird night.

Dave