law / OA687: Trump Sues Woodward, Gets Close to Making a Valid Legal Argument

I don't think that condemnation is the right answer, but I certainly hope Thomas's situation here can lead to important conversations about what happens and should happen in some of the grey areas surrounding abusive behavior. We don't really need much discussion on "why you shouldn't hit on people you have power over", but I think there is good conversation to be had about what happens when things get complicated. The ways people both should and do respond when they have social and career incentives to rationalize or minimize others' abuse. Especially when they have also been a victim of that behavior. I don't think "we'll only do live events if your wife comes" was the right answer here, but I get how he got there, and I think it would be worthwhile to examine that and discuss what a correct response would have looked like. I'd love it if some other creators in the larger community (AG would be a perfect fit, though I could certainly understand her not wanting to) did have that conversation in the next few months. What Andrew did is something he needs to learn from. But I think Thomas's situation is one we could all learn from.

wishing people didn't suck

2023-02-07 00:30:54 +0000 UTC

Be careful. The truth of the matter is not yet fully known by anyone who isn't inside this whole fucked up mess, and those who are currently in it would be wise to keep their mouths shut until they talk to their lawyers lest they open themselves up to additional legal risk from Andrew or the victims. Does Thomas deserve some of the blame here? Maybe. It looks like it from some of the stuff I read. The problem here is that we as fans have only partial information. I need to say I agree strongly with Michael Rops: the root of the problem here isn't Thomas... And it's not even Andrew's specific abuse. The bigger problem is that even after considering the difficulty of a victim coming forwards, they are still coming forward to the friends and financial partners of the perpetrator. Thomas didn't have the choice to "recuse" himself here; he had to act as the arbitrator. It looks like he choose to go with what the victim wanted... At least as of what I have read. Maybe that is not the truth, but I just can't say for sure yet, and neither can you.

Alex The Apologetic (that his name is too long)

2023-02-06 22:59:37 +0000 UTC

When your financial future is tied up with the guy and you consider him your friend, I can completely and utterly understand the idea you might minimize what happened or even outright be in denial. The problem here fundamentally that victims need to report these issues to co-workers and friends of their abuser. That's just messed up. Some of us are working on fixing this and hopefully soon we will get something out for patrons to support so that that situation never happens again.

Michael Rops

2023-02-06 22:20:20 +0000 UTC

Nah. I don’t know either of them personally, of course, but Thomas appears to be a victim in this too. Maybe not a perfect victim, but still a victim. Yes, he might have had the capabilities to do something, but, to me, that’s in the same vein as saying the other victims should’ve just blocked Andrew. There is/was obviously a power dynamic between the two that gave Andrew the upper hand - a direct contrast to the Catholic Church metaphor. Thomas said it in the recording, but Andrew was his “meal ticket.” The same way the other victims did not terminate their correspondence with Andrew out of fear of retaliation or harming their careers, is it too far to see where Thomas could be in the same (if not more precarious) situation? There are a lot of things I’m sure Thomas wished he did differently, and it’s unconscionable to me to wholly fault him for this. The whole thing just sucks.

IS SHE TALKING ABOUT ME

2023-02-06 21:19:03 +0000 UTC

It’s tough. Again, I don’t know them personally, but I listened to Andrew week after week, and of all the people who have had sexual assault allegations come out, this one surprised me more than any other. I’m not saying Thomas has no fault for not pursuing the allegations earlier, but I do understand the sentiment that “there must be some misunderstanding, that is just not who Andrew is.” I felt that way until I had read all of the Google drive exchanges posted this weekend. My guess is that even Andrew had a whole lot of self-denial that he wasn’t really in the wrong and actually hurting people. I would have wished that Thomas or someone had been able to talk to Andrew and make him see his behavior, stop and try to make amends five years ago, but I also understand not thinking it could be real. Hindsight makes it look pretty bad. I can’t excuse letting it go for so long, but I have to say, to me, this really didn’t seem like something that could be true about Andrew.

Colbin Erdahl

2023-02-06 20:59:35 +0000 UTC

it is the oldest temptation in any book to seek to burden those without power with the crimes of those who have the power. it is not helpful or just. the pope is the guy in charge, he has the power, my sense is that Thomas did not. i suspect those of us who’ve been on the receiving end will always bring our own trauma to the table, it is hard not too but he is a victim here too. your choice is, of course, your choice and it is tough to see how this pod can continue but it seems harsh to kick a victim who, rightly or wrongly, seems all too convinced of their own complicity already. it is telling however that afaik none of the other victims have taken that stance. i suspect there is more still to come but for now maybe focus on the person who actually did the things not seek to start smearing anyone else.

Tom Pegg

2023-02-06 20:42:47 +0000 UTC

FOR THOSE wanting to CONTINUE to support Thomas - FOOD FOR THOUGHT! Thomas' audio recording shows that he knew all along and kept it quiet. Then HE was violated by the same guy. Yet, he did nothing but continued to podcast. What happened to those of us who rail against the pope for keeping stuff he knew quiet? Thomas's silence allowed Andrew to keep on keeping on. THE ONLY reason we NOW know about this is not through some brave action by Thomas or those connected (Puzzle/Thunderstorm). We ONLY know because the women came forward. As the dust has settled and the endless posts and reports of all this came to light we know one thing, Thomas knew in 2017 and simply chose to be quiet about it. We now know Eli also knew several years ago and was silent. Their silence allowed this to continue. FFS, in Thomas's texts to his wife even SHE mentions the previous accusations while Thomas is sorting out what had just happened to him. Had Thomas spoke up earlier, even he would have been safe from this serial perpetrator's actions against himself (Thomas). It pains me to say all this as OA got me through the Trump years with my sanity in tact. I relied on both of them. BOTH have let me down in different ways. Those that knew and did nothing are guilty of covering this up in the same way the catholic & southern Baptist church makes MANY of us survivors angry for coverup. I am a new patron financially to OA but i just cant abide this now that SO much has come out. And to know that PIAT recently set up a second private communication channel about this stuff really irks me. Stinks of coverup. So much for transparency. I'll be spending my patreon dollars from OA at MSW's site where i already contribute monthly.

Denicio

2023-02-06 20:23:27 +0000 UTC

This aged badly

Jakob

2023-02-06 18:47:37 +0000 UTC

Woah - leave Heath out of this!

Sargon's smug fucking face

2023-02-06 12:44:07 +0000 UTC

Thank you for that.

Sargon's smug fucking face

2023-02-06 12:42:49 +0000 UTC

I also would like something be posted here, WHEN THOMAS IS READY TO DO SO. (Although as @Dad bods... points out, that may be...fraught.) Have some freaking perspective, people. In addition to everything @Michael Rops has said (thank you for your entirely sensible comments,) the story dropped right before the weekend, and came out piecemeal. A personal reaction is one thing, an official response takes time.

Shrooom!

2023-02-06 07:55:54 +0000 UTC

Can't listen yet. Not ready

John of the bankruptcy pirates

2023-02-06 07:50:21 +0000 UTC

https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenArgs/comments/10rafuy/american_atheists_board_members_exit_dogged_by/j6ujkit/

Shrooom!

2023-02-06 07:46:07 +0000 UTC

@PeterinKorea Intention isn't everything. Just one factor among many.

Shrooom!

2023-02-06 07:40:00 +0000 UTC

Summary of allegations: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenArgs/comments/10u2u8i/summary_of_all_the_accusationsallegations_against/ Initial reactions: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenArgs/comments/10rafuy/american_atheists_board_members_exit_dogged_by/j6zsakp/ Thomas reaction: https://seriouspod.com/andrew/ Seidel reaction: https://twitter.com/andrewlseidel/status/1621491626173505538?s=46&t=D0JOr9ZSH6J7Q20it67q5A

Shrooom!

2023-02-06 07:30:51 +0000 UTC

Oh no. On the incredibly remote chance that Andrew reads any of this: you dick. You stupid, idiotic, privileged dick. I’ve been listening to you for the last five years, counting you and Thomas as two of the good guys, relying on you as examples of decent men doing good things. And you do this? To the women who thought of you as principled, and let their guard down with you? To your wife, and son? To Thomas? To the PIAT guys? To AG? To all of us who have listened to you, and made you a part of our lives, of our worldview? You stupid man. What a waste you’ve made of something wonderful. Get help. Salvage something. You’ve done a lot of good. Repair the harm.

Joannasephine

2023-02-06 07:05:36 +0000 UTC

It's not that anyone thinks supporters of other shows should be better informed; it's that this is clearly a traumatic experience and people are allowing Thomas to make mistakes in his response. In the audio he posted he said it took him 15 minutes just to remember how to post the audio. His thought process is shutting down as a trauma response, and he is suffering panic attacks. It's also not totally clear if him posting here would be okay as Andrew is a 50% owner of OA and presumably has some sort of editorial control. Thomas has now come out as a survivor of Andrew's abuse himself and should not be forced to talk to Andrew about posting here just to make it easier for us to be informed.

Steno Pun'd it

2023-02-05 23:08:49 +0000 UTC

Thomas...if you see this, I hope it helps. I listened to your message. I feel guilty that I didn't do enough to stop the Iraq war. As a student of Middle East history, to the point that I've written research in the Iran/Iraq war and as a student of military history and member of the armed forces, I knew in my heart of hearts that it was an immoral and illegal war. For you to feel guilty about Andrew's action to you and to others is a similar feeling. THIS DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE AT FAULT. Andrew made his actions and is dealing with them (I hope). I still want to hear what you have to say. I really like DOD.

AtheistEagleScout

2023-02-05 22:30:23 +0000 UTC

Thanks for that link. It doesn't change what I thought, except I'm going to give Thomas even more time to chart the way forward. I'm wrestling with how to continue to support Thomas through Patreon. SIO appears to be moribund; no podcasts since November, and without podcasts there is no money going to him from that. I don't listen to Dear Old Dads (not my cup of tea). Maybe I'll throw my Patreon bucks to DOD without listening for a few months. This is rough, and I hope Thomas knows that he has a large fan base that is behind him.

Wordorigins.org

2023-02-05 15:34:26 +0000 UTC

Damnit:(

IS SHE TALKING ABOUT ME

2023-02-05 14:56:31 +0000 UTC

For those of you who don’t have Facebook and don’t have access to the full stories, you should check out this Google drive link, which some of the people who brought this to light are curating: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jIFbWDxgY0ZyIB899GHeu_BjGRV7llCZ

Sam Buck

2023-02-05 14:44:31 +0000 UTC

Might be a good idea for some that are concerned to switch your support to dear old dads or serious inquiries only, or both. I like this new format so I will keep listening but I'm not sure I want that 50% to go to ...

Harrier the Amazing Bean

2023-02-05 06:37:04 +0000 UTC

I really hope the OA patreon community can come together and switch support to SIO or DOD. I want to show Thomas that in these difficult times, the joy he has brought to us for years isn’t lost on us, and I would love to get him through this in the small ways we can (financially).

Peaches from Tulsa

2023-02-05 03:50:33 +0000 UTC

I think that’s fair, but it has been only 24 hours, and the guy’s entire world has been turned upside down, so I’m cool with giving him a few days.

Colbin Erdahl

2023-02-05 03:18:40 +0000 UTC

It’s precisely because of how serious it is that it feels doubly important that patrons should be made aware. A casual supporter still has no idea about any of this. I don’t think it’s a mere nitpick to say that it’s really weird that those paying to support the show shouldn’t be more out of the loop than people who listen to other shows. Clearly you disagree and that’s fine.

Alex Pavia

2023-02-05 02:22:58 +0000 UTC

JFC the man's entire world has collapsed around him and your nitpicking about where he posts about it? Forgive me but this is utterly tone deaf. GO LISTEN TO THE AUDIO OF THOMAS. Once you do that, let me know if you still have this same nitpick.

Michael Rops

2023-02-05 02:03:06 +0000 UTC

So much of this is triggering for me because the behaviour Andrew seems to have engaged in is so utterly commonplace for many women. Hearing Thomas's statement... It's like the things he's saying to himself are things I've said to myself one too many times. Gaslighting yourself is a coping mechanism. You sort of blame yourself. You're not to blame. It's exponentially worse when it is a person you love. You start second guessing your instincts and push it way down. All of what he said, that's how it goes. I hope he knows all that. I also hope he takes any amount of time he needs to work through it.

bella ciao

2023-02-05 01:10:00 +0000 UTC

I'm listening to Thomas' statement on SIO from today and I'm fighting back tears right now. I too have never met Thomas, Andrew or any of the PIAT guys, but they've been in my ears for many years so in a way they have felt like friends. There's not much I can do, but for now I'll continue to support Thomas through Patreon but may shift my money over to SIO or DOD's.

JimBob Duggar's Liberal Conjoined Twin

2023-02-05 00:58:13 +0000 UTC

It keeps getting worse!!!! 😭

Running Beck

2023-02-05 00:23:44 +0000 UTC

It’s also my opinion that taking several days or more to process this situation is completely warranted. Thomas, I’m sure everything Opening Arguments just feels tainted right now, but know that there is still a community that has grown and learned because of you. This is so tough, please take time and seek the advice of friends to heal, or at least cauterize this wound before even trying to think about how to move forward. Everyone, go easy on yourselves this weekend.

Colbin Erdahl

2023-02-04 23:50:20 +0000 UTC

As a straight cis man, I also very much sympathize with Thomas’ feeling that this should not exist in our world, and the following feeling that I may have been shitty to some women earlier in my life. As a father of two young boys, I know I will have to proactively address things like consent, and frankly of all media, and my own friends, I feel these impulses most supported by Dear Old Dads.

Colbin Erdahl

2023-02-04 23:41:39 +0000 UTC

I listened to Thomas’ audio. It’s all just so heartbreaking. Again, I know that I’ve never actually met either of these men, nor any of the alleged victims, I just want to say, if Thomas does read this: Yes you should have done more if there were allegations you had been told about, BUT what an incredible deception this was, if true. I mean, the more I think, the more I’m floored by the monomaniacal chutzpah required to continue to deny allegations and pursue unwanted advances for years and years, while going on the show every week, often with a theme of “How does this person think they will get away with this?!” With perhaps a few exceptions, it seems that Andrew deceived quite a lot of people, and while this can’t make your own personal deception hurt any less, hopefully you can take some solace, and turn your energy towards making things right for the victims. I don’t know what it will take in our society to truly convince every man that they are not special, and will in fact be found out and face consequences.

Colbin Erdahl

2023-02-04 23:34:56 +0000 UTC

Omfg. Fucking hell.

bella ciao

2023-02-04 22:51:16 +0000 UTC

I was thinking the exact same thing….

SonWinks

2023-02-04 22:40:27 +0000 UTC

I think you’re missing my point. I’m fine giving them time, this is an awful situation. But why are all of the responses somewhere other than Patreon? If you only listen to OA and don’t read the comments on Patreon, you’d have no idea anything was really up. It’s distinctly paying subscribers who aren’t being proactively communicated with, even just to say “here’s what we can share, this sucks, give us time.” The problem is not the lack of a clear path forward, it’s choosing to post on Facebook and not replicating that post here. They’ve made statements, you’ve linked to one. A Patreon post linking to the other statements would be fine.

Alex Pavia

2023-02-04 22:18:01 +0000 UTC

If you pull support here and can afford to, join dear old dads, I think.

Bob Blaskiewicz

2023-02-04 22:06:55 +0000 UTC

I dont think it can. https://seriouspod.com/andrew/

Bob Blaskiewicz

2023-02-04 22:06:14 +0000 UTC

This is hard to listen to - so TW SA! https://seriouspod.com

SonWinks

2023-02-04 22:03:46 +0000 UTC

Oh my god. I just heard his upload. Fucking hell.

Bob Blaskiewicz

2023-02-04 22:02:04 +0000 UTC

Not just legal counsel, co-owner.

Chris Conley

2023-02-04 21:46:46 +0000 UTC

You're in business with an attorney, who is well versed in libel laws. You've also been abused by said attorney. Your entire living depends on this attorney being able to produce the show you collaborate on. That all collapses in less than 12 hours. Would you execute perfectly? Go listen to the audio Thomas posted. It is heartbreaking. I am one of the top patrons of this show. I have given them thousands of dollars since they started. Knowing the seriously f'ed up things that have been happening, I'm giving them all a little room to figure this out. Listen to Thomas here: https://seriouspod.com/andrew/

Michael Rops

2023-02-04 21:43:14 +0000 UTC

Umm if you knew what they have been dealing with, I can completely understand the less than perfect execution of communication on this. Please go listen to the audio Thomas posted here: (warning it is a DIFFICULT listen) https://seriouspod.com/andrew/

Michael Rops

2023-02-04 21:39:29 +0000 UTC

Please go listen to the audio thomas posted below, if you are able to.

Michael Rops

2023-02-04 21:36:42 +0000 UTC

We both were brother, but given the latest posting by Thomas, it's worse than I ever thought it could be.

Michael Rops

2023-02-04 21:36:08 +0000 UTC

This is an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT THING to listen to. If sexual assault triggers you, do not listen to it.

Michael Rops

2023-02-04 21:34:11 +0000 UTC

Long-time patron, first time patreon-poster. I feel awful for everyone involved, especially the people who may be victims, those who rely on Andrew's skills and talent for their work, and for the people like me who have look to Andrew and Thomas as a beacon of reason aand sensibility. I don't plan on removing my subscription - the podcast is one of the best values I get from any media subscription, and I hope it continues.

Pete Grimes

2023-02-04 21:26:12 +0000 UTC

https://seriouspod.com/andrew/

Mark M

2023-02-04 21:15:20 +0000 UTC

I concur with giving Thomas time, but the statements should be posted here as well. I don't follow the FB group (and my interaction with FB is minimal in any case), nor do I hang out in Reddit. We here at Patreon are the ones who foot the bill, and this forum should be the first place things are posted.

Wordorigins.org

2023-02-04 18:30:50 +0000 UTC

I am incredibly busy at work and I don't currently have time for social media. I have no idea what is going on and it bothers me that there is information that Thomas and Andrew are making information available in other places that isn't available here to Patreon supporters.

Noetherian

2023-02-04 18:12:37 +0000 UTC

I hope Andrew takes some time out to deal with things without taking out feelings on anyone in destructive ways. Patience, time, careful contrition and amends. Maybe hire professionals to help do it right.

Clayton Johnson

2023-02-04 17:58:56 +0000 UTC

I gotta say it rubs me the wrong way that there’s a statement on Facebook, a site the show and many of its fans seem to agree is not a net good for the world, but no direct communication to the people who are actually paying to support the show. If one only listens to the show it just sounds like there’s a family/medical issue or something. I get this has got to be a difficult time for everyone involved but that’s why it’s more important that the people paying for the show should have all the information they need to decide if they want to keep giving the show money. I think Thomas has earned the benefit of the doubt but it’s a bad look to uniquely keep those giving money in the dark…

Alex Pavia

2023-02-04 17:36:10 +0000 UTC

Andrew has repeatedly been a creep towards women. If he comes back, I'm cancelling my Patreon

Sleepless Slugma Slowly Sludges Slyly, Sliming Sluices Slyly

2023-02-04 13:56:56 +0000 UTC

Thomas posted a short statement in the Facebook group noting that listeners want and explanation and are entitled to one, but that it is taking sime time for legal and other reasons. My personal opinion is that people should give Thomas some time and evaluate his statement/explanation on its merits when he releases it. I don't think an internet mob coming for Andrew and then by association Thomas helps anyone involved. Andrew made a statement on the Facebook group that has also been posted in the OA subreddit. Thomas will make a statement, people should read those statements and form their own opinions after doing do. OA is a partnership between Thomas and Andrew (as I understand it they are each 50% owners), so where listeners are free to just unsubscribe and be done with it if that is their choice, things are more complicated for Thomas. I'm not suggesting any blanket forgiveness for either of them. These allegations are serious and patrons and other listeners are entitled to do their due diligence and decide for themselves. I don't yet know what my own decision will be. But, speaking only for myself, I am going to take some time to process rather than making immediate decisions. I want to know what Thomas has to say and am willing to give him some time to release his statement.

Michael

2023-02-04 12:59:40 +0000 UTC

For Thomas's sake, I will not be ending my Patreon support for the podcast immediately, but I will not be supporting any show that Andrew is affiliated with indefinitely. I do think that Thomas needs to be more communicative with the patrons as to the status of the show and what the plans are. The silence to date is understandable; there's a lot for Thomas to work out and the complexities of the business partnership limit what he can do and say on his own. But sooner rather than later we are owed information on what will be happening with the show moving forward.

Wordorigins.org

2023-02-04 12:24:33 +0000 UTC

For those not on Facebook- it would be great if it could be addressed to patrons here… it would be appreciated.

SonWinks

2023-02-04 10:29:46 +0000 UTC

Where is the statement?

SonWinks

2023-02-04 09:58:50 +0000 UTC

He addressed it in the Facebook group

UNLV Prof & NV Board of Examiners MFTt&CPC member

2023-02-04 08:43:50 +0000 UTC

I personally feel like I need to stop my support of OA. If Thomas addresses this on the pod and shares a plan for the future of the podcast and assurances that Andrew will not benefit from the Patreon support then I will consider supporting again. I support Dear Old Dads so I still have an avenue to support Thomas. Though I hope to understand better whether Thomas and the rest of PIAT could have/should have done something sooner. I've read Noah and Eli's statements but I'd like to hear from Thomas.

FlocktimusPrime

2023-02-04 05:32:56 +0000 UTC

Of all the folks in the OA/45/PiaT-verse, Andrew was the last one I expected to pull a #metoo (had my money on Heath, no offense). Seriously, man. It's basic organizational ethics: if you're in a position of power, you don't try to fuck the membership. And, in basic marital ethics, you get informed consent from your partner before you try to fuck anyone that isn't them. I'm glad the membership of the 'verse is uniformly dealing with this as appropriately as possible, but your weakness has not only made several women uncomfortable, but threatened the viability of several shows that pay the hosts' bills and feed their kids, and that are a progressive light-in-the-dark for thousands of folks. I read your statement - that it started with a defense was not great - if you're going to defend yourself, take the DoJ's advice and speak through your filings. The full-throated apology was better. I only hope that, going forward, you realize that you, as a public figure, need to hold yourself to a higher standard. That your actions - beyond the impact they have on the person you're speaking directly to - have wider impacts. All that said, I hope that you're able to make the changes you need to, sincerely reform your reputation, and bring back your valuable voice. I'll miss you. Not so much that I think you shouldn't be dropped from all the shows, but I will.

Chubby Bunny

2023-02-04 05:32:40 +0000 UTC

The meaning of the opening this morning went over my head; I thought that there might be a family death, but it was only character suicide. I'm hanging in there for Thomas, who we've been listening to learn for several years now. The pair of you have been really impactful on my understanding of a critically undercovered area of American political life. I am hugely disappointed, of course, because the behavior is gross and obviously beyond the pale. Or the pail. Possibly the payle. Look, every case deserves to be heard on its merits, and I believe the victim until the victim's story falls apart in cross. That almost never happens (I've only ever seen it once), and there is almost always a history of such behavior--and that seems to be the case here. I don't think that we have any interest in seeing the community disband over this. I was there for the great skeptifucking about 6 or 7 years ago, when the community decided to collectively lose its damned mind. Hang in there.

Bob Blaskiewicz

2023-02-04 02:29:40 +0000 UTC

Thomas, you have presented yourself as a deeply compassionate person. I have read everything that has been shared publicly, and none of it has changed my perception of you. I cancelled my Patreon yesterday morning, and restarted it today, because you are taking control and still presenting great content. This situation is complicated. Stay strong. There is a large community who loves you.

gorlitsa

2023-02-04 02:07:07 +0000 UTC

I am just so damn sad.

Running Beck

2023-02-04 01:52:52 +0000 UTC

I hope you are right.

PeterinKorea

2023-02-04 01:44:25 +0000 UTC

Believe women's perception, not men's intention.

PeterinKorea

2023-02-04 01:39:47 +0000 UTC

Yes. For me it comes to whether we want to judge based on perceptions or intentions. I looked at a few of the text messages. Perception is subjective, but could be discussed, especially among the women, who experienced the incidents first hand and maybe also their loved ones and friends, also the people who witnessed events directly leading up to the text messages. For intentions on the other hand, we only have the word of the accused that their intentions were good or at least not bad. I have to judge by perceptions for this reason alone. Too many bad things happen everyday even the intentions were good.

PeterinKorea

2023-02-04 01:36:54 +0000 UTC

Two things that I would like to see for the time being: a pause on payments being collected from patrons until the future of the podcast is better understood, and a separate post for patrons either directing them to this thread or consolidating statements in a post. I only occasionally read the comments, but I do read new posts from the content creators. Out of respect for patrons, please acknowledge this matter rather than leave it swept under the comments of this thread.

Robin Anderson

2023-02-04 00:41:59 +0000 UTC

Thomas i understand you have some serious business and contractual issues to work through here. I'm not canceling my support yet because I know this is a significant portion of your income. I am not comfortable with my money going to Andrew at this time, as much as I hate typing that. He can support himself with his legal practice. I won't continue contributing to the show if he continues to benefit from it much longer.

Dusty Lee

2023-02-04 00:32:39 +0000 UTC

As this continues to rattle around in my brain today (while keeping in mind that I have only this one-sided parasocial relationship, and certainly not all the facts) I am feeling so bad for: A) the victims, who were made to feel unsafe when they thought they had found their community B) his family that was likely deceived, and therefore also victims C) everyone in the OA community who gave trust, as well as money D) especially Thomas, who I would venture to say has lost not only a business partner, but a great friend. This absolutely breaks my heart. The more I think about Andrew, and the number of times the show has addressed allegations of sexual misconduct, the larger of a betrayal this feels. I will not give up on him, he is still someone who has opened my eyes to a lot, and means a great deal to me, but my gosh he has a lot to answer for right now.

Colbin Erdahl

2023-02-04 00:07:39 +0000 UTC

Thanks for the link. I came to the comments because I was worried about Andrew and well.... god dammit.

Tyler Holsonback

2023-02-03 23:44:22 +0000 UTC

Re dogged by vile accusations. I hope not. I don't think our community is like that mostly and if it does show up where people can see it , I expect louder voices will shout it down. I don't mean atheist. But the more humanist atheist who are audiences to these particular podcasts

John of the bankruptcy pirates

2023-02-03 23:06:37 +0000 UTC

Thank you, Thomas! I am disappointed regarding the news about Andrew, but I enjoyed the show with you and Liz.

Cindy Byrne

2023-02-03 21:55:40 +0000 UTC

Here’s a link to a reddit comment purporting to be Andrew’s statement. More details there as well. I’m pretty disappointed that Thomas would release this episode without having a statement or post or anything on the Patreon. https://reddit.com/r/OpenArgs/comments/10rafuy/_/j6ujkit/?context=1

Kelvin, like the temperature.

2023-02-03 21:36:53 +0000 UTC

Oh my! First my heart goes to the victim(s) that were harassed. These women will now undoubtedly be dogged by vile accusations and they need support! They need to feel heard. So from this woman to them - I’m sorry for your pain! Take courage because doing the right thing is often not easy but definitely is right. Secondly, Thomas I’m so sorry! This bullshit is definitely not what you deserve especially with new baby and just when things seemed to really be coming together nicely. I’m sorry that this additional stress is on your and Lidia’s shoulders- when it should be a wonderful bonding time with your new family! Thirdly, we as a society need to really start taking heed to ‘whisper campaigns’. Every single one that I have ever heard - has always ALWAYS eventually proven itself true! I became a patron of this show from the very beginning…. Then I heard a ‘whisper’. It was long time ago! Some time in early to mid 2017 - an online friend gave me a heads up. The ‘whisper campaign’ was well deployed. Unfortunately because it’s a whisper campaign it’s misses some potential targets. At that time I withdrew my pledge for this show. Last year, when nothing seemed to bubble up…. I relaxed my stance - and reinstated my pledge to this show. I felt more confident because Thomas and PiaT are reputable people. They would not give predatory behaviour cover, not intentionally, but purely through their cover by association. And whisper campaigns are just that whispers… they are often not enough to severe ties especially deeply intertwined ties. I should have trusted my gut. But I wanted to financially support PiaT and Thomas and Clean up. Along with Cog Dis - these are the only shows I pledge to, particularly during the pandemic. I’m not sure what the solution is. But I do feel we really should pay extra special attention to whisper campaigns…. It seems had it reached further it could have prevented this week. To all those affected… It is my hope that you heal. To Andrew… fuck man! Seriously this - clusterfuck is all your doing! Next time fucking respect the damn boundary! Read the damn room! Step into that fucking 21st century! Your bullshit has affected so many people!

SonWinks

2023-02-03 21:10:12 +0000 UTC

Thank you, just started listening to the podcast and didn't catch up

Dexter King Williams

2023-02-03 20:36:18 +0000 UTC

I don't know if she's going to continue to work for Andrew.

William LaFrance

2023-02-03 20:29:31 +0000 UTC

Read the other comments.

Thymus Fleeting

2023-02-03 20:26:32 +0000 UTC

“Does this mean he’s not coming on, then?” -James May

Phil

2023-02-03 20:22:09 +0000 UTC

Is Andrew ok?

Dexter King Williams

2023-02-03 20:20:55 +0000 UTC

Does this mean the Q&A is cancelled?

Garry Myers

2023-02-03 20:04:37 +0000 UTC

I came here to figure out what happened, as Thomas was kinda vague, I was concerned he had a health issue or something.

Steve S

2023-02-03 19:53:42 +0000 UTC

Doesn't she work for Andrew? If so, yeah i dont think that will work.

Denicio

2023-02-03 19:52:33 +0000 UTC

She's great, and I like her style, but the other lawyer was really good talking at a speed us slow, non-lawyers, could follow along.

Dan from Deerfield

2023-02-03 19:50:54 +0000 UTC

You summed my feelings up nicely. Bracing for the worst and hoping for the best.

Denicio

2023-02-03 19:50:33 +0000 UTC

Liz is a legal journalist, she is absolutely able and qualified to weigh in on that. I’m guessing she had almost no time to prepare for the episode so didn’t have a chance to look at the issue.

Jordan

2023-02-03 19:22:33 +0000 UTC

I think PiaT announced that they have cut ties, which may mean he no longer is legal counsel for them.

Jordan

2023-02-03 19:17:21 +0000 UTC

She read it on the Daily Beans podcast

Jordan

2023-02-03 19:15:45 +0000 UTC

Believe women

Morgan Vega

2023-02-03 19:12:29 +0000 UTC

Andrew was my hero. If Andrew is gone from the pod permanently, there's a good chance I'll stop listening and stop supporting on here. After reading all the documents I could get my hands on, it definitely seems like Andrew behaved in an extremely inappropriate way. His apology suggests that it was unintentional, but like you're a grown ass man and an accomplished attorney. You should have the human understanding and the sound judgment to know that you were behaving inappropriately and to do the serious and hard work of changing your character, but he didn't. He continued to be a creep. Like growing up I did some creepy shit out of a sort thoughtlessness. If you can break the rules and get away with it, it is easy to think about women merely as potential sources of sex, rather than people with their own projects, norms, and desires. He's had a long life to fix himself and he has declined to do so. So, I get it if he leaves the show. But I still I will likely stop listening as well. It's like trying to be friends with an ex. Even if they weren't terrible to you, being around them just hurts too much. (i.e. the show itself is blameless, but it is a reminder of who isn't there and why)

Theo Caro

2023-02-03 18:57:28 +0000 UTC

Yup. Andrew is going to be eating consequences for quite a while.

Jay P Hailey

2023-02-03 18:35:29 +0000 UTC

Thomas! Get Morgan Stringer as co-host!

Jay P Hailey

2023-02-03 18:34:23 +0000 UTC

Yes, which means the fact that the show is still being made and released likely means that Andrew agreed to the direction they are going in. They are equal partners, so the have to agree to make a decision. Or as Andrew has mentioned a few times recently, they will decide by a coin toss. More likely is that they negotiate Andrew's withdraw from the Opening Arguments, LLC. which would mean that Thomas would have to buy Andrew out.

Theo Caro

2023-02-03 18:29:56 +0000 UTC

Take this how you want, but I will be cancelling my Patreon if Andrew does not return.

CorDawg

2023-02-03 18:07:55 +0000 UTC

Wow, what a tough day. As tough as I’m sure this will be on the OA community, I really feel for Andrew’s wife and son. I have to say after reading as little as my curious internet brain allowed, I fall on the side of believing the women, a stance that has been propped up by OA in the past. I also feel for Thomas, as I’m sure it’s going to be tough to figure out how to move forward. These actions do feel like a betrayal. I still think Andrew has a good heart, but will have to accept consequences and make amends.

Colbin Erdahl

2023-02-03 18:00:26 +0000 UTC

Considering AGs history? I wouldn't expect her to have any forgiveness in this area. None at all

John of the bankruptcy pirates

2023-02-03 17:42:56 +0000 UTC

Thank you. Man, wow. My heart is kind of breaking.

David Blakeley

2023-02-03 17:26:23 +0000 UTC

Thinking of you Andrew and hope to see you soon

Meeka! The Above Average Dog

2023-02-03 16:13:11 +0000 UTC

Question about the Hunter Laptop, if you could prove that Giuliani or Bannon knew, or later learned that some of the information on the Laptop was not authentic, could there be espionage charges in the future? Both seem to have unsavory connections to foreign governments.

Dan from Deerfield

2023-02-03 15:48:04 +0000 UTC

Rabbit hole: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenArgs/comments/10rafuy/american_atheists_board_members_exit_dogged_by/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Garry Myers

2023-02-03 15:43:58 +0000 UTC

Enjoyed the episode, but one of the things that is missing, and Liz kind of touched on it by saying “I don’t know Delaware law and I don’t have to do that anymore,” this would have been when we would have had a lawyer jump in and talk about some of the laws that might have been broken, and if there could be traction, law-wise, in a particular direction.

Dan from Deerfield

2023-02-03 15:43:57 +0000 UTC

AG= Allison Gill of MSW PiaT= Puzzle in a Thunderstorm

Wishing every Clarence Thomas a very God rest his soul

2023-02-03 15:38:54 +0000 UTC

@Dyan Dinstel "AG" stands for Allison Gill, the creator of the MSW media group and with whom Andrew used to co-host on the Cleanup on Aisle 45 pod. "PIAT" stands for Puzzle in a Thunderstorm—the podcast group of Eli Bosnick, Noah Lugeons, and Heath Enright who do Scathing Atheist, God Awful Movies, and other podcasts. Andrew used to be legal counsel for the Puzzle group.

Peter Kyrouac

2023-02-03 15:37:03 +0000 UTC

AG - Alison Gill (co-host and owner of the Mueller She Wrote media company who hosts this podcast and others that she does (did) with Andrew) PIAT - Puzzle in a Thunderstorm (another group of podcasts and hosts Andrew is associated with)

bella ciao

2023-02-03 15:35:14 +0000 UTC

I suspect this is a dumb question, but what is AG and what is PIAT?

Dyan Dinstel

2023-02-03 15:12:04 +0000 UTC

Liz totally missed an opportunity to say that Tucker Carlson’s humanity was excised and is currently in the freezer next to the TV dinners.

Katie Byrum

2023-02-03 14:43:40 +0000 UTC

One thing that seems to get minimized a lot is that Andrew owns parts of and is legal counsel for PiaT and OA. That's going to chill any response from Thomas as those issues get resolved. It was a little easier for PiaT as Andrew was a minority shareholder.

DuncanForSC

2023-02-03 13:08:11 +0000 UTC

Thank you.

bella ciao

2023-02-03 12:54:55 +0000 UTC

Kind of shellshocked hearing the daily beans this morning and AG's statement. I do hope there's some statement posted here for patrons (also not on Facebook, not for years). I know likely there are legal reasons for maintaining silence. When you listen to podcasts, there's an intimacy and familiarity that comes with the medium (Marshall mccluhan, man...). So it does seem so out of character for Andrew to be accused of this, listening to him for so long and believing his sincerity as a progressive and ally for folks. I'm feeling a similar disbelief that I had to the Reply All debacle/fallout. I appreciate AG taking swift action to terminate the relationship, it's the right thing to do in the circumstances... and am also truly hoping none of the allegations are true (which is a huge cognitive dissonance for someone like me who knows how hard it is for women and people who are abused to come forward and be believed). Just... Ugh... Very sad about it all.

bella ciao

2023-02-03 12:49:31 +0000 UTC

For anyone wondering what happened who isn’t on Facebook this is what I could find https://religionnews.com/2023/02/01/american-atheists-board-members-exit-dogged-by-misconduct-allegations/

Jeff Mayse

2023-02-03 12:39:25 +0000 UTC

Which does nothing for us

Jeff Mayse

2023-02-03 12:38:51 +0000 UTC

I held off before canceling my subscription. So glad I did.

Oh, not another Subaru driver

2023-02-03 12:27:40 +0000 UTC

Aha! I'm not a patron of any of her shows, which explains how I didn't see it. Thank you!

Linzillard

2023-02-03 12:24:13 +0000 UTC

On the daily beans/msw/Jack patreon and on the cleanup on aisle 45 pateron

Jason Coughenour

2023-02-03 12:23:10 +0000 UTC

Where was AG's statement posted?

Linzillard

2023-02-03 12:15:15 +0000 UTC

Yes, the threading does appear to be borked at the moment.

Jason Coughenour

2023-02-03 11:22:38 +0000 UTC

I'm embarrassed at how long I held out hope for Silverman (especially with the hindsight of how far he fell and the despicable person he's turned out to be). But I just don't know what to think here. While I have a hard time believing that AG (and PIAT as well) would react this extremely over nothing, I simultaneously can't believe (or maybe dont want to believe) that it's plausible for Andrew to have done something warranting such a swift and decisive expulsion.

Jason Coughenour

2023-02-03 11:17:54 +0000 UTC

Oh . Oh well I hope justice is found whatever that means

John of the bankruptcy pirates

2023-02-03 10:47:34 +0000 UTC

Btw is Patreon threading messing up or is it me. I swear I have not been commenting randomly but that is what Patreon looks like I did

John of the bankruptcy pirates

2023-02-03 10:46:55 +0000 UTC

Oh . Oh well I hope justice is found whatever that means

John of the bankruptcy pirates

2023-02-03 10:43:02 +0000 UTC

So there's allegedly some explanation on Facebook but patrons are left in the dark? I've been a conscious objector to Facebook for nearly 2 decades now. I barely slept last night after the "official statement" from MSW Media/AG last evening. I've seen some stuff on Twitter, but feel like I'm finding vague shadows of the edges at best. What about the folks who for years have shelled out money to support you here? WTF is going on?

Jason Coughenour

2023-02-03 10:41:13 +0000 UTC

I'm trying to avoid bringing the mess on fb onto patreon. Several women have come forward accusing Andrew of sexual harassment.

Chris Kiser

2023-02-03 10:40:17 +0000 UTC

Oh I quit fb

John of the bankruptcy pirates

2023-02-03 10:36:28 +0000 UTC

The OA facebook group has several pinned posts explaining the situation

Chris Kiser

2023-02-03 10:17:58 +0000 UTC

Well done Thomas. I can't believe you managed to get an episode out despite all of waves hands this going on. Thinking of you and your immediate and wider podcasting family.

Ben Bayliss

2023-02-03 09:40:34 +0000 UTC

What happened to Andrew?

John of the bankruptcy pirates

2023-02-03 09:31:38 +0000 UTC

No intro?

127dot0dot0dot1

2023-02-03 08:54:35 +0000 UTC

OA687: Trump Sues Woodward, Gets Close to Making a Valid Legal Argument

Comments

This aged badly

Woah - leave Heath out of this!

Thank you for that.

Can't listen yet. Not ready

https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenArgs/comments/10rafuy/american_atheists_board_members_exit_dogged_by/j6ujkit/

@PeterinKorea Intention isn't everything. Just one factor among many.

Damnit:(

For those of you who don’t have Facebook and don’t have access to the full stories, you should check out this Google drive link, which some of the people who brought this to light are curating: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1jIFbWDxgY0ZyIB899GHeu_BjGRV7llCZ

Might be a good idea for some that are concerned to switch your support to dear old dads or serious inquiries only, or both. I like this new format so I will keep listening but I'm not sure I want that 50% to go to ...

I really hope the OA patreon community can come together and switch support to SIO or DOD. I want to show Thomas that in these difficult times, the joy he has brought to us for years isn’t lost on us, and I would love to get him through this in the small ways we can (financially).

I think that’s fair, but it has been only 24 hours, and the guy’s entire world has been turned upside down, so I’m cool with giving him a few days.

JFC the man's entire world has collapsed around him and your nitpicking about where he posts about it? Forgive me but this is utterly tone deaf. GO LISTEN TO THE AUDIO OF THOMAS. Once you do that, let me know if you still have this same nitpick.

It keeps getting worse!!!! 😭

Omfg. Fucking hell.

I was thinking the exact same thing….

If you pull support here and can afford to, join dear old dads, I think.

I dont think it can. https://seriouspod.com/andrew/

This is hard to listen to - so TW SA! https://seriouspod.com

Oh my god. I just heard his upload. Fucking hell.

Not just legal counsel, co-owner.

Umm if you knew what they have been dealing with, I can completely understand the less than perfect execution of communication on this. Please go listen to the audio Thomas posted here: (warning it is a DIFFICULT listen) https://seriouspod.com/andrew/

Please go listen to the audio thomas posted below, if you are able to.

We both were brother, but given the latest posting by Thomas, it's worse than I ever thought it could be.

This is an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT THING to listen to. If sexual assault triggers you, do not listen to it.

https://seriouspod.com/andrew/

I am incredibly busy at work and I don't currently have time for social media. I have no idea what is going on and it bothers me that there is information that Thomas and Andrew are making information available in other places that isn't available here to Patreon supporters.

I hope Andrew takes some time out to deal with things without taking out feelings on anyone in destructive ways. Patience, time, careful contrition and amends. Maybe hire professionals to help do it right.

Andrew has repeatedly been a creep towards women. If he comes back, I'm cancelling my Patreon

For those not on Facebook- it would be great if it could be addressed to patrons here… it would be appreciated.

Where is the statement?

He addressed it in the Facebook group

I am just so damn sad.

I hope you are right.

Believe women's perception, not men's intention.

Thanks for the link. I came to the comments because I was worried about Andrew and well.... god dammit.

Re dogged by vile accusations. I hope not. I don't think our community is like that mostly and if it does show up where people can see it , I expect louder voices will shout it down. I don't mean atheist. But the more humanist atheist who are audiences to these particular podcasts

Thank you, Thomas! I am disappointed regarding the news about Andrew, but I enjoyed the show with you and Liz.

Here’s a link to a reddit comment purporting to be Andrew’s statement. More details there as well. I’m pretty disappointed that Thomas would release this episode without having a statement or post or anything on the Patreon. https://reddit.com/r/OpenArgs/comments/10rafuy/_/j6ujkit/?context=1

Thank you, just started listening to the podcast and didn't catch up

I don't know if she's going to continue to work for Andrew.

Read the other comments.

“Does this mean he’s not coming on, then?” -James May

Is Andrew ok?

Does this mean the Q&A is cancelled?

I came here to figure out what happened, as Thomas was kinda vague, I was concerned he had a health issue or something.

Doesn't she work for Andrew? If so, yeah i dont think that will work.

She's great, and I like her style, but the other lawyer was really good talking at a speed us slow, non-lawyers, could follow along.

You summed my feelings up nicely. Bracing for the worst and hoping for the best.

Liz is a legal journalist, she is absolutely able and qualified to weigh in on that. I’m guessing she had almost no time to prepare for the episode so didn’t have a chance to look at the issue.

I think PiaT announced that they have cut ties, which may mean he no longer is legal counsel for them.

She read it on the Daily Beans podcast

Believe women

Yup. Andrew is going to be eating consequences for quite a while.

Thomas! Get Morgan Stringer as co-host!

Take this how you want, but I will be cancelling my Patreon if Andrew does not return.

Considering AGs history? I wouldn't expect her to have any forgiveness in this area. None at all

Thank you. Man, wow. My heart is kind of breaking.

Thinking of you Andrew and hope to see you soon

Question about the Hunter Laptop, if you could prove that Giuliani or Bannon knew, or later learned that some of the information on the Laptop was not authentic, could there be espionage charges in the future? Both seem to have unsavory connections to foreign governments.

Rabbit hole: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenArgs/comments/10rafuy/american_atheists_board_members_exit_dogged_by/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

AG= Allison Gill of MSW PiaT= Puzzle in a Thunderstorm

AG - Alison Gill (co-host and owner of the Mueller She Wrote media company who hosts this podcast and others that she does (did) with Andrew) PIAT - Puzzle in a Thunderstorm (another group of podcasts and hosts Andrew is associated with)

I suspect this is a dumb question, but what is AG and what is PIAT?

Liz totally missed an opportunity to say that Tucker Carlson’s humanity was excised and is currently in the freezer next to the TV dinners.

One thing that seems to get minimized a lot is that Andrew owns parts of and is legal counsel for PiaT and OA. That's going to chill any response from Thomas as those issues get resolved. It was a little easier for PiaT as Andrew was a minority shareholder.

Thank you.

For anyone wondering what happened who isn’t on Facebook this is what I could find https://religionnews.com/2023/02/01/american-atheists-board-members-exit-dogged-by-misconduct-allegations/

Which does nothing for us

I held off before canceling my subscription. So glad I did.

Aha! I'm not a patron of any of her shows, which explains how I didn't see it. Thank you!

On the daily beans/msw/Jack patreon and on the cleanup on aisle 45 pateron

Where was AG's statement posted?

Yes, the threading does appear to be borked at the moment.

Oh . Oh well I hope justice is found whatever that means

Btw is Patreon threading messing up or is it me. I swear I have not been commenting randomly but that is what Patreon looks like I did

Oh . Oh well I hope justice is found whatever that means

I'm trying to avoid bringing the mess on fb onto patreon. Several women have come forward accusing Andrew of sexual harassment.

Oh I quit fb

Well done Thomas. I can't believe you managed to get an episode out despite all of waves hands this going on. Thinking of you and your immediate and wider podcasting family.