The Fractured Self

For some reason it does remind me a bit of ChibiUsa(gi) vs Black Lady (from Sailor Moon - I know this place is kinda not the right one for this, but I just thought I'd throw this in). Still: I'd certainly like to see more of both - great work!

Igor

Perfection

I love this idea! Your description of how Alice and Shadow Alice should look and behave differently is perfect and I can't wait to see the artwork Omri and Joey create. The thing I love most about your writing on Shadow Alice is that Alice must accept and not actually defeat her to move forward. I think that Shadow Alice as the enemy that Alice prepares herself to defeat through out the game is great. Does Alice recognize herself as her enemy? Will Shadow Alice be called the Jabberwock at first? The possible twists through the story line as Alice learns about her "enemy" could be very interesting I think. To me the ending of Alice accepting Shadow Alice is so touching and true. I can almost hear the Cheshire Cat saying "Accept your shadow, Alice."

Hah yes and Lizzie resembles Maisie Williams. Her dad I'm trying to figure out. It's on the tip of my tongue. I wanted to say Keanu Reeves but I'm not quite sure. Alice I'm not so sure about.

I love what you wrote to Omri and i personally found it to be true. I'm way more impulsive now than I have ever been and it has certainly made me life feel more 'full'. I relish in the chaos of "I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm going to do it anyway", and accept that sometimes things fuck up. That is the nature of experiments. I'm always more happy with having done something that doesn't work out, than not having done it at all. On the subject of Alice, the merging of the two makes perfect sense and can be a sort of back story for Hysteria mode while also being an important life lesson that people can take with them. Thank you for saying all of this <3 The Liddell family portrait would be a pretty awesome collectible (and would look so good in my living room :b)

Suggestion: I've seen some ideas tossed around in regards to Lizzie, but I feel like a good angle would come from sibling resentment. I'm sure any younger sibling -- or one with a successful sibling -- feels resentment over their situation if their sibling is doing so much better than they are. Combine that with anxiety and not having a stable living environment, that can turn into an irrational obsession. And with trauma, especially, you do become obsessed with the idea why *you're* the unwell one and why you can't be like your sibling. Trauma can also make you not emotionally all over the place, but it can really create irrational thoughts and you can make some really scary conclusions. Maybe the same can apply in Alice's case. Lizzie could be a figure that she's desperately trying to appease and this figure is ignoring her, it's not saying anything, at all. And maybe that can be based on the fact Alice was tormented for a while that her sister ignored her and somehow gets it in her mind Lizzie was so upset that she chose to be silent. And with the shadow self, maybe this same mentality can be applied. Like, sometimes with mental illness and trauma, it's like you're hovering on a border between knowing that *this* particular thought is ridiculous and you know it's stupid. But your fears, worries, and anger continuously project you to this, like it's another part of you shoving you in this particular self-destructive direction. You know it's irrational, but you continue to make bad choices and catastrophoic conclusions and you don't know how to stop it. In therapy, yeah, they do definitely force you to confront it. They also practice deconstructing that thought process together and getting to the root of the issue. I think that is something that should be included as well as the concept of the shadow self.

In MR, Pris Witless says she's the one who got her working for Bumby and I don't really recall that he had any interaction with Alice in the Asylum, at least, so far. I've assumed Pris did this because she thought Bumby would be a good fit, since he was an understudy of Mr. Liddell.

QUESTION: So with bringing up the aspect of change and how people deal with it, as well as how Alice will have her freedom (to an extent of shadow) since everyone she loves is gone, I was curious if there’s any thought of how she may deal with the people in the asylum who abuse her? We’ve been given snippets of how she would sometimes thrash and act out towards the orderlies, but what about in wonderland? Did Alice perhaps have a mini battle with say tweedle dee and tweedle dum for mistreating her as a way to deal with the pain of their mistreatment? Since she was restricted by medicine among other things from actually doing anything. Basically I’m curious if there will be equal real world to wonderland reactions to things such this? Also just to clarify, Bumby is only present once she enters the children’s home correct? I don’t know if it’s ever mentioned, but I’ve always wondered how she was placed with Bumby and it if he visited her in the asylum. And if so did he take advantage of her there as well? Side note, yes please too the portrait! Love all the art made for Alice!

Tori

SUGGESTION- What if, as you progress through the game, once in awhile Alice would merge with her shadow Alice to become more powerful? Briefly accepting that darker side but once the crisis is over she doesn't want to become like that and rejects shadow Alice and they split again? Could happen towards the end of the game and maybe more frequently as she starts to accept this side of her?

You guys are creative geniuses, I love reading through your thought process because you guys put so much thought into every detail. I am obsessed with this family portrait, I really hope you offer it with a frame for Patrons!

Would love a Liddell family portrait!!!

I love this idea!

SUGGESTION. Can the queen of hearts have a main plot where shes weak early on but later on taking on lizzies figure giving her powers (for some plot reason). I feel like there should be a strong reason for her Lizzie figure since if she is a monster like this it would be a plot confusion.

Saleh Abu-Rashid

Yes she represents a sort of coming of age so she would be older in appearance then little Alice or main Alice

Suggestion in terms of in-game dialogue and Shadow Alice - look up some examples of Gestalt therapy with self-self experiential work. (Coming from a present mental health processional who has been a fan of the games since I played the first on PC when I wasn't much older than Alice is supposed to be in this game now. You could say I have always had an interest in the experiential and altered state corners of mental health work. So I grew up and made a career out of it.)

QUESTION: Is Shadow Alice different from 7-Year-Old Alice / Malice?

SUGGESTION: If the (secret) goal is to get Alice and Shadow Alice to work together and accept one another as two parts of the same being, what if at different points in the game, we alternated between playing Alice and playing Shadow Alice, without the game explicitly stating that this is what's happening? Alice might have items, skills, and dresses that enhance her defences, speed and movement, and stealth because she wants to run or hide, representing the instinctual Flight response. Shadow Alice, meanwhile, would have the big, flashy attacks with which to lash out and rage against the world that had, and was still, wronging her. She would be the Fight response. It would take both sides, and all their skills and items, however, to eventually confront the corrupted, twisted versions of her family for the last time, and put them sufficiently to rest in Alice's mind to move forward and begin to reassemble her shattered psyche. Because remember, she's still in a coma in reality. She still has to go through the fires of 'AMA' and 'AMR.'

Print - yes please!!!

That concept for shadow Alice is really good idea ! Legalize drugs and murder attitude !!!!! And is it just me or Alice's mother in the portrait looks exactly like Natalie Portman x)

IMO, but it seemed like Alice didn't quite understand what Bumby was doing with her sister, in terms of being a predator. I don't think any girl that age knows what that's like and you really don't get a grasp of it until you get older, like Lizzie. I'm speaking from experience.

I absolutely love the idea of having a portrait in the house <3 !! I was just thinking about where i put the journal from the first game, i think i might have lost it :(

I could definitely go for that portrait. Omri’s Art is Spectacular!!

love the idea of the Liddle family portrait!

I like this one from The Second Coming (1919) by Yeats. Perhaps it fits: "The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand;" At least it reminds me of the black flood in the intro to Madness Returns. I heard about it by watching Flynn Carson ;)

Make Nine Inch Nails great again

I find the Shadow Alice idea quite interesting. These are my thoughts regarding the reason this evil entity could have appeared: Bumby liked Lizzie, but she rejected him, so he burnt down Liddell's house as a revenge. As a result Alice could unwillingly blame Lizzie for everything happened. At the same time she realises that Lizzie is just the victim like she is, therefore Alice blames herself for blaming Lizzie. Attempting to get out of this vicious circle she unintentionally creates her shadow twin to take all the blame, because Alice is not ready to accept that she is not the sweet little sister she used to think she is. Eventually, Shadow Alice starts to consume not only guilt, but other deep dark emotions the real Alice is not ready to deal with. The Shadow becomes powerful enough to conquer the Wonderland in an attempt to replace the real Alice.

Omg 😲 please yes to the Liddell family portrait!!! Oval and no burns please just the family it’s a beautiful picture!!!

Eggyweggy

I'd love a family portrait and think the idea of shadow alice is brilliant. The idea of fighting with your self and seeing which side ultimately wins. I love it.

I would love the family portrait in a frame, that will be awesome. I love the idea of shadow Alice and how normal Alice doesn't simply overcome her, but must merge with her in order to survive. Every time you explain more of the plot I crave more information. This game is going to be brilliant! I'm so happy to be able to enjoy the ride along the way 😁

I vote YES for the portrait ! :)

Would love a family portrait in any form! Gregory's idea around alice 'unlocking' the chaotic forms of herself is great!

The idea that Alice must 'unlock' Rage, hysteria etc by defeating them is excellent, nice job!

I think this whole response counts as a SUGGESTION…I love the idea of Shadow Alice as the enemy behind it all, and wonder if perhaps she would dispatch Hysteria, Rage, and the 7 yo ‘Chains & Fire’ Alice as “sub-bosses” to fight Alice who would have to defeat each of these darker aspects of her nature to master them? Perhaps as each one is defeated, their abilities (rage mode, etc) are unlocked as a gameplay reinforcement of the story/psychological events? As for Shadow Alice’s appearance, I don’t think there’s any character I am as excited to see the art for as her. I can’t help but picture a creature (like the Balrog) of “shadow and flame”; darkened, cracked, ashy skin like a log that’s been in a fire for a long time with the faint shimmer of glowing embers bleeding through her shattered skin…all of which would of course erupt into torrents of fire in battle, consuming Shadow Alice like fire consumes wood. Of course, I have no doubt the art that comes back will far surpass my own idea!

TL;DR: Alice in her older, current state is in actuality her shadow self, and her younger self was more of her true self, her fertile picture of self-actualization (pre-fire). Finding outfits and ways to channel her feelings are ways to justify and defend this notion and so avoid confronting who she actually was, and still deep down wants to be. Suggestion: Try to think of what Alice was like at the age and phase she was at before the fire. Having a almost 4 year old growing up around me, I have noticed he, and kids in general, for a long time learn, develop, and pattern themselves off what they see on a normal, regular basis within their home. They look up to mum and dad as the perfect examples of what they should strive to be. Taking that into consideration, shadow alice is the culmination of what she saw, experienced, and learned from her parents for a long time. In a way when you think of it, what you call shadow alice, "Younger Alice" is actually still at a point where she was becoming someone molded by the family experiences, and what they were culturing in her. If the family itself was a normal, fairly quiet family without horrible issues and horror stories, then young alice, before the fire, would be of that state. And then AFTER the fire, after losing her world, really, she is no longer able to have comfort, repetition, a sense of home, a guiding principal to look to, a gentle hand to guide her, or people she is close to to respect and follow. She is both completely FREE of the things that bind her, and longing for it. I guess... to me the alice we all know and play IS the shadow alice. the malevolent entity formed from the ashes of such a huge trauma, and unable to reconcile with her old pre-fire self. What A flip that would be. always avoiding and fearing young alice, calling her a shadow self, an evil being, when in reality she is just rejecting that self, that controlled, innocent piece of her, and instead relishing in the chaotic benign, dark part of herself that she never knew or could let thrive back when she was with her family. Be it necessity or forced, her dark self was repressed or ignored in childhood, and so no way to see it, understand it, or even recognize it. Her darkness doesn't recognize her child self anymore than her youth cannot recognize her current state. both feel alien in the other's eyes. WRONG. Then it is a matter of what is the tie that binds.. where is common ground.. a point where the two can connect, transect one another, and find commonality to join and heal. Would it be old Doc Bumby? Did she, for a glimpse of a moment, actually wish her family to die and be gone? was she deep down faintly harboring a love for never having to wear those boring clothes, go to those boring places, speak when spoken to, be seen and not heard? I would LOVE for the idea of stemming such darkness from a lot of the old draconic ways children should "be" . I am sure this is not at all what you guys are shooting for, rather, you seem on a very stern tract going forward. But the fact you keep drawing shadow alice as an older, darker, more disturbed version seems to steer towards the darker more violent versions of Alice as her older self... Funny that. The outfits she is having through this game all seem to stem from a specific emotion, and both have a certain look and functionality that channels it in a useful way to Alice (not necessarily to anyone else..) . They exist to justify, and let her explain away, how this is her true self and this is what she shall always be. It is kind of like when a Lost teen is searching for "who am I" and rejects what they were prior, an identity built without such deep cognitive thought and self awareness. They continue with harsh and sometimes random or 'uncharacter-like' changes to their style, their personality, their being. What suits them now, since obviously who they were before couldn't POSSIBLY be right.

Sterling Treadwell

Excited to see Joey's take on shadow Alice. I know we've seen one version from Omri already.

This is a great idea!

I would love to have a Liddell family portrait in my collection. I think that the picture would be really amazing on the inner lid of a pocket watch. The watch would really fit both the time period and the white rabbit had a watch as well

I’ve been a Patreon subscriber? for a bit now but I haven’t really taken advantage of commenting and stuff yet. Shadow Alice is a really cool concept to me. That being said I’m struggling to think of what to put on my coin and thinking something about a shadow could be cool if it’s relevant. Anyone have any ideas?

The Lizzie boss looks interesting and full of potential SUGGESTION: maybe Alice has to climb up the monster like shadow of the colossus where there's a huge monster with spots to inflict damage I'd happily have the Liddell family portrait in my house SUGGESTION: perhaps the frame can me a little burnt around the edges. Also am I the only one who thinks that Lizzie looks like Nancy from stranger things in this art? That's all from me Bye

Shadow Alice sounds like a really interesting concept. Omri's family portrait is lovely, as long as I suppress my memories of their boss forms. That picture has been a pretty important symbol in the games thus far. I think if it were to be offered to Patrons it'd be more interesting to see it as a locket with photo inside or like in a miniature folding frame, think a daguerreotype or Carte de visite.

Anna Lepper

Wow..that really was an incredible description of the shadow self..this is intensely relatable and I think it is absolutely perfect for this game you painted the picture of how Alice becomes her true self in the first two games just by talking about what the shadow self means to all of us 💙 I cannot wait to see Shadow Alice this idea is incredible. I would love the family portrait💘

If you ever need more help with the design work on the wiki, I could help out. Love working with css and UI.

I cannot even begin to describe how much I love this concept. You have such a beautiful mind. Also I would love to have that family portrait.

I think it should go without saying everything shadow Alice likes revolves around what regular Alice fears. Fire to be specific, and since in the second game it's shown deep down Alice knew what happened to her sister. She bring that up throwing it in alices face. But it could also be done that the shadow cares about her. Sure the things the dark side of every one whispers to them are usually wrong. But its goals must be questioned, it wants you to yell at someone to help you. Steal to help you lie to help you. So maybe at the climax shadow Alice deems Alice worthy of her strengths, everything she put Alice through to make her stronger to prepare her to face the man who ruined her life. And when they merge becomes alices literal shadow. And maybe as a teaser we get the doctors POV of his death with alices shadow grinning and blinking.

Chance Houston

That is a terrifying concept, I absolutely love it ,and I don't need my sleep tonight anyway.

Lucas Severin