'Kok Blocked

Ahah glad to be of service. It has been a setback, that's for sure, but that's what you needed and now that you are back on track (the right track) I'm way more positive. Always remember that what you're working towards isn't an easy task at all, many have failed before you or left things half done (which is the same). I didn't notice the contestants were randomly generated and yes, I also think 4 consistent NPCs would have been the right choice (for many reasons). Good luck, I'll always be here bothering you with my comments :P

Enrico

Hey JP, they thing to remeber here is that we're supporting a game that's not even in early Alpha. To be honest, we're backing a game that's in Tech Demo at Best. In my opinion, Crush has fallen victim to one of the curses of patreon style development which is a rush to produce story content before actually having a game engine to hang that story content on. I'd much rather have a game that has the framework in place to be completed, rather than a game where the rush to fulfill story content for patreon backers pushes the Dev intoa situation where the game ends up abandoned halfway through because every encounter has to be custom coded because there's no game engine in place.

... and the StG 44 has an SVT-38 somewhere in its immediate ancestry, and the SA80 program stuck the gas parts from that onto the bolt carrier assembly from an AR18.

Jumpy James Johnson Junior

JP, I truly appreciate the support, but if that's the way you feel I'd rather you dropped to 0 now, and support it when you feel like it's back on track. I don't want anybody to feel like they're giving me money for nothing.

Crushstation

https://www.patreon.com/posts/major-coming-39252155 Completely weirded out many of the supporters.

BL4DE

Dropped my pledge from 5 to 1, with the potential to go to nothing if this current train wreck continues. If the story hasn't progressed before November rolls around I'm sorry but I'm not just going to keep giving you money for nothing.

The worst thing for Bangkok is not getting there. That trumps any bad writing. As a writer, I revise and edit relentlessly. There is no reason you cannot get us to Bangkok, then go back and rework the story to something better with time. I mean, all of these engine changes are going to wipe out saved games anyway, what's the big deal with having people replay Bangkok once the experience is improved?

Anand

I have no idea what you INTEND or WANT to do. I can only inform myself about your motives by your actions. It feels (to me) like you're working on everything EXCEPT advancing the plot. Every single nuance and detail that is not actually getting her on a plane to Bangkok, where she is seducing another passenger or finger banging a stewardess. Where she is coerced to pleasure the club manager before she can work her first shift.

Anand

Crush, to be fair, an AK47 is a dumbed down version of an StG 44.

Koopatroopa187

Stripping out dead weight is not what needs doing though. You need to actually create the entire system and then use it before doing anything else. That's what pre-alpha means. That would mean that you write out the entire base gameplay loop for Bangkok and the story with only the absolute fundamentals and nothing else. The nothing else includes avatar, changing clothes, specialty skills not used in the main story, and other things like that. But if you're not going to do that, then there's still other things that need to be said. For a visual example, there is a game called Due Process that is coming out soon. This is what it looked like in 2014: https://youtu.be/PBvStjSoeV0 And this is what it looks like now: https://youtu.be/_dcjCT3n1qg If you were to watch the gameplay sections of these videos, you would see how the game is essentially the same between both versions, the new version just looks a lot prettier. The gameplay in 2014 more or less works completely as a product, you could theoretically release it just like that it just doesn't look nice. That's pre-alpha. If you were to do this, you would get the entirety of the Bangkok gameplay finished and then afterwards start adding in the side quests and the specializations and the options later. In playing the last release of Female Agent, I actually don't think there was that much dead weight mechanically/systematically. Most of the dead weight was narrative: A long introduction that got longer and longer but most of which had little to no impact on the actual game or story, many of the choices inside not being actual choices but clicking simulators that took you to the next screen. So again, re-writing this speeds up the introduction for players, but I don't think it actually contributes towards your ability to get to Bangkok. I want to re-highlight what I said about the skills in my original post because it's very important. I don't actually think you need to cut down on them because you never actually used them. We don't know their effectiveness or their bloat because they were never used by the player at any point. Driving: never used. Swimming: never used. Administration: never used. Gun skills: never used. Nationality: only ever brought up in flavor text, never impactful or necessary to reference. A great example of this last one is the MI6 card at the traffic pullover. Whether you use that card or not, it takes the same number of clicks/screens to get to the next scene. And I'm not saying these things have no place in the game, but that because we never got to the actual gameplay where these things could be implemented they seem pointless and convoluted. And *only* for that reason do these things seem so. The complexity/number of skills is not an issue in writing either because you just need to reference the correct skill at the correct time. Having a large number of skills does not make it take longer to write a scene than having a small number of skills. It's an easy thing to write out an entire scene and have *optional* choices that say, "If agent has high gun skills, they can do X" or "If agent has high Muay Thai, they can do Y." Which looks exactly the same as, "If agent has high Dexterity, they can do X," or "If agent has high Strength, they can do Y." Writing out the scene takes exactly the same amount of time. The difference between the two don't even have to vary in language at all. The only thing that changes is whether it's a "gun skills or Muay Thai" call in the code or a "Dexterity or Strength" call in the code. In other words: reworking these things is just another example of refining for the sake of refinement. Reworking the skills and other gameplay elements does not meaningfully contribute to furthering the development of your game. The system works *as is.* The system was just never used. And this system does not stand in the way of community contribution. Your rework will have exactly the same number of barriers for community contribution, the main ones being: work ethic (the actual desire to follow through on an idea and write a scene for the game), writing talent, and how easy it is to submit said content to your team to put into the game. To conclude: If you want to do this "properly", then by all means, take your time to rework the game and do a full pre-alpha build, not just a "more refined" introduction. Finish your whole game without the bells and whistles. Lets see how it runs and then we'll start adding the fancy stuff back in. If you're not going to do that, then update the avatar if you have to but the system does not need as much work as you think it does. As far as the avatar goes, I really like the old art style a lot but if it's as much trouble as you say it is to implement and layer then I completely understand the reasons why you need to change to a different system. If it really is that complicated to add new outfits and code outfit changes in the game, then it needs doing. But you don't have to completely revamp the rest of the game. This is a waste of time that could be spent working on the next stage.

hornguy6

Thanks BL4DE, but huh what post? I'm a weird guy so it's helpful to know when I'm being especially weird

Crushstation

Hey RH, thanks sincerely for being a supporter – you helped make Female Agent! I hope we can win you back in the future. I would like to address the dumbing down fear – that's not my intent at all. I do intend to cut out some features/story elements that I think are too fiddly or overcomplex – but the aim is to make something much leaner and meaner. e.g. a Kalashnikov is not a dumbed down version of a musket. (Very happy to talk more about this in a dev post if that would be helpful). Regarding courage I agree with you 100%. It's what I feel I was (subconsciously) lacking before when I stuck doggedly to the plan instead of having the courage to deliver the bad news that I had led the project to a bad position and that we needed to stop and reörg before we could keep delivering content. Please do check in sooner than a year because it's not gonna take that long to start seeing results.

Crushstation

I'm actually afraid you'll all run away *unless* I get to the weird stuff, you've all been very patient with me. :-) You are so right about the project being on the right direction. From my perspective it feels like we're in a totally new phase, I'm really excited about it and I'm sure it's what has been needed for a while.

Crushstation

Y'know one of your comments to this effect, while I was trying to make Dubai work but failing, was one of the first big cracks in my armour. MFAGA is partly your fault but thanks Enrico, it's the right thing to do :-D In theory yeah while we're updating scenes we can clean up narrative while we're cleaning up code; the only reason I don't want to say "hell yeah" to this is that I don't want to get bogged down polishing scenes that are basically good (and Miss Wet T specifically is a good scene in general). That said, that particular sequence has some of the dirtiest code in the game (mostly around the randomly-generated female contestants). It would be faster to actually write four consistent NPCs here than to recode an NPC contestant generator, so we probably will tighten up the narrative at least a little bit here. I'll post an update when we're getting ready to attack it.

Crushstation

If you keep posting challenging things I'll have to keep deleting them...just kidding, and thanks for retyping this because it's important. Your point's valid. I think your diagnosis is right, we need to strip down and build a faster leaner version that works, and build in the width later. This is essentially what I'm trying to do with MFAGA – strip out the stuff that is dead weight, and build a simpler more confident story. (As a patron put it recently: accept I can't make Skyrim, but I can make Mass Effect.) Your post reminded me of an old rock song. "If there's a new way/I'll be the first in line/But it better work this time."

Crushstation

I get why you think that (and fear of not being able to address that criticism is honestly one of the big reasons I was desperate not to make the big changes we're currently working on). Is your concern that I don't *want* or *intend* to move the story past Oceana? Maybe there's an issue here I could explicitly address in a dev post?

Crushstation

Anand, the reason I don't want to progress it from here is that I wrote it into a bad position that is forcing me into a direction that is the wrong direction for Bangkok. (There is a draft floating around of my intended "Intro to Bangkok" section and it's FUCKING BORING because it continues at the same pace with the same lack of urgency established in the briefing section.)

Crushstation

Thanks JJ. I saw that then, and an idea similar to what you're suggesting was proposed by a team member as part of the discussions this week – something kind of like Mass Effect Genesis where instead of playing through the Lifepath, you pick from a list of options from checkboxes (e.g. whether you were a Rock Chick or a Geek Girl at high school, whether you won or lost Miss Wet T-Shirt, etc). It's a good idea, but it doesn't address the plot problems I want to hit (at least not in a way the player would experience). Let me know if that's unclear and I'll try to draw it out in a dev post next week.

Crushstation

12,000 words? Hahaha I talk too much :-D

Crushstation

As Cofi suggests, the character creator's nearly ready for release as the first example of that.

Crushstation

Thanks DrT, for the suggestion and the encouragement! I completely agree with your suggestion and in fact I think we could get into a nice fast rhythm of updates soon, releasing a scene update every few weeks until we're ready for Bangkok. FINGERS CROSSED

Crushstation

Right! The scene could be repurposed, it just needs to be made either (a) relevant to the plot or (b) less of a big deal so the player can skip it if the heroine isn't interested. The core experience (the heroine is wined and dined by a businessman, who doesn't know who she really is) is something, it was just executed poorly

Crushstation

Yeah, it's hard to make a scene interesting when it isn't relevant to the plot. I should have cut it forever ago, but I tried too hard to keep it just because it existed

Crushstation

Agree for the most part. Aside from the canceling that is. For now I won't cancel the support due to lack of progress since in my eyes a period of probation is in order first. For me this probation period has been started last month with his ...frankly weird "I'm not dead but I will have to tell you something important. In the future!" post.

BL4DE

I'm as afraid as the next guy that you are just looking for another excuse not to do Bangkok. Maybe you are afraid that we will all run away once you pack out the weird stuff or something (I won't). But I also think you are finally moving in the right direction again. Not adding another Pre-Bangkok scene, another system, another requested feature. Over the last years the game has accumulated things that in retrospect add little to the game but the burden of maintaining them. That's natural, and cutting or simplifying them is the right choice to regain momentum. I just hope that once you have that momentum you use it to get straight to Bangkok, not to run another lap around the introduction.

Cofi

Boh, as long as it gets you to produce variable content *quickly* and doesn't need that content to be dumbed down.. and since you are there updating and the system is now designed to easily add content (right?), you can try add some options to the Miss Wet T-Shirt MCs that couldn't get to the first place (or want to be there :P)

Enrico

Something made my earlier comment disappear, so I'm going to type it out again. Creating a good foundation for the game to be able to easily make content moving forward is important and certainly not a bad thing. However, the reason why it is concerning is because you are constantly reworking things. This is a post from almost 2 years ago exactly: https://www.patreon.com/posts/20286517 Do you notice how your plans from back then are almost eerily similar to what they are currently? You've been caught in an endless development and feedback loop these last few years. You've just been working and reworking your foundations over and over because you've been dissatisfied with it yourself. You talked about how the character creation variables were too complex to use but the truth is that you never used a single one of them for a skill check of any kind because you never got to a stage in the game where they were actually implemented. The worry here is that we're going to be back here 2 years from now if/when you say that you are unsatisfied with the current foundation of the game's system and you end up reworking it again. And that's not an unrealistic hypothesis because this is not even the second time this has happened. If you really are going to start over, you need to do it properly. Build a pre-alpha. Go all the way through and complete something that works without any bells or whistles. On your discord in the fa-discussion channel, there was a great message about this written by Wildtexan on August 01, 2020. I suggest looking at that. And I really hope you actually get to the core gameplay of your game at some point.

hornguy6

If he doesn't rework and play with old content, then he will have to make progress and for some reason, he is completely opposed to progressing the plot and story. In fact, he's now talking about thinning the existing plot and removing "features" as "development progress".

Anand

So, no Bangkok this year. Maybe next year, although I am sure by then you will find a way to iterate again by then. I'm not disappointed because I haven't seen any indication that this project is going anywhere. I do appreciate your honesty but I do think you're prioritizing the engine (once, again) at the expense of the game.

Anand

There's a recent artwork sneak-peek of the character creator for operator level backers. The UI looks great, and I think as soon as the rough corners (or round hips?) of the new character model get worked out we will see some juicy updates

Cofi

Reposting this next bit from when you originally posted your plan: “I'm gonna echo a lot of what people are saying here and that it's better to move forward with your story. Take these great ideas and ways to streamline your development and push it toward the main story of the game. Let's just call the current game a prequel and retrofit it to the new engine and story later.” Instead reworking old content, add the choices from the old FA as part of your character creation. This way you can move forward with your story and also keep the old FA as a prequel that drives character creation of FA part Deux: Bangkok. This builds the variables you need when you integrate and you won’t have to revisit the past. Your current build of FA is great, you wouldn’t have the support that you do if it wasn’t but it’s time to move forward. You have to accept that you built a great game even though under the hood it’s flawed. No one sees those flaws but you. Take a step back and realize that reworking old content would make the game marginally better whereas new content is substantively better.

This delay, which is mentioned here, is by no means made easy. One has to consider. Crush posts his plan on Discord and invites you to debate. Afterwards, a heated discussion breaks out among the persons concerned, who each bring their views on the matter until a consensus is found if possible or, ideally, crush themselves to choose the best or the currently feasible from the expressed. In one of three large discussion threads on Discord alone, more than 400 articles have been published since Wednesday with more than 12,000 words (excluding graphics, images, diagrams, smilies). many other levels of communication are not even considered. I can understand people who urge rapid progress. I have been following FA for 3 years myself. But I also see what everything is being worked on. And let's not forget the wishes of the users, who have always inflated FA. The return to the actual game, i.e. only 5 and not 15 nationalities, the structuring and redesigning of the writing processes and much more help the game, but also require patience - and the contributions in front of me really give me hope.

Falloutbabe

A fantastic project update. I feel as if I am looking at a report from a PMP cert holder. Some light comments from a layperson: I personally support because I am interested in the content of FA. I do not mind the project taking longer to be delivered as long as the promise of the content I want remains at the end. I do however, note that projects requiring continual funding must strike a balance between maintaining continual interest, and thus funding, and delivering "ideal" product. I will continue to support regardless, but I do suggest considering whether it is time for interest maintenence beyond a fantastic, but by-nature sterile, report. I can only speak for myself, but I have the impression that I have not seen any "tactile" updates in a notable period of time. While I understand that the game itself might not be a satisfying demonstration of the hard work you are putting in, due to the nature of the current product backlog item(s), some alternatives might be artwork or in-development storyline teasers, something content-focused and exciting. I hope this helps. I am not a project manager myself, and would not be surprised if this is either already well known, or subpar, ill-advice. Just my attempt to submit some thoughts. Good luck, and thank you for your work.

TheDrTelos

the sort of story that happened in Dubai could still happen in Bangkok with some tailoring, could be a good intro. obvs not important atm but somewhere down the line, could be.

I have never had much interest in the Dubai stuff, so I don’t mind it getting cut.

Notalie Portman