If I Were King: An Addendum to the Apple River Video
Added 2024-08-07 10:28:25 +0000 UTCI decided to make a little (well, it's 1 Hr 16 Mins) followup to the last video for Patrons now Nic Miu has been sentenced where I explain how I would have gone about judging the case if it were only up to me.
This is something between a Commentary and a proper video. Just speaking as myself and walking you through my own subjective logic, but pre-written and with visual aids when helpful so you can decide whether or not you see things the same way.
Happy to keep chatting about it below if you have any questions or counterpoints - So maybe best to stay away from the comments until watching if you don't want my ultimate opinions spoiled. Thanks as always for your support!
DM Me if you have any issues with the player.
Comments
But i do get your retribution point. I could be brought down to 10 years, but i keep coming back to Isaac and thinking about how he died and how he was killed and it makes me so angry and sad. So i understand.
Nithin
2025-09-28 09:43:44 +0000 UTC5 years with time served is insane. This guy killed a motherfucker. almost killed another two. You can’t have people who act like that just walking around in society.
Nithin
2025-09-28 09:37:33 +0000 UTCi really understand your point about bias here. I keep switching here but i’ve settled on sympathizing more with the teenagers being silly and annoying not in any way deserving the escalation that Nick caused, and then reacting based on their gut.
Nithin
2025-09-28 09:35:58 +0000 UTC“Monday-morning quarterbacking” is such an amazing phrase, never heard that one before
Stephen Hoyle
2025-09-03 21:43:29 +0000 UTCOne thing you touched on that I could see going the other way: the idea that every stab means the next one is less defensible. I could just as easily imagine being in that situation and feeling the “barrier to entry” of each stab being lower and lower each time I thrust the knife. Like “I already stabbed one/two/etc people and they still won’t leave me alone, gotta do stab two/three/etc to get them away!” Not that I necessarily agree with that line of thinking, but in that moment, who knows how you’d respond? I think that might be how he was thinking, which is why he made those harder to justify stabs.
SpergGurtDirt
2025-09-03 20:04:18 +0000 UTCCompletely agree with you on this one, though I’d go for 10 years. I remember when watching the video I originally sided with the teens, especially after Nicks first interview with police. He spewed so much bullshit there, made himself look really bad. But then again that doesn’t really change the situation he found himself in, and I too argue that from his POV, he was at times most certainly in fear of great bodily harm or even death. Its such an unfortunate scenario all together… anyone could have tried de-escalating the situation, with so many people there you’d think someone would have a good idea.
Peta Baipeta
2025-07-10 10:47:57 +0000 UTCI thought the teens were very annoying and probably would’ve made me mad, but I’m one to think there should be a strict definition on self defense. In this country, everyone has guns. I’ve seen people frivolously point weapons and people without regard for human life and Many around me in a similar area are just itching for confrontation and to have an excuse to hurt or kill. Perhaps in some cases people think it’s too strict. But think of the gravity of the situation. One kid died, and several more could’ve died as well. There needs to be strict legal scrutiny on these cases. De-escalation must be top priority for everyone because otherwise lives will be lost quickly without second thought.
Ember Bennett
2025-05-31 14:37:02 +0000 UTCI think he should have served some time, but had a much lesser sentence. He was an immature (drunk) dude and unable to rise above the taunts of the "kids" , but nevertheless ended up surrounded. The argument that he shouldn't have been there in the first place is weak, imo. Through a series of drunken events, he ended up surrounded and was ganged up on. He didn't go into that situation looking to kill and stab, he just wanted to find his snorkeling gear.
Katherine Bellantone
2025-04-21 22:23:26 +0000 UTCI very much agree, interestingly. 5 years without time served I’d say.
Jan Müller
2024-12-14 02:00:20 +0000 UTCFirstly your points about bias are spot on. I especially noticed what you mentioned about it in the comment section of the original video - some people seemed to view the perpetrators as children with less agency and judged Nic heavily for that, whereas others saw them as bullies and Nic more sympathetically. And I think we have the same biases (or you are REALLY good at making people believe you agree with them). I think people saying they can't understand Nic's actions at all haven't been in situations like that, or are selectively doling out empathy. And I also agree that even with this bias, much of what Nic did was legally indefensible. Give him as many outs and benefits of the doubt as you will, there's no way he doesn't deserve to spend a lot of time in jail. Secondly, I admit you caught me off guard with the 5 years time served opinion at the end. When I thought about rehabilitation and future threat, I can see why you can see that and came around to your way of thinking. However, I think that's TOO heavy on giving Nic the benefit of the doubt. To me, there are two factors I think you need to consider, so that 10 years is less "twist your arm" and 20 years is more reasonable. These two factors are: 1. Nic did not announce that he had the knife beforehand, or any time during the altercations. Regardless of whether or not he "checked" it, everything after the first stab was preventable if Nic spoke up. His English does not need to be perfect. He can shout "Knife! Knife!" and do this. He may not have been thinking clearly, but you said it best - every millisecond that passes is more damning for him. And that leads into the second thing. 2. Nic did NOTHING after the fact. He knew he stabbed several people, but didn't call authorities, didn't tell his friend, didn't do anything. He then lied his ass off to police a day later, well after having time to think the situation over and clear his mind. Give Nic all the benefit of the doubt you reasonably can, but these two factors do not paint the picture of a man who might not do this again. These paint the picture of a guy with little remorse over his actions. And again, this comes from a guy who DOES already empathize with Nic; I've been bullied, have problems with pride and arrogance, and "spazzed out" more than I can remember. I just think 5 years is way too light when you put the whole picture together. The prosecution's belief that he should get effectively life is also too extreme, given that again he was heavily antagonized. Honestly, I think the judge's ruling was on the long side but very reasonable. I still think the same thing as the original video. What a shitshow all around.
bromeatmeco
2024-12-13 13:05:06 +0000 UTCWhen it comes to Juries, I think they should have to study the basics of law/criminology etc, like they do in some European countries. It is paid and compulsory and employers have no say. You only have to look at the outcome of elections to know how the general public think!😆
XxSamiexX
2024-12-13 03:38:52 +0000 UTCgonna have to use "the pube of time" XD
Eyeless Iris
2024-11-03 00:23:19 +0000 UTCAbsolutely! Not to mention the horrific rapes that happen all the time that guards do nothing about. Its so easy to drop all empathy for criminals when their punishment is happening behind closed doors, and its not you or a loved one getting the boot.
Vent
2024-10-29 17:29:53 +0000 UTCI think AJ needed to go before Isaac idk lmao I just hate the way he talks
alper kabo
2024-10-08 14:33:32 +0000 UTCThe river stabbings has to be one of your best videos, precisely because it's such a tough judgment call. And I think your "let's talk this through" approach to weighing each angle works really well. Despite the length of the video I was enthralled with the proceedings.
Jonathan Gill
2024-10-05 19:46:43 +0000 UTCIt was at his sentencing before the sentence was handed down, which is customary. You can't really give a tearful apology for your actions while testifying in your defense as that's easy to read as conceding guilt, which is the very notion you're fighting against at that time.
Matt Orchard
2024-09-27 05:37:58 +0000 UTCWas that video at the end after he was sentenced? Would’ve meant more if he said that on the stand. It was sincere, but if that was after he was sentenced…I just find it “interesting”
Big B
2024-09-27 01:02:14 +0000 UTCGreat follow-up. I think you were pretty much spot-on with everything you said about Miu's guilt. I would only acquit him of any charge relating to the stabbing of Ryhley Mattison: since we don't see the stabbing or the immediate circumstances leading up to it, I don't feel comfortable convicting on the basis of "We don't really know what happened." Mattison herself is no help: she remembers being stabbed and won't swear to anything else. While in a one-on-one confrontation with Mattison I find it hard to see how Miu would ever be in reasonable fear of his life, in a circumstance where it's potentially him versus twelve or thirteen people, I can see how Mattison's actions could have led him to fear that, while he was struggling with her, someone else might run up and punch him in the back of the head or otherwise try to double-team him. I think it's reasonable to imagine that Mattison had punched him, grabbed him, tried to scratch out his eyes, or done something else that, while not alone a threat to his life or a threat of great bodily injury, could have left him vulnerable to being ganged up on like he had been just seconds ago. But you've convinced me that every stabbing after Mattison's was criminal, and ultimately I'm comfortable with nailing him for reckless homicide.
Anonymous
2024-09-25 01:42:48 +0000 UTCI appreciate this commentary. I would say, until the individuals in the potential mob pile-on are no longer advancing, deadly force is still reasonable. Just like with Aaron, Nic didn’t stab Riley after chasing her down. One smaller female smacking your head might not be much, but it is one person advancing from behind. When he turns to get rid of whoever is behind him, more are advancing behind from the other side. I don’t know that he wasn’t thinking straight so much as he was swinging on anyone coming towards him until they stopped. It’s super unfortunate, but they are a life threatening mob until they are no longer an advancing mob.
Jessica Lipscomb
2024-09-19 03:14:21 +0000 UTCI was originally appalled at your recommendation of 5 years, but your explanation really made sense to me and brought me almost all the way around. 2 years in the Peace Corps changes people's entire worldviews. 4 years gets most people a degree. 5 years is a very normal amount of time in which to meet someone, start dating them, get engaged, get married, get pregnant, and have a child. Four times that, 20 years, as in, the amount of time it would take for that newborn to create an entire life and have a possibility of getting married themselves? It's a hard punishment for a series of dangerous poor decisions made under the haze of fear, confusion, and pride, even if they did cause the death of a young boy.
Virginia
2024-09-08 21:27:10 +0000 UTCI love your honesty in your analysis! Your personal input into videos is what attracts me to your channel. Please stay that way! Thats why I'm supporting your channel. Ps. I totally agree with you about "bias" thing. We are all somehow bias to one thing or another. Grate example with 20 year old judge vs 50 year old judge!
Squash Konrad
2024-08-29 11:03:55 +0000 UTCLikewise - I appreciate you taking the time to go into more depth on your reasoning, I doubt many creators would be willing to do that so it's to be commended. We're not going to agree and I'm still shocked at the attitude so many people take to this case but thank you anyway.
Suz P
2024-08-24 15:31:49 +0000 UTCI enjoyed seeing you dive deeper into your thought process here and giving insight on how you weigh these factors in your analysis. I can agree that 20 years is a lot when weighing all of the circumstances against one another. I won't pretend to know more or have a more informed opinion than you or anyone else, but I can say that we too often value retribution over rehabilitation. I see a man who is likely not a threat to anyone anymore, regrets his actions genuinely, and made the worst mistake he could have that day. Unfortunately it cost a life, and he absolutely has to pay for that, as nothing can bring Issac back. 5-10 years seems just to me, with lifelong probation contingent on him not owning or carrying weapons ever again. At the end of the day though, there is no magic number that we can come up with and all feel that justice was done. A kid was killed, and nothing can fix that. If nothing else, I hope that this case will make at least one person down the line decide its not worth it and decide to walk away instead of engage. That alone could save a life.
MyNameFits
2024-08-22 17:19:02 +0000 UTCI found during the initial video that I had a lot of sympathy for Nick, and after listening through this one I agree with a lot of your assessment too. But, 5 years? With time? I just can't see that as fit punishment. And a lot of that is me judging based on the outcome. I did listen to that section thinking (Alright, he'll say 10 years with time served ) and then when you said 5 I did think (what the fuck). But I understand your reasoning, I do find myself thinking about how harsh prison is when sitting through any true crime vid, and i think 20 years is too much in this case. I think the entire video was excellentelly presented, I just can't get lower than 10 myself.
Lil Pacifism
2024-08-20 15:20:08 +0000 UTCOn sentencing us to five years in prison, “You haven't done anything, so it would be super mean of me” 😹 I agree with your assessment of this case. People do forget that being in prison is a major punishment in and of itself. This is especially evident when discussing the treatment of inmates. You often hear things along the lines of ‘it’s supposed to be a punishment, not a vacation’ when referencing topics such as meal quality and recreational activities. Missed is the point that being removed from their lives IS the punishment; heaping on extra miseries to living imprisoned is not included in the penalty.
Kathryn
2024-08-18 02:39:58 +0000 UTCI'll be sure to talk about some of the Hobbs arguments and all sorts when the addendum finally happens! God speed as you continue to grapple with it!
Matt Orchard
2024-08-15 05:29:00 +0000 UTCI’ll rewatch your video now with that new perspective! And I’ll also check out that other video, thanks for the recommendation Matt. I read tons of stuff on the case after seeing your video and it always bugged me. I always sway between thinking it was the three or it was Terri Hobbs. I did toy with the Bojangles man theory for a while until I saw the route he would’ve needed to take to pull it off. With the boys, like you said, I can’t get past Miskellys confessions. However, I also have a hard time pushing past some of Terri Hobbs odd behavior surrounding the crimes (lying, waiting till 9 pm to call the police, changing clothes, etc.)
David Garner
2024-08-15 05:26:34 +0000 UTCYa know what's funny with that is that it was supposed to be ostensibly ambiguous BUT with the conclusion of guilt sort of not that hard to read between the lines by the end. Part of why I do want to do that addendum at some point is I honestly feel a bit guilty that so many people got a similar impression as you did. Totally my fault as a creator, not the audience. But yeah, there will be no room for misunderstanding next time! In the meantime, check out "The Case Against The West Memphis Three" by Gary Meece. It's a condensed version of a two volume set that lays out the basics of the case without much extra frills. I know about as well as anyone how complicated the case seems, but once you get an idea of how flimsy the case is against say Byers or Hobbs (especially when compared to the three when you think about it - 3rd hand confessions vs. multiple 1st hand confessions for instance) and how many times supporter theories have shifted over the years...It gradually becomes clear it was never that complicated to begin with. That was my ultimate conclusion. It took a good while to come to, but once I got there I wondered why it took so long.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-15 05:15:06 +0000 UTCOh wow okay cool thanks! I don’t know why but I got the vibe that you did not think it was them. I suppose that just shows how fair you are in your presentation of the facts.
David Garner
2024-08-15 04:58:43 +0000 UTCI believe it was Echols, Baldwin and MIsskelley, and that the problems with the states case have been significantly overblown ever since the PL docos came out. I've actually always been happy to share that opinion, surprisingly very few actually ask!
Matt Orchard
2024-08-15 03:47:39 +0000 UTCMy dislike of AJ isn’t what I’m arguing from. The only reason I’m even elaborating on it further is because you asked me to - I don’t see it as important. My verdict on that stab is based on what I think Nic could have reasonably believed (that he could be at risk of death) at the moment he went to get up as AJ was coming toward him. Regardless of AJ’s intentions, if the data Nic was taking in could reasonably give him that belief, then he’s not criminally liable. If Dante had punched Nic, then he had gotten straight up and stabbed Dante (or AJ) - that would be totally different. The key is that there would be no ongoing, escalating assault to feel a need to fend off. To say there’s no reason to believe he would have acted any differently if there were no continuing interference with his person…it’s just a counterfactual. I’m going to stick with what did happen and what I view as a legal way to react to that, not what he might have done in a different scenario. Felonies are basically crimes categorized as serious. Maybe that’s not a perfect explanation, but close enough. Simple drug possession wouldn’t be a felony, mass manufacturing meth would. Many felonies are violent, but many are not. I think this is a distinction between proof and evidence. You’re arguing with me as if I said AJ’s two felonies prove he’s violent. I’m just saying that disclosure further tipped the scales in my mind - whatever the odds were in my mind that AJ had a tendency toward violence before that disclosure, they were a bit higher after it. Which I think is perfectly fair. But again, it’s not what I’m basing my verdict on the stab on, so it’s a less than secondary issue. Your subjective interpretations of AJ’s demeanor on the stand are every bit as valid as mine. On that, I’m going to bow out of this exchange as I really need to focus on other things now, and I’m happy with my blow by blow argument of the case as is laid out in the addendum. Appreciate the back and forth :)
Matt Orchard
2024-08-15 03:14:52 +0000 UTCThat’s fair, I think I saw that update but couldn’t remember what you said exactly. I look forward to it if/when it comes. How do you break on that case? Who do you think is most likely the killer(s)? Or are you sort of holding your opinions like you did for the Daniel Holtzclaw case?
David Garner
2024-08-15 02:41:39 +0000 UTCI haven't really *actively* considered Jodi, but I haven't ruled her out either. I'm a bit reticent to cover cases done by JCS, but there are exceptions like Russell Williams, and Jodi could be an even better candidate because there's court footage to play with. I've considered doing a Casey Anthony vid with more of a focus on her defense strategy as well.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-15 02:37:34 +0000 UTCThe thing is, your position on AJ's stabbing obviously *is* based on your dislike of him because you've said that you suspect he's the type to 'rush to violence' and that his intervention wasn't necessary because Dante had neutralised the threat. But of course Dante hadn't ended the threat from Nic and neither did AJ's shove as we can see in the video that after stabbing AJ, Nic gets straight up and starts swinging. Given what happened, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't have reacted the same way if AJ hadn't touched him - ie he would have got straight up and looked to attack after Dante slapped him. Your view that his felonies vindicate your dislike even though you admit you've no idea what they are - or for that matter when they occurred (it could be after the events since the court case is nearly two years later) - seems very wrong to me. I don't know much about what constitutes a 'felony' in US law but possibly it could be something like DUI or possession of drugs? Neither of these suggests a violent personality. His reaction to Nelson seems understandable for someone in a highly anxious state, sitting opposite the man who nearly killed him while that man's defence does the job of trying to discredit his evidence. AJ comes across to me as possessing a good level of critical intelligence and as an argumentative but non-violent person myself I feel it's very unfair to take against him for arguing with Nelson. I looked again at the 'safe as can be' part on the video testimony, all I can see is a baffled/exasperated look before the Judge intervenes - your idea of him leering, and your other assumptions about him as I said before are *prejudice* and that's not the same as 'bias'. It's not correct to say that I 'like' AJ - as I said before, I would never use that word for someone I don't know. Equally, my *bias* against Miu is purely based on what I know about his behaviour that day, not assumptions I've made about his character due to some dislike of him.
Suz P
2024-08-14 15:02:24 +0000 UTCGreat video as always man. Really appreciate all the great content. I think I have landed at 10 years.. you're right that it is based on retribution in part though, am having a hard time seeing him spend any less than 10 for killing Issac. Don't really know how to reconcile that.. I am with you on the breakdown of everything. I think he probably piefaced Maddy hard maybe even with an closed fist, and AJ definitely didn't look to be trying to make peace. Everything after that he is essentially flailing the knife around and was no longer in imminent danger. I think saying he was cornered and surrounded like I have seen many say is insane.. Unfortunately it looks like he has aged 10 years in 2, so 10 would be nearly 50 years at this point... Have you ever considered covering Jodi Arias at all? I know it's been heavily covered but I would absolutely appreciate your analysis on at least her cross examination and a breakdown of the prosecution, because it is absolutely fascinating to me.
Brandon White
2024-08-14 14:17:47 +0000 UTCSo in terms of my dislike for AJ, like attraction in or out of real life it is outside of my control. Like if I said, "OK, fine, I like AJ now." I've got to assume you wouldn't take that seriously because you know that's not how that works. My subjective reasons for my gut feeling on him, from the limited amount I have to go on: My interpretation of his actions in the video contribute. I do believe it's more likely than not he was going in to enact violence beyond what was necessary to contain Nic. I'm not generally a fan of people who rush to violence, even if it's in response to seeing someone hit, unless it's immediately necessary to fend them off - Dante had already neutralized the threat. When I learned he had two felonies, it did make me feel validated somewhat, though tbf I can't know if they're violent felonies. Now obviously we disagree on his intentions, and that's fine. Probably a part of why I tend to not like him and you do. Then on the stand...errr, again, it's a vibe check not a science, but he drove me up the wall at times while bickering with Nelson (who wasn't all that well behaved himself). That moment after he's asked "safe as can be, right?" - the look he gives at Nelson looked like what I'd call leering. Like he'd actually throttle Nelson if he could get away with it. With Dante, Ryhley and Tony I didn't get any of that, and they were asked plenty of twisty questions as well. But whatever - as I've acknowledged, I may well like AJ if I met him. Vibe checks can be wrong. The only reason I mentioned it was to acknowledge my feelings there are a bias I've got to be aware of and check myself against. I'm not arguing my position on that stab based on my dislike.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-14 08:57:26 +0000 UTCYeah, and it's a bit of semantics, because I understand what people mean and appreciate it. I am trying to leave any case that is reasonably ambiguous up to viewers, and that's what people are complimenting me for. I just don't want to be given credit for having zero of my own prejudices, because that's not actually possible and I could never live up to the standard!
Matt Orchard
2024-08-14 08:22:16 +0000 UTCI gave a quick update 2 or 3 commentaries ago explaining that addendum had to be put to the side indefinitely because it was going to get out of hand. It would be another vlog style like this one, so nowhere near the production time per minute. At the same time though, I've got so much to say that I won't be able to bang it out in a week and it will distract too much from the main projects - i.e. what puts food on the table. That's not to say I won't do it. I still want to. I just don't know exactly how or when I'm going to find the time, so don't want to keep supporters on tender hooks for it.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-14 08:18:08 +0000 UTCIve misused “biased” (or lack thereof) when describing your videos. I guess what your fans like is there is a high degree of ambiguity when it comes to your opinions on video (see Jon Bonet and Daniel Holtzclaw as examples) but there are times when you categorically state your stance (Gone Girl video)
Richard Johnson
2024-08-12 01:01:50 +0000 UTCHey Matt, appreciate the extra video. I was wondering if you had any update on the west Memphis case video. Your original video got me obsessed with the case so I’m fascinated to hear more of your thoughts on it.
David Garner
2024-08-11 04:25:22 +0000 UTCI agree overall that 20 is a tad much, but I think I'd lean more towards 10 myself. It is arbitrary in the end, that just feels more appropriate in my mind - but I'm no judge.
Nozo
2024-08-11 04:10:20 +0000 UTCI also disagree with your assessment re Miu's attack on him and the self defence claim. AJ didn't have much time to assess what was going on with Miu, all he knew was that Miu had managed to cause a big commotion and upset among a group of lads and had hit Madison in the face without provocation so was clearly acting in a bizarre and highly aggressive way. I think it was reasonable for him to want to keep Miu subdued and he didn't have much time to think through the best way to do that.
Suz P
2024-08-10 23:27:23 +0000 UTCWell no, it's not like that because when we talk about being attracted to someone or disliking we're talking about real life. You don't know AJ, all you know is a short video and his trial testimony so I certainly would be interested to know what you're basing your dislike of him on.
Suz P
2024-08-10 23:13:54 +0000 UTCOh it's not that I don't have any reason I could articulate as to why I don't like the cut of AJ's jib. I'd be happy to share those if you want to hear them, but they're based on subjective interpretations of certain things which is why I didn't want to get too bogged down with it. The reason I was disclosing that was to acknowledge - yeah, I've got my gut reaction to this guy, and I've gotta leave some room open that maybe that could slant the way I asses things when it comes to him BUT with that acknowledged, I really do feel like my conclusion on his stab is well grounded in what's observable in the tape. He could be a good guy, I could have the wrong read on him, but even if that's the case my opinion on that charge remains the same. In terms of being unfair for not liking him...I have no choice in the matter. It's like saying someones being unfair for not being attracted to a person.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-10 03:50:23 +0000 UTCI 100% agree with your assessment Matt. I can’t help but put myself in Nic’s shoes here. Once the confrontation escalated —- he’s surrounded, repeatedly hit, face goes underwater, when he gets up others are lunging at him, etc. It must have felt beyond overwhelming. He does deserve punishment, and I think another 3-5 yrs makes sense. This guy clearly poses no threat to society in the future and based on how he looks now vs. 2 years ago…. He’s completely broken
J West
2024-08-09 21:30:16 +0000 UTCLove your videos! I enjoyed hearing your take on the situation. I agree with you that 20 years is too much for a man unlikely to pose a threat to society & while both parties played a part in escalation.
Sylvia Denny
2024-08-09 17:47:51 +0000 UTCMatt, I got to the part where you're talking about AJ Martin and I'm so shocked and disappointed at you. I appreciated your discussion of 'bias' at the beginning but your attitude clearly crossed a line into outright prejudice - 'I just don't like the guy'. No explanation, no reasoning, just 'don't like him'. That kind of bs is acceptable in the comments I suppose but not from a content creator who has built a reputation for intelligent analysis and gone out of his way to explain the difference between being biased and being *fair* - there's no fairness in your attitude to this man.
Suz P
2024-08-09 14:26:06 +0000 UTCyes!! that’s my fault, sorry for the miscommunication there!!
Jess
2024-08-09 09:04:18 +0000 UTCto this i agree, there are so many factors to weigh here and i do genuinely believe, even throwing out Nics health issues, that he had reasonable judgment to believe he would be seriously harmed by a group of teenage boys ganging up on him. but a life was lost and i just can’t get past that. even seeing his statement to the affected families which was SO SAD, i still think judgment needs to be served. so i totally see your point, i just can’t get past the life lost. I APPRECIATE U ALWAYS.
Jess
2024-08-09 09:03:44 +0000 UTCAnd 5 with time served is still 5, not 3! It's not as if time in prison awaiting trial is less time in prison. But hey, if we went 5 from now for a total of 7 I could agree on that compromise.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-09 08:38:33 +0000 UTCI replied to you above :)
Matt Orchard
2024-08-09 08:36:26 +0000 UTCThere are other cases of a person killing someone where I would go for life! Like I said, I don't think the outcome is the only thing to take into account, and I do believe there are much more mitigating factors here than most cases I cover. But, again, there is no scientific way to decide this so I appreciate a lot of people will disagree with my sentence, which is obviously much more on the lofty side :)
Matt Orchard
2024-08-09 08:35:14 +0000 UTChiiiiii Matt. twitter girl here. i don’t usually comment on your Patreon’s, it’s usually just on twitter. great video, loved hearing your take on this whole fiasco. definitely some things we agree upon, and those we do not. i’m with you on the unclear battery charge against Madison and i hear the concerns about AJ, to be honest i didn’t really mind him, other than just being a kid. i’m also with you on him stabbing Riley was where i was like yes, this is where it should have stopped……. moving along to my biggest “omg Matt??” moment was you saying he should only get FIVE YEARS (three if we include time served). it’s just egregious to me IM SO SORRY. i know it’s your own opinion but a MINOR WAS KILLED after trying to stop the man who just stabbed his two friends. whether Nic had intent to kill or not, he took a life that still had so much living to do and idc idc idc he deserves to be held accountable for that. i agree it wasn’t with intent to actually kill him, so the reckless homicide charge is good with me. but five years when he took someone’s life? agghhh. needless to say, the twenty will do for me. anywho. still loved hearing your side of things even though we disagree, i appreciate the videos as ALWAYS ❤️ thanks Matt (also sorry it took me so long to watch this from when i said i would watch it)
Jess
2024-08-09 08:33:02 +0000 UTCAgreed. Five years is far too lenient. FAR TOO LENIENT. When I heard Matt say that my ears perked up and I am so glad I came to the comments and saw someone just as bewildered by that. FIVE?! FOR KILLING SOMEONE?! Matt you know I love you but come on 💔 Twenty is good. I’m good with twenty.
Jess
2024-08-09 08:24:28 +0000 UTCFair enough - like I say, the numbers are fairly arbitrary at the end of the day.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-09 05:36:37 +0000 UTCSorry to hear about what sounds like a really serious assault! Glad you're okay :)
Matt Orchard
2024-08-09 05:30:55 +0000 UTCAgree to disagree, and I do see what you're saying - I mean it did happen very close to the eye of the storm.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-09 05:27:44 +0000 UTCI think it should also be noted that they are *already* launching a more aggressive attack. As in: First punch, Nick goes down = subject neutralized. Face slap, back shove and pounce = continuation and escalation. Like I say in the addendum, I absolutely can't be sure beyond a reasonable doubt that would have absolutely been it had Nic not terminated the interference.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-09 05:25:13 +0000 UTCI could see what you meant anyway
Suz P
2024-08-08 23:53:57 +0000 UTCI agree with your points. In regards to the shock, or perception that one is being threatened with great bodily harm after their head is pushed underwater, I would guess everyone is different. However, I have actually been a victim of an attempted drowning, and in my case, the shock and fear did not wear off quickly. It was several minutes before I stopped panicking. But, back to Miu, he was also being punched and shoved, having threats hurled at him and being struck in the chest after having major heart surgery. I really, really hate to say it, but I do feel self-defense is in play for the first four, even for the boy who lost his life. The boy lunged at him and grasped his neck. As for the last man, that is indeed a mystery.
Zero S
2024-08-08 22:05:52 +0000 UTCI respectfully disagree with 5 years, I think 20 was just. Still love your content. Now if Issac didn’t die…then yeah 5 years might be ok…still on the lighter side.
Big B
2024-08-08 21:37:03 +0000 UTCSuz P: I disagree. If you pause Matt’s original video (not this addendum video) at 10:53 you can see Dante staring Miu down aggressively. At 11:33 you can see AJ approaching while pulling his shorts up, getting ready for a fight. I don’t think Miu hit Madison at all, I think the Carlson group came over to jump someone they thought would be an easy mark. But that’s just my opinion. Everyone sees it differently.
Yale Baker
2024-08-08 21:33:57 +0000 UTCThank you! I knew mitigating didn’t feel right but couldn’t find the other word when I was typing.
Tracy McClendon
2024-08-08 20:53:25 +0000 UTCThose would be aggravating factors. Mitigating factors would be factors that made Miu look better.
Yale Baker
2024-08-08 20:49:23 +0000 UTCI don't see any reason to imagine, as you've done here, that they would have launched a more serious attack on Miu - the only reason they attacked at all was because he hit Madison in the face, up til then all the energy (of the Carlson group) was expended on trying to get him to leave the area. No one was giving off aggressive vibes or physically threatening him before he attacked.
Suz P
2024-08-08 20:11:27 +0000 UTCYes I agree that behaviour would have been a factor and was reinforced when he took the stand.
Suz P
2024-08-08 20:03:39 +0000 UTCIt's such an unusual case, deciding on the punishment must have been very difficult for the judge. If Miu hadn't behaved so reprehensibly after the attacks he might have got more leniency - but actually I still think it's a lenient sentence for these crimes. If Miu was younger - in his 20s/30s would people still be saying 20 years is too much I wonder?
Suz P
2024-08-08 19:57:05 +0000 UTCI finally subbed to this Patreon after being a long-time fan of the channel, and I immediately see I made the right decision. SO refreshing to hear a true crime YouTuber talk about sentencing in such a reasonable way. When we're not talking about a violent murderer who's likely to recommit, what's the difference between five years or twenty? Probably nothing to society IMO, but everything to the perpetrator. It's the difference between a harsh punishment and prolonged torture. It's the difference between ample time to reflect, and decades of psychological deterioration. That's my own American point of view anyway!
Lee Basil
2024-08-08 16:59:46 +0000 UTCI think I'll do separate comments as I go through the video since I can't watch all in one go and I want to keep my thoughts in order. Firstly though I think he was lucky to get 20 years given what was available to the Judge to hand down. I don't know the life expectancy for someone his age who's had a quadruple bypass, not great probably, but there's a chance he will live to be released. On the subject of the Ariel's lost phone, I learned from trial testimony that they told him not bother looking for it as it was insured and they didn't want to hold the group up. Eric Williams from his group testified that he told Miu *not to go snorkling around the group of teens in case they thought he was 'a predator' (his word). He insisted on going to look and on snorkling around the teens which speaks to me of a stubborn arrogance and this is relevant to the catastrophe. I believe he targeted the group because he had his own bias against teenagers who were drinking underage and probably thought they'd found the phone and were keeping it. I also don't accept that he 'spa**ed out' as Matt suggested, you can see that he deliberately puts his snorkel set in his mouth (to free up his hands) as he runs up to their tubes so he was clearly thinking what he was doing on some level.
Suz P
2024-08-08 15:55:23 +0000 UTCThing is, the reason taking the stand 'hurt' him is because the truth was exposed so clearly - he was arrogant and seemed still not to appreciate about the magnitude of his actions, he had to admit that he lied point blank to the Police interviewer, he was still blaming Madison, he was talking about 'standing his ground' as if he was defending his home instead of standing in a river. The truth condemned him.
Suz P
2024-08-08 15:43:42 +0000 UTCI mean yeah Riley alone couldn't reasonably put him in fear for his life but he was just about on his feet after being in completely reasonable fear of his life, still people all around him and being attacked. I probably wouldn't question who the attacker was and how hard it would be for them to kill me either in that situation. Is it possible that stab was entirely out of anger? Yes it is. But it's a close one for me and I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt on the close ones because of the circumstances.
Jan Piet
2024-08-08 15:36:44 +0000 UTCThe video is so divisive - on the one hand it was essential in exposing Miu's lies after the attack, on the other hand too many people are just looking at the video, not understanding any of the background/context to it and then commenting that he was bullied and provoked. That's not what happened and if you want to understand why he was convicted and why he got the sentence of 20 years you need to know more.
Suz P
2024-08-08 15:32:06 +0000 UTCI haven't seen any evidence of him being even a bit sorry for Isaac's death and the pain of Isaac's parents. He seems still in 'self-defence' mode where perhaps he's always resided.
Suz P
2024-08-08 13:38:19 +0000 UTCWow, yeah in that case 20 years is rough considering everything. I’d be in the 10 years group I think - I’m sure he would’ve had a much lower sentence if he handled the police interview better, he really screwed himself there.
Dave
2024-08-08 12:45:15 +0000 UTCI haven’t watched this yet (starting now) but cool idea. I’m on his side and have been since I first saw the video. It’s hard to watch that group gang up and be cruel for no reason whatsoever except to be mean. They provoked him and he deserved to defend himself. The only thing I have a hard time with is why he didn’t immediately go to the police. That part confuses me and I wish he had. But, yeah, as far as I’m concerned he shouldn’t have been sentenced for as long as they gave him, if at all. If I was on the jury it would have been hung. BTW that would be a cool video- something about the psychology of being a juror or cases where most folks think the jury got it wrong (looking at you Casey Anthony jurors)
Chelsea Wisotzkey
2024-08-08 05:14:19 +0000 UTCIt's even worse when you consider how much approximate time passed between Isaac and Dante. I'm probably too easy on him re Dante tbh. I feel like I change my mind a little bit somewhere on this whole thing every fucking time I think about it, time for another addendum!
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 03:54:55 +0000 UTCHonestly, if I were his lawyer and had a time machine (only up til before taking the stand) I'd be very torn between advising him to not take the stand and just trying to coach him better. Even the jurors that spoke to the media said they thought his testimony probably hurt him BUT they did extend him some grace with the convictions they handed down. I'm not 100 percent whether it would be better or worse for him to just "let the evidence speak for itself." It would have been a pretty crazy case to sit out when so much hinged on what you were perceiving in those moments.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 03:52:01 +0000 UTCI think the incorrect use of "bias" is largely an American phenomenon. Many of us have this perception that what you might call "fair reporting" is unbiased, or that if a news report doesn't explicitly spell out it's opinion, there isn't any to be found. Ultimately, I see it as a lack of media literacy. Oh well. As to the case itself, I definitely lean more on the side of your perspective. This case isn't like the one where a man moved a corpse to lure their partner back in order to kill them. 13 seconds is practically no time at all to react rationally. However, I think the prosecution did a good job arguing that there were several moments before those 13 seconds where Nic could've disengaged. And, to be frank, ditching the knife and lying about his involvement isn't a good look. At the end of the day, the whole situation is just so sad... It really feels like every moment, from beginning to end, could've easily been prevented by any one member of the group playing peacemaker before the stabbing started.
toyhippogriff
2024-08-08 03:49:59 +0000 UTCThose were some damn good lawyers, so I'm not sure he'll have any luck appealing on those grounds. I had the same thought though - the shallowness of the water was a bit of a topic for the pros and further elucidation on how the sensation of water on your face can actually FEEL even if it's not actually life threatening could have been helpful. Problem is it only really helps with AJ's charge, which he isn't truly serving the time for. I guess after that the other subject that might help to unpack is how exactly does "shock" work? Like how long after being down in the water would it be reasonable to expect Nic to FEEL as if he's still in the middle of an attack? Like I say in the addendum though, I have a real hard time accepting a paradigm that gives someone multiple seconds of coverage after the immediate threat is gone. I mean if the Dante stab is half as deliberate as it appears in the blurry footage for instance, I'd have a real hard time accepting that as being a part of shock - and I'm TRYING.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 03:46:55 +0000 UTCThere's no doubt if he quickly handed himself in and was forthright (via a lawyer) it would have lent him far more credibility.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 03:33:43 +0000 UTCThis case is tough because there is parts where I am completely on his side and parts where I am against him. It's hard to not react in these tense situations and I feel for him. The kids started it and thought they could mock him and he couldn't respond because they had the numbers. They are at fault for instigated and they fucked around and found out that you shouldn't fuck around with others. With that said, you are right. I feel at multiple times he could have stopped and should have stopped and that is why he should be in jail. I understand why he did his post attack actions but they were wrong and should have went straight to the police. I also think his lawyer did a terrible job of prepping him. The prosecution ate him alive and him taking the stand hurt him.
William Keliipuleole
2024-08-08 02:55:05 +0000 UTCWhere I believe self-defense defense comes into play is when he is pushed into the water. We have a very primal rection when faced with the sensation of drowning, which is why waterboarding works so well. This reaction comes with even a small amount of water. Especially when yellow shorts pushes his face into the water is the point where I believe the self-defense comes into play. I'm surprised the defense didn't call in a psychologist as an expert to explain this to the jury. As much as an unimaginable asshole as Miu is, I feel he may have a case on appeal for ineffective counsel on this point.
Zero S
2024-08-08 02:47:38 +0000 UTCThat's a reasonable take and I think you made the strongest possible case for it. My big hangup is that post stabbing he lied repeatedly, hid evidence and acted like he did nothing wrong. That should be well after all adrenaline and his state of mind defense has lapsed. I think that is the strongest indication it was out of anger in my opinion.
futures
2024-08-08 02:21:14 +0000 UTCYeah, there was outrage at the time when it was revealed how he would serve his time in prison. And I do understand not wanting to do a piece on this, not a right fit for the channel. But like I said in the reply chain about the Baneheia Murders, it really changed the landscape. And the second I saw the name "Viggo Kristiansen" I was like, oh yeah, I know that guy. He was so villified in the media around that time, probably both of them, but the other name didn't stick in my mind. And then the first person to get life inprionment is released after the case was finally reopened. I don't know how interesting this is, and I appreciate (as you commented on the David Bain commentery video) the new legal system you got to educate yourself with, before educating your viewers. I don't know how much pieces of media is out there (and how much of it needs to be translated). I will help as much as I can if it is desirable. Just a thought however. Love your work.
Reiken Kayzer
2024-08-08 01:48:22 +0000 UTCI think the core (subjective) disagreement is I'm not convinced any of the stabs were primarily driven by anger as opposed to an overload of adrenaline. Like I said at the end, if I thought Nic was purely exacting retribution (even just post AJ say) then I could more come around to 20 or even more.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 01:31:39 +0000 UTCThanks! Was harder to figure that visualizer out that one might think!
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 01:25:47 +0000 UTCFor what it's worth, the footage isn't visually very graphic (though still upsetting no doubt)
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 01:24:55 +0000 UTCInteresting - what's your thinking with Riley?
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 01:23:44 +0000 UTCI think he used the phrase "That I was involved in" too. Not "caused." Isaac's father did say he was surprised to get the apology all the same. Atty Nelson said at sentencing that Nic had expressed genuine sorrow and remorse, while acknowledging he had expressed other sentiments mixed in with all that. Again, it's a complicated thing. He is sorry, he does regret many of his actions, but he still doesn't see himself as being *solely* in the wrong, as I and other outside observers don't.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 01:22:17 +0000 UTCBrevik's prison conditions and (basically theoretical) parole eligibility is a good example of what I was thinking of when I said some countries don't emphasize retribution enough. The man basically lives in a shitty apartment with a Playstation (lame games though!) Yeah I wouldn't make a video on that particular case, though I have had vague thoughts on doing one about "Extremism." Too broad of and idea though, probably wont come to pass.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 01:17:17 +0000 UTCYou’re right. Given what Nic did, he obviously wasn’t going to get off scot-free if he had contacted authorities. But if he had, maybe he wouldn’t have gotten 20 years. To me, his behavior after the incident and especially the lies he told police just rub me the wrong way, so I’m perfectly content with 20 years. Something else I’ve thought about too is just how the situation could have gone the other way. If Nic didn’t have a knife with him or never produced and got his shit kicked in, the other people involved would probably face assault charges. Or if Nic had suffered a cardiac episode during the incident and died, would the others face reckless homicide charges or something similar? This is just me saying that there really weren’t any “good guys” during this incident, no one you could really root for or get behind, and the only people I really feel for are Issac and his family. Should go without saying, but the poor boy did not deserve to lose his life over this. Just a chaotic situation all around.
Joe Shea
2024-08-08 01:13:15 +0000 UTCI'd probably be talked around to 10 just on the basis it would make Isaac's family feel less disrespected. Split the baby type thing.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 01:11:43 +0000 UTCFair - Yeah his behavior after the fact really hurt him. In terms of how you could square it with the more sympathetic reading of things - again, it comes down to how predisposed one is to extending him the benefit of the doubt. The Defense explanation for that was basically shock and fear. This extreme thing has just happened and while you may believe it to be self defense...you do still know you just stabbed a bunch of people and that's generally viewed as...very bad. So you hide and evade because you think you might be in big trouble. Obviously you're going to be facing the possibility of big trouble once what's done is done in any event so of course the correct thing to do is turn yourself in in the quickest and safest manner possible (I don't fault him for not sticking around to render first aid in that situation, but he needed to get himself off the water ASAP) and politely tell the police it was self-defense but you can't speak on the matter any further until you can talk to a lawyer. I'm not confident he'd have gotten off if he did that, there's plenty running against him in the event itself. But the relentless lies and evasion were very detrimental when it came to his overall credibility.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-08 00:51:15 +0000 UTCReading more into the Baneheia Murders, I think that might fit better with some twists and turns than Behring Breivik, which would be just reporting on a tragedy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baneheia_murders If anyone care for some reading into this that in many ways changed the landscape in Norway during the early 2000.
Reiken Kayzer
2024-08-08 00:43:25 +0000 UTCYes, he slaughtered/executed 69 at Utøya (literally Out Island) in 2011. I do see now he was sentenced to 21 years plus preventive detention. Which is an military penal code and can, in theory, result in life imprisonment. The first to recieve this sentencing was Viggo Kristiansen in connection to the Baneheia Murders. But he was exonerated in 2022. There might be a video there actually. Norway has so things I've come to realize. Certainly more than Anders Behring Breivik. Although he certainly put us on the map 13 years back.
Reiken Kayzer
2024-08-08 00:28:58 +0000 UTCI think this case is interesting as a granular legal exercise rather than the morals of the actions. Even though it did happen very fast it does seem like a textbook case of reckless homicide or reckless actions in the last three cases. He had ample time to walk away or deescalate but instead chose to keep swinging when in no danger. I don't think it's morally gray much at all which I see some saying. It's just too hard for most to separate most of the admittedly asshole kids actions from what took place after, it doesn't even really matter who started the verbal altercation legally. If he walked away after AJ there is a clear case for self-defense but everything after to me is out of anger. I understand it's hard given his state of mind but at some point you stop giving him that benefit of the doubt and say you're doing this for other reasons. I personally just can't separate that he lied repeatedly after including saying the kids had a knife who attacked him and then acted like nothing happened. Surely those factors should be considered in sentencing. 5 years is indeed a long time but for the crimes witnessed on video? It's not harsh enough and pretty clear retaliatory violence out of anger should be harshly punished to disincentive it. I don't think he's a monster and feel a little for him but the sentence feels about right to me.
futures
2024-08-08 00:13:12 +0000 UTCI like the audio visualizer. Very nice vid matt
Gizmo
2024-08-07 21:42:46 +0000 UTCobviously what he did was inexcusable but I can't help to feel bad for Nic as he's getting thrown around by these guys. just a fat older guy getting bullied by these young kids (even though it's his fault). he then goes on to burn all that empathy when he draws a weapon but I appreciate this video for reinforcing this situation is gray and not black and white
cool_ranch
2024-08-07 21:01:49 +0000 UTCI was never able to bring myself to watch the video.
Brian Grim
2024-08-07 20:14:20 +0000 UTCYes, you are correct
Joe Shea
2024-08-07 20:09:45 +0000 UTCI think my coworker was telling me about that just yesterday. What a coincidence. Is that the one where it was a youth political group that was attacked and they were on an island? If not, my apologies. What he told me about it stunned me.
sunny crays
2024-08-07 19:36:14 +0000 UTCPersonally would acquit him of AJ and Isaac and probably also Riley. That said, I think both of the other stabs are bad enough to agree with your 5 years accessment. The intentional homicide charges are hard ones to meet but both of them come awfully close...
Jan Piet
2024-08-07 19:26:55 +0000 UTCRecidivism for people around his age is really low, regardless of sentence length according to U.S. Sentencing Commission Statistics. So most likely 54 year old like Nic wouldn't have committed further crimes after that point. Really all depends what punishment and justice looks like for the people of Wisconsin. Whether they define that sentence based on the retribution that a young man was killed or to balance that with whether or not Nic's character would've changed after serving through his punishment. I believe its a balance of both and thing 20 is fine.
Kevin Flores
2024-08-07 17:28:36 +0000 UTCYou have probably done more research than me to be fair. But yeah, I doubt he would ever be released. There's a reason he is in solitary, but it is for his safety. He would be killed so fast if he was allowed to roam with other inmates. And I do believe he would be killed before he could kill if he ever got released. But yeah. We haven't really had to deal with anything like this (Nesset being maybe a slight outlier with 27-30 victims if memory serves) since WWII. And we were quick to execute both Widkun Quisling and Henry Rinnan among other traitors. But those were the last executions in Norwegian history.
Reiken Kayzer
2024-08-07 17:20:55 +0000 UTCYeah, please keep Behring Breivik locked up for live. That dude is a monster and will absolutely kill again if released. I believe Norway does have some ways in their legal system to keep someone like him locked up indefinitely, right? Like some stipulations for incredibly serious crimes? I've only done a little research on Norway's legal system.
Joe Shea
2024-08-07 17:03:48 +0000 UTCYeah, the whole early black metal thing has been covered at lenght. There is one case of Arnfinn Nesset, someone regarded as Norway's first serial killer. (Belle Gunness predates him, but she did migrate to the states before committing her crimes). Nesset was/is a "Doctor Death" type, who was sentenced to 21 years (max punishment in Norway, even to this day. We focus heavy on rehabilitation, although I doubt Behring Breivik will be out of prison). He (Nesset) lived/lives (chances are good he is dead now) under a pseudonym. It could be a video, but I fear even with someone translating the newspapers, there isn't too much info to be had. Oooh, there is the Isdal Woman, Baneheia-case, Orderud-case (which might be the most interesting along with the Isdal woman), and Birgitte Tengs. There are quite a few now that I thought a little about it.
Reiken Kayzer
2024-08-07 16:52:59 +0000 UTCThe only other Norwegian case that comes to my mind is Varg Vikernes, but a lot of other true crime channels have also done that one too. Perhaps anything involving the early days of Norwegian black metal would work, especially since there are multiple crimes linked to that scene.
Joe Shea
2024-08-07 16:26:16 +0000 UTCI agree with you on the sentence being too long (I'd go maybe 10 years), but disagree with most of the rest of your assessment of Nick. He's not a serial killer, but I can't seriously say someone who goes on a stabbing spree out of what I think is largely anger (i.e. the last three, we agree the first one was justified) is not a threat if he were released. I can sympathize with lashing out, but not when you're armed and out of danger. And I'm sure he's not a monster, but any apology that avoids the words "I am sorry for what I did" is untrustworthy to me. He would have lost nothing but pride to apologize like that for Isaac's death, and instead he apologized for "what happened". I'm sure he is sorry a bit for Isaac, just more for himself.
LapisScarab
2024-08-07 16:25:33 +0000 UTCI don't know if this is the right place for (this post and this channel), but being Norwegian, I think we share a bit of that New Zealand thing of when we are mentioned, there's jubilance in the streets (and we don't even have Lord of the Rings to fall back on). But I have been thinking about suggesting Norwegian cases you could cover, but there really aren't any. The obvious one is of course the mass-shooting by Anders Behring Breivik, but I don't really see how (or possibly why) you would cover such a case. Only possibly for the sheer number of deaths or just preserving and spreading history. It is after all 13 years ago, and I don't think it has gotten lots of coverage other than at the time. But again, I don't know if it would be a fit for this channel. Perhaps this is just me thinking aloud or spewing words at a wall.
Reiken Kayzer
2024-08-07 16:07:33 +0000 UTCThe actual case video was the first I didn't comment on after becoming a Patreon (I think), but that was simply because I was at a loss of words by the case. I still don't really know what to say about the case. Not taking anything away from the production Matt did, it--like always was fantastic--I just don't know. It's a tragedy for sure, and maybe the lengths it got to over something so unavoidable is staggering. It is one of the most greyscale cases I've seen covered. Saying that, I wasn't hesitant for a moment seeing this video and I do agree with King Matt about the 5 years.
Reiken Kayzer
2024-08-07 15:59:23 +0000 UTCGreat addition. And I actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying. Maybe not exactly with the 5 years sentence but around 7-10. I agree on it being shorter though.
Kenneth Wilkins II
2024-08-07 15:08:07 +0000 UTCWhile I get the fact that being called a pdf file is inflammatory, Nic could have walked away and never would have seen them again. He killed a child and escalated it for no reason
Katie Fortner
2024-08-07 15:03:54 +0000 UTCThis guy partied down the river and lied when he went to the police - I feel like for me, these would be mitigating factors in sentencing.
Tracy McClendon
2024-08-07 14:54:42 +0000 UTCThis has been a pretty tough case for me to wrap my brain around, but I do find myself coming to one particular train of thought: If Nic truly believed he was in danger and believed he acted in self-defense, why did he not contact the police after he got away from the situation so that he could explain what happened? Why did he throw away his knife? Why did he just continue to hang out with his friends and act like nothing happened and let the police come to him? Why did he tell multiple lies to police during his interrogation? To me, it reeks of a man trying to let the whole thing just blow over and a man trying to avoid or minimize his level of responsibility. That's why I think he got 20 years, and while I do agree it might be a bit extreme given the situation (I personally would probably give him 10 years), I'm not gonna lose sleep over the sentence either.
Joe Shea
2024-08-07 14:24:50 +0000 UTCAlright, you got me. I initially thought 20 was more than fair, but I can see how 5-10 is just given the circumstances- I personally lean closer to 10 than 5, but that might be my American bias. It’s the “reckless disregard for human life” for me personally, that persisted even after the first few stabbings. SO much vitriol is present online about this case, saying the victims “deserved” to be gutted by a knife or that Miu is a dangerous murderer. Thank you for keeping a level head and being fair to both sides when there’s so much mud in the water. It’s what keeps me coming back. :)
J-Popsicles
2024-08-07 14:05:25 +0000 UTCAt 57 mins you show Nic stabbing and then Isaac comes in for the push. Like you said its possible he saw that and was trying to stop him. For me that is in self defense of his friend getting stabbed. Also Nic stabs the guy multiple times before Isaac comes in. Personal opinion is he was too emotionless and indifferent when he was stabbing. He didn't say get away I have a knife, which in self defense you are wanting to get your point across that you aren't a target that can be messed with. You don't silently start stabbing anyone close. This is obviously my own thoughts, but it stuck out the most in watching the videos. (Edit) Overall I don't think he meant to kill anyone, but he had a disregard for everyone there. And I can concede that the first stabbing of AJ doesn't look intentional. His body language doesn't say defensive in my opinion. I know that's not an exact science. But there are defensive wounds on people who are attacked in the same places because its instinct. Bring your hands up to defend yourself. The fact that he has one arm swinging by his side kind of tells me he didn't feel threatened for the middle stabbings. I don't think Issacs stabbing was intentionally fatal, but I cannot get over the fact that he stabs (forgot the name) more than once before Isaac steps in. His reaction seems more vindictive to the people who were harassing, in my opinion.
Fay
2024-08-07 13:55:02 +0000 UTCAll good Sunny, we'll agree to disagree on how to weigh the factors on this one!
Matt Orchard
2024-08-07 13:46:02 +0000 UTCMatt, your analysis is, as always, stunning. Your points about the overly retributive nature of the American Justice system are spot on. Your point about how severe losing five years of your life is, is an excellent observation. However, if I can be so bold as to put forth my perspective, I have a counterpoint. Isiah was a young man with his entire life ahead of him, a life Nic already got to live. Are we meant to believe someone with such poor impulse control and communication skills as Nic never antagonized anyone in his youth like these young men did? Yet no one ever murdered him for it. He lied to the police from his very first interactions with them because he knew what he did was inexcusable. He stole every year Isiah would ever have been able to live. He stole every moment, every future friendship, romantic relationship, accomplishment, perhaps even future children. That is something that I think is unforgivable. I feel anyone who can do something like that is a danger to society and has no place in it. If being heckled by some drunk teenagers causes you to escalate things to murder, I think you are too dangerous to exist freely in public spaces where children are. I think he should spend the rest of his life in prison. Maybe, as an American, I've been so deeply entrenched in the retributive worldview for so long that it's permanently colored my perspective. So perhaps I have so much bias I can't even see how much I have. But I can't look at this case as anything other than a grown man senselessly murdering a child, even after your excellent analysis.
sunny crays
2024-08-07 13:34:59 +0000 UTCNope - That's time in prison. 18 years from now, no good behavior or any of that business. 6 years supervision from memory after that too.
Matt Orchard
2024-08-07 13:01:47 +0000 UTCGreat to hear your thoughts on this Matt - I might have missed something, but was it the case that there was no chance of parole mentioned before the end of the 20 year sentence?
Dave
2024-08-07 12:59:47 +0000 UTCI think you nailed it. Couldn’t agree more.
Yale Baker
2024-08-07 12:42:05 +0000 UTCThis remains a tough case. Im personally very much NOT a fan of retribution being a large factor in sentencing, but I understand why it is in reality. Miu is not going to be a threat, so 5-10years seems good.
corvdb1992 .
2024-08-07 11:56:40 +0000 UTC
