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SovietWomble
SovietWomble

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Sons of the Forest problems

This has been a very difficult preproduction week thus far. And this will be a difficult post to make. But here goes.

For the last couple of days I've been intensely stressing over the footage for the Sons of the Forest video. As I've been wrestling with an uncomfortable realisation as a creator.

I don't think this is working as well as I was hoping. And the principle problem I have is the duration. I think I have indeed made the script too long.

When I started, you might recall that I wanted to focus entirely on the differences between The Forest 1 and Sons of the Forest in order to keep the video shorter. But that method had a major downside in that I couldn't use any of the funny moments that happened in the livestreams, because most wouldn't work out of context.

I worried that such a format would be humourless.

So I pivoted to the same approach from the original Forest video - a walkthrough the story, introducing the plot elements sequentially, sprinkling the funny moments throughout as they're encountered, then using the proper opinion pieces to bookend every few segments (a 'see saw' of quality, the problem of scale, etc. More substantial observations about the gameplay and its consequences for the play experience).

But in doing so I think I've gone too far. For by the nature of a sequel, Sons of the Forest is juggling a lot more balls than the original. Introducing far more elements. And it's plunged me into this uncomfortable position of flatly recounting things in long lists. Where the amusing moments can't keep them interesting. And the things that should be more interesting are too spaced out and unmemorable.

If anything the post it note wall that shows chapters illustrates the issue. And it's obvious in hindsight.

The pink ones represent the plot elements I felt I needed to setup (cannibal behaviour, circling helicopters, etc). The blue parts are where my own observational opinions are expressed with opinion pieces (though pretend there are about 3-4 additional blue post it notes after the last one). And whilst this is only a rough guideline, the pink outstrips the blue by a large margin.

The blue really needs to be the focus. But I've now placed in so much pink. It all comes across like filler. And its putting the brakes on the whole thing. Content for the sake of setting up other content. Necessary, I felt. But not all that interesting to watch.

The second thing bothering me is the heavy time commitment required because of that length. This is a very time intensive project for just one person. Measured in months. It would be different if I were a production team, I'm sure.

I'm currently here in the overall scope:

Though that's a little misleading as it makes it seem like we're near the halfway mark. Those final three post-it notes concerning the conclusion are gigantic.  So really we're more like 1/3rd to 1/4th of the way through development.

There's months of work left. Half a year, I reckon. If the first video was anything to go by. Meaning I'd need to commit to this until next Feb or March.

That's the sort of thing you commit to if you know it's a sure-fire hit. 

And on reviewing the work so far I'm not so sure it is. It's all too big. Too ponderous. The conclusions too plain, at least in the middle parts where story elements are being listed. Youtube is full of videos flatly going through game lore. I don't want this to be that.

Additionally what's also bugging me is that I've got other projects that have been languishing for ages. Other things that this is going to take priority over.

The Divinity II series needs completion. All of Halo remains unedited. Heck, the Dungeons and Dragons bullshittery needs this same multi-month treatment and I reckon it'll be received far better.

I'm asking myself does this project, considering its size, deserve priority over all of those?

And the third major problem is - I don't think this one concludes in a way that's is interesting as the original Forest video. And that's something I'm really struggling with.

Because the sequel doesn't have a flaw that's even half as cool...from a content creator perspective.

The discovery that The Forest made the literal forest an afterthought on its own story - is notable. It's absurd. A good exclamation mark to go out on. But Sons of the Forest doesn't have that. It doesn't have an equivalently strong gotcha.

Heck, I outlined the conclusion back in the post from April:

The conclusion of this game is neither a shocking failure nor a fist-pumping success. It in my opinion, not bad. But certainly has wrinkles. Follow by an 'and this is how I would personally unwrinkle them'.

Then I go into a deep dive into how Endnight (the developer) seem to have this persistent habit which is admirable in most circumstances, but shoots themselves in the foot when it comes to a mystery plot.

And that is interesting. But I don't think it's strong enough to dedicate 9 months of full time effort, if that make sense? Not like the first Forest game.

I'm so very sorry to you all. I feel like I've screwed up and wasted your time with such a confession. Spending 3 months on the script in this form, only to be eyeing up the drawing board and considering a rethink.

But on reviewing what's been done, and more importantly what's still to be edited, I feel the need to own my screw up. Ponder the problem. Reassess. Decide what I'm going to do about it.

Perhaps I should dip into an alternate bullshittery project would be wiser for the moment. Something to remain productive. Please do tell me your overall thoughts.

Sons of the Forest problems

Comments

I think you may have been so focused on this particular project that you've become too absorbed in it, I think a little time to think it over, let it breath and give your head a little bit of respite with something that's less heavy on your mind might be the best solution. I've personally experienced this many, many times and it always feels good to give attention to something else for the time being, so that your own insistence with it can be less severe and give you some new insight, at the end of the day what we care about is that you enjoy what you do, deliver something we know YOU are proud of and most importantly, that you give yourlsef a bit of grace. It's ok to restart something or leave it completely, it happens sometimes.

Dani

It sounds like you're trying to recreate the magic of the first video. Perhaps this one should be broken up into two parts? or reframed in a less analytical view?

Alfred

You blew the transaxle, you’r e just grinding metal, ease ‘er down… It’s completely normal and cool to get into a project and realize there’s less there than you previous thought (or hoped) there would be. If nothing else, look at this project as a way to reorient yourself a little. The only thing that would make it a waste of time is if you learned nothing from the experience or, if you allow yourself to feel guilty about a game that turned out to have the approximate spice level of flour. Don’t allow disappointment with the game to be projected onto your work product or yourself in general. Be kind to yourself. Then go be less kind to a teammate somewhere. Then gloat.

Christopher Green

The biggest mistake i've seen content creators do is push on in a project where its become clear they no longer have the heart for, and thus end up with a subpar product that disappoints not just the creator (who alongside the sunk cost fallacy where they feel obligated to just finish it, and thus end up wrapping it up in a unsatisfactory manner, E.G Game of Thrones season 8) but also the audience where while we do want content, if its content that is half finished then we also don't feel good for pushing a creator to continue working on a project they kinda don't want to do. More or less a tldr that roughly aligns with everyone elses thoughts, if you don't feel its working out, thats your gut feeling and you should listen to it, and don't feel bad about it, maybe what you need is a extended time away from it and come back to it with a fresh mindset =)

Lost in the Woods

I said it once and I'll keep saying it. "We're here for you (mainly Lulu), the content is a bonus." Don't burn yourself out on one big project, take breaks in-between the working months. Do a Bullshittery, work on the Forest project for a month or so, then another Bullshittery. Break up the monotony, ESPECIALLY now, I honestly don't expect you to work on projects the next few months what with the new house and having to move, along with all the work needed for that. TL:DR - We aren't leaving, no matter what you do.

Komotz

Dear womblest of Soviets, I supported your endavour because you were very much in love with the idea of creating a follow up to the original "the forest" essay, which did okay and had interesting points. In a professional context the follow up video essay would not fly as a business case: very limited potential payoff, huge development timeline and high uncertainty. You can do it as a labor of love, and most of us here would support you, but I feel that your love for it isn't there anymore. Breaking up with an idea that you already poured so much work and thought into is hard, but it would be foolish to waste even more of your time and effort if you do not enjoy it. Redirect your resources into something you will enjoy for much longer - a differnt video, a forrest bullshittery, working on the garden for Lulu, learn how to automate some of your workflows, etc. Pushing deeper into the quagmire of a multi-month project without the required love and conviction sounds like a recipe for disappointment, burnout and a subpar product. Stopping something like this is not failure, it's honesty. It's tougth to move on. Who is even still talking about the sons of the forest these days? I think if you rather want to take a month to expore completely new ideas (like just talking to the camera about the forrest, or fishing videos, or a livestream of playing with Lulu, collaborating with other people on the creation process) we would still support you unconditionally. Be brave :)

TheRedScare

The big caveat to my advice is that for whatever my thoughts matter, I never thought a big Sons Of The Forest essay was a good idea so soon after the first Forest essay. That being said, it's even less of a good idea if you don't have faith in the structure or a strong direction to go in. When you went ahead with the project despite the time commitment, I thought "I don't think this is a good idea, but Womble is pretty damn good at making videos on the internet and I'm not, so it'll probably be fine." If you aren't sure, don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy and throw more months into it if you don't know where you are going or have confidence in the product you will have when you get there. You ARE good at making videos on the internet, and one of those skills is knowing what videos to make, and what videos not to make. And if this is a video not to make, don't make it. But what do I know? My biggest Youtube video has 31 videos, and most of those must be accidental.

PHAZE

Good bit of introspection and I think you have a solid point there. Perhaps the project could be scaled down to a more manageable size? I think what would be interesting in light of your first video is to simply see what the major differences are between the games, how do they compare, and what lessons did/not the developers learn from the first game. If you think about it, a lot of the "Oh shit!" moments from the first game made for strong segments in the first video, but in a sequel video they have already been done and lack the same impact. -The Cannibals are more advanced in behavior and got some new units but all in all are very similar. -The mutants cannot be used for shock value anymore, apart from showing how vile the newer models get I suppose. -The excessive gore is a point that can't really be made twice, now in the same way at least. A lot of "zingers" from the first video can't really be implemented as effectively in the second video and I don't think there are enough new "zingers" in SOTF to make up for it. So perhaps something that is less of a deep dive and more of a comparison for the sake of closure with some comedy sprinkled in could be a better investment of your time? Less impactful perhaps, but also less of a time investment on your end. Also to be honest, you are really good at video essays and I would personally love to see a "The Forest" style video on some other game that you feel you have a good take on, more so than a Sons of the Forest video essay to be completely honest with you. I do genuinely think that this is a video format that suits you, and I think exploring that format in a broader field is ultimately more rewarding for you and for us than to lock yourself into a singular title project like this.

BlackNova

To expand and clarify, because my logorrhea took over. The forest essay was so good because the forest lore was a disaster. But Sons is not a disaster...and not a masterpiece. It's a middle ground that will probably be too difficult to enhance with an essay.

Claudio Furlan

There is no shame in axing a project if you realize it is not worth the time investment. Sometimes you have to start something to notice this. Shit happens. But if you put the project in the backlog I suspect you would get the same effect as with the DayZ essay: It would always be on your mind and when you finally get back to it in a year or two you would rewrite the whole damn thing and start anew. If you were to re-focus the essay on another topic, what would happen to the 90 minutes you already produced? Would this have to be redone? my 2 cents: Do your self a favour and officially cancel this essay.

Dingens

I think you came to right conclusion. To me, the perfect response in the debate "the forest vs Womble" are the streams of sotf. Like you said, there's not a gotcha moment, or a enourmous flaw to expand to an essay. Basically it would be a 3 hour long video where you say "you did an ok job I guess?". Not enough for the gigantic amount of time you have to spend on it. I repeat, I think the streams, at least for us followers, were something great. Really catching on with you what was different from the first game was an experience, maybe one of the best playtrough I've watched in my life honestly...but can you repeat that feeling in an essay? I don't think so. While the forest was an essay on game creation in general, this would be too much "endnight-meta" imo. I dont think it have the legs to stand on his own, on content alone. It would be great because well, you are a great author, but maybe it's time that you are better off doing 2/3 different project in the same timespan... especially for your own sanity lol. If you ask me, I'd like to see a sort of bullshittery of SOFT, with the same "light" tone of a bullshittery, while you make comparisons with the forest. But a quick one, just a tribute to the original essay.

Claudio Furlan

Don't stress it at all. I follow you for the quality and scope of your videos, not upload schedule. Take a break from this, hit a short Bullshittery, work on one of those back-burnered long projects, hit another short bullshittery, and by that point you'll be far removed enough that you'll have a good eye to see if this is a salvagable project, or just one that isn't destined.

Justin Cox

It's a huge project and that can he daunting. You said it yourself, you didn't expect the first one to go on as long as it did. Maybe a step back would be a good idea. Look at it with fresh eyes. Maybe approach this as it's own thing? Write it in the same way toj would the first, without comparing too much? Hit the broad strokes of the story, show the intrigue of the artifact, and then the disappointment there. Which can then introduce the "it's the same as..." and point back to the other video.

Mech Quillfeather

I think you should take a break and work on another video to get your mind off. Maybe best to do a co-op run of Sons of the Forest to get more details to add to this essay.

DERB

Not sure if this helps but something that's messed me up in my own writing when I noticed it getting to detailed is over focusing on the unnecessary. Often when I'm writing I'll go far to in depth about something that while interesting to me, the writer, only needs a line or two to keep the story going. In kind of the same way you can cut the forest out of The Forest, read through the script and see what details can be cut. Getting someone else to read through it can help with that. Sorry if this comes across as patronising.

Jarek Nolan

@Soviet Part of the creative process is sometimes figuring out that shit just does not work the way we thought. That's entirely cool. The whole reason people are here paying every month is cuz we trust your judgment on stuff like this. If it's not working, it's not working; no reason to keep trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Don't feel bad about it.

Kevin Schwall

Don't stress it too much Womble, all projects have risks and sometimes don't work out. I have plenty of research projects which just kind of fizzled out: if it was easy then everyone would do it. I suppose you've probably mulled this over already, but are all of those pink notes *actually* required? Is it possible to focus down on the really big, key takeaways from TF, and how SotF did or didn't fall into the same trap, and how Endnight did or didn't learn lessons and what effect that has had on how enjoyable the game was? Or has it all been reduced as much as possible already?

BubNotBob

Honestly, if you find that it's not going to be of a standard that you would approve of, then move on to something else. The time is not wasted - despite your disappointment, lessons will have been learnt through embarking on this process.

Aidan Moore

For me personally, I was exasperated with the sequel that they decided to bring 3 elements together that just... Didn't seem to fit together. You have the cannibals - okay, fair enough, that's a staple of this franchise. Additionally, you have the mutants, which then have their own backstory of *why* there's mutants on the island, in a different mechanic than the first island. And then you have... Demons? Who are possibly from an alternative dimension, but for some reason they're burned by crosses. How does this tie in to the story? Why are the "demons" that are other dimensional beings effected by crosses? What does that have to do with the mutants and the cannibals? WHY ARE THEY BURNED BY CROSSES??

The Shaggy Sniper

Overall though, don’t beat yourself up about it! I for one thoroughly enjoy your content, even if it either takes a while or is shelved for a bit to work on other stuff. Definitely appreciate your approach in wanting to own up to it, but you also shouldn’t be too hard on yourself about it 👍

NCO_Aeyen

Makes sense! It sounds like you've hit a wall with SotF mentally, so probably best to take a short break or do another bullshittery for a bit. I don't feel that time has been wasted. Goodness knows every project doesn't come out easy.

FrentYumon

I think it’s definitely too long a forecasted process to finish this video in particular, at least right now. I wouldn’t blame yourself too much though, as we all (who voted for a SOTF video essay) knew it would be a beast of a video, so we knew the time sink going into it. I think maybe the best thing at this point would be to put SOTF on the back burner while you work on other series(?), like DOS2, starting the Halo bullshitteries, doing the D&D bullshitteries, etc., just to give yourself a break from worrying about the length and time for the idea to breathe and relax a bit to revisit in the future

NCO_Aeyen


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