[CLOSE] The Harry Potter Book Club! - Your Notes for Chapters 18 & 19 of the Prisoner of Azkaban!

and the wands would have done them any good,once Lupin had transformed? I am actually really fed up with all those "Snaters" ( this is not directed at you, but as someone who has gotten this for like 20 years - sometimes I am just really fed up) So here is my very unpopular thinking about Severus Snape Like... I've never seen a Snape fan trying to make Snape out to be perfect, but most anti fans only focus on his flaws. The main thing he is hated for - bullying, is something most popular characters in the series have done. EACH time I come across a post about why Snape`s the worst thing ever, that is pretty much the only point they have! Severus Snape has done a lot of bad things in his time as a teacher and should at least acknowledged and apologized that. But also... he started his job in his early 20s after suffering a though an immense trauma (loosing/getting killed the one person he loved/he thought cared for him and basically sentencig an innocent child to death at the hands of the master he only followed out of desperation and conditioning - and yes, again my personal opinion) on top of the previous 20 years of unadressed trauma (at the very least verbal abuse/neglect form his parents, extreme poverty, years of school bullying, at least one near deth experience, sexual assault, the general idea of bein coerced into a death cult, etc). He never choose to be a teacher. He was told to be a teacher by the man who kept him from going to Azkaban and gave him the glimmer of a chance to save his childhood best friend/the person he thought he loved. Not sure, but I think it's undestandable he might be a little high strung or sappy when teaching preteend who do not know how to behave... So the views of the Snape haters irk me. If you do not like him, fine. But most of the assumptions are innacurate and unfair (from my viewpoint) to judge his character as that. There is more to him, than just being a bully... And him being selfish - I do not really have a lot of roof of that one either... He maybe selfish in the way he kept his memories and feelings for Lily bottled up - but if he had been selfish he could just have said "f... you" and run along. EVEN JKR stated that Snape is all grey so neither bad or good. Just in between - as are most of us as well!

Dara Jeeling

You were spot on with your pronunciation of my username, but you can call me Luiz (my real name) if it's easier for you, Chorafini is just a nickname. So, about the "prank", that was terrible, I'm not a big fan of Snape as a person but that's clearly not okay, It's hard to believe that Sirius wanted him to literally die, but how would Snape escape? Saying that it was irresponsible is a BIG understatement. "I have just saved your neck, you should be thanking me on bended knee! You would have been well served if he'd killed you! You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black" I definitely did not remember Snape saying that. On another note, I'm really interested in your opinion on James saving Snape, Snape said that James only did it to save himself, but I personally think that he just thought that it was too much. I could be wrong, I wouldn't call this opinion biased for James because the only one that I really like on the Marauders is Lupin, i find the other interesting, but not my favorites. It has absolutely nothing to do with these chapters, but I was rewatching your Philosopher's Stone movie reaction and near minute 33 on the YouTube video Harry gets the Nimbus 2000, which was the best broom in the series at that point and your reaction was super happy and even said "winning already", how things have changed... Sorry to get off track, but it was so funny I couldn't stop myself from mentioning it here, keep up the good work, it's really nice having a reason to re-read these books after almos 10 years.

Chorafini (Luiz)

These chapters are some of my favorites in the series! I'm a sucker for lore drops and character depth/development. We've talked extensively about Ron, but James Potter also gets done dirty by the movies, and especially by the omission of this whole explanation. He was a great and loyal friend, and with the way Sirius and Remus talk about him, everything he did for Remus at Hogwarts, the way Hagrid and Dumbledore and McGonagall talk about him, it's easy to adopt Harry's current viewpoint. His dad is his hero, his role model, and a great source of pride for him. We know from later movies, and with more detail from later books, that James was not as perfect as Harry imagines him now, but he's a big part of Harry's self-image at this point in his journey, whatever one's feelings on James as a character might end up being. Also, poor Remus! So many hardships and tragedies to talk about in his life, but I'm just going to point out the one: Imagine your greatest fear being an inevitable, monthly reality. I'm sure something along those lines is the case for a lot of people in the world with chronic illnesses and such, but putting it into words really hits home. I feel like I had more to say, but I can't remember it so I'll leave it relatively short! Thanks for the videos, Veggie!

Q

"It's harder to do brave things when you're scared." Absolutely! That's why I admire Severus' bravery so much. When he realized what was happening, he set off to the Shrieking Shack at once. The place of his near-death experience, the place where he was almost mauled to death, the place that gave him PTSD. I don't think I would have been so brave if I had been in his place.

Hawwah

So while most comments are discussing something else, can we give three cheers to Ron and Hermione for being very good friends. It was chapter 17 and the relevant scene in the movie that made me realise Ron would never get a fair shake in the movies. What I had forgotten, was that Hermione also got a couple of Lupin's lines, too, not just Ron's. Frankly, I think Hermione is braver in the book, because she stands up for Harry even though she is absolutely terrified. It's harder to do brave things when you're scared.

Oh okay sorry for the confusion :D I did not reread the scenes and thought you meant the scene in the hospital wing.

Jonas (Methanoutput)

Thanks @H and @itsadancething for your feedback! I've slightly edited the post now - hope it's ok to leave like that

Katik

It's not explicitly explained in the movies why Dumbledore placed Harry with the Dursley's. It's only ever explained in the books (I think in 6 or 7??). I think Veggie might be confused by the question, or he'll start asking why Dumbledore placed him with the Dursleys and start theorizing :)

itsanursething

Can't really remember 100%, and I've been wrong about this kind of thing before (sorry again, Kunzite!), but I can't remember much about it in the movie. It never felt like a massive relevation for me when I read the books, though, so it's probably OK? If you feel unsure, it would still be a good discussion topic without the whole part about Dumbledore's reasoning. If Veggie already knows, he'll discuss it with that in mind. If he don't, it's still interesting to hear it from that perspective. (So I guess I'm saying "either solution is probably okay")

H

He's saying it twice before he gets knocked out. 'Get out of the way, Potter, you're in enough trouble already,' snarled Snape. 'If I hadn't been here to save your skin -' ... 'Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck, you should be thanking me on bended knee!'

Hairy Pothead

think the whole of this two chapters can win the most important/interesting part that they removed from the movies thus far . When you think about the context the movie gives you compared to the book you realize how little information and explanation they give you in the movie about basically everything that happens in the climax. They basically kept the twist and removed all the expansions to make it make sense in the story. I get why they did it but for me it removes the another one of the main reasons I liked the books so much, making the movies kind of meaningless for me. And last thing, I know a lot of people already told you this but giving criticism to something doesn’t mean you hate it. I really like the books but I can still acknowledge they have a lot of problems. So you don’t have to say “it’s not a criticism on the movie/book “, criticism is fine and it’s really interesting to hear.

Noi. S

Hi Veggie! Normally re-reading these book, while knowing what some actions I am currently reading about mean for the future plot, I don't have a problem distancing myself from that and enjoying the story as it is. These chapters though are one of two exceptions to this for me: It fills me with anxiety every time I read about these details knowing where they lead, and what could be if any of these happened differently! - If only Lupin hadn't forgotten to take his potion that day - If only Harry hadn't left the cloak lying around - If only Lupin hadn't left the map open in his office - If only Snape even in his anger still brought the wolfsbane potion with him as he pursued Lupin - If only Snape listened to the whole conversation before making his entry - If only anyone in the room at that moment stopped and realised what it meant when Snape mentioned that Lupin had forgotten to take his potion and it was the full moon I'm sure there's even more critical details there! Everything might have worked out well, but we probably wouldn't have had any of the following books :D Anyway, question for you Veggie, if everything did go well that night, Pettigrew got arrested and Sirius's name got cleared, do you think Dumbledore would have agreed to Harry living with Sirius instead of the Dursleys? Given Dumbledore had reasons for placing Harry with them in the first place, rather than with any other wizarding family let's say from The Order? Or do you think Sirius would override him as Harry's godfather even if Dumbledore had a different opinion?

Katik

Hey Hairy Pothead, i think the last part of your comment is a spoiler, since Snape is still unconscious at the point this chapter from the Book Club ends. But i could be wrong.

Jonas (Methanoutput)

Hope you are well Veggie! This book really shows Snapes selfish and sadistic side that was toned down a lot in the movies. He's enjoying abusing his position of power to torment students, to the point of becoming their greatest fear. In the Shrieking Shack he doesn't care about the truth, as long as he gets revenge. He's listening to Lupins story while under the Invisibility Cloak, but interrupts it and doesn't let them explain further. He talks like Lupin is a creature even though he knows that the potion is making him harmless. Sirius offers to come quietly if they bring the rat, but Snape would rather have both Sirius and Lupin suffer a fate worse than death, than hearing a truth that could possibly deny him the revenge. He then has the audacity to say that he's saved the trios necks, even tho they are armed while Sirius and Lupin are unarmed and haven't tried to hurt them.

Hairy Pothead

Allo' Allo' I was just..... Not much to say on these chapters that won't have been said already so will be brief. The reason for Hermione's reaction crying and hysterics at the Bogart where more to do with the self inflicted nervous breakdown she was about to have as much as anything else. So you will at least understand the marauders fully now, it not been in the film is like star wars without the "no I am your father". As for Brian Blessed, not long to wait for a goodish casting choice in three chapters time. Right now back to saving hyrule again for me.

Simon audsley

> "So Snape believes that Sirius actually betrayed James and his family which resulted in Lily’s death. More of a reason to hate one of his school bullies. He wanted revenge and he was really out to get it." Snape showed incredible restraint not killing Sirius on the spot. Although I suppose the lure of inflicting the Dementor's kiss on Sirius was just too much.

S1lm4r1l

alos... the way he levitates Snape out of the Shack... Making him hit his head and such - really lovely

Dara Jeeling

When I was re-reading these chapters, I kept thinking to myself "Veggie is going to love this; they're answering all his questions!" I've read this book many times, but I was struck by a couple of things this time. First, I was surprised by how willing Snape was to hand Lupin over to the dementors as well as Sirius. He even mentions the dementor's kiss. I know he doesn't like Lupin, but suggesting Lupin should have his soul sucked out is very extreme, even for Snape. I'm not sure he actually would have done it in the end, but it's very cruel to suggest. I was also really struck by Sirius' description of living in Azkaban. It made me emotional, especially when he talked about how his innocence was not a happy thought, so they couldn't take that away from him. I also loved how Hermione calls Sirius "Mr. Black." It's great.

Maria

I'm curious now, did anyone outside of the Marauders and Dumbledore know they had even USED the Fidelius charm? I mean, Snape said to hide them (the Potters) but I don't know if Dumbledore told him HOW he hid them. I mean, REMUS didn't even know they switched...

itsanursething

@Dara Yes, that's precisely what Karkaroff said in the Pensieve. Only Voldemort himself knew all the Death Eaters.

Hawwah

I always wondered if Snape even knew Peter was a Death Eater and if Peter kew Snape was. I mean, it would make sense that Voldemort sort of would not tell anyone who else were his followers, so that someone like Karkaroff could not give them all away... We also do not know when Peter joined (not that this is an excuse for him to "rat" out his friends) which would also explain, why Snape was not suspicious and was sure Peter was dead

Dara Jeeling

Thanks for the lookout guys, it has been amended. I appreciate that

Said

I was 8 or 9 the first time I read this book and, although I was able to understand it enough to pass an AR test, I feel like I'm noticing new things reading it as an adult and one of them being how immature Sirius is. He's in his thirties and while I know he's been in a horrible prison for twelve years he was an adult before going there and he's still convinced that what he did to Snape was okay. It's as if he didn't even think about how it would have affected Lupin if James hadn't interviened. Lupin referring to it as a "prank" also seems to downplay the seriousness of the situation.

Kattie Martin

Yes, please delete or change the second half of your comment. Snape telling Voldemort about the prophecy wasn't in the movies so it's a spoiler for Veggie.

Janie

Yes, that's right, it's a big revelation near the end of book 6! Definitely a spoiler

Katie

Hey Said, i think the last part of your comment is a spoiler. I think that Snape told Voldemort about the Prophecy is mentioned in the 6th book? But i can be wrong.

Jonas (Methanoutput)

Hi Veggie, We’ve already established and agree that Snape and Sirius are flawed and complex characters by now. I do believe one thing though. Snape has always protected harry as we know from the philosophers stone and the movies. He really thought Sirius was out to kill Harry and not only did he make a promise to Dumbledore to protect him but he also believed that Sirius gave up the Potters to Voldemort. Even if he did infact know Peter was passing information to Voldemort, he must have believed like everyone else that their secret keeper was Sirius. Even Dumbledore believed that. No one knew about the change of secret keepers. So Snape believes that Sirius actually betrayed James and his family which resulted in Lily’s death. More of a reason to hate one of his school bullies. He wanted revenge and he was really out to get it.

Said