Bonus 2 - Marvel & DC Comics

Hmm. Kinda missed alot of the dark parts of both comic companiesz. I was waiting for swampthing and constantine to be mentioned

Its true!

Thanks for the suggestions! On the list!

What! I have to finish these.

All those mentions of Archie Comics, and no mention that the end of Archie Afterlife has Sabrina the Teenage Witch becoming the Bride of Cthulhu? <a href="http://www.geekexchange.com/news/is-riverdale-turning-into-afterlife-with-archie/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.geekexchange.com/news/is-riverdale-turning-into-afterlife-with-archie/</a>

INDEED! Steve Ditko...Jack Kirby. My friends and I are convinced that Stan Lee feeds on the life force of his former business associates.

Macabre Mittens

i also would love to see that listener can send their homebrewed lovecraft inspired story to the show. every week one is picked of the submissions that have ben send , then read and afterwards discussed.

Wesley Vanroose

Another passing of greats in the Marvel universe. RIP Steve Ditko.

agree but charlie cox does excellent fight scenes, especially that one from season 1 in the hallway. really wished they'd do more with how he "sees."

The thing about batman's mask is such a huge illustration of how what works in drawn art just doesn't work in live action (or vice versa). I totally agree about Daredevil in live action looking better without his costume... though honestly I think the Marvel TV series err in the direction of not having enough crazy super stuff. It's like a zombie movie/TV show where they never say the word "zombies": they're so determined to be Serious Serious Serious (plus the occasional Jessica Jones snarky aside) that they've created a fairly visually blah over-realistic universe.

Jason Thompson

Speaking of Archie, I strongly recommend Archie vs. Predator. Great story. Dark, but great.

While the topic was Marvel and DC, you did cover independent comics as well. Did I miss it, or did you not mention Locke &amp; Key? Top tier Lovecraftian comic. Also, on a Spiderman note: snowcones. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzqUnL89WkM" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzqUnL89WkM</a>

I second this!

Alan Ricks

Hey guys! Thank you for more wonderful content! I will admit that even though I grew up in the 80s and am a very nerdy person in general, the only comics I really had any experience with were the aforementioned Archie, Betty &amp; Veronica and little bit of X-Men. Most of my superhero experience comes in the form of cartoons and the new Marvel movies. That being said I love your discussion on comics and you really make me want to learn more about the history, backstories and motivations of superheroes. So please keep it up! I also have some ideas for your bonus episodes and topics. In the normal HPLLP episodes you guys love going off on tangents then have to get sucked back into the topic at hand with your trusty cosmic horror audio queue. Similarly to how you got off onto a Spiderman discussion in this episode. Another podcast I listen to does weekly free episodes and then a Patreon bonus episode on those little side paths you weren’t able to follow due to time constraints or being slightly out of scope of the original topic. That format seems very suited for you guys. Another thought I had when I was going back to your earlier episodes is if you had interviews with Lovecraft/Cosmic Horror content creators. Like games, books, and kickstarters. I always really enjoyed those. I was a Lovecraft fan before I heard your wonderful podcast years and years ago but you singlehandedly got me into the Call of Cthulu roleplaying game. Maybe interview some authors of contemporary Weird Fiction. My favourite episode of yours is probably that reading of your original story. Forgive me but I don’t remember it’s name, but I believe one of the protagonists was a Vietnamese woman and they kept watching a creepy guy walk his dog. There was a Jamesian Wallop (That is the part of the story where the weirdness mounts to a horror inducing crescendo, ala M. R. James as told by The Podcast to the Curious) where the man dropped to all fours and sprinted like an inhuman beast. I still think about that. I’d love to hear more original fiction as bonus content. So in conclusion you guys are awesome and thank you for being a psychosis inducing bright spot in my life!

Alan Ricks

Hi Chad! Hi Chris! As a suggestion for a future topic (is this the right place for it?) I especially love it when you guys recommend stuff. You've already discussed Lovecraftian films and TV - how about contemporary Lovecraftian fiction? I adored the Johannes Cabal series by Jonathan L. Howard (book 2 - The Fear Institute - take place in the Dreamlands with a stop at Miskatonic U; there are riffs on assorted Lovecraft shorts (including the one with the cats attacking people) and Nyarlathotep (sp?) is a main character and he's a total dick. It's weird and hilarious and JC is one of my favorite quasi-Lovecraftian characters. Also, Cherie Priest's Maplecroft is about Lizzie Borden, where Lizzie Borden gave her father 40 whacks because he was transmogrifying in to a Deep One. Pretty awesome. Then of course there's Charles Stross's Laundry Series which is also one of my absolute favorites (the first was my favorite) and another one called American Elsewhere by Robert Jackstone Bennett which blew me away. And Caitlin R. Kiernan's Agents of Dreamland is outstanding. There are a lot of Lovecraftian and Lovecrafty books out there, but hey does this thing even make paragraphs these are some of my favorites. Love the show -- I've been listening for ages and I'm glad you moved over to Patreon so I can give you more dough. Take care! gaminette

gaminette

sorry Richard but really beg to disagree. I grew up with a white Nick Fury, Sgt Fury etc. and while the change was made to coincide with Avengers in 2000 it also worked perfectly. I know many griped then but a whole generation of white and black kids have grown up with this nick and it's wonderful. I totally get where you are coming from? There are studio execs who care not a damn about the history of these things and are just trying to sell more movie tickets, toys, happy meals, etc. but stories can be retold different ways to each generation and be more relevant for them. If they love it they will discover the past and appreciate it for what it was. One of my nephews only loves Miles Morales. That's his spidey. He's 12 and I've only recently gotten him to pay any attention to Pete (bc of movies). But he still sees Miles as Spiderman. I think that's wonderful. Finally, you know SJW is used by far too many too narrow minded people to attack women, POC, LGBT and anything that's outside their comfort zone. Well life is outside the comfort zone. Things change, we should embrace that. I don't really want to get into a fight and I hope you appreciate where I'm coming from. Having said all that, Capt. America aint no Hydra. Peace!

I wish you wouldn't straw man people who have a problem with the "social justice warrior" element to comics recently. It's not about not wanting different stories about different perspectives- that's fine. The problem many people, including myself, have is the quite obviously cynical switching of identity groups to appeal to whatever the given trend is. There is no genuine appreciation or interest there in diverse stories - it is a cold and calculating swapping of 'white men' for literally any other group, in the interests of increasing sales and virtue signaling. It is a business move which shows a total disrespect for the actual characters and stories - it is not the natural result of an organic story and character building process, it is cashing in on the current social climate of identity politics. This is a complex issue, whether you agree or disagree - and I know you guys are far smarter then to reduce this to just "TONY STARK SHOULD BE A WHITE GUY I CANT HANDLE OTHER STORIES". It's just not true. Good episode apart from that bit, but that really rubbed me the wrong way. If anything Marvel's cashing in on genuine social movements like BLM etc is insulting and manipulative to minority groups who deserve genuine stories and fresh approaches on their experience - not a simple swap job with pre existing characters in the most lazy way possible. Disappointed.

couldn't agree more. i loathed superman, batman justice league everything DC in late 60s early 70's 'cause it just seemed barely above mickey mouse and archie (sorry chad). i wanted kickass superhero stories but most of the time it was about what clever way to get Mxyzptlk to say his name backwards (again for the bizillionth time) or is it bat-mite or bat dog or bat rat screwing up the batcomputer (also again) and dont want to even start on allergies to yellow for hal Jordan. The only reason I picked up that first copy of Hellblazer in 84 (i think) was cause the cover art was so unlike anything I'd seen b4 and then the stories (god the stories). I guess I could add that Alan Moore (a writer with at least a complicated backstory as our beloved HP) "saved" batman for me, as well as daredevil. Chad is right that any screen portrayal of cowls with little pointy ears/horns look ridiculous (though I love Netfllix DD), Moore's DD and Batman are truly phenomenal or were rather.

wouldn't it be. that's a Netflix show just waiting. really hope he's a regular on that lovecraft country show/anthology series(?) from Jordan Peele (?) i keep hearing about. Just like Irene Adler who doesn't really do much in A Scandal in Bohemia but has so outgrown the limited words because of being such a great character, John Raymond Legrasse deserves a small screen or big screen treatment. Maybe I'm showing my southern roots, but he is/could be the one true lovecraft action hero. We're given enough to know that he wouldn't just file the "incident in the swamp" away and move on. It's easy (really easy) to imagine him keeping his own scrapbook of weird stories from Norway and elsewhere (better than the happenstance manner of the narrator) and ultimately if not being at Innsmouth certainly in the periphery. I know I'm more or less going down a lot of Delta Green stories, but to me John Legrasse and John Constantine are cut from the same cloth, just one being more restrained and less into punk music, but both hard-drinking, heavy smoking men ready to face down any cult or old one that rears its ugly head(s). BTW definitely checkout DART COC radio show though I really wish they had added an ending where they do go after John like they said they would and they find a face fulln of lead waiting for them.

Man, this episode was my spirit animal! When I was little and visiting the U.S. I would always try to get my parents to buy me Archie comics when we were at the grocery store haha. I've always been a little hopeless romantic, so even at a young age I found them very appealing. Good times!!! Also, I agreed with everything you said about Spider-Man. The Brand New Day stuff bummed me out and kind of turned me off from reading new Spider-Man stories. I have a couple of the "Marvel Masterworks" for Spider-Man and have really enjoyed going back and re-reading them– they still hold up!!! And finally, the response of "And no one gives a shit!" to the electric company Spider-Man theme song was equally hilarious and sweet. Thanks guys!!!

OOH! A Legrasse series! That would be sooooo cool!

oh yeah Constantine uses it all, but my point is he's much more like one of lovecrafts heroes, imagine John Legrasse if he learnt a little magic and was working class English. John knows that no matter what he does, it's never enough. It's only buying time. I love Marvel, but too often it's all wrapped up nicely at the end. Big bad is defeated, maybe not for good but Strange can sit/levitate in his sactum sanctorum and sip tea and not worry too much. he knows those entities are plotting but he knows he'll be ready. John typically wakes up each day not knowing where the hell he is if even knows who he is. Very lovecraft methinks. But I gotta reiterate. Marvel over DC for an untold number of other reasons.

Oh yeah reference: X-men 147 and the ensuing issues. Dunno, Constantine uses a lot of Judeo-Christian tropes (along with voodoo and almost everything else). The feel is pretty good, though. Marvel monkeyed with powers way too much in the 80's. Seriously turned me off the imprint.

Not disagreeing at all with either of you Macabre and Curtis, but still think Constantine feels more lovecraftian, every battle ends with no hope with more loss than victory with the knowledge it's all just been pushed back a little by a very broken man. Marvel uses the names but tonally I don't get it. Still Marvel all the way ( at least Spidey and Xmen as far as I'm concerned)! Maybe it's an age thing (not knowing anybody else's age here but my own which I assume is older) but reading that original Vertigo run of Hellblazer in the 80's in my 20's was more than eye-opening. It was the first time I really saw lovecraftian ideas used outside of the original writers (yeah Marvel's Conan and Krull wre great but that was just the original stories drawn). John was something new and while not being a Brit, being a disillusioned American in Reaganland, it really worked on so many levels. Always loved Dr. Strange but to me he's just the Avenger's Gandalf who ocassionaly takes Spidey on wacky adventures (which can de dark) but all's right in the end. Not in Constantine's world.

Sorry, Marvel had more references to Lovecraft: The elder god Chtonn has dark lovecraftian overtones. More blatant, a sunken island brought up from the depths hosted the X-men and Magneto. Hello? Sunken, evil city. Lots of bas reliefs and statues of octopi? Doesn't get much more blatant (R'lyeh). Even in the Pacific ocean.

I can't relate to DC characters at all. My favorite has always been Ghost Rider...Johnny Blaze is a train wreck when he isn't Ghost Rider and that makes him relatable to the reader in ways that a flaming-headed, supernatural badass aren't; you need a good dose of "who is this guy, anyway?" when he isn't blasting hellfire everywhere to keep it interesting. Great Lovecraftian comics (other than the obvious Hellboy) Locke and Key, Ragemoor, and The Woods. Topic show idea: an episode on Guillermo Del Toro or biographical episodes on guys like Clark Ashton Smith or Robert Bloch.

Macabre Mittens

I enjoyed this episode quite a bit, even though I was never a Marvel (or Spiderman) fan. I would like to make a mention of the lovecraftain in DC comics, though. There was a limited series of an altenate universe Batman titled "The Doom that Came to Gotham". It's a quite brilliant mish-mash of 1920s flavoured Batman and several lovecraftian tropes and monsters. Great stuff.

I think a dramedy @ chad's childhood would kick ass on HBO or Showtime (Wonderfulless Years?)

I love the "variety show" idea. If you throw those in a couple of times a year, I think it would make a great change of pace.

You are right Brian and I wouldn't want to dismiss Stephen 'a pedigree and really enjoyed all his battles with Shuma and other great old one like entities but I'd still argue Constantine is a more lovecraftian hero due to always putting his sanity and/or soul on the line. Can't believe this is the second time I siding with D.C. over marvel, but all of marvels sorcerers strange wiccan scarlet witch etc never have whole losing themselves because of their interaction with sanity destroying creatures. Besides john is just a working class warlock while dr strange is sorcerer supreme

I think you and Mark Millar are spot on about why the Marvel movies work and the DC one’s don’t - and it’s also why the CW DC shows work. At their heart, they’re not really about the Green Arrow, Supergirl and The Flash - they’re about Ollie, Kara and Barry and the people they care about.

Lol, nice plug for your comic, guys!

Parker Longbaugh

I took a comic book art class in 1992 when I was 12 from an aging old fan. He told us that the problem with DC is that it was just lame by the 1960s. He said "when Daredevil was fighting The Owl on the pages of Marvel, there was a entire issue of Superman about flying too close to the sun, his hair grew out and the barber was unable to cut his hair. The scissors just kept breaking. Whereas Marvel was cool, had a lot of style, compelling characters, DC was completely out of touch." For me, DC just never had the appeal. Yeah I loved Batman, but Batman is very much a Marvel style character in the DC universe. That being said, it's easy to forget that Neil Gaiman's Sandman is a DC character. The Vertigo imprint was just pure genius. I would trade any marvel character in the world (yes including Wolverine) for Dream any day of the week!!

I was super excited to hear this one, because when I think "Lovecraft in Marvel Comics" I think about Dr. Strange... so I was pretty shocked he didn't even get a mention! In the 70s, Strange was always going up against weird extra-dimensional beings, nameless cults, and such. The run of Marvel Premiere that's been collected a few times (A Separate Reality, Essential Dr. Strange vol. 2, and elsewhere) is basically Strange getting taken through Lovecraft's greatest hits (although the editors at the time gave all the inspirational credit to Robert E. Howard), culminating with the super-Weird elder evil Shuma-Gorath, whom most people nowadays probably recognize more from the Marvel v. Capcom series. Anyway, if you guys aren't familiar with that run, I strongly recommend you check it out, as it's, as they say, highly relevant to your interests. Maybe a follow-up to this episode might even be in order? Thanks for all the good stuff, guys!

Brian J

Name dropped in back to back episodes? My life has fleeting purpose in the face of oblivion. Great show. An evergreen topic that can be explored with a variety of media and publishing companies. While I think DC has more elementary connections to Lovecraft (ahem, Arkham Asylum), there may be more events inspired by Weird Fiction in the Marvel Universe, like Atlantis Attacks (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis_Attacks)" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis_Attacks)</a> and the "What If..." it inspired (<a href="http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/What_If%3F_Vol_2_25)." rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/What_If%3F_Vol_2_25).</a>

I love these bonus shows! Can’t wait to see what else you guys do with these!

Speaking of reading up, I started listening to your podcast when I was 10 and it did paint an interesting picture of adulthood.

I don't know if we can use this space to suggest topics for further shows, but in the off chance that you guys would consider doing an episode on HPL/Weird Fiction's influence on popular music, I'd particularly love to hear you guys' reactions to Tom Waits' spoken word piece "What's He Building In There?".

Clint Page

umm just had an idea (probably too obvious and therefor stupid) for another theme discussion show, but why not an episode on other Lovecraftian podcasts (is that helping the competition too much?) You guys have refrenced some (Robert Price's Lovecraft Geek and others). I'd definitely want to throw in Pseudopod. Not always lovecraftian horror but more often than not, and mostly very contemporary writers/stories. It's my go too bed time stories. Not you guys.

Really liked this one, guys. A suggestion- you could call these side episodes "Essential Saltes" since, while they're not the main meat of the podcast they certainly add flavour.

too manyto list at first MAGOOA but I would mention Richard K Morgan's Altered Carbon (books and netflix series). Delving into transhumanism themes one aspect not deeply explored in s1 of tv show is that the technologzyto do this is alien and not completely understood. Looking forward to that in S2. but I second your list for a future dicussion show. Of course what would HP make of steampunk and is it at all lovecraftian?

Great discussion. Oh Chad why am I not really surprised you sided with Iron Man? But that is a great mom-son story! I dont agree with the person who argued that DCs problem is these are powered beings before their alter egos. While that does explain a lot, it is not the fault of the comics. It's the fault of LCD approach to making movies for American audiences where everything has to be reduced to the absolute simplest point and orign stories rehashed ad nausem. Clark Kent in the 40s and 50s had stories that any fan of Smallville would easily recognize. In the earliest iterations, Lex was in high school with him and they had a reverse Parker/Flash relationship (without Clark bullying of course, except in Lex's mind). You are obviously right that with all tv and movie portrayals (from George Reeves to Tom Welling to Christopher Reeve) it was more about the powers, but not a fault of the original material. So, as I am apparently outing myself as a DC fanboy, I have to say hell no! Marvel forever! My dad gave me all the comics of DC he had from 40s - 50s when I was a kid (all lost to time of course) trying to get me into it, 'cause as a kid in the 60's I hated Batman. Liked Superman (loved almost everything in black and white - weird kid) but hated hated Adam West, which as someone who would come out of another closet later, I suppose that's ironic cause of the campiness and even queerness of 60's Batman, but it just didn't do it for me (although loved all the Catwomen - so definitely was a little gay boy). But like most, Spiderman was my favorite from the start, mostly for reasons you both noted from the early comic books - a deeply underappreciated superhero who is always walking a fine line not to shout it out - thanks Uncle Ben for laying down that ironclad aphrosim and then dying in a way that makes it Pete's fault so even more inescapable. But in costume he bacame the acerbic smartass teen we (every nerd) wanted to be. I, too, Chris was devastated at that storyline in Civil War. NOOOOOO! He does not deserve that after 50 plus years of the crap he's put up with. And anything to do with Stark normally infuriates me - a hero I love to hate- his pain/journey has never equated with Pete's/Steve's or any mutant (good or bad) so even though he is inevitably right, I've always wanted him to just shut up (kind of enjoyed watching Thanos take him out). Regarding Aunt's May's age, that's how most adults looked back in the day Chad. Watch Jaws. Notice how Chief Brody and every other parent on Amity Island have teenage kids but clearly look like senior citizens. Remember jogging wasn't invented until the 70's and the Marlboro Man was most people's true superhero then. Back to the matter at hand though, lovecraft or lovecraftian things in comics, I really like the Conan Marvel stuff. I especially remember The Tower of the Elephant and the panels where Yag-Kosha talks about coming to earth, very old onesy. But if it's lovecraft in comics you really have to return to DC and Constatine (and Swamp Thing). I very much recommend the original Vertigo series. Sure it's got a lot to do with anti-thatcherism and punk sensibilities, but I truly believe John is a hero HP would appreciate. No he doesn't faint (most of the time), but his hold on sanity is clearly tenuous and those stories are never particularly happy ending. Not simply as in Pete's my life sucks 'cause nobody really knows and and - but I've got amazing powers, but as in there are unknown/unknowable things beyond the veil which most dumb sods will never know about, but I(John) do know and have to stop it even though every time it costs me a little more of myself (and not because of any great power bs, but because I'm really into this stuff and I can, maybe). That is Lovecraft! Of course, when he does interact with any of the mainstream "capes" he expresses the problems (beautifully sarcastically as only an Englishman could) you all mentioned (especially with Batman). I will not speak of that Keeanu travesty. I like the character on Arrow, but have not seen much of the Legends series so don't know if it is touching on anything HP related. I would guess not. Sorry to go on and on. Surprise that comics is something a geek could harp on much more than 19th century ghost stories.

I'm always happy to hear a couple of people geek out over their shared love of something in the nerdoshphere. Having said that, I do hope you'll leave our friendly neighborhood webslinger be for a while. I had expected you to get into Doom Patrol, Sandman, John Constantine, Swamp Thing - maybe even touch on The Question - as somewhat related to HPLand on the DC side. Perhaps Dr. Strange on the Marvel side..? At any rate, good on you both and Excelsior! Edit: Thought I should add a thought about future shows. HPL was clearly motivated in part by the scientific advances of his day. It seems a lot of HPL-inspired lit sticks with the science that HPL would have been familiar with. I think that does him a disservice. I'd love some speculation as to what he'd make of more recent discoveries - especially as relates to the genome, genetic manipulation, cloning, CRISPR, etc. What kind of stories might he have written? Has any writer picked up that mantel?

Enjoyed all the comics discussion, and I'd be up for you guys to do a deeper dive into Spider-Man one of these days. Peter Parker really is the Everyman hero and the character that best embodies what made Marvel comics stand out as fresh and hip during their 60's run. I'll also cast a vote in support of the variety show idea, always been keen on hearing and reading your original work.