Shopkeeper Fleeing | Patreon Poll #44
Added 2023-08-07 15:00:49 +0000 UTCA quick note for users on the Patreon mobile apps: multiple-choice polls don’t seem to be working correctly right now. You may need to refresh this post multiples times to be able to vote for more than one option.
Hey Patrons!
Lately I’ve noticed a bit of discussion both in the Patreon discord and more widely about shopkeeper fleeing behaviour. This is a design element of them that I’ve been hesitant to change before, but as shopkeepers were already adjusted recently, (and, to be honest, it also makes for a easy-to-implement poll) I thought now might be a good time to hear some more concrete feedback on it.
The strength of support for each choice om this poll will influence what changes (if any) I make to shopkeeper fleeing behaviour in v2.2.0!
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Please vote for all the options that you like, not just for your one favourite! I allow multiple votes as it means that a higher proportion of people will end up voting for the winning choice.
All patrons are encouraged to share their opinion by commenting and voting, but currently only the votes from Golden+ Supporters are counted when determining a poll winner. Votes from Shattered Supporters are worth double!
Change Nothing
As it says on the tin: leave things unchanged. Currently shopkeepers flee whenever they would otherwise take damage or become debuffed. When they flee they take all of their items with them, meaning the shop is effectively deleted.
Soften the Penalty
Shopkeepers could simply be agitated by combat in their area, instead of instantly running. They might give a warning first before retreating, or demand a fee from the player before buying/selling again. This would preserve the current mechanic, but lessen the penalty compared to shops being deleted.
Note that shopkeepers will still instantly flee during ascension, or if you are caught stealing.
Make Shopkeepers Invulnerable
To better align with other NPCs, shopkeepers could also just be made to take 0 damage and ignore all debuffs. This is already how questgivers behave and would mean that the player would never be able to make shopkeepers flee by attacking them or fighting near to them.
Note that shopkeepers will still instantly flee during ascension, or if you are caught stealing
Comments
Actually, *also* make them flee when that blazing champion sets their scrolls on fire... That said; I always expected shop overhaul to move in more established directions: No merchandise **on the floor**, instead barter menu and items on the map replaced with decorative counter/shelf tiles, or as chest(s). In that case of course the first idea wouldn't apply. But I never felt the shops beaming away to be unbalanced, that's exactly the kind of challenge fitting a permadeath roguelike. And that includes scroll-of-fear/skeleton damage bad luck.
Robert Heinig
2023-08-08 21:34:29 +0000 UTCthat's true, but my point remains that losing QoL should not be a penalty for a small mistake. i do usually buy the bag immediately, but it's entirely possible to be unlucky (didn't get enough gold, urgently need healing and remove curse, cant afford bag after that) and just end up screwed over
Lassoloc
2023-08-08 20:59:43 +0000 UTCThat's a good point! Maybe it could still add interesting gameplay/lore/immersion with a warning. I guess invulnerability is just the quick and dirty solution (which is generally not the best)
1-800-thewolf
2023-08-08 20:07:56 +0000 UTCI agree that losing bags feels awful, but I don't think this is exactly an apples to apples comparison, especially when you're referring to games taking away something the player already has. Also, the first thing a player would do when entering a shop floor it to buy the bag.
Shattered Pixel
2023-08-08 19:53:25 +0000 UTCHaving some kind of softer penalty allows for a lot more room to maneuver here. If the shopkeeper does flee on the second hit, it would be possible to have him say something the first time which makes this more clear.
Shattered Pixel
2023-08-08 19:51:17 +0000 UTCI think that's well put. There might be some potential for interesting gameplay mechanics if the penalty is softened, but still, I feel like that could be pretty darn punishing for the player. Let's say a new player reads a scroll of fear in the shop (I wouldn't normally expect that to be a problem... but it is); maybe they get a warning from the merchant. Then player kills a skeleton next to the merchant and then the whole shop vanishes. That just feels bad and completely unintuitive. Remember that the very first enemy a player sees when they see their very first merchant can be a skeleton, and if they kill it next to the merchant, he vanishes.
1-800-thewolf
2023-08-08 16:51:04 +0000 UTCas I've said on discord, i think the bags are the main culprit here. so much QoL has been built on the assumption the player will get all four bags (oh, inventory management will be better when bombs can go in the holster. oh, quickslots will be better with new bag functionality. oh, inventory management has gotten so much better recently because of bag changes) that taking them away becomes **punishing a player by removing their QoL**, and that just isn't fun. i wouldnt care if the shopkeeper up and left with literally everything else, but the fact that you can lose quality of life features with one simple mistake isn't good game design imo. what if taking fall damage permanently removed your map in the corner of a shooter game? what if whiffing too many attacks in a row had a chance to permanently remove your health display in a fighter game? these would rightfully be considered terrible decisions, and yet at their core it's the same thing: removing player QoL over an easy to make mistake
Lassoloc
2023-08-07 23:11:43 +0000 UTCWould be cool if he picks up some of his items to fight you if he catches you stealing. But warning first if he gets attacked in some way. Or some special events like cursing all items when he gets one-hitted or spawning wraiths.
Sebastian Riedel
2023-08-07 22:17:32 +0000 UTCRather than merely disappearing, perhaps the shopkeeper could instead retaliate—if the player wins, the items in the shop remain but there wouldn't be a shop on subsequent floors and if they lose, the penalty is obviously death or if you cheat death with an ankh, the shops are still gone.
Mephistopheles
2023-08-07 18:13:43 +0000 UTCReally fair point, feels like it comes up pretty rarely and when it does it just punishes a newbie!
Newt the Newt
2023-08-07 18:12:07 +0000 UTCI agree that there's a risk of convenience creep, but something like this is unlikely to affect the game's overall difficulty. It's more about game feel in this case.
Shattered Pixel
2023-08-07 18:03:21 +0000 UTCI sort of already feel like the game is getting easier with QoL changes. I like not changing the shopkeeper
Newt the Newt
2023-08-07 17:26:02 +0000 UTCCharge the heck out of someone who fights in their store. Double the prices or whatnot.
Thomas Lawless
2023-08-07 16:34:32 +0000 UTCI like the idea of making them invulnerable and then him going. "try and hit me? The shops closed." all the items disappear but he's still standing there and refuses to sell you anything. Maybe if you try and hit him about he just leaves. 😂
Chewyou
2023-08-07 15:17:28 +0000 UTCas they stand now, the current non-canon shopkeepers could benefit from being invulnerable to avoid frustration. however, whenever you end up designing/adding the newer ones, they definitely should not be. maybe the penalty can be different for each one, for example maybe if there's a thieves guild shop, maybe the shopkeep will attack monsters that enter the shop, but after killing 3 or so will get mad that you're attracting attention and raise prices/leave if you keep doing it, idk though its your game after all but maybe the "damage the shopkeeper" penalty should be more dynamic depending on who it is
Alyx
2023-08-07 15:07:27 +0000 UTC
