Patreon Poll #7 - June 2020
Added 2020-07-06 15:01:59 +0000 UTCHey Patrons!
Before we get into the poll itself, I’d like to share a couple of changes I’m going to make to how these polls work:
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Previously I tried to make each poll about something I’m currently developing, so that you guys can see the results of your votes quickly. This makes it tricky to commit to a specific schedule though, and we’ve consistently had months without polls as a result. So, moving forward I’m going to be a bit more flexible about what is polled, and will ensure that a poll will always go live in the last Monday of each month, just after the weekly.
Regarding timing, I’ll try to make polls about what’s coming in the next update as much as possible, but they may also now cover things that I’m quite sure I will do, but aren’t in the middle of actively developing (soon-ish, if you will).
I’m also going to try and be a bit more lenient on poll subject matter, as not every poll can be about a new game element or a rework. This will have to be judged on a case-by-case basis, but Ideally, I’d like a balance where polls are interesting and have impact, but don’t always take up a large chunk of dev time. I’d love to hear from you guys, if there are specific topics you guys would like to see.
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For this poll though, the question is going to be pretty major, partly as an apology for being late! It’s no secret that some of Shattered’s subclasses are better designed than others, so I’ve pulled together what I think are the three most improvable subclasses and my thoughts on how they could be made better.
The winner of this poll will have these ideas developed on and will receive improvements in a future update! I don’t have a definite plan as to when this may end up ingame, but one of the updates when I’m incrementally rolling up the new gameplay system is a likely candidate. Perhaps the update after 0.8.2, or the one after that.
Gladiator
Currently the Gladiator is very rigid. Only specific builds are able to make strong use of combo, and more often than not the player just has to make do with the basic 2 or 4 attack finishers. I have good reason to believe that most of the subclasses power is coming from clobber.
I’d like to make combo easier to increment and retain, and then adjust the finishers around that. I do still want to emphasize fighting multiple enemies, but this could easily be relaxed to ‘go find a new enemy soon’ instead of ‘fight multiple enemies at once’. I might even like to try making access to specific finishers more flexible as well, so that you’re not always just locked into a single choice.
Battlemage
The core idea of the battlemage is excellent, but most of the actual powers are simpler than they should be. This is partly reflective of when the battlemage came into existence. What basically boils down to enchantment effects worked well in 2015, but nowadays I can do better.
What I’d like to do is examine each battlemage ability and make extensions/tweaks on a case-by-case basis. All of the effects that are just an enchant trigger are obvious candidates for improvements, and in general I’d like to make these on-hit effects more involved. I’ll also probably look into adjusting or removing the charge gain on-hit, as doing so would give me a lot more room to make the various on-hit effects powerful.
Freerunner
The core theme of the freerunner is great, but currently the subclass doesn’t offer much in the way of interactivity. My intention with the subclass was for the freerunner’s power to require constant movement, but currently it’s both more accessible and less noticeably powerful than I’d like.
I’d like to either make the existing momentum system more involved, or ditch it entirely and have some new power that’s based on movement and evasion. Keeping momentum would require changing how its maintained, possibly making the movement requirements much steeper, but granting a bigger benefit. Switching to a new power might involve something that isn’t as persistent as momentum, but which grants a more powerful boost when the player chooses to use it.
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Please vote for as many options as you like, you don't need to vote for just one! I allow multiple votes as it means that a higher proportion of people will end up voting for the winning choice. It also lets me gauge interest and lets polls be a bit more flexible, I might choose to implement the top 2 choices in some polls for example.
All patrons are encouraged to share their opinion by commenting and voting, but currently only the votes from Golden+ Supporters are counted when determining a poll winner. Votes from Shattered Supporters are worth double!
Comments
Understand. I just think that the problem you have described here is already in game. In similar form.
ObisMike
2020-07-08 06:45:27 +0000 UTCFair argument, it's definitely better to do things gradually than all at once. But there is still the fact that there are more classes that need some care. Can't wait to see what you come up with! :)
ObisMike
2020-07-08 06:39:49 +0000 UTCThe upgrade transfer power for the staff is extremely potent, so it sort of has to be restrictive like this. If, for example, the staff returned the previous wand when switching imbues, then there would be nothing stopping the player from immediately spending every scroll they found on the staff, comfortable in the knowledge they'd never waste an upgrade. It would also make the mage much more powerful in general as he'd get to keep the initial magic missile wand.
Shattered Pixel
2020-07-07 20:01:03 +0000 UTCThe levelling system changes will also have implications for the game's classes, but I'd prefer for this process to be iterative as quality tends to suffer when I try to add/change a lot at once. And so something has to come first, which (for subclass changes) is what this poll is deciding.
Shattered Pixel
2020-07-07 19:58:35 +0000 UTCAlso, little off-topic. I think that mage's staff deserves to be reworked. The whole mechanic of imbuing a wand with another wand, the loss of that wand and how the upgrades of these two wands add up feel off. Maybe it's just me, but it occurs to me that imbuing the mage's staff is not worth it at all.
ObisMike
2020-07-07 11:32:46 +0000 UTCI'm voting for battlemage and freerunner. I would like to see more complex abilities with these two classes. But I also agree with Zrp200. He looks at the problem from a different point of view and has good reasons for rework of gladiator. That said, I think that more classes have their weaknesses/boring aspects and over time they should be given more attention for possible adjustments. It doesn't feel right choosing just one. Why not combine the rework of subclasses with the planned additions of leveling system?
ObisMike
2020-07-07 11:15:52 +0000 UTCI picked these three because I felt they were the most 'improvable', but I do agree other subclasses could do with improvements too. The main thing I want for warlock is to encourage builds that rely on both a weapon and a wand. It could do a better job at this, but I don't expect improving this would substantially change its base mechanics.
Shattered Pixel
2020-07-06 21:43:20 +0000 UTCHere's my obligatory long post on my opinions. By long, I mean LONG. Hopefully you (voters/evan) find this helpful or insightful I'm voting for Gladiator and Freerunner, though really this is a vote *for* Gladiator and a vote *against* Battlemage (part of the reason I'm voting for freerunner). BATTLEMAGE: Yes, battlemage is relatively boring. But really, it's the fact that mage himself is extremely straightforward. It's all so procedural, and the reason for this is not, in my opinion, solely or even mostly due to battlemage. I want to make clear that mage is unique in that his subclasses cover every possible build he could possibly do without exception. At high level play, one does not build for his subclasses _at all_. If you're depending on the staff for combat to the point where you don't think you really need a melee weapon for fights under ideal circumstances, go battlemage. Otherwise, go warlock. There are no exceptions unless you go to challenges (warlock is just better in challenged runs). I strongly believe that any rework to battlemage would not change this dynamic in any positive way, and at worst it would actually harm mage's versatility. In this case, I'm very glad evan gave some thoughts on what he might do, as I'm not fond of them at all: Right now, battlemage's main appeal is actually the very on-hit staff recharge that evan threw around the idea of removing. The enchants are very secondary, and in most cases I could do without them if it meant getting that recharge when I needed it the most. Targeted improvements that improve the performance and viability of utility battlemage (support wand + battlemage + other wands) would be neat, though I think that's more of an issue with individual imbues rather than the subclass as a whole. FREERUNNER: Freerunner is odd because it's beloved by high-profile rogue mains (looking at Hacatu especially), but it simply doesn't do anything interesting. It has the least interesting subclass perk in the game: movement speed, something already given by an in-game item. Thanks to this, Freerunner has 0 subclass-oriented builds. That said, it pairs well with Assassin, for sure, making up for Assassin's "exclusivity" by being incredibly versatile (thanks to being so damn weak). Versatility is all it has, but that's not even from its perk, hilariously. It's from the cloak. Wands of Lightning and Corrosion (almost certainly Freerunner's most powerful builds) are already amazing on a pure Rogue, as the cloak gives the distance needed to really abuse the wands. Freerunner simply takes pressure off of the cloak by reducing reliance on it/found items for kiting. A subclass-specific synergy that cannot be claimed already by the base class would be really nice, and thus this gets my vote regardless of what ideas Evan may have for it. GLADIATOR: Now, onto the **real** thing. WARNING: EXTREMELY LONG GLADIATOR RANT INCOMING Summary of rant: Gladiator is THE subclass that needs to be reworked due to its existing polarized performance, regardless of what its rework is (as long as it doesn't make it worse, lol. Full: Currently, Gladiator has many "soft" synergies and builds that rely on its clobber ability (crossbow/sharpshooting/lightning or other wands), which are its most accessible and justifiable builds in most games. However, it's really wasting its power; my favorite gladiator builds all have rings of accuracy, which simply put just unlock its potential and turn it into a subclass that actually outclasses berserker in every way. To get what I mean, I'm going to give an example. Berserker does armor dumps, just take a plate armor and bring it to +9 to win. Gladiator has a finisher called Slam, which deals his armor's defense roll in addition to his standard weapon roll, and on top of that gives seal shielding equal to 1/3 damage dealt, which can overflow and does not go away naturally. Thanks to this, you can have a build where you take little to no damage, have a bunch of shielding to stop the hits that do go through with an easy way to restore said shielding, AND you have access to Crush if desired, which in my opinion is Gladiator's true power. That's not even all you can do with rings of accuracy, as you can just spam crush (2 damage rolls/+150% damage with 8 combo) to end fights in what is essentially a guarenteed 8 hit or less battle. I'm not going to go into this variant any more due to this section's incredible length. Now, rings of accuracy are relatively rare, especially compared to the berserker's simple win condition of dumping a t4/t5 armor augmented to defense and having a damage augmented weapon. Meanwhile, without a ring of accuracy, Gladiator just seems to do little to nothing in most cases where he is otherwise superior to berserker, making it feel like the subclass is only partially there. Clobber is a situational help, and getting to 4-6 combo moves without acc is completely unreliable, vastly reducing its impact. Yes, berserker has this issue too without armor (rage becomes next to impossible to build to reasonable levels), but armor is easily accessible, while ring of accuracy is very much not. Really, the fact that a ring of accuracy is needed to unlock any potential is quite problematic in my opinion, and that's from the "two misses and you lose" mechanic; it's an arbitary restriction that just sabotogues the performance of an otherwise versatile subclass by adding a luck-based element that is only mitigated by the ring. Imagine being at 7 combo and then missing twice. Your combo is gone. Just gone. I really dislike those mechanics in gameplay from a consistency and power standpoint, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Please vote for Gladiator, and Evan, please rework it.
Zrp200
2020-07-06 21:23:33 +0000 UTCMe too, I honestly feel warlock is the least interesting subclass since the soul marking doesn't change his playstyle significantly and doesn't encourage many unique strategies.
Benthic
2020-07-06 21:05:11 +0000 UTChonestly, i find the warlock to be the least interesting subclass, i'm somewhat surprised it didn't show up on this poll. that being said, my votes are for gladiator and battlemage.
Lassoloc
2020-07-06 19:24:22 +0000 UTCVery fair point. I guess I just find that choosing a subclass is a critical moment - a point in the run where I decide how I will complete it. The warrior subclasses (in their current state) seem weak or uninvolved in comparison. Appreciate your explanation!
Max F
2020-07-06 16:40:00 +0000 UTCThe warrior's always been sort of tricky to make fun for experienced players, as he's meant to be the easiest to get a feel for, yet experienced players much prefer heroes that are harder but more rewarding (like the huntress). The gladiator is supposed to be the more complex choice, but it's not quite working right now as he's mostly just a clobber bot.
Shattered Pixel
2020-07-06 16:34:22 +0000 UTCHad to go with Gladiator. I love the Warrior class, but everytime I get to choose it feels like neither option is exciting or helpful.
Max F
2020-07-06 16:13:47 +0000 UTCWow, it's really hard to pick (⌒_⌒;)
Paul Stenne
2020-07-06 15:19:17 +0000 UTC