Attack on Titan 4x7: "Assault" // Early Access Reaction and Discussion
Added 2022-11-23 21:24:21 +0000 UTC
Comments
I mean, it's implied that Marleyan's culture grew under Eldia's thumb, and when it came tumbling down, they got lucky enough (or in the best position) to get several titans, and used them to their advantage. It's actually pretty rare that a civilization entirely crumbles under enemy occupation, it usually survives under one form or another, so Marley being around doesn't feel strange. And to be honest, I think that trying to argue that "well, old Eldia probably wasn't that bad" is kind of missing the point, and weakens the message of the story.
Alexandre
2023-10-25 21:27:50 +0000 UTCMany say that they are both in the wrong, but my question to people that think that way is: What was Paradis supposed to do at this point in time exactly? If the whole world just got together to exterminate on country, is that country supposed to sit there and accept their fate? And don't give me some diplomacy bs cause we all know no one except one country wanted to have a conversation with Paradis in the first place. I'm also not saying killing people is the answer either, just want to see what you would do in Eren's shoes.
Tibbers
2023-06-09 13:30:20 +0000 UTCI think Ben's right not feeling at ease with the morality of both sides. The whole point is neither Paradis nor Marley are on the right. The situation is just extremely messed up.
Flo A.
2022-12-03 03:07:13 +0000 UTCJust wondering... will the new episode be posted today?
Eren Jaeger
2022-12-01 01:41:59 +0000 UTCStill, I love the anime so I pretty much ignore it, but it really makes the "who was worse" brain exercise pointless to me.
trouty42
2022-12-01 01:24:08 +0000 UTCWhat nobody mentions is how Marley even still exists if they were indeed targeted by Eldia of old. I haven't read the manga so it's possible it's explained there but if Eldia hated and committed all these atrocities against Marley, then it feels awfully convenient (storywise) that Marley survived. That's not really how ancient civilizations worked, invading armies would crush their foes and the names of countries would change. That Marley not only survived but managed to become the dominant civilization of the entire world feels pretty unlikely.
trouty42
2022-12-01 01:22:47 +0000 UTCyou are the first reactors I have seen who acknowledges the airship pilot lol
M.N.
2022-11-28 21:28:39 +0000 UTC"it feels really divisive" yeah ...
pink
2022-11-28 00:44:44 +0000 UTCConsidering it's after a 4 year time jump, no, it's not as obvious as you're making it out to be. Eren also got taller, and the height of the pit-drop soldier could have been attributed to Armin eating the collosal and gaining it's characteristics, as Berutoruto was also quite tall and they were all still going through puberty.
Mukatutu
2022-11-26 09:08:46 +0000 UTCEren did what he had to. After being declared war on you dont wait for your enemies to hit you, you take every chance. Even more so if you are at such a disadvantage. I AM 100% on Eren side.
Forrial
2022-11-25 21:10:19 +0000 UTC@Aidan You're missing the important part. Yes, there's a difference between Marley attacking Paradis and Paradis attacking Marley. They aren't the same situation, but the entire point is that justifying objectively evil and amoral actions by citing your enemy doing something first is very dangerous. Using the logic of "you're evil because your group did something first" is the exact reason the world of attack on titan is a mess to begin with. It's why Marley and the ENTIRE WORLD feels justified in their actions against eldians. Yes, the people of Paradis who were killed in season 1 were innocent, but so are the vast majority of the people killed in this raid on Marley. The raid mostly killed eldians and low level individuals who have no responsibility for the attack on paradis, and foreign ambassadors and news people. Assigning guilt by association to Marleyans for simply being from Marley is the same thing Marley does towards Paradis and eldians in general, assigning them responsibility for actions they had no part in. The majority of the characters we see killed in this raid are likable good people: the gate guards friendly with the kids, Udo, Zofia, the kind elderly woman, Piek's sqaud, etc. Justifying Paradis as doing nothing wrong here totally omits the entire message of Attack on Titan. It's ok to think that Paradis may have some justification for attacking Marley and reluctantly think there may not have been many other options, but to pretend Paradis is doing nothing wrong and ignoring the evil they're committing because you don't like Marley as a group is just totally ignoring reality and the nuance of perspective that is so critical to the show. And claiming Paradis is totally separate from the history of the eldian empire is disingenuous if we're gonna associate everyone from Marley with what Marley has done; Paradis is literally the eldian empire, not a separate group or state. Paradis is simply the relocated eldian empire that ran away from it's responsibility in creating havoc in the world, with the same lineage of the eldian empire still ruling paradis continuously to this day. It's unreasonable to expect the world to see them as a separate entity with no connection to the past. While Paradis may have had their memory wiped the rest of the world did not, and they know what eldia is and did. And no, this isn't doesn't justify Marley and the world's treatment of eldians and paradis, just as paradis deserves criticism for what they just did to the world. In the context of this world its understandable why all the sides feel the way they do, but as audience members who have no part in this world and who have a more objective view of what has occurred, it's absurd to claim that Paradis are noble good guys and pretend that only one side here is justified.
Albertan Motorcyclist
2022-11-25 20:37:55 +0000 UTCAnna, that moment of self reflection when you realize you're cheering on/not as critical of Paradise doing the same thing that was done to them, is exactly what Isayma was going for. Sadly, many fail to realize that they are falling right into the same traps the story itself is condemning. I really hope yall watch the anime Monster after this.
D
2022-11-25 19:28:33 +0000 UTC@Jo none of that has any bearing on my point though, I didn't claim that it was a long time ago that Paradis was inhabited by eldians who were oppressive, I just said that it isn't currently inhabited by any of those people. 108 years isn't that long that's right, but it is long enough to ensure that none of the perpetrators of aggression are alive anymore. As for the threat from the king, that is a threat of self defence so it is very different from the threat made by Willy and does not justify an attack from Marley.
Aidan
2022-11-25 13:53:11 +0000 UTCAgain, I don't disagree with you. I'm talking about this on a story telling level and what decisions might elicit a certain reading and offered a perspective I feel like Autosave has been considering and offered a different perspective that might be easier to understand based on what the writer chose to show us.
ThatDarnRogue
2022-11-25 04:45:59 +0000 UTC@Albertan Motorcyclist This is a fallacy argument. Paradis left Marley alone, Marley struck first and directly killed a quarter million people who did nothing at all to perpetuate any of that, if it even happened (marley is to be heavily propagandist and Imperial themselves, so I don't buy it without independent confirmation). Then, after Paradis had a rebellion overthrow that government, Marley never bothered to even try talking to Paradis about their new intentions, instead assuming the worst.
Zyrus
2022-11-25 04:09:14 +0000 UTCEvery evil leader in history has their own justifications for killing civilians and children, it's all the same BS just from different angles.
Jason Chan
2022-11-25 01:08:36 +0000 UTCWhat Aidan said, also in order to meet the coming need for technological progress, the authorities of Marley turned their attention to Paradis Island and the plentiful fossil fuels it possessed. This is why Marley sent Marcel, Bertholt, Annie and Reiner to attack Paradis. They knew the King wasn't fighting back. They were just afraid of falling behind in technology so they want to murder everyone on the island to keep being the top nation that everyone fears. The people on the island never did a thing to Marley.
Bobby Vu
2022-11-24 19:58:19 +0000 UTCThis is an important distinction. People want to act like the grey morality means both sides have equal blame but that's simply not true. Whether Eren and Paradis struck Liberio or not Marley and the rest of the world were declaring war to exterminate the people on the island. So Eren's attack is just as much defense as it is revenge. The distinction there doesn't matter because it was the only path for survival
Jonathon Elkins
2022-11-24 15:56:33 +0000 UTCThis is a bad take on the situation, and I'll tell you why. Your words would hold weight if the King was still in power. He was part of the lineage that kept the people in the walls docile by force. That whole situation is gone and been overthrown. Marley /cannot/ know their intentions without actually asking them... and judging by what WIlly said, it doesn't look like they even tried. Marley is fully in the wrong here, no matter how anyone tries to justify otherwise.
Zyrus
2022-11-24 11:38:57 +0000 UTCBravo
vinny cucinello
2022-11-24 11:27:01 +0000 UTC@Aidan, but Marley and none of the rest of the world knew that Paradis had no memory of their actions. The King left them with a *threat* of global destruction if they ever retaliated, and only the Tyburs knew that threat was empty. And the big war that ended the Eldian Empire's reign was only 108-ish years ago - that really isn't *that* long ago. Like, it's very possible that older Eldians in both Paradis and Marley could have had grandparents or even parents that fought in that war, depending on life expectancy within the walls. I understand people being *more* sympathetic to Paradis still, they were put in an incredibly unfortunate position after having their memories wiped. But it's not as if this all came about for no reason.
Jo
2022-11-24 10:40:05 +0000 UTCthe difference is that the "eldian empire" that attacked first was comprised of individuals who do not exist anymore. Paradis is a society comprised of people who had done nothing, knew nothing and had no hostile intent towards anyone else (they didn't even know of anyone else), they just had ancestors who did wrong. On the other hand, the Marley that is currently being attacked is the exact same society as the one which sent titans to slaughter paradis and is full of people who believe the people on the island should be exterminated. It is not their ancestors who "attacked first", it is literally them. For that reason, it's very understandable to sympathise to a higher degree with paradis than with Marley.
Aidan
2022-11-24 09:04:31 +0000 UTCThey didn't attack until Marley and the rest of the world declare war on them...
Steve91
2022-11-24 08:28:13 +0000 UTCYeah I was a bit shocked Anna came to that conclusion
Sean Carroll
2022-11-24 08:21:34 +0000 UTCFake beard, height and eyes give it away not to mention different voice actors. It’s very obvious
Sean Carroll
2022-11-24 08:19:03 +0000 UTCYeah, narrowing it down to just "who attacked who first" would actually make the Eldians of Paradis *much* more guilty than Marley, at least considering them as a whole group. Literal generations of subjugation and forced breeding. Anna may be forgetting that bit of knowledge, or maybe just not considering it since we never directly saw it?
Jo
2022-11-24 07:33:03 +0000 UTCI disagree about not being able to fully empathize with the marleyans and marleyan-eldians. You say they attacked paradis first, but the same logic is what marley uses in the first place to justify their subjugation of the eldians. According to them the eldian empire attacked them and the world first and oppressed them for over a millennium. It makes the who did what first thing irrelevant, because both sides have dark pasts and have committed bad actions, which they justify with the old "the enemy did it first". I'm more with Ben on this one, I'm not 100% on any side and it hurts to see characters we love doing this to each other. But I think that inner moral debate we get inside our heads as we watch this show is one of its best aspects
Albertan Motorcyclist
2022-11-24 06:15:01 +0000 UTCand according to Willy the eldians killed several billion. But it's not about the numbers, its the idea that both sides are equally in the wrong and in the right, and at the end of the day are the same as one another
Albertan Motorcyclist
2022-11-24 06:07:54 +0000 UTCThats such a wrong way to look at it. Its both Marleyans and Eldians together fighting side by side getting killed by paradis here. At the end of the day paradis didn't see race as they attacked, they just saw them as enemies. Its not eldian vs marleyan, its paradis vs marley. Paradis is depicted in this episode as being the exact same as the marleyans; compare this episode to episode 1 of the show. The point is that its fucked no matter who is perpetrating it, who they're killing, and why they feel justified in doing so.
Albertan Motorcyclist
2022-11-24 06:05:40 +0000 UTCyes you're correct. My comment of those who deserve it are the last to be punished is supposed to make clear who are really to blame, which aren't the Marley civilians who are in their own way victims as well but of the war commanders declaring war and propagating it. I mention the Eldien's vs Eldien's is because it feels like that is often over looked and extra knife twist to the tragedy, and something that happens quite alot in the real world.
ThatDarnRogue
2022-11-24 05:48:36 +0000 UTCTo be fair they have very similar hairstyles
Night Sterling
2022-11-24 05:28:33 +0000 UTC260,000 people on paradis died as a result of the first wall being broken.
Sevenpsych
2022-11-24 05:06:35 +0000 UTCTbf it would still be a tragedy if it was marleyen civilians. Their children aren't at fault for the way the world is either. Not as large of a tragedy, but still one imo.
Wade Bell
2022-11-24 04:06:36 +0000 UTCI feel like I'm the only person who didn't think this was Armin lolol
Brendan Falvy
2022-11-24 03:58:19 +0000 UTCI think the thing to remember here is that I would feel way less bad about this whole thing if it was Marely fighting and dying at Pardis' hands. But it's not, its Eldiens they have caged in an internment zone, brainwashed as child soliders to use as their sword and shield. The real victims are the Eldians on both sides dying for Marely's war, that's the real tragedy. In the end, like so often times is the case in war, the people actually responsible will be the last ones to face repercussions, if they ever do at all.
ThatDarnRogue
2022-11-24 03:35:58 +0000 UTCAlways funny when people can't think that the pit-drop soldier could be a new character or not, haha.
AJ N
2022-11-24 03:33:13 +0000 UTCOh boy its episode 8 already next
Night Sterling
2022-11-24 02:14:05 +0000 UTCThe Thunder Spears flames are blue in the Blu-ray version of Season 4. It looks fantastic and the lighting really pops with the nighttime setting.
Rashad T
2022-11-24 01:46:41 +0000 UTCYour discussions on the next few episodes are going to be really interesting!
Rashad T
2022-11-24 01:31:05 +0000 UTCThe question why ymir and porco/marcel titans looked different is so interesting, I have my own theories and they point towards some extent of training, (the more u train the closer u are to the 100% potential of that titan's form) and genetics? we saw marcel titan with brown mane? and porco's blond, but none of that was possible to portray without spoilers cuz the author was put into a predicament in the historia episode (literally 1 ep away from the big revelation if it instead happened in 2x7 then that's a different story) when there's the flashback of ymir eating marcel vs during the episode transformed in real time comparison 1:1, they had to make her look exactly the same to hold the narrative and focus to be about "why did she eat a human?? their friend???" instead of the audience focus on "why does she has a bone mask and claws now and not in the flashback??" all I got going for me is that ymir had 0 training so her titan was at 0% potential aka stayed as her pure titan look.
Ego Jinpachi
2022-11-24 01:03:59 +0000 UTCLETS GOOOO!
GuamJohn
2022-11-24 00:09:27 +0000 UTCPorco is his name. Pock is a nickname (probably not a nice one, he doesn't like it)
Ray Quigs
2022-11-23 22:17:25 +0000 UTCI love Three Houses, glad to hear it mentioned so much
Michael Stallings
2022-11-23 22:14:32 +0000 UTCReacton aside, that's definitely one of your best sets of thumbnail expressions so far! Oh, and for some spoiler-free clarification on names (because you sure as hell don't want to look those up for AoT), The current Jaw titan is Porco Galliard, with 'Pock' being a nickname. So you've got some characters calling him 'Porco', some calling him 'Galliard' (not to be confused with his brother, Marcel Galliard), some characters calling him 'Pock' and the Paradis characters who don't know him calling him 'Jaw'. I think some confusion is understandable there!
Asteroidea
2022-11-23 21:54:42 +0000 UTCMy Patreon feed has been kinda dry this week but this is coming in clutch!
GB3
2022-11-23 21:26:10 +0000 UTCPEAK FICTION
hman70
2022-11-23 21:25:42 +0000 UTC
