Russia-Ukraine SITREP for 08 JUNE 2023 23:59* PDT - The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

Lol. I imagine there were a lot of Argentinians who needed therapy after that second half! Boy, the tension was torture.

Soccer fandom, how wild it is. After that game I officially passed the baton to the next generation. I am too old for such rollercoasters. But that first half was a beauty for the ages! ;-)

AnaR737

As I think of all those men heading into the cauldron. My heart bleeds for them and the task at hand. Slava Ukraini. My "prayers" go out the Ukrainian people. Especially the soldiers on the front. As a reader of history all my life I have no illusions when is comes to task at hand. Once again, Slava Ukraini.

Graham Thom

What an incredible world cup for Argentina that was. Beating the powerhouse French after seeming to have the game in the bag, then losing their advantage only to pull it out in penalty kicks and Messi FINALLY gets his world cup. I played soccer for 30 years and I never saw anything quite like it, at least not in a world cup. I am surprised everyone in Argentina didn't have a heart attack during all that drama. I had to leave the room for 10 minutes to collect myself after the French tied it up. It's still early. The Ukrainians are smart and innovative and most importantly they are in the right. They will figure this out.

I have been steeling myself for a blow like this. It just did not make any sense to me to think that everything would be plain sailing from the very beginning. The front is huge, the task is huge. They are trying to stay alive and free, their civilians safe, their economy going, and they also have to learn how to fight like NATO soldiers with a few week's training? I so wished for that to be true but they would have to be superhuman. Having said that, my country just won the soccer World Cup having lost to a really, really minor team in their first match. When your team is down, that is when you root the hardest.

AnaR737

Yeah, I know you're right Ana. Just going to have to see how this one plays out. Just to address the idea that this was a local commanders folly, I seriously doubt that command of this column was delegated to a sole local commander. Some of ukraines best equipment like the Leopard 2 a6 were in that column. No way they gave their most precious assets to a colonel to do with as he saw fit. This attack was likely devised by the very highest levels of the ukraine military hierarchy, not some local commander. That means the ineptitude extends to the very, very top which is a scary thought.

The Ukrainian column that got ambushed; the commander should have known better...The Russians used the same tactics that the Ukrainians used in Vulhedar...That commander has likely been relieved of command...those tactics are old, outdated Soviet tactics not modern NATO combined arms...

Honestly the west should not resupply equipment if this is how it will be used. 4 Bradley's destroyed so ukraine sends 4 more Bradleys to the exact same spot to be destroyed also? Not good.

True, but I still think it is better for this to happen at the very beginning. There is no teacher like defeat.

AnaR737

So many millions of dollars wasted and more importantly so many ukrainan lives. I think Ukraine and ourselves are the victims of our own propaganda. We talk about how inept and incompetent the russians are and we start to believe it. Hope this is a wakeup call for Ukraine and all of us. This is going to be a very, very bloody and painful offensive that could go either way.

The offensive has only just begun. The volume of western equipment put into battle so far is small, plenty of opportunity to take feedback and change things.

Also I don’t see the west being eager to re-supply equipment that is lost to ineffective soviet style strategies.

Has my favorite Lloyd Austin had a chat with Z about this? It’s going to break my heart if they loose this opportunity by clinging to Russian strategies.

I remember commentators last summer said that Kharkiv’s offensive showed good use of combined arms strategy. Is this not true or did something change?

Hoping that Ukraine learns faster than Russia that old, Soviet armour tactics don’t work against entrenched defences. Also hoping that Russia does not learn the wrong lesson, and start to imagine that fighting actual NATO would be like this. NATO has Western armour plus Western command with Western tactics. Also, Western air cover, including advanced fighters and strategic and stealth bombers. None of this stuff is magic or invulnerable, but it would be much harder to be on the receiving end of an actual NATO counteroffensive. Edit: my point is that NATO deterrence - and therefore, Western security - depend on not being underestimated.