TheBesties / The Besties Battle Bracket: roguelikes

This was a fun one! I feel like Darkest Dungeon should have been involved in the brackets. Really nothing else quite like it

Worthysoul

2024-11-28 20:42:59 +0000 UTC

When I first started listening years ago I dug around looking for a Streets of Rogue Episode. Would love to watch these four play it.

Rashad

2024-11-08 17:16:17 +0000 UTC

Not quite caught up on the patreon episodes… but I’ve been current on the regular feed for a couple years now… and the boys have never once addressed one of the best Roguelike games ever. Streets of Rogue.

Hallium

2024-08-20 23:16:03 +0000 UTC

While I don't disagree that Balatro is the better game compared to Dicey Dungeons, you abandoned the rubric! This matchup should have gone to the tiebreaker, and Dicey Dungeons blows Balatro out of the water with hours played on a review.

SeaPickles

2024-07-18 08:57:21 +0000 UTC

Inscription is a whole beast unto itself imho, but now that you mention it it's utterly bizarre that Vampire Survivors wasn't included

Elijah Hughes

2024-07-06 08:37:31 +0000 UTC

don't get me wrong, BoI was the first game I ever bought. I love it. But I think EtG does what BoI does better and with more panache, and I think neither of them are as good as Hades

Elijah Hughes

2024-07-06 08:34:52 +0000 UTC

I think that it's good that they do it like this, because it allows for conversations where it isn't just "well Hades is in the top 5 games of all time so it beats out all these other chumps by default". I love all the games on the list, but I don't think something like Slay the Spire or Balatro should get shafted just because they don't have the absolute powerhouse of a team that is SuperGiant polishing everything that isn't the roguelike to a blinding sheen. That being said, I still think it kicks BoIs ass and BoI is the first game I ever bought

Elijah Hughes

2024-07-06 08:31:36 +0000 UTC

I can’t explain it but I have developed so much affection for FTL over the years that it is my #1 cozy game lol

melanee

2024-06-30 23:50:55 +0000 UTC

I felt the same way re: Chris and BoI. Good to see I (or we) we're not alone in that. I never intended to be disrespectful to another person's art, but sometimes the aesthetic or theming of an experience can just be a total blocker.

Bryan Ische

2024-06-27 15:06:55 +0000 UTC

This may be a boring stance, but I'd love if the parameters of these brackets can incorporate the actual enjoyment factor of the game in question more. It can be frustrating when a game has the consensus of being better still gets ousted because it doesn't fit the specific rubric. I get not wanting to have a pure "is A better than B?" conversation, but I could see a third rubric of "which game do we like more?" instead of a tie-breaker in both this and the sequel bracket. These are tons of fun, I just got more out of something like the Final Boss bracket that was a little less in the weeds with the criteria. I may just be biased because I'm not a big fan of roguelikes, but Hades is a hall of famer for me, and it got kinda dumpstered by the criteria here.

Charlie Dalton

2024-06-25 20:28:42 +0000 UTC

I feel seen by Chris's comment about how he disliked the theme of Binding of Isaac. I feel the same way. I think that the game has a place in the world and it's fine, but I kind of feel alone when it comes to theming and such in games (and other media as well). I like to immerse myself in the games I play and I would like to imagine myself in fun worlds. I get something akin to seasonal affection disorder when a game's color palette is too bland or dark. I quit WoW twice, because I started questing in Darkshore and just felt so down about the environment. It sounds dramatic, but I used to feel less of a gamer, because I didn't like grim and dark and edgy themes. This made me feel validated in some way, even though Chris might not share my sentiment entirely. Keep up the good work, guys! These brackets have been so much fun to listen to

Takuma

2024-06-20 05:51:15 +0000 UTC

Regarding one of Justin's comment, I'm not convinced you can call BOI (paraphrasing) "more actually like Rogue" if you don't have any actual roguelikes on this list, like Nethack or ADOM. This list is all games further away from the actual Rogue on some meaningful axis, I just don't buy that statement as a valid point of comparison for this list. There is nothing wrong with this list, to be clear, as a starting point for a discussion, but none are particularly close to Rogue. Also kudos to Chris Plante for the critique of the aesthetics of BOI. I have not been able to play that game for that reason alone.

Craig Wright

2024-06-19 22:35:11 +0000 UTC

I would love a publishers bracket battle—if you had to take a studios sum total work and those were the only games you got to play for the rest of forever, who ya got??

Daniel Anderson

2024-06-19 20:05:37 +0000 UTC

I really cant stress enough that you should play Risk of Rain 2 when you get the chance (lol with all the time you have). It is an absolute banger. I don't think it is as multiplayer heavy as you feel it is. I own it on xbox, Pc, and switch, and I've played them all at a minimum of 30 hours. I might have a problem

Caleb Ackerman

2024-06-18 17:30:34 +0000 UTC

Pitting Hades vs Binding of Isaac is NASTY work

Will Metzler

2024-06-17 16:03:40 +0000 UTC

I love these because I get so mad (playfully) and I want to be in the conversation more than any other version of the pod

Ginger Jotunn

2024-06-16 13:55:03 +0000 UTC

Haven't played into the breach, but Slay the Spire if you like a deck-builder (obviously not a twitch-reaction game)

Daniel Urban

2024-06-16 04:41:15 +0000 UTC

Spoiler!! I would've bet a significant amount of money that the guys' would put Spelunky at #1 given the amount of times it is referenced in the main feed, love this result.

Daniel Urban

2024-06-16 04:32:00 +0000 UTC

This was a great episode! I really hope you guys do a Best Search Action Game episode in the future!

Jesse Worek

2024-06-14 13:45:02 +0000 UTC

To answer the above question: the two things I gravitate toward in regards to rogue-likes and rogue-lites are whether I can overcome RNG with skill and discretion and can RNG fully break the systems and expectations of the game occasionally. To that end, Hades and Slay the Spire are my favorites and the ones I find myself continuously playing.

E2theMFD

2024-06-13 02:52:15 +0000 UTC

Coming in late to the convo. Loved this episode, Justin nailed it in how masturbatory the genre is which is why it felt like each member had a different relationship with their personal favorite resulting in a tense elimination process. Frankly, I think BOI coasted on two facets: a weird and nebulous rubric and the general fear that Russ would turn inside out if Spelunky and BOI were both eliminated.

E2theMFD

2024-06-13 02:48:55 +0000 UTC

If Griffin is hopping into Noita, he should check out FuryForged's best minimal wand slot builds videos on youtube. Noita really is so hard to get into that having a few easy to use and strong options can help you get into the fun part of the game a lot faster. https://youtu.be/00Pm9uNs6wU

Ryan Arnold

2024-06-12 19:56:30 +0000 UTC

Me, having bounced off Balatro, but having logged a hundred hours in Dicey Dungeons: 👁️👄👁️

Teagan Mulford

2024-06-12 04:11:58 +0000 UTC

I'm at about 700 hours on it after a few months longer. Nowhere near that many hours for any other game

Jesse Koechling

2024-06-11 19:03:26 +0000 UTC

Should have finished the episode

Jesse Koechling

2024-06-11 19:01:00 +0000 UTC

I’ve listened to you guys talk about BOI for years, I’ve finally given it the chance and as someone who doesn’t really like rogue likes it’s pretty fun! Also you guys should try Streets Of Rogue, another fun roguelike that seems to be slept on

Trevor Lines

2024-06-11 02:26:10 +0000 UTC

Maybe someone has mentioned it here, but Edmund McMillen intends to integrate the item description mod into an upcoming update of the game

Jesse Koechling

2024-06-11 02:01:29 +0000 UTC

The fact that it’s “a game that is more of a roguelike” instead of “the more fun game” is CRAZY. The fact that hades was contender for best game of the decade with you guys and plant fully hates BOI for fully legitimate reasons is truly wild. We all know that hades is, moment to moment, a more enjoyable experience as a whole. I have 100+ hours in both but the experience of binding of Isaac doesn’t shine a light on hades.

Maxwell Findling

2024-06-11 00:16:13 +0000 UTC

This episode was an interesting one for me. I think I went in expecting a discussion about "what is the best rougelike game?", and it was actually "what game is the best at being the definition of a rougelike?". This meant I was pretty confused when some games got dismissed over others. It's a small nuance, I know, and I'm sure there will be people saying "duh, that's obvious" but it totally threw me this episode. Still, happy to see the Balatro love. It's nice to see roguelikes that don't rely on being good at twitchy combat being celebrated.

Hannah

2024-06-10 14:40:00 +0000 UTC

I think I'm broken because Balatro just won't click for me. I played more hours of Slay the Spire than bears mentioning, and I've really enjoyed some other games on here like Dead Cells and Hades. I played Balatro a bit, won (at least the way you win in the early game), and no part of my brain thought "must do that again". I just can't get a hook. I know apparently "everyone loves it" but I can't figure out why I'd keep playing.

Milly Farouki

2024-06-10 07:42:52 +0000 UTC

….help

Henry Roberts

2024-06-10 01:21:45 +0000 UTC

This episode finally got me to try Balatro and now 20 hours later in less than a week, you guys are right it's up there with the very best.

Paul McHugh

2024-06-09 02:22:30 +0000 UTC

Returnal on the list but not Vampire Survivors or Inscryption is... fascinating

Andrew van Baarsen

2024-06-08 10:32:09 +0000 UTC

If you're not getting through all 8 antes in balatro at least 50% of the time you're likely misunderstanding the rules on a fundamental level

Andrew van Baarsen

2024-06-08 08:38:42 +0000 UTC

I'm surprised that Backpack Hero hasn't gotten any love. The town parts were a little unpolished, and it was too easy, but it's fun, easy to learn, has a story, a killer gameplay loop, lots of run diversity, and even if most of my runs involve steamrolling everything once I hit critical mass, it's still so satisfying to tweak your backpack looking for that optimal positioning. Also, Balatro is amazing, I've beaten gold stake with every deck and am 2/3rds of the way to getting gold stickers on every joker, but there are too many runs where are you are just flat out doomed. When I die in Slay the Spire, it's very rare that I can't imagine making some other choices along the way would have saved me, but there are a lot of runs in Balatro where you don't get planet cards, or faceplant out of the gate. For that reason I definitely think Spire deserves to come out ahead.

thrillhou

2024-06-08 06:46:24 +0000 UTC

This is my favorite episode yet! I wish you guys did “Let’s Play” for all the games you talked about, especially “Into the Breach”

Epsilon

2024-06-07 21:27:52 +0000 UTC

yeah for sure!

Jim Withington

2024-06-07 21:10:25 +0000 UTC

But i totally understand the feeling. It's one of those intangible balances that separates video games that feel valuable from video games that feel like a waste of life minutes

Ian

2024-06-07 20:04:24 +0000 UTC

That's interesting, personally I find that balatro feels a lot better than vampire survivors because I'm more mentally involved when I'm playing

Ian

2024-06-07 20:02:11 +0000 UTC

I love into the breach and balatro. I need a sub list of roguelikes that don't involve being good at action games

Ian

2024-06-07 19:59:49 +0000 UTC

Man, I really don't like rogue likes. Lol. I think my vote would be Hades, but even that one is too easy for me to imagine as a tight 8-12 hour dungeon crawler or action RPG that I would have enjoyed much more.

jtingl

2024-06-07 17:34:27 +0000 UTC

The best way to get a better feel for Risk of Rain 2 is to play Risk of Rain Returns. I don't know that RoR2 would have clicked for me had I not played the first one and Risk of Rain Returns did a phenomenal job of polishing the first game back into a enjoyable current day experience.

SpaceDuck

2024-06-07 16:04:23 +0000 UTC

Now is such a good time to play Risk of Rain 2 with the DLC coming out soon! Would be a great option for a lull in releases

Maxwell

2024-06-07 14:31:53 +0000 UTC

"literally and figuratively" I might be listening to too many McElroy shows, but that must have been a reference to the latest MBMBAM, right?

Justin K

2024-06-07 14:27:34 +0000 UTC

Anyone nostalgic for Nuclear Throne/Enter the Gungeon should try Voidigo. It’s another twin stick shooter roguelite that does a really good job of capturing the fun kinda tactile feel of nuclear throne, and it’s a lot more approachable than Gungeon

Goositrous

2024-06-07 10:39:50 +0000 UTC

This episode went in directions I was not expecting, and really exemplifies why these bracket episodes are so good. With this genre, I could have seen people just putting their thumb on the scale for all their darlings. I'm excited for the goty bracket after this year of monthly bracket practice. Side note, surprised Griffin didn't bring Heroes of Hammerwatch to the table.

Ross Felder

2024-06-07 10:21:07 +0000 UTC

Just listened and heard there's been a disclaimer about RoR. Glad it got an honourable mention :)

Ian Mortensen

2024-06-07 05:42:25 +0000 UTC

Made the mistake of starting this episode mid-work day while I was walking back from an appointment because I instantly wanted to be playing balatro instead of going back to work

Kathryn

2024-06-07 01:04:24 +0000 UTC

Great episode! Y'all should check out "Nightmare Kart", it's a new indie racing game based on Bloodborne/Fromsoft games, but with a PS1 era aesthetic. Super small team, and free to download!! I'd love to hear what y'all think <3

Icky Slicky

2024-06-06 23:21:58 +0000 UTC

This has been my favourite bracket episode by far, the conversation was so considered and it made the final list feel really good. At least as good as it can when certain favs have to be cut (RIP dead cells and hades 🥲)

Mtuck

2024-06-06 23:12:59 +0000 UTC

I have to agree with these comments that Balatro is hard running on recency bias here.

PokéRedstone

2024-06-06 18:25:29 +0000 UTC

This episode made me want to finally get it … until I heard I absolutely need mods to play 😂

Jim Withington

2024-06-06 17:21:42 +0000 UTC

And then they added it to the iPad and I can’t decide if touchscreen is the best or worst way to play it. Oh, the chaos!

Jim Withington

2024-06-06 17:20:15 +0000 UTC

Wowww did Hades get done dirty. I know yall addressed the Balatro recency bias, but I think it’s still there. Here’s another knock against it: it feels like Vampire Survivors to me. Is it industry changing? Yes. Does it get it hooks into me, especially when I can make a build that really feels game breaking? Also yes. But just like VS, when I get done playing Balatro, I find myself wondering, “why did I play this so long?” And I feel kinda icky. So many games on this list don’t do that for me in the same way. Hades especially, but also FTL, Into the Breach, and Dicey Dungeons (usually). I loved the conversation but I feel like the rubric was flawed and made the episode/ arguments possible, but what it really did was make for a weird list that feels off. Maybe next time the bracket has the rubric for the first round but yall talk it out more past that?

Jim Withington

2024-06-06 17:17:29 +0000 UTC

I'm not really fan of roguelikes, but I looooove Hades. So much. I've been thinking about trying Balatro because the Besties recommend it so highly, but now I'm doubtful after this episode. If Hades doesn't really fit in the roguelike "box" neatly and Balatro is a prime example of it, would it really be accessible to someone with my tastes? Like, I've got a pile of JRPGs and more Baldur's Gate 3 playthroughs just ready and waiting for me in my safe space. I don't wanna go busting the Bestie's 100% recommendation success rate over something that might be categorically not my vibe xD

Sierra Powers

2024-06-06 13:25:02 +0000 UTC

Delightfully surprised Hades didn't win. Y'all are full of surprises! ❤️

Shannon Lee

2024-06-06 05:08:21 +0000 UTC

This was a really fun episode! I’m glad we’re getting more bracket episodes. I think it’s where the discussion gets the most lively, and I think you have a format of discussion that really works.

Devin White

2024-06-06 01:38:00 +0000 UTC

You have got to stop drinking water at your audio desk.

Devin White

2024-06-06 01:29:38 +0000 UTC

Oof that decision to cut Hades out of the top 5 broke my heart while listening. That said, I get the logic. For me Hades is the best game on the entire list, but it is not the best roguelike. Also, I love Balatro, but I agree with the recency bias comments here. One of the things that appeals about the genre for me is the near infinite replayability and so many of these are games that I still pick up and play years later. I just don't think we've had enough time to tell if Balatro will have that longevity. Russ is probably right that it will, but still too early to say for sure imo. Anyway, great discussion, best bonus bracket episode yet imo.

Ben

2024-06-05 22:41:27 +0000 UTC

FTL has been, for about 10 years now, the very first game I install on every new computer I get. Even if I don't play it that often now, it's such a perfect "ahh shit the Internet is down" game.

Cam

2024-06-05 21:37:10 +0000 UTC

I never played vanilla ETG, looking back at the changlogs it's wild how much of the stuff I take for granted was added after the fact!

PanGalacticGargleBlasterz

2024-06-05 21:34:41 +0000 UTC

Vanilla Gungeon is a completely different experience than Gungeon post-updates. I hope they return to it bc the new synergy system makes the game much more exciting and helps out with run diversity a ton (not to mention the alternative paths)

Joseph Lupo

2024-06-05 16:00:45 +0000 UTC

Definitely missed opportunity for the tiebreaker to be “which game has Northernlion published more videos of” but otherwise great episode!

Joseph Lupo

2024-06-05 15:59:32 +0000 UTC

You know what else is pretty great about this list? So many of them are inexpensive! I just looked a bunch of them up on Steam, and regular price, they’re mostly $10-20. Edit: Returnal notwithstanding lol

EtherEli

2024-06-05 14:50:00 +0000 UTC

I feel like Hades and Returnal are similar and maybe would have made a good matchup, but Hades would have won, because both incorporate the mechanics of roguelikes within a larger narrative action game and are also beautiful. Returnal is a little too “git gud” in its approach towards players while Hades has way more meta-progression and accessibility that way, but both do rely on genuine player skill and are just plain old fun to play. That’s something I think the Isaac v Hades discussion didn’t give enough weight to - the action of Hades is just more fun, in my opinion.

EtherEli

2024-06-05 14:40:31 +0000 UTC

It’s the headliner for this month’s humble bundle!

EtherEli

2024-06-05 14:35:55 +0000 UTC

Oof I feel like the game of the year push for Balatro (by Justin) muddied the waters a bit in what I think needed to be more of a retrospective episode. It’s a good game but it’s fundamentally a score chaser mixed with poker and has the benefit of shiny modern game design. I’m not sure FTL (2012) and Spelunky (2008), for instance, got enough credit for their formative work in the genre. But maybe I’m just grumpy about how quickly FTL was dropped to the #4 spot below Balatro when I think it has a strong argument for #1 even when using their rubric.

Thomas Walsh

2024-06-05 14:16:30 +0000 UTC

Completely agree, I thought the praise for Balatro was a little extreme given the end product is always just a number multiplier. But I love love love FTL and Into the Breach and think they were disrespected a bit by how the rubric was interpreted

Thomas Walsh

2024-06-05 14:03:37 +0000 UTC

There’s an alternate universe version of this ep discussing Jupiter Hell, Caves of Qud, Haque, and someone mentioned Crypt of the Necrodancer — and that’s before you bring up Shiren and the entire mystery dungeon sub genre (the metaprogression of those directly informing the “standard” use of that in virtually every RL today). Would love to see this bracket revisited someday with a different rubric and a different slate. A different build, if you will!

V Astris

2024-06-05 13:11:41 +0000 UTC

Enter the Gungeon is definitely approachable, it was my intro into bullet hell games and the art style, puns, etc are all great. The title song SLAPS. The besties make a big deal about the difficulty but there are some wild gun/item synergies that get unlocked as you go along that really help. This is the game that taught me the trick to bullet hell games: focus on your character and dodging bullets, don't focus on the enemies, having perfect aim, etc. That being said, I like Into the Breach more but they could not be more different from each other. Frantic action versus contemplative strategy.

PanGalacticGargleBlasterz

2024-06-05 13:07:28 +0000 UTC

This is an interesting ep just to consider how far “roguelike” has drifted as a term. I wouldn’t have picked any of these to even be on the list — but I don’t think the ones I’d bring up are typically Besties games, either. I appreciate the use of the rubric helping to narrow down what these genres mean for the crew, which is the great part of the podcast — lots of personal stories and insights into how/why things click, or don’t.

V Astris

2024-06-05 13:03:53 +0000 UTC

Hades is absolutely my favorite roguelike, but I keep going back to Heroes of Hammerwatch. That is one where it doesn't matter how much time has passed since I last played, I can immediately jump back into it

ThanaThots

2024-06-05 12:41:26 +0000 UTC

I wish someone told me to leave a review in advance because i currently have 13 hundred hours of binding of isaac under the belt

witchcatcher

2024-06-05 10:28:19 +0000 UTC

I’m sure I’m not alone in feeling the major absence of Vampire Survivors from this list, but I do think a Risk of Rain Returns or Risk of Rain 2 session for the Besties would go a long way to understanding the massive value of that game. It really is a triumph.

Craig Kober

2024-06-05 05:53:27 +0000 UTC

You said nothing came before Slay the Spire but do you know about Dream Quest!? It looks like absolute dog shit but trust me it is worth your time and 100% an inspiration for Slay the Spire. It's incredibly deep and ambitious and smart for a game that my kid could have drawn. Actually, this might be one of the most Besties... well, at least Resties games out there. Dream Quest. And +1 for Monster Train

Mims

2024-06-05 05:24:20 +0000 UTC

Confused where Scarlet Maiden is on this list

David Klein

2024-06-05 05:17:11 +0000 UTC

Technical difficulties and didnt want to break the flow of the episode. But the final vote has my support! ~Plante

Chris

2024-06-05 01:56:55 +0000 UTC

And the Miku dlc slaps

Ghintec

2024-06-05 00:44:37 +0000 UTC

Man that’s weird, listened to the whole episode but I must’ve missed the section where they talked about best game of all time Monster Train. Surely Patreon just goofed and there is 10 min part where Justin evangelizes its greatness and decides it’s TOO good to even be in the running?! 🥺

Jerrod Schwarz

2024-06-05 00:44:33 +0000 UTC

we need a slay the spire ascension level reveal from all four besties please this is critical

Andy Brommel

2024-06-04 23:49:17 +0000 UTC

Man, this is one of those episodes that makes me want to go and play some dang games.

Microchasm

2024-06-04 23:23:56 +0000 UTC

Tldr to my above comment. Are some rogue likes more similar to Souls game in that while you are doing runs its more intense with mastering patterns and mastering weapons. Instead of building a supposed perfect game breaking run that makes the numbers go up.

Josh Andrews

2024-06-04 23:16:51 +0000 UTC

Loved the episode the thing I found most intriguing was something Justin said about the feel good feels I'd watching the numbers go up. I thought this interesting because that doesn't do anything for me personally so games like Balatro don't really hit with me. Between the luck and sort of number feel to it just can't get it to stick where games like Hades which I agree with Justin has way more variations than was given credit but because is a skill based some may never see or appreciate because of that sort of skill barrier. Reternal hit the same issue great game that blocks players who can't match skill levels. With all that being said is there room for games like Hades, Reternal, Dead Cells, even Prey Mooncrash for a like Rogue Souls like where your playing to to master boss patterns and build skills and not necessarily watch the numbers go up every run.

Josh Andrews

2024-06-04 23:15:05 +0000 UTC

It's been said a bunch, but y'all definitely should spend a little time on Risk of Rain 2, solo or with friends! It's such an incredible experience. At the very least, give the music soundtrack a listen, the songs are kick ass.

TheZeldaMuse

2024-06-04 23:13:20 +0000 UTC

And how does Gambit figure into this?

Matt Maher

2024-06-04 23:08:44 +0000 UTC

It's like rogue and also like a rogue-lite but not a rogue-lite. a roguelite is like rogue only lite and a rogue-like is like rogue but not rogue. I don't see how that's confusing at all.

Joe Moore

2024-06-04 23:08:00 +0000 UTC

Hades is for sure my favorite roguelike, but I probably go back to FTL and Into the Breach most of all. Even though I haven't won a run of FTL in years, even on the easy difficulty! Into The Breach is on my phone so super easy to jump into all the time. But man you just can't beat Hades actually having a phenomenal story, while most roguelikes don't even HAVE a story.

Clay

2024-06-04 23:01:12 +0000 UTC

My favorite not on the list is Crypt of the Necrodancer! I love both the roguelike and the rythmn aspects. Balatro and Hades also favorites though!

Samantha Butcher

2024-06-04 22:44:40 +0000 UTC

Did Chris rage quit at the end? He disappeared for the final votes.

David Molnar

2024-06-04 22:09:30 +0000 UTC

Noita is the rogue-like that I return to the most. You all should really give it a deep dive. This game has Animal Well levels of depth, more so probably. It is truly incredible how off the deep end it can go, you have no idea where you will end up when you start a run, truly endless playability. Based on your rubric of more run diversity it is second to none, really, nothing even comes close. And the rubric of how much time played by the most helpful review over 100 hours on steam: 1133.5 hours for the top review! Do yourselves a favor and give it an honest playthrough. BTW, no mention of Risk of Rain Returns which came out earlier this year and is more or less a remake of the original. Its pretty great too! My Top 5: 1. Noita 2. Risk of Rain Returns 3. Outer Wilds (Is that a not rogue like?) 4. The Binding of Isaac 5. Spelunky)

Dustin Siegel

2024-06-04 21:28:00 +0000 UTC

I've been listening to Besties for a while now...and I still don't really understand what a roguelike is...

Matt Maher

2024-06-04 20:55:26 +0000 UTC

Pleasantly surprised by the very reasonable amount of time spent talking about Binding of Isaac and Spelunky, two games I absolutely could not stand playing. I completely agree with Chris about the aesthetic of Binding of Isaac and Spelunky makes me think both people who recommend it and the developer hate me and want me to suffer.

Jonathon Thorndycraft

2024-06-04 20:43:00 +0000 UTC

I think Justin makes a great point at the end about these brackets helping to boil down the essential qualities of a certain type of game or aspect of a game. Hades is… probably…? my favorite game out of the full list, but I wholeheartedly agree with it not making the top five because what makes it great isn’t necessarily what makes it a roguelike. And my second favorite game would be Into the Breach, which I think hits the same wall. I’d like to see it in another bracket at some point, like “non-traditional puzzles” tho idk if you could really build a bracket on that.

Andrew P

2024-06-04 20:33:52 +0000 UTC

On the topic of hours in rougelikes I wanted to say I just picked up Binding of Isaac last July and currently have 801 hours 🫠

setgendertono

2024-06-04 19:56:03 +0000 UTC

THANK YOU FOR THIS

MG

2024-06-04 19:26:26 +0000 UTC

With all due respect to y’all’s valid opinions, Hades getting that shafted because being TOO accessible counts against it is completely wild to me and thus I think roguelite deserves its own episode down the road 😂

William (Biggggg5) Mason

2024-06-04 18:59:21 +0000 UTC

Love that soundtrack!

MechRepairGuy

2024-06-04 18:45:33 +0000 UTC

Into the Breach and FTL I return to the most due to ease of access. If you have a Netflix account you can play Into the Breach for free. Just saw they have Hades available now as well! Can be a handy way to play some games without bringing another electronic device with you!

MechRepairGuy

2024-06-04 18:44:36 +0000 UTC

Risk of rain 2 and slay the spire are the 2 I always go back to. StS I usually play mobile and ror2 I usually play with my spouse and we go back to it anytime we're bored of other games. It's awesome and y'all need to give it a shot!

Sansibelle

2024-06-04 18:33:56 +0000 UTC

I hadn't heard of this but it sounds fascinating, I'll definitely check it out!

BucklingSwashes

2024-06-04 18:26:09 +0000 UTC

Is solitaire a rouge like? I'm going to say yes, and that's my favorite rouge like

Joe Moore

2024-06-04 17:13:40 +0000 UTC

Omg and Magic Survival of course! Got too focused on deckbuilders lol Also Android only but it was part of the inspiration for Vampire Survivors so I always have to shout it out!

Jackie aka Jax

2024-06-04 16:53:01 +0000 UTC

Slay the Spire and Balatro are ones I def come back to a lot. Also Breach Wanderers, which is a roguelike deckbuilder similar to Slay the Spire except you build your deck and pool for each character. Also Rogue Adventure but that's Android only

Jackie aka Jax

2024-06-04 16:52:00 +0000 UTC

From Plante: I've tried a few times and it never quite clicked. But I've been meaning to revisit it again!

Chris

2024-06-04 16:41:11 +0000 UTC

You rock, thank you.

Johnny Van Cura

2024-06-04 16:24:53 +0000 UTC

They were going to but Justin abruptly brought up bringing back Spelunky to put it at 5.

ThanaThots

2024-06-04 16:08:03 +0000 UTC

Vampire Survivors is something I come back to every few months ever since it came out! I own it on Steam, Xbox & Switch! 😅 Also, the FTL soundtrack is in constant rotation. Great for when you just need to bang out some paperwork or do something productive.

Glen Greer

2024-06-04 15:54:56 +0000 UTC

Petition for the Besties to 4 Player Co-Op some Risk of Rain 2. Also Justin will love Loader. I guarantee it.

Ryan Morton

2024-06-04 15:41:07 +0000 UTC

Did I zone out or did they forget to discuss bringing back Hades for a top 5 spot at the end? Balatro & Hades are the two that I'm most passionate about.

Johnny Van Cura

2024-06-04 15:35:39 +0000 UTC

Risk of Rain 2 is one y'all have to play. There is a new DLC coming and there is an insane mod community. I understand y'all don't have experience with it, but it deserves so much more

Walter Blakey

2024-06-04 15:17:13 +0000 UTC

Oh man, I feel like I could write an entire essay going over this episode! I wanted to comment most about the rubric of build variety. Everyone seemed in agreement that balatro had the most variety by far, but no one really ever brought up the impact of those builds. Balatros amazing, but the build variety is literally different variations of multipliers. It’s fun and addicting but it all comes down to stacking different types of multipliers on different types of cards. Games like Slay the Spire and Hades may have fewer build variations but their characters and weapon variety makes the runs massively different, which is more important in my opinion.

ThanaThots

2024-06-04 15:11:27 +0000 UTC

I think this all comes down to the rubric honestly. Hades has so much going for it in every facet of the game that make it shine, but the rubric and Besties were focused more on pure roguelike gameplay. All that being said I still say Hades beats Binding of Issac. If your game needs a mod that fundamental changes its entire playstyle then it shouldn’t beat a game as good as Hades! And I’ve put a lot of time into unmodded Binding of Isaac on console.

ThanaThots

2024-06-04 15:02:42 +0000 UTC

They did our boy Hades dirty. Damn rubric!

ThanaThots

2024-06-04 14:53:35 +0000 UTC

Risk of Rain 2 is the one I find myself going back to most often

Julian Pinzer

2024-06-04 14:52:11 +0000 UTC

Bummer that Everspace didn't even make a consideration list. I prefer it to FTL but I'm a sucker for flying a ship around.

Orb_Is_Horse

2024-06-04 14:34:32 +0000 UTC

Dammit

Yuusic

2024-06-04 14:18:23 +0000 UTC

My favorites not on this list are Curse of the Dead Gods and Across the Obelisk. This is a great list though!

Mark

2024-06-04 13:56:40 +0000 UTC

I'm listening while working and during the hades vs. binding of Isaac round I got into a work flow and my brain kinda just static-ed out and then I came to again several minutes later and y'all were still talking about hades vs. binding lol

Kat

2024-06-04 13:53:33 +0000 UTC

I know that slay the spire probably wins, but in my heart of hearts I like to think enter the gungeon has a chance

Ethan Holland

2024-06-04 13:30:25 +0000 UTC

Whooo another hilarious and super fun bracket episode, thanks y'all <3 Not in the slightest a contender on this list but want to share for folks Doom Infinite (https://www.moddb.com/mods/doom-infinite), a super super early in its potential mod that already does wild, amazing things for old folks like me who still bring out Doom every now and again. It rips apart levels as you're playing through, has a huge depth of abilities and fun weapon changes, a whole ton of secrets and modifications to the core level progression and such a wild effort but these few folks working on it

Ian Grossberg

2024-06-04 12:30:46 +0000 UTC

Can I give a big shoutout to Flamebreak. A really missed gem of a top down roguelike. It's a blast. The synergy in the abilities are fun and just feels good to play.

Luke 'Punquillity' Elias

2024-06-04 12:29:31 +0000 UTC

I'm so excited for this episode. I have so many feelings for all of these games. Here's hoping for a Hades win

Yuusic

2024-06-04 12:28:50 +0000 UTC

That is one hell of a list, for sure. Personally, Dead Cells is my go-to. It's only gotten better over the years, and the combat and movement just feel right to me. I've put hundreds of hours into it, and still have boss cells to unlock. I love a lot of these games, and some of them are better than Dead Cells in one way or another. But Dead Cells is the one I'm going to come back to first every time.

Adam Lindeman

2024-06-04 12:23:21 +0000 UTC

Aw yeah the soundtrack slaps. The sequel really took off for me when I played it with friends and it's my go to game for co-op now.

Ian Mortensen

2024-06-04 09:33:07 +0000 UTC

This might as well be the list of the greatest games of the past decade or so. What a list!

Kormakur Gardarsson

2024-06-04 09:08:07 +0000 UTC

Risk of Rain and its sequel still haven't clicked for me but I'm gonna keep on trying cuz of that ballin soundtrack! ...con lentitud poderosa is a favorite track of mine

Ian Hickey

2024-06-04 08:47:29 +0000 UTC

I get so excited to hear people talk about FTL. I can't believe it never got ported to Switch or anything.

Jesse Dilgarde

2024-06-04 08:27:35 +0000 UTC

Excited to listen, but I am continually surprised by the lack of love Risk of Rain seems to get on the cast! I've heard it mentioned once by Russ I think - is it just not a game you guys gel with?

Ian Mortensen

2024-06-04 08:15:00 +0000 UTC

Holy crap this is going to be good

Overcooked cucumber

2024-06-04 07:51:56 +0000 UTC

So excited for this one!

Mathilde Ronan

2024-06-04 07:47:08 +0000 UTC

We're eating good tonight! I'm excited to hear this one!

sven sven

2024-06-04 07:17:55 +0000 UTC

I think it's fair to argue that it's not the best roguelike overall, but the way that Hades incorporates storytelling and character interactions so perfectly into its roguelike format still makes it feel vastly more rewarding than any other I've played. Unraveling the mystery of what happened to my family, hearing a rare and incredibly circumstantial line of dialogue, catching that unexpected interaction between two other characters, or having my dad taunt me about my choice in weaponry really helps to make every run feel significant in a way that extends beyond the mechanics. That it's all so brilliantly acted as well makes it even better.

BucklingSwashes

2024-06-04 07:14:57 +0000 UTC

Oooohh.. my favourite genre

Nicky Bodsworth

2024-06-04 07:14:35 +0000 UTC

I love the Besties! Thanks for keeping my ears on crack!

Bryan Gillespie

2024-06-04 07:13:15 +0000 UTC

Not to be That person, but most games on the list are rougelites ;)

Gundeman

2024-06-04 07:08:10 +0000 UTC

Literally playing Hades for the first time on Besties' recommendation right now on my Steam Deck that I may or may not have bought after binging episodes at work (don't worry the purchase has very much been worthwhile) - so excited to listen!

Ian Hickey

2024-06-04 07:07:12 +0000 UTC

This one's gonna be an all timer

Chungo B. Cool

2024-06-04 07:06:46 +0000 UTC

INSANE. I couldn't do it. There's like multiple top 20 games on my all-time list here.

AaronElWhite

2024-06-04 07:05:00 +0000 UTC

LETS GO!

Dalton Keibler

2024-06-04 07:03:39 +0000 UTC

The Besties Battle Bracket: roguelikes

The contenders:

Questions for our listeners!

Comments

This was a fun one! I feel like Darkest Dungeon should have been involved in the brackets. Really nothing else quite like it

When I first started listening years ago I dug around looking for a Streets of Rogue Episode. Would love to watch these four play it.

Not quite caught up on the patreon episodes… but I’ve been current on the regular feed for a couple years now… and the boys have never once addressed one of the best Roguelike games ever. Streets of Rogue.

While I don't disagree that Balatro is the better game compared to Dicey Dungeons, you abandoned the rubric! This matchup should have gone to the tiebreaker, and Dicey Dungeons blows Balatro out of the water with hours played on a review.

Inscription is a whole beast unto itself imho, but now that you mention it it's utterly bizarre that Vampire Survivors wasn't included

don't get me wrong, BoI was the first game I ever bought. I love it. But I think EtG does what BoI does better and with more panache, and I think neither of them are as good as Hades

I can’t explain it but I have developed so much affection for FTL over the years that it is my #1 cozy game lol

I felt the same way re: Chris and BoI. Good to see I (or we) we're not alone in that. I never intended to be disrespectful to another person's art, but sometimes the aesthetic or theming of an experience can just be a total blocker.

I would love a publishers bracket battle—if you had to take a studios sum total work and those were the only games you got to play for the rest of forever, who ya got??

Pitting Hades vs Binding of Isaac is NASTY work

I love these because I get so mad (playfully) and I want to be in the conversation more than any other version of the pod

Haven't played into the breach, but Slay the Spire if you like a deck-builder (obviously not a twitch-reaction game)

Spoiler!! I would've bet a significant amount of money that the guys' would put Spelunky at #1 given the amount of times it is referenced in the main feed, love this result.

This was a great episode! I really hope you guys do a Best Search Action Game episode in the future!

If Griffin is hopping into Noita, he should check out FuryForged's best minimal wand slot builds videos on youtube. Noita really is so hard to get into that having a few easy to use and strong options can help you get into the fun part of the game a lot faster. https://youtu.be/00Pm9uNs6wU

Me, having bounced off Balatro, but having logged a hundred hours in Dicey Dungeons: 👁️👄👁️

I'm at about 700 hours on it after a few months longer. Nowhere near that many hours for any other game

Should have finished the episode

I’ve listened to you guys talk about BOI for years, I’ve finally given it the chance and as someone who doesn’t really like rogue likes it’s pretty fun! Also you guys should try Streets Of Rogue, another fun roguelike that seems to be slept on

Maybe someone has mentioned it here, but Edmund McMillen intends to integrate the item description mod into an upcoming update of the game

….help

This episode finally got me to try Balatro and now 20 hours later in less than a week, you guys are right it's up there with the very best.

Returnal on the list but not Vampire Survivors or Inscryption is... fascinating

If you're not getting through all 8 antes in balatro at least 50% of the time you're likely misunderstanding the rules on a fundamental level

This is my favorite episode yet! I wish you guys did “Let’s Play” for all the games you talked about, especially “Into the Breach”

yeah for sure!

But i totally understand the feeling. It's one of those intangible balances that separates video games that feel valuable from video games that feel like a waste of life minutes

That's interesting, personally I find that balatro feels a lot better than vampire survivors because I'm more mentally involved when I'm playing

I love into the breach and balatro. I need a sub list of roguelikes that don't involve being good at action games

Man, I really don't like rogue likes. Lol. I think my vote would be Hades, but even that one is too easy for me to imagine as a tight 8-12 hour dungeon crawler or action RPG that I would have enjoyed much more.

The best way to get a better feel for Risk of Rain 2 is to play Risk of Rain Returns. I don't know that RoR2 would have clicked for me had I not played the first one and Risk of Rain Returns did a phenomenal job of polishing the first game back into a enjoyable current day experience.

Now is such a good time to play Risk of Rain 2 with the DLC coming out soon! Would be a great option for a lull in releases

"literally and figuratively" I might be listening to too many McElroy shows, but that must have been a reference to the latest MBMBAM, right?

Anyone nostalgic for Nuclear Throne/Enter the Gungeon should try Voidigo. It’s another twin stick shooter roguelite that does a really good job of capturing the fun kinda tactile feel of nuclear throne, and it’s a lot more approachable than Gungeon

Just listened and heard there's been a disclaimer about RoR. Glad it got an honourable mention :)

Made the mistake of starting this episode mid-work day while I was walking back from an appointment because I instantly wanted to be playing balatro instead of going back to work

Great episode! Y'all should check out "Nightmare Kart", it's a new indie racing game based on Bloodborne/Fromsoft games, but with a PS1 era aesthetic. Super small team, and free to download!! I'd love to hear what y'all think <3

This has been my favourite bracket episode by far, the conversation was so considered and it made the final list feel really good. At least as good as it can when certain favs have to be cut (RIP dead cells and hades 🥲)

I have to agree with these comments that Balatro is hard running on recency bias here.

This episode made me want to finally get it … until I heard I absolutely need mods to play 😂

And then they added it to the iPad and I can’t decide if touchscreen is the best or worst way to play it. Oh, the chaos!

Delightfully surprised Hades didn't win. Y'all are full of surprises! ❤️

This was a really fun episode! I’m glad we’re getting more bracket episodes. I think it’s where the discussion gets the most lively, and I think you have a format of discussion that really works.

You have got to stop drinking water at your audio desk.

FTL has been, for about 10 years now, the very first game I install on every new computer I get. Even if I don't play it that often now, it's such a perfect "ahh shit the Internet is down" game.

I never played vanilla ETG, looking back at the changlogs it's wild how much of the stuff I take for granted was added after the fact!

Vanilla Gungeon is a completely different experience than Gungeon post-updates. I hope they return to it bc the new synergy system makes the game much more exciting and helps out with run diversity a ton (not to mention the alternative paths)

Definitely missed opportunity for the tiebreaker to be “which game has Northernlion published more videos of” but otherwise great episode!

You know what else is pretty great about this list? So many of them are inexpensive! I just looked a bunch of them up on Steam, and regular price, they’re mostly $10-20. Edit: Returnal notwithstanding lol

It’s the headliner for this month’s humble bundle!

Completely agree, I thought the praise for Balatro was a little extreme given the end product is always just a number multiplier. But I love love love FTL and Into the Breach and think they were disrespected a bit by how the rubric was interpreted

Hades is absolutely my favorite roguelike, but I keep going back to Heroes of Hammerwatch. That is one where it doesn't matter how much time has passed since I last played, I can immediately jump back into it

I wish someone told me to leave a review in advance because i currently have 13 hundred hours of binding of isaac under the belt

I’m sure I’m not alone in feeling the major absence of Vampire Survivors from this list, but I do think a Risk of Rain Returns or Risk of Rain 2 session for the Besties would go a long way to understanding the massive value of that game. It really is a triumph.

Confused where Scarlet Maiden is on this list

Technical difficulties and didnt want to break the flow of the episode. But the final vote has my support! ~Plante

And the Miku dlc slaps

Man that’s weird, listened to the whole episode but I must’ve missed the section where they talked about best game of all time Monster Train. Surely Patreon just goofed and there is 10 min part where Justin evangelizes its greatness and decides it’s TOO good to even be in the running?! 🥺

we need a slay the spire ascension level reveal from all four besties please this is critical

Man, this is one of those episodes that makes me want to go and play some dang games.

Tldr to my above comment. Are some rogue likes more similar to Souls game in that while you are doing runs its more intense with mastering patterns and mastering weapons. Instead of building a supposed perfect game breaking run that makes the numbers go up.

It's been said a bunch, but y'all definitely should spend a little time on Risk of Rain 2, solo or with friends! It's such an incredible experience. At the very least, give the music soundtrack a listen, the songs are kick ass.

And how does Gambit figure into this?

It's like rogue and also like a rogue-lite but not a rogue-lite. a roguelite is like rogue only lite and a rogue-like is like rogue but not rogue. I don't see how that's confusing at all.

My favorite not on the list is Crypt of the Necrodancer! I love both the roguelike and the rythmn aspects. Balatro and Hades also favorites though!

Did Chris rage quit at the end? He disappeared for the final votes.

I've been listening to Besties for a while now...and I still don't really understand what a roguelike is...

On the topic of hours in rougelikes I wanted to say I just picked up Binding of Isaac last July and currently have 801 hours 🫠

THANK YOU FOR THIS

With all due respect to y’all’s valid opinions, Hades getting that shafted because being TOO accessible counts against it is completely wild to me and thus I think roguelite deserves its own episode down the road 😂

Love that soundtrack!

Into the Breach and FTL I return to the most due to ease of access. If you have a Netflix account you can play Into the Breach for free. Just saw they have Hades available now as well! Can be a handy way to play some games without bringing another electronic device with you!

Risk of rain 2 and slay the spire are the 2 I always go back to. StS I usually play mobile and ror2 I usually play with my spouse and we go back to it anytime we're bored of other games. It's awesome and y'all need to give it a shot!

I hadn't heard of this but it sounds fascinating, I'll definitely check it out!

Is solitaire a rouge like? I'm going to say yes, and that's my favorite rouge like

Omg and Magic Survival of course! Got too focused on deckbuilders lol Also Android only but it was part of the inspiration for Vampire Survivors so I always have to shout it out!