The Besties Battle Bracket: the best second game

I think Sonic 2 is honestly the greatest video game sequel of all time.

Steven JC Badgraphics

Man, I remember LOVING ME 1, and being kind of disappointed in some of the changes that were made to streamline the game for ME 2. I just wound up feeling like the systems in each ME game lost depth as they went on. But then, I also hated DA:I because the default setup just felt like playing an MMO and not the kind of RPG I expected.

specwill

Did Chris Plant forget about Sonic 2 for Genesis or was he just being polite? Sonic 1 establishes the character and mode of play, Sonic 2 actually feels great and improves on everything. The level designs are fun and often replayable, the bosses are whacky and cool, and it has distinctive look to the sprites. Also, Super Sonic.

Bishibosh44

My only gripe with this list is that Uncharted 2 probably should replace Arkham City. Having played the series in the Nathan Drake collection, Uncharted 2 *feels* so much better to play than 1. Whereas the Arkham games have different gameplay styles, but they're both great games

Elijah Hughes

Loved this episode! My only gripe is that Griffin as the resident Pokémon fan failed to bring up either Crystal Version or Emerald Version in this discussion. I’m gonna get in the weeds a bit here, but please know this is just what I would say were I there and not at all me saying this discussion was poor or unentertaining. I don’t think this would’ve changed the outcome all that much, but dismissing Ruby and Sapphire as smaller, more iterative games while ignoring Emerald’s much larger additions to the formula is a little saddening. As for Crystal, it is a better game than Gold or Silver and I feel must also be considered in this conversation. If you want to consider it a separate game, then I would posit this logic leads to Pokémon Blue (Japan) or Pokémon Yellow being the the true “second game” in the franchise. To put a finer point on it: if each generation of Pokémon games is being considered as a whole here, then the whole generation should’ve been considered in the discussion. Instead of GS and RS it should’ve been GSC and RSE.

PokéRedstone

Liked this one a lot!

Kári Kárason

Not a popular game, by any means, but the Timesplitters duology on PS2 was ungodly for its time. TS2 is one of the few titles I still maintain a PS2 setup for.

Murlocs79

Just gotta say, for those of you like me with an Android that Loop Hero hit the Google Play store. Very natural fit. Looking forward to delving into that one again on a mobile device. I also see that Skul is headed there soon as well.

Sterling Haws

I just want to say that WOW, Hades II is already incredible and it's wild to think that it's only in early access. It's HUGE.

BucklingSwashes

God damn, not me getting jump scared by Justin talking about Soul Reaver in the newest episode

X_Blade_Mage

I spent my early teenage years obsessed with Civ 2 Gold. I’m eternally depressed that it’s impossible to play without dropping your entire bank account on ebay or risking your pc through pirating

Ryan Giglio

Ding dinga linga ding… We gotta send Chris to some improv classes.

Luke

Thank you Justin for defense of Halo 3 I cannot believe the slander it’s receiving

Jonathan Shea

Hades 1 was also my bet to take best romanceable character so I can't wait to see what H2 has in store on that front

David Miller

Halo 3 being a bad game is a wild hill that Plante and Russ have decided to die on. This has come up a few time sin the last few years.

David Molnar

I mean, I don't think anyone would say OG chain of memories would be here. And that was the second game

X_Blade_Mage

I knew it wasn't going to be here, but still bummed that The Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, didn't show up

X_Blade_Mage

Not a single kingdom hearts 2…interesting…

Mary Harvey

Huge improvement from the last one, guys. Felt more cohesive while still being loose

IHaveARussFrushtickBodyPillow

Bracket idea: best patrons

Garfunkel Horseman

I hit a wall with ME 1 remastered and I feel like Justin has given me the permission to skip it and go straight to ME 2

Travis

Here to rep Mass Effect 1 fandom. I never finished ME3 (which shows how much that one lost my interest), but Mass Effect 1 was surprisingly enjoyable. I’ll admit that the gunplay is more exciting in 2, but Mass Effect 1 has the most iconic bad guy. (I also know it’s a hot take but I like the ending in 1 better. The human reaver is incredibly lame, and the survival stuff feels more like a gimmick because there’s no way anyone had Garrus die and be like, “Okay, now I’ll play 3”)

Devin White

The pedantic in me has to point out that Far Cry 2 should not have been eligible for this list. That’s because the second Far Cry game was Far Cry Instincts released for consoles. And if you’re going to consider the GBA Mario Kart game a sequel to 64, I think it’s only fair to say that Instincts was a sequel to the first Far Cry.

Devin White

Shoutout to Dishonored 2

Theresa Karasek

For an iconic 2 that eclipses its 1, I’d nominate Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver. Who cares about Blood Omen? Only weirdos. 3 3s: uh… I’m partial to Wipeout 3, though most would probably consider XL/2097 the more iconic one; does Metal Slug X count as the third?; Super Ghouls ‘n Ghosts.

Shart Carbuncle

Woah I didn't think of that. That's a massive one!

Sebbo Mode

Ah! You're right! The well of Assassin's Creed is so deep that it gets murky that far back. Brotherhood was definitely one of my favorites. I always liked playing as the barber in multiplayer.

MechRepairGuy

For my top 3 third games, I think I have to go with Halo 3 at number 1, Mass Effect 3 at number 2, and Total War: Warhammer 3 at number 3. Halo 3 was such an amazing time for me, I played it with family, played it with friends, played it with total strangers! It felt like the biggest game in the world for a time there. Mass Effect 3 is also my fave in the trilogy, I even liked the ending when I first played and liked the extended cut even more. And Total Warhammer 3 is pretty much the culmination of the Warhammer series, with Immortal Empires being the perfect way to play that game.

Clay

I LOVED the Assassin's Creed multiplayer, although correct me if I'm wrong I believe it first was in Brotherhood, not 2? Either way both my sister and I loved it so much. I played as the harlequin guy the most.

Clay

I was surprised that Super Smash Brothers Melee on Gamecube was not a part of this bracket! It greatly improved basically everything from the N64 version and still has a large following in the competitive scene.

InstantFrench

I'd love a best Live service bracket lead by Griffin! Also a MMORPG episode or retrospective by you guys would be fun. With wow, ffxiv and destiny 2 all sort of at the end of their expected lifespan and now charting new courses, a look back would be interesting. Thanks for all you guys do, and stay safe this storm season!

stormandozone

Gotta shout out Suikoden II here

emjaybee_3

Yeah I'm well surprised how much they ripped on mass effect 1. I freaking love that game. I think going back 2 and 3 maybe play more smoothly, but in 1 (and with alpha protocol) bioware are still experimenting with the balance of action-rpgs, I think the world building is fantastic and hanging out talking to aliens is a lot of fun. If anything I prefer it to it's sequels in many ways. They are nuts for overlooking this gem.

Grant Cameron

I like the brackets

billfromamerica

I think managing to exceed expectations when the original is highly lauded as one of the best in its genre is a pretty good hallmark for one of the best sequels ever, that’s just me tho. SF1 being pretty ubiquitously considered a bad 1st entry makes SF2 look really good in comparison

Zee Rocks

I gotta give some love to Sly 2, one of the games I played the most as a kid (along with Sly 3). It was a massive improvement over the original Sly Cooper for me, since I was able to wander around the levels as much as I wanted after finishing the actual missions

Lou Sheridan

It was bizarre to hear them talk like everyone agrees Mass Effect 1 is bad. A truly wild take.

Nevskii

Like others here have said, I think y’all would be surprised by how many people absolutely love Mass Effect 1. It was surreal to hear all four of you talking as though there is a consensus that it’s bad. To be sure, I think that Mass Effect 2 is an immense improvement on the first game, and deserves its place in the final ranking. But Mass Effect 1 is a superb RPG, especially in context as a game from 2007 but also today in the context of Legendary Edition.

Nevskii

Well Hades 1 was a masterpiece already so it couldn’t beat sequels that had such a huge improvement over their originals like Street Fighter 2.

ThanaThots

As someone who loves the original Assassins Creed, I can relate

Chris

Is it crazy to say hades 2 might clear this entire bracket?

Zee Rocks

Devil May Cry 3 Super Metroid LttP Honorable mention for Bubsy 3D, which I think of as iconic in its awfulness. Not quite Superman 64 levels of bad, but still.

Adam Lindeman

Morrowind Witcher 3 My last spot would go to either Dark Souls 3 or Mario Galaxy depending on if either of those count as 3rd games Also I wonder if they considered Paper Mario: TTYD for this bracket.

Sebbo Mode

Honorable mentions to Sid Meier's Civilization 2 (you are legally required to include his name when discussing the franchise) and Diablo 2, but I get why they didn't make the list. For 3rd entries, GTA 3 and Fallout 3 stand out, but the winner by the Besties rubric would have to be Zelda: A Link to the Past. "I'm not arguing a point, I'm speaking truth... it's up to you all to divine what you will from it". Just some prime cut Justin McElroy, great stuff everyone.

16-Xray

I'm SO baffled at the ME discussion because I really love Mass Effect 1 :(. I find ME2 better only slightly better

Andrew van Baarsen

We gonna talk about how good Griffin’s Master Chief was?

Landon Pate

good catch!

Chris

whether or not it should be included was heavily debated before recording! unfortunately, it's a number two but not really a second entry? what a weird, wonderful miracle that game is!

Chris

Pretty sure the moment from ME2 that Justin referenced (Thane dying?) - is actually from ME3 I love 1 and 3 btw, despite the gameplays issues of the original and missteps in the finale of 3

Chane Larkin

As someone else mentioned, AoE2 is an all time classic sequel. By far the best in the series and to this day extremely active and alive with updates and a competitive scene. Would like to also mention Star Fox 64, I think a much bigger improvement compared to Super Mario Kart -> Mario Kart 64. I am biased and prefer Super Mario Kart to Mario Kart 64, so maybe I am way off. But Start Fox on SNES is pretty much unplayable, and Star Fox 64 is one of my favorite zone out games of all time. Sonic 2 is another classic sequel. People really love Sonic 3 and Knuckles, but Sonic 2 is my favorite in terms of music and environments. It is such a huge leap up from the first Sonic game in terms of over feel of just going fast through levels. The additions of Tails, spin dashing, and the even the half pipe bonus levels are really peak Sonic to me.

Evan Grossman

The unhinged cold opens are worth the price of admission. Keep bullying these nerds juice.

Andrew Birmingham

It's for real the best of the original run, and the only thing it's lacking over 2 is the costumes.

Adrian Kenyon

Top three third games of all time that AREN'T Super Metroid, Super Mario Bros 3, and Link to the Past, which is just unfair: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Dark Souls III Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story Honorable mentions to Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (& Knuckles) since you kinda need that second half to make a full game, and Pikmin 3, since it's blown out of the water by Pikmin 4.

Kyle Van Son

I agree with the Besties on this one. I recently played through the trilogy for the first time, and ME1 was an absolute drag. It's no fun at all ha ha.

Stephen J. Lunatic

I'm surprised we didn't have KH2 on here. On the other hand, this made me want to go back and play the Arkham games skipping orgins.

AWildBrozerker

WarCraft III, Gears of War 3, [EDIT: Breath of Fire III].

Ellis Smith

Ya. He hits definitely when you’re older/looking at it with 2024 glasses. If you steer him away, he has some pretty solid realizations in 2 and 3. It was interesting playing the series again earlier this year post 2020

Jeffrey Williams

I may be in the minority here, but I loved the multiplayer in Assassin's Creed II. I thought it was such a fun game of cat and mouse, and a completely different multiplayer experience compared to anything else at the time. Running around corners and blending in with different skills to confuse your pursuer at the last second was super fun. Plus, the bitch slap you got to dole out when they screwed up brought me joy.

MechRepairGuy

MP3 was also mine real recognize real

David Miller

This is from a different celebrity, but unless you’ve heard otherwise, I assume it applies in all cases: the preferred interaction is Ships in the Night. In other words, acknowledge in passing: “hey, Name, big fan” and keep walking. The key is to not ask anything of them, unless maybe you gauge it’s an appropriate enough time for like a photo or something, but keep in mind that’s probably never the case. Just passing by and saying hey will always be okay.

EtherEli

Would Majora's Mask count? I've always preferred it over Ocarina of Time.

sven sven

Wouldn't mgs3 technically be the fifth game in the series because of metal gear 1 & 2?

Joe Moore

The jump from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2 truly was massive. I forced myself to play Mass Effect 1, and those driving sessions nearly drove me bonkers.

sven sven

Yeah Mass Effect was a great rpg and Mass Effect 2 oversimplified a lot of the systems I enjoyed. I always played a biotic class and paused combat so often that it felt more like a tactical RPG than a shooter though.

Casey Hyde

I know video games aren't just Pac-man anymore but leaving out Ms. Pac-man is an oversight imo. It's a perfect game and the only Pac-man game worth playing.

Casey Hyde

Tommy F.

Ha oops clearly it’s been a minute. I still liked him overall anyway, I just realized I had rose colored glasses on :p

Ccchloister

Garus? He’s got some bad tendencies in one, and that is all true. He’s a renegade in the games structure. Shepard has a way the ability to help shape him throughout the 3 games though. He and Shepard can really fuel each others impsulses though if you go down the renegade path.

Jeffrey Williams

I had a moment with Garith where I realized if he wasn’t a weird hot bird alien I’d have noticed sooner he’s a “cop who doesn’t play by the rules” trope, which I don’t find very appealing.

Ccchloister

I know it’s not the besties’ specific jam but this did get me thinking about an RTS showdown of StarCraft 2 vs Age of Empires 2…

Andy Brommel

I'm gonna say it -- DARK SOULS II!!!

Casey Francis Alger

It's really hard to go back to, honestly. 2024 eyes makes you realize it's a conservative libertarian power fantasy war crime simulator lol.

Casey Francis Alger

Griffin “Mass Effect 1 was a bad game” Them some fighting words.

Jeffrey Williams

Morrowind Super Metroid A Link to The Past Mario Party 3 as a bonus

Adrian Kenyon

1. Assassin’s Creed III - I was on Chapter 9 when the game menu glitched out, navigated to the profile selection screen and somehow deleted my save. Even it knew how boring it was and took the initiative to stop me from playing. I give a lot of kudos to that game for taking initiative and caring for the player. 2. Monster Hunter Tri/3 Ultimate - while it’s by no means perfect, I think exploring verticality through swimming was a step in the right direction that set the stage for 4 to shine with it’s improved navigation. Plus it introduced switchaxe, awesome monsters (brachydios, ceadeus, etc), and made it more accessible to play in the US by bringing the franchise to Nintendo for a bit 3. Fallout 3 - such a formative moment for me as far as learning about the importance of aesthetics and environmental storytelling in games

Elklodge

Let me deliberately stretch the prompt a little: 3. Inscryption. It's Daniel Mullins' third commercial game, and they all take place in a shared universe. The upward trajectory of the three is wild in my opinion, it's like the first three Radiohead albums manifesting as indie games. 2. Immortality. Sam Barlow's third FMV game. The first two were mixed successes imo (yes, even Her Story). But the FMV mechanics work perfectly this time around because the story is set in Hollywood, where the big question is whether you're being successfully manipulated by what you see on screen. 1. Tales from Off-Peak City, Vol. 1. Technically Cosmo D's FOURTH game, and the first in a proposed series of its own. But it makes the most sense as a sequel to Off-Peak and the Norwood Suite. Norwood is arguably a richer explorable environment, but Tales Vol. 1 is MUCH prettier. An absolute classic for walking sim sickos.

Matthew Parsons

no

rbar

Not necessarily a beefy series as far as actual gameplay goes, but I'd throw my hat in for Mario Party 3. I'm sure everyone's familiar w/ the dynamics of MP series but MP3 was the last one that had that gritty N64 feel. Great minigames, a little bit of extra unlockable "story mode" stuff. Not that it perfected the series by any means, but as far as nostalgia factor, this one hits more than the original 2.

David Miller

3. SoulCalibur II, as the sequel to Soul Calibur, itself the sequel to Soul Edge, is just a true delight of the GameCube/PS2 Era. 2. Ace Attorney: Trials and Tribulations may not look much different from the previous two, it may not play much different from the previous two, but from a narrative perspective could not be more important. It provides a deeply satisfying climax and conclusion to a story that you didn't even realize the series has been telling this whole time. Death is not the end of friendship. Death is not the end of love. Death is not the end of evil. Death is not the end of justice. 1. Persona 2: Eternal Punishment is the third Persona game after Persona and Persona 2: Innocent Sin. Much like AA3, P2EP ties together and concludes a story only hinted at by its predecessors. It is bigger, deeper, and more haunting than its previous games. The mechanics are more interesting. There's so much more to do. And the cast of characters, made entirely of returning party members and npcs from previous games, provides a uniquely adult perspective on the series' overarching theme of carving out a place in a world where you don't quite belong. It also did the impossible: it made me actually appreciate Persona 1.

Pooshie

What are we looking for in terms of "best" here? Most imaginative? Most logical? Most varied? Most fun to play/ upgrade/ manage?

Luke

What a magical idea

Travis

the omission of my favorite game, 2004’s spider man 2, doesn’t phase me; this bracket is stacked. Excited to listen!

David Klein

Wasteland 3 is the second best Fallout game behind New Vegas.

cameron Swingle

Also I think I’m playing different Pokémon games than Griffin because dang near each one is at least as innovative as the jump from Gen 1 to 2.

William (Biggggg5) Mason

I love the smell, I mean sound of Besties in the morning.

Travis

Ya'll, we forgot Alan Wake 2..

Travis

Damn, ME2 is one of my top games of all time but I absolutely did not expect it to make the finals given the jury—but so glad it did (for the record, I also love mass effect 1). The only sequel that would maybe beat it for me would be KotOR II, but I know that would have a far slimmer chance given the last bracket discussion. For best third game, BG3 is obviously fantastic but I never played the others. Fallout 3 is another favorite of mine, but I think you’d have to do Tactics instead. But with a similar rubric, I think Morrowind would have a pretty good shot.

Andrew P

Heroes of Might & Magic 3 (I would've put HOMM2 on the 2nd games list Red Alert 3 has the single best line read in the history of Video Games (SPACE!)

Jeff Good

I think I’m done listening to the bracket episodes. At first the bracket was an interesting way to stimulate conversation, but now the nitpicky details of it are actively *preventing* interesting discussions. How can you have an episode titled “The Best Second Game” in which neither Portal 2 nor Uncharted 2—two of the greatest games ever made—even makes it to the final table? It’s all down to the silly bracket. In the Arkham City vs. Portal 2 discussion, it is stated that the things that make Arkham City special are all in the first game, and that Portal 2 is a much better game than Arkham City. So why would you choose Arkham City? Am I missing something? The ensuing discussions—Arkham City vs. Pokémon Gold/Silver?—were not interesting. The whole last half of the episode I kept thinking about the conversation we *could* be listening to: Portal 2 vs. Uncharted 2 vs. Assassin’s Creed 2 vs. Street Fighter 2. That would be interesting. But we didn’t get that, because of the bracket. So can you ditch the bracket contrivance? Just pick some games and have an interesting discussion about them.

Scott Dierdorf

A Link to the Past Super Mario Bros 3 Super Metroid (oops all Nintendo)

Joe Yancey

"Final Fantasy III"? It's a sick game I spent a lot of time with! But only a third in the US for a while, before emulators and globalization...

Benjamin Heasly

Super Metroid! I was aghast it wasn't in the bracket for this episode until I remembered it was a threequel. Love also for Link to the Past and Space Quest III :-)

Benjamin Heasly

The dismissal of the original Mass Effect had me in the Twilight Zone. Maybe I'm losing my mind but I feel like there are some pretty well-accepted avenues where ME2 is an arguable regression considering how it streamlines RPG mechanics and implements planet scanning (had to listen to a podcast to get through gathering upgrade materials). I agree it's an overall improvement, even a substantial one, but Mass Effect is good!

Zach Davis

I would love this!

Grant Cameron

Allowing you to trade weapons with NPCs, instead of bashing their heads in for it, was/is a DRASTIC improvement between Halo 1 & 2. 😝

Directional Joy

Sorry guys but Mario Kart SNES is superior to 64. Imo it took a while for 3d mariokarts to get good.

Grant Cameron

I did! IV is my fav from the series for sure. The dragon transformations in these games were the coolest to me.

Travis 'Santikaro' Cooper

Did you play breath of fire IV? I think that was my fave, loved the duel protags.

Grant Cameron

The line “just by listening you’re a member” tickled me especially funny today when I realized this is an episode sent out to the people effectively paying “dues” 😂 idk why that just hit me.

William (Biggggg5) Mason

My top 3 third games: Zelda, link to the past, Morrowind, and mass effect 3. I know ME 3 is controversial, but I still feel that, despite the ending, it had some amazing cinematic moments and truly was an amazing culmination of the journeys you took with your companions. Saying the final goodbyes to your team just before the final mission on earth was really emotional for me.

Brian Leon

that's the list, no notes

Zardoz

oh, besties over breakfast, lovely

Zardoz

Well this just made me SO happy! I’m not alone in loving this game!

Travis 'Santikaro' Cooper

That was a fantastic game!

Grant Cameron

My top 3rd game is Breath of Fire III. This game is an all time favorite of mine and I would LOVE a remake of it. Unfortunately I think I’m a loner on this one. I don’t even think people know this game 😂.

Travis 'Santikaro' Cooper

Best third games ever: Super Mario Bros 3 Grand Theft Auto 3 Legend of Zelda Link to the Past

Kormakur Gardarsson

Understandable

Nicholas Shumate

The besties did not think that they, as four near middle aged white men, could do that topic in a way that was fair and inclusive on that topic.

Patrick Riney

Ironic this dropped after Hades II released in early access! Please do a Besties or Resties on it 🙏🏻 it’s amazing so far

Jason Lithgo

I think I missed the explanation, but why was the sequel topic chosen over the romance topic?

Nicholas Shumate

My top three third games would be 1) Baldur's Gate 3 2) Dragon Age: Inquisition 3) Witcher 3 All high fantasy, which actually surprised me. I actually really like Mass Effect 3, even though it's divisive, and I love Mario Kart Double Dash, Super Mario 3, and Infamous: Second Son, but slightly less than the three I chose ha ha.

Stephen J. Lunatic

Technically Kingdom Hearts II is a third game, Chain of Memory was the second released in series. With that it has to be: Kingdom Hearts II Far Cry 3 Super Metroid

Colton Butcher

Also Diablo 2 and Borderlands 2

Jan Hain

Mother 3 Heroes of Might and Magic 3 Ace Attorney 3 Easiest question of my life

rylander

My top 3 third games are: Dark Souls 3 Witcher 3 MGS3 Snake Eater Honorable mention for Pokemon Emerald, but that's third *generation*, and doesn't really count

Luke

How about Red Dead Dedemption 2, Team Fortress 2 and Super Mario Galaxy 2?

Jan Hain

Was about to comment on how one of the besties must also have some insomnia going on before remembering that pacific time exists

Kathryn

The magic system idea is amazing. All for that bracket.

AaronElWhite

This bracket is insane. Multiple games in my Top 10 of all-time are on this list! As for top three ever? Oh boy. That's always an impossible question. Today I'll say Rocket League, The Last of Us, and Portal 2.

AaronElWhite

Yes!!!! So excited for this one! I'd love to see a bracket for Best Magic System at some point!! thanks for the amazing content as always

Icky Slicky