Buffy the Vampire Slayer: 6x19 Full Reaction
Added 2025-04-27 14:00:16 +0000 UTC"Seeing Red"
Comments
I don’t necessarily see Spike as a sociopath, but he isn’t really human either. He’s an echo of a human. And he has never understood consent, and it has never played any real role in the relationship between him and Buffy. She says no, and he pushes through until she accepts. It’s a dynamic that was always toxic and going to end badly; and this finally makes vivid how this has always worked between them. Violence and sex and love have always been mixed in Spike - since at least Dru, the woman who understood him and murdered him and loved him. Him and Buffy began and ended their relationship this season in violence, and maybe that’s the only kind of relationship he really intuitively understands as a soulless vampire, playing the echo of the romantic human it took over so long ago.
HollowMan
2025-05-02 06:00:48 +0000 UTCAnd honestly what could be more human than Spikes feelings and behaviour bc humans do all this and worse with the benefit of souls
Loryn
2025-05-01 23:58:08 +0000 UTCAs to AB being put in the opening credits this episode, I think a lot of fans see it as some sort of shade or slight to towards her and us to put her in at that time. I try and see it as giving her her props before her exit, especially since there's often a pay bump that comes with including an actor in the top billing like that. I don't know if that was the motivation or not but that's the theory that I like to go with in order to help me keep a positive spin on things.
Preaching to the Horse's Mouth
2025-05-01 03:28:24 +0000 UTCThe choice to cut the bathroom scene to commercial so that you think you're getting some relief from having to watch it only to jump right back in to it is particularly rough. I try and remind myself that that actually makes it smart directing and storytelling in its own way, which it is, but jeesh is it ever hard to watch. There's a real risk I'm gonna catch some legit heat for this but here goes: The reactors I always appreciate the most are the ones who, like myself, examine the show with a strong eye towards the storytelling without getting too caught up doing what I think a lot of fans do and that's put a lot of energy into condemning the characters and their actions. We can say whatever about Spike, Xander, Riley etc and their negative actions and attitudes but that's a lot of what makes them more real. Real people aren't perfect and sometimes do horrible shit. In fact all of our characters, even Buffy, have some pretty serious flaws. That's where the drama comes from and we need that to tell an interesting story. All of that to say I really eff with the way break it all down, C, keep doing what you're doing.
Preaching to the Horse's Mouth
2025-05-01 03:11:20 +0000 UTCI think this episode plays a part on why some people are so critical of Spike and/or spuffy and are very vocal toward people that have sympathies for Spike. Some people do not realize that we have had years, even decades, to make up our opinions on the show and its characters. And that in the end those opinions are just that, opinions. Early on the lore of the show indicate that soulless = evil, but at the same time there are indications that it's not that black and white. The Watcher's council have an interest in teaching that demons are 100% evil, they themselves show that one can be evil while having a soul.
slypeartree
2025-04-30 20:12:54 +0000 UTCYou wanna see some complicated love arcs you should go watch Netflick's 5 season series You. I just finished the last season that just came out. Let me tell you it's a very interesting, funny and scandalous kinda show. I definitey recommend.
Morgan Williams
2025-04-30 04:30:27 +0000 UTCI always thought Buffy didn't love Spike, and that he loved her as much as his souless self is capable of.
Morgan Williams
2025-04-30 04:26:59 +0000 UTCIt's about to get real....
Morgan Williams
2025-04-30 04:21:35 +0000 UTCI tried to tell you about Tara joining the main credits before by saying to check them out before this episode aired. More people shoulda hinted it at it. Oh well.
Morgan Williams
2025-04-30 03:40:36 +0000 UTCLet me start with this- I like Xander. He's funny, loyal and immature. Yes, very immature and that's okay. That said- he also infuriates me more than any other character. Like any immature person, he has a different set of rules and expectations for others than he has for himself. And, that drives me nuts at times. That said- I still think he's an awesome character. He has character growth that is very believable. He never fully grows up but does so enough to respect him.
aeronitz
2025-04-29 15:21:19 +0000 UTCI always think it's strange that people think of what Spike did in this episode as "evil, soulless vampire" behaviour. When he attempted to kill that woman in the alley when he thought his chip was broken or when he put the whole town at risk with dangerous demon eggs, he did those things because he simply doesn't care about other people. I think it's a hard truth to admit that despite being a soulless evil vampire, that's not why he behaved the way he did in the bathroom. It wasn't out of spite or malice or indifference or a love of violence or any of those vampire things. It was a distressingly *human* crime. A complete contrast to how Angelus and Spike would do that sort of thing to people all across Europe for the purpose of causing suffering.
Cyrinil
2025-04-29 08:35:09 +0000 UTCI really wanted to leave comments on here saying please Cassie never read the comments as it's like you say people have formed opinions after watching the show lots of times, plus people leave hints about episodes that aren't out right spoilers, but if you read them then you will form thoughts on what they are hinting at. It was the first time i noticed that the bed sheet that Tara and Willow were under the first time in the episode was red, then you mentioned Buffy's red coat, Xander's smashed red face, Spike saw red in the bathroom, Warren saw red in rage against Buffy and finally Willow saw red all over her blouse. There must be more red colours or metaphors in the episode that I have missed.
David Allan
2025-04-28 22:47:09 +0000 UTCI appreciate your comment on hints or reminders of what you're supposed to think or know. The best reactions are blind reactions but it seems like a lot of people want you to have the same understanding as 15x Buffy watch veterans and have "right think" going into episodes. It's really sad. My first recommendation to any new Buffy reactor would be to never read any comments if they want the best experience. Some people just can't help themselves.
Captain Hammer
2025-04-28 01:31:58 +0000 UTCWhat did you say? Tara is not a regular? Think you have to watch the Opening credits of this episode again. ;-)
Gregor
2025-04-27 23:19:00 +0000 UTCI've mentioned in previous comments that I came into the series sideways ("Angel" first starting at the end of season2/beginning of season 3 before watching "Buffy") so this episode didn't HIT me out of the blue. I knew about it before I ever watched the episode itself. But it's still such a Big episode for all the reasons. I've gone over my thoughts of Spike's "love" in several previous comments, and my opinion hasn't changed there: It's not a question of if he does or doesn't love Buffy, but what he MEANS by "love". He ENJOYS Buffy, he APPROVES of Buffy, he DESIRES Buffy, and many people would describe those feelings as "love". But other people would just call that "lust" or "obsession", or something else. I certainly wouldn't call that love in the romantic sense. That doesn't mean he's "lying" about it, but he's still not right about it. And we see that culmination here. If he did love her, really LOVE her and not just have sexual desire and possessiveness and all his other feelings smushed together, he could never have done what he does (Or other stuff he's done previously). I hope I haven't been one of the ones nudging too hard on reminding you about Spike, I always try to tailor my comments to how I think I would have felt with only the aired-to-date episodes for context. If I judged that wrong I'm sorry, and I'm sorry to hear the cumulative comments have telegraphed how the show is going to go.
JBK405
2025-04-27 23:13:11 +0000 UTCReally brilliant after discussion. Spike is such a complex and fascinating character and I agree that it does a disservice to the reactors experience when commenter's allude or try to warn reactors about things. As for Spike himself, I agree with your assessment that he does love buffy...to the extent that a soulless vampire can. It's not a healthy or selfless version of love, but i do believe it's love to him. its just not the love that buffy deserves. Buffy deserves a selfless love.
mary smith
2025-04-27 19:39:18 +0000 UTCSpike's scene with Clem (Good ol' Clem! It's always great to see him) shows the existential crisis he's trapped in. He knows what he's done. Soulless monster or not, he understands what it meant. And if he is a monster, then "why didn't I do it?" Remember, Spike CAN kill Buffy. The chip doesn't work with her. So what is he? If he's not a man, or a monster, then his only conclusion is that defeated "I'm nothing."
DanielOrme
2025-04-27 18:15:51 +0000 UTCSex and violence. The season started with demons threatening sex and violence, it proceeded to Dawn making out with then killing her first vamp, Buffy and Spike getting off on the beating of each other (that is their physical connection) and then proceeding to actually getting off, the more forbidden and twisted the more enticing. Buffy wanted it to hurt, or she would have stopped it long before it got to actual sex. Xander and Anya blew it because of the violence he saw and knew was likely and Anya was out of patience and turned right back to vengeance (re violence). Xander's reaction to Spike is violence as release of pain. It is a violent show -- with violence as the way most things get resolved. But I like that when it comes to those we love, the show makes no bones that that really doesn't usually work. Faith couldn't get beat by Buffy into seeing reason, only Angel could bring her back from the brink of madness, by showing forgiveness in the face of her meltdown. Willow and Tara getting back together seemed right, because it was a ray of light in the dark season of escalating danger, and of course because we all wanted the best for Willow, despite the red flags she was sending out for years. Willow sort of took a Faith dark turn, but then caught herself, now we get to see her again in the throes of complete crisis with no support from anyone, and in a position to not take any help, to avoid the humiliation. The season is about can relationships survive all the destruction from without and within, and the answer is definitely not always. The premise is the humiliation of being weak is too much to take, so turn to violence to try to stop it. Buffy, Anya, Xander, Spike, Dawn, Willow, even Warren all feel guilt, but the humiliation is what makes them destruct and go crazy. Giles and Tara did something else .. they left. They saw that it was a no-win, and that staying in the humiliation was not helping them or anyone else. Spike has had a cycle of humiliations, and finally leaving, but being drawn back .. love's bitch and all that rot. A lot of people try to analyze why Spike did that, and I always say for drama, and to get him out of the way for the finale; make him skedaddle, so the gang can do the big thing without him. But sex and violence, that has been the theme of the entire season.
spikeysnack
2025-04-27 18:03:24 +0000 UTCI remember having that same feeling of dread regarding Willow and Tara when I first watched this, but I never quite understood where it was coming from until your explanation. Nicely done!
DanielOrme
2025-04-27 17:54:37 +0000 UTCMarsters said that when we watch a show, we as viewers identify with one of the characters, most often Buffy, although I have seen cases where someone identified with Willow. So when Spike tries to rape Buffy (which he obviously doesn't see as that), he also tries to rape almost every viewer, regardless of gender. Of course, not everyone can handle it properly. I have seen people who have never forgiven Spike's character for this scene, no matter what happens next. The scene was written or invented by Marty Noxon, one of the show's lead writers, and it was her personal experience. She was breaking up with a guy, and she came to him, trying to somewhat aggressively propose sex to him to make things better again, and it didn't work out, apparently, and he had to kick her out of his own apartment. Some blame her for this scene, but the problem is that this scene was approved by all the writers, including Joss. Marsters also said that he has an old neck injury, and if he overexerts himself, this injury makes his body convulse. And they shot this scene, take after take, as usual, to then do a collage, and of course he acted great, as always, and he was sick of doing it, and at one point the injury worked, and he even had to call the medics. There was also a moment when he was on his knees and his head was on the floor, and it seemed to him that if he pushed his head hard enough, he would fall through the floor and end up somewhere else. After this scene, he had to go to therapy, and he can't watch scenes like this anyway. Some people find Spike's actions uncharacteristic. I think they're more than typical, considering that he doesn't see it as an attempted rape, but more as a continuation of their rather confusing game of not having a stop word. As Faith said in episode 15 of season 3, the stop word is for the weak or something. You see, as I've written before, Spike really doesn't think that what happened between him and Buffy was anything more than just sex. And when Dawn tells him that he hurt Buffy, he can't believe that it's because she loves him. Of course, he asks just in case. And Buffy says no, there's no love. And so he tries to give her what he thinks she's bad without - sex with him. Of course, he appreciated what they had, even though he didn't think it was anything serious on her part. It's also interesting that he asks first why he did it, and then almost immediately why he didn't do it (before). It was part of his nature, he'd obviously done it before as a soulless vampire, but he'd never tried to do it to Buffy, even though he loved her more than life. He's changed, but ultimately, these changes are limited by his nature and the more he changes, the more disordered it becomes in his psyche. Does Spike love Buffy? Selfishly, yes. I mean, that's normal, most people love that way. Buffy always loves selfishly, she'll always look for ways to save her love and will only act decisively when there are no other options left. When she sent Angel to hell, she simply had no other options left. And we saw such love from Spike back in season 2 -- he's willing to do anything for Drusilla, he won't run away without her, even if he's in danger. Spike is also able to suppress his selfish nature -- we see this in season 6, but even in season 5 he didn't confess his feelings to Buffy, even though selfishness would have made him do it right away and expect some reaction. He also develops special relationships with Dawn and Joyce, which are not directly related to Buffy.
ThePowerDrome
2025-04-27 16:23:09 +0000 UTCThat's a really great breakdown of Spike's character. I agree on almost all counts. While there are some inconsistencies (because it's a show, not real life), I feel like his actions make the most sense when you view him as a charming sociopath. He cares about how he is perceived, so he acts in certain ways to reinforce that perception, but it's all based on selfishness.
R. Chang
2025-04-27 16:19:19 +0000 UTCFirst thing first... I very much get that people following reaction channels get too enthusiastic in their comments. I hope that I have done a good enough job in sticking with the current moment with my own comments and remain non-spoiling since I have seen the full show many times. As to the bathroom scene, well such things have more to do with power than anything else and Warren really has that "energy" in spades. Spike showed it from a severe "toxic" relationship standpoint. I think that this is one of the best examples of a dividing line between those fans that 'ship Spike and those that detest Spike. As I dimly recall there was plenty of "eyeroll" energy of "not again" with the Spike/Buffy thing starting after the Buffy/Angel thing. This might be another division line. I don't recall much about Sarah Michelle Gellar discussing the bathroom scene and any impact on her filming it. James Marsters apparently did not think highly of it and as I understand, he eventually needed therapy to handle his feelings about it. I have a tough time relating to the dynamic and don't wish to try to. I guess I was lucky that in my own experience with a toxic romantic relationship, I was the one that ultimately wanted out and away from it. About Willow... remember when Tara was hurt by Glory and how she reacted? "Uh-Oh..." pretty much covers it. Looking forward to the ride to end of season six Cheers.
Michael Labs
2025-04-27 16:18:42 +0000 UTCI think Spike is completely infatuated with Buffy. I believe some genuine care is there but I think it’s just a strong admiration for her that has led him to his irrational behavior. I think in his mind he believes its love or what he perceives as love. Infatuation is intense, passionate and typically isn’t a lasting emotion. But he idolizes her in way, to me, like a stalker would a movie star. He’s a complex character because he started out as a man with real feelings and emotions. Then he became a soulless demon, completely opposite of what he once was. Then the chip neutralized his demon half and was forced to act like a man again but with mixed emotions. He should have gone to therapy after all that. lol. But it’s what makes his character interesting. Everything he’s been through. Is it love with Buffy? I think in his mind he’s doing what he perceives as love and in a way that only he knows how.
Whitney Mercer
2025-04-27 16:05:37 +0000 UTCtotally agree with you. clumsy/shock-value is how i feel about both spike and tara. none of the plot points here feel earned.
kachow6969
2025-04-27 16:02:15 +0000 UTCA brutal fucking episode, and Christ, I really do agree with you on the spoilers Cass. So many people think hints don't count as spoilers, but their hints are often anvils. I dislike a lot of the developments in this episode. Even if the intention was to remind audiences that Spike can't be trusted, this was not the way to do it. It's handled in a clumsy, shock-value way much like a certain Game of Thrones storyline. I likewise hate Tara's death. It's abrupt and shocking, but almost too much to the point where it doesn't really register because you're too busy thinking, ''Wait, what?''
Jorgalorg
2025-04-27 15:41:03 +0000 UTCYeah that's fucking unhinged
Maia Brodsky
2025-04-27 15:40:15 +0000 UTCI hate the commercial cut during the attempted SA. Back then it was like "come back after these commercials to see if Spike SA'd Buffy!" Also, sucks you missed Amber in the opening credits! It makes Tara's death even more like a sucker punch (if it wasn't already a completely shockingly depressive moment to everyone).
MG
2025-04-27 15:32:09 +0000 UTCWasn't it planned for a long time? Like I heard Joss was gonna do the same to Oz if he hadn't left the show. I agree it just completely ripped her character away with no resolution to her arc, but I don't know if we can fairly claim it had anything to do with her being gay.
Maia Brodsky
2025-04-27 15:18:17 +0000 UTCYeah, someone mentioned it in the Community tab, I think. And she said she'd have to go back and look.
Melissa
2025-04-27 15:14:28 +0000 UTCProbably the most interesting reaction I've seen to this episode honestly. Hardly any shock or sadness. It's a surprising but refreshing change. I really admire how you dissect the show. I'm not a Spuffy fan, so I will leave it to those that are to define their relationship. The best I can say is it's complicated.
Melissa
2025-04-27 15:11:08 +0000 UTC"Your shirt. " This line gets me every time. 😪
Christine Cox
2025-04-27 15:10:01 +0000 UTCalso, tara’s death is one of the og offenders of the bury your gays trope. so unearned and frustrating.
kachow6969
2025-04-27 15:09:21 +0000 UTC"Tara is dead-dead because she is not a series regular". This hurts even more 👀😢
Minister Kosh
2025-04-27 15:03:39 +0000 UTCIt was Marti Noxon's idea to make Spike attempt to rape Buffy but tell yourself whatever makes you feel better about Joss
madfem
2025-04-27 14:56:43 +0000 UTCDid she completely miss Tara in the opening credits?
Whitney Mercer
2025-04-27 14:56:01 +0000 UTCI think you missed the whole "orbs as a metaphor for balls" going on in the episode and all the ways they used that to make Andrew sound even gayer than he already has in the past and how Buffy smashing Warren's orbs is about smashing his balls 🤭
madfem
2025-04-27 14:53:20 +0000 UTCit’s hard for me to take any of spike’s extra crazy shit too seriously knowing that joss whedon hated him and wanted to assassinate his character constantly. xander on the other hand, somehow i hate that guy more every time i rewatch this show
kachow6969
2025-04-27 14:53:03 +0000 UTCHere we go...steeling myself.
Zoë Johanson
2025-04-27 14:24:39 +0000 UTCReactors keep dropping this episode whenever I've really rough week man 😭 Hope you're doing ok Cass. Idk if I have it in me to watch this today.
Maia Brodsky
2025-04-27 14:23:16 +0000 UTCOne of the most "hated" episodes. Also, your comment on people commenting about Spike being without a soul is a reason why I don't comment a whole lot. Mostly because I am afraid of accidentally spoiling something for you.
Douglas Robertson
2025-04-27 14:17:02 +0000 UTCOh man...
Jordan McLaren
2025-04-27 14:15:09 +0000 UTCOh Boy, it's here
James Smith
2025-04-27 14:13:28 +0000 UTCOh my god it’s here
Melissa Reynolds
2025-04-27 14:06:21 +0000 UTCUh oh, the infamous episode 19 of season six, Cassie I’m sending you a virtual hug right now, it’s gonna be okay, we’ll get through this together! ❤️
Keenan White
2025-04-27 14:04:58 +0000 UTCAt last
Ryan Kerr
2025-04-27 14:01:38 +0000 UTC
