˗ˏˋ OPEN BOOK CLUB ´ˎ˗ : Song of Achilles (Ch 7-12 Discussion Thread)
Added 2024-10-19 21:09:52 +0000 UTCOOOO BABY THE TIME HAS COME
yall imma be honest.
i forgot how ... explicit a scene in this book was ... LOOOOLLL
i was at the salon getting my hair dyed and was reading the cave scene and was like OOP- MUST HIDE SCREEN NOW
i think the first time i read this book, i prob had just read another random fantasy smut story that this just didnt even register in my corrupted brain hahaha
like this isnt SMUT but it do be a little explicit in that one moment
ANYWHO
LETS GET RIGHT INTO IT <3
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chapters 7-12 discussion thread:
i adored these chapters
i LOVED the character development of Patroclus becoming stronger, especially with the guidance of Chiron (which is one of my fav characters). but what i loved more was seeing these boys growing into good men because of the guidance of their mentor but also because they had each other.
these chapters hold some of my favorite moments and quotes
from chapter 10:
'I'll tell you a secret."
'Tell me." I loved when he was like this.
'I'm going to be the first.' He took my palm and held it to his. 'Swear it.'
'Why me?'
'Because you're the reason. Sweat it.'
'I swear it' (page 98).
THIS MAKES MY HEART ACHE, TRULY ACHE. Achilles story is no secret as most readers are familiar with the Iliad and Madeline Miller knows how to make the story hurt that much more
from chapter 12:
The angry words pricked in my mouth.
But when I tried to speak them, I found I could not. His cheeks were flushed with shame, and the skin beneath his eyes was weary. His trust was a part of him, as much as his hands or his miraculous feet. And despite my hurt, I would not wish to see it gone, to see him as uneasy and fearful as the rest of us, for any price (page 127).
Something shifted in me then, like the frozen surface of the Apidanos in spring. I had seen the way he looked at Deidameia; or rather the way he did not. It was the same way he had looked at the boys in Phthia, blank and unseeing. He had never, not once, looked at me that way (page 127).
there is something so beautiful about watching their love be so pure; accepting flaws and understanding that individual is who they are because of ALL their traits.
and the "He had never, not once, looked at me that way." mY GOD. it feels like a mic drop whenever she ends a paragraph LOL
and of COURSE, we can't forget about the most famous quote from the series:
Had she really thought I would not know him? I could recognize him by touch alone, by smell; I would know him blind, by the way his breaths came and his feet struck the earth. I would know him in death, at the end of the world.
i WEEP at this quote. when i first finished the series, i read this quote to john and CRIED MY EYES OUT LOL and he was like wow that's beautiful *pats head* like he was not ready for the absolute waterworks ahaha
but this is, by far, my favorite quote in the book. it is so tender and loving and intimate and beautiful. something about how it starts small, picks up pace, and ends in formidable death gets me EVERY. TIME.
overall, i think these chapters are the true foundation of the book. we get to see and explore the relationship growing between our two main characters and the many dynamics that arise.
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here are some topics and questions i'd love to dive deeper into with you all in the comments:
any favorite quotes that stood out to you other than the ones i mentioned above?
do you think Patroclus' insecurity about not being exceptional influences the way he feels about Achilles?
how is Patroclus changing as a person? what do you think caused these changes?
what do you think Thetis meant by her warnings about Achilles' destiny? do you think the characters fully understand the consequences yet?
if you were in Patroclus' shoes, how would you handle loving someone whose fate is, with certainty, tied to war and death?
are there any moments that stood out to you or that you just wanna chat more about?
LET'S CHAT ABOUT IT!
♡
Comments
i think its so pure, the love they have for each other and truly believing that they'll get through whatever lies in the future together, even through hearing all the warnings that they dont quite understand yet. takes you back to that first love feeling, or the person you love/loved so deeply that u can really relate to the way these two speak and think of each other. i think what really struck me was when achilles told patroclus that he would go with him, if patroclus had to go to the war. i dont know why, but that simple line at the end of the chapter was so touching
Pb
2024-11-04 09:56:35 +0000 UTCPage 98 was where I realised I have to add little tabs in this book so that I can come back and read my favorite sentences
Scarlett Larsson
2024-10-24 20:24:46 +0000 UTCthese are such loaded chapters and there’s so much to say. as for patroclus and achilles, my favorite quote btwn them is that patroclus sees achilles “outlined against the painted stars”, which reminded me that some greek heroes are in our constellation system. maybe miller was trying to imply that patroclus was placing achilles in th stars alongside them, showing that he sees achilles as his hero. how cute <3. but aside that, for some reason, this second read has me devoting most of my attention to the other characters involved. what’s crazy that in aug 2022 i only wrote down one quote during my read, and i wrote down the same quote for this reread: “and perhaps it is the greater grief, after all, to be left on earth when another is gone” like that is so PAINFUL. it makes me think about how gods KNOW how individuals experience suffering and how to impose that on them. i applied this thought to thetis — how unapproving she is to patroclus, in her mind as a human of minimal significance and skill. and how she hasn’t rid of him, maybe knowing that achilles would be in that said “greater grief”, so she continues to haunt patroclus and thinks of him as a mere distraction to achilles’ success. i also love chiron in this book and i think he’s an interesting character to discuss. he calls other centaurs “barbarians”, he interferes with thetis on patroclus’ behalf. he sets himself apart from gods and is willing to act in defiance. he lets patroclus have a voice, ie to decline fighting classes (which i think aside from feeling subpar, patroclus probably has a fear of killing). he says “you do not give up things so easily as you once did” to patroclus, which also made me emotional - someone finally sees potential in this boy and thinks he is worthy of having dreams and desires!! let him be who he wants to be!!! this THEN takes me to the point of patroclus‘ supplication to peleus, in blind desperation in locating achilles. another development in character - super unexpected for him, since we always perceived him to be very hesitant and unsure of his decisions. this boy is changing so much and it’s endearing to see but also terrifying because he’s playing this game against immortals.. looking forward to see how their relationship changes as they continue to grapple with society and expectations. i genuinely don't rmbr a thing (so yes lol ch10 was a shock i forgot about that scene lmfao) but i’m locked tf in omg this is literally an essay
aligirl
2024-10-22 03:03:32 +0000 UTCTheme of indulgence When society and culture indulge indulgence as normalcy how much more audacious is Patroclus and Achilles to refuse assimilation? Not necessarily as acts of defiance, but because they are falling in love and to do so is almost a revulsion of that love’s purity. It would have been “too easy” for either of them to satisfy their new sexual curiosities, yet as Patroclus admits, these new stares from Achilles were unfamiliar and it set him at unease. Love is frightening no matter what age you encounter it. How much greater these character’s seem that as teenagers they seemed to grasp the sanctity of that love; despite not fulling understanding it in the beginning. This character who is constantly described as weak, somber, secondary, a-passing-thought, can do that which is most difficult — and stand against the current. That this exile, would dare to love a god against the approval of his goddess mother, the approval of society, and perhaps even against the approval of the Fates.
Honestfictionist
2024-10-21 17:06:58 +0000 UTCthese chapters drew mii a WHOLE ANIME (w/ hentai too! :ddd) bahahaha iContinue to admire how she composes the story, using anecdotes as they grow up to ease us into each new theme “𝐀𝐜𝐡𝐢𝐥𝐥𝐞𝐬, 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐦𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭 𝐥𝐨𝐨𝐤 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐥𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭-𝐡𝐚𝐢𝐫𝐞𝐝 𝐠𝐢𝐫𝐥, 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐤𝐢𝐭𝐜𝐡𝐞𝐧. 𝐒𝐡𝐞 𝐡𝐚𝐬 𝐛𝐞𝐞𝐧 𝐡𝐚𝐮𝐧𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐝𝐨𝐨𝐫𝐰𝐚𝐲𝐬 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐲𝐨𝐮, 𝐈 𝐡𝐞𝐚𝐫.” 𝐈𝐭 𝐰𝐚𝐬 𝐡𝐚𝐫𝐝 𝐭𝐨 𝐤𝐧𝐨𝐰 𝐢𝐟 𝐢𝐭 𝐰𝐚𝐬 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐢𝐫𝐞𝐥𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐦𝐚𝐝𝐞 𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐟𝐚𝐜𝐞 𝐥𝐨𝐨𝐤 𝐬𝐨 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐞𝐝. “𝐏𝐞𝐫𝐡𝐚𝐩𝐬, 𝐅𝐚𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫. 𝐈 𝐚𝐦 𝐭𝐢𝐫𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨𝐧𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭.” 𝐏𝐞𝐥𝐞𝐮𝐬 𝐜𝐡𝐮𝐜𝐤𝐥𝐞𝐝, 𝐚𝐬 𝐢𝐟 𝐭𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐰𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐚 𝐣𝐨𝐤𝐞. “𝐈’𝐦 𝐬𝐮𝐫𝐞 𝐬𝐡𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐰𝐚𝐤𝐞 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐮𝐩.” 𝐇𝐞 𝐰𝐚𝐯𝐞𝐝 𝐮𝐬 𝐨𝐟𝐟.” /// building on Achilles' 🅢🅘🅖🅜🅐 indifference while feeling realistic — regardless of his orientation. men being monke s3x hungry is something iToo will never understand (iGuessImGay) all said, iLüv how artfully she foreshadows! iHonestly had no idea they were going to kiss 💏 iThot this was supposed to be a violent and bloody story about brotherhood && lüv (and it is) haha, so their flirtation throughout was maddd fünni, coot, && surprising! “𝐈 𝐬𝐡𝐢𝐟𝐭, 𝐚𝐧 𝐢𝐧𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐭𝐞𝐬𝐢𝐦𝐚𝐥 𝐦𝐨𝐯𝐞𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭, 𝐭𝐨𝐰𝐚𝐫𝐝𝐬 𝐡𝐢𝐦. 𝐈𝐭 𝐢𝐬 𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐥𝐞𝐚𝐩 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐚 𝐰𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐟𝐚𝐥𝐥. 𝐈 𝐝𝐨 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐤𝐧𝐨𝐰, 𝐮𝐧𝐭𝐢𝐥 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐧, 𝐰𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐈 𝐚𝐦 𝐠𝐨𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐨 𝐝𝐨. 𝐈 𝐥𝐞𝐚𝐧 𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐰𝐚𝐫𝐝 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐨𝐮𝐫 𝐥𝐢𝐩𝐬 𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐜𝐥𝐮𝐦𝐬𝐢𝐥𝐲 𝐨𝐧 𝐞𝐚𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫.” /// mfw first kiss 💋 and allowing them to gently build on this moment by going to Hagrid'z house in the forest was CINEMA. iLiterally yelled "DRAGON BALL MOMENT LETSGO" when they got to train outside with centaur sensei(x watching them grow & learn with Chiron has been my favorite part thus far too!(: as a jodi say, "it'z about lüv && friendship," and watching their years blossom together took me str8 back to carefree days of adventure — no parents or rulez, just FREEDOM 🐥🌿🐥 “𝐖𝐞 𝐜𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐝𝐚𝐲𝐬 𝐚𝐟𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐢𝐫𝐬𝐭 𝐬𝐧𝐨𝐰𝐟𝐚𝐥𝐥, 𝐦𝐚𝐫𝐤𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦 𝐨𝐟𝐟 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡 𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐞𝐬 𝐨𝐧 𝐚 𝐬𝐭𝐨𝐧𝐞. “𝐖𝐡𝐞𝐧 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐜𝐡 𝐟𝐢𝐟𝐭𝐲,” 𝐂𝐡𝐢𝐫𝐨𝐧 𝐬𝐚𝐢𝐝, “𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐫𝐢𝐯𝐞𝐫’𝐬 𝐢𝐜𝐞 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐛𝐞𝐠𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐨 𝐜𝐫𝐚𝐜𝐤.” 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐦𝐨𝐫𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐨𝐟 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐢𝐟𝐭𝐢𝐞𝐭𝐡 𝐝𝐚𝐲 𝐰𝐞 𝐡𝐞𝐚𝐫𝐝 𝐢𝐭, 𝐚 𝐬𝐭𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐞 𝐬𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐝, 𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞 𝐚 𝐭𝐫𝐞𝐞 𝐟𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐢𝐧𝐠. 𝐀 𝐬𝐞𝐚𝐦 𝐡𝐚𝐝 𝐬𝐩𝐥𝐢𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐳𝐞𝐧 𝐬𝐮𝐫𝐟𝐚𝐜𝐞 𝐧𝐞𝐚𝐫𝐥𝐲 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐛𝐚𝐧𝐤 𝐭𝐨 𝐛𝐚𝐧𝐤. “𝐒𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐰𝐢𝐥𝐥 𝐜𝐨𝐦𝐞 𝐬𝐨𝐨𝐧 𝐧𝐨𝐰,” 𝐂𝐡𝐢𝐫𝐨𝐧 𝐬𝐚𝐢𝐝. 𝐈𝐭 𝐰𝐚𝐬 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐥𝐨𝐧𝐠 𝐚𝐟𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐠𝐫𝐚𝐬𝐬 𝐛𝐞𝐠𝐚𝐧 𝐭𝐨 𝐠𝐫𝐨𝐰 𝐚𝐠𝐚𝐢𝐧, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐬𝐪𝐮𝐢𝐫𝐫𝐞𝐥𝐬 𝐞𝐦𝐞𝐫𝐠𝐞𝐝 𝐥𝐞𝐚𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐰𝐡𝐢𝐩-𝐭𝐡𝐢𝐧 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐢𝐫 𝐛𝐮𝐫𝐫𝐨𝐰𝐬. 𝐖𝐞 𝐟𝐨𝐥𝐥𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐦, 𝐞𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐨𝐮𝐫 𝐛𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐤𝐟𝐚𝐬𝐭𝐬 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐧𝐞𝐰-𝐬𝐜𝐫𝐮𝐛𝐛𝐞𝐝 𝐬𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐚𝐢𝐫.” ... &&& then they MADE LÜV W/ SODOMY AT SIXTEEN HAHA SWY WTFFF 💦🤣 !¡! iNeed wayyy more foreplay than that !¡! i'm surprised she didn't describe the drippingz om 💧 but it was still vewy coot to fall in lüv and FEEL it in their words afterwardz 💞 my only critique of this reading was how abruptly they introduced war — made to leave their mountain oasis and break up IMMEDIATELY after falling in lüv on his Sweet 16® 👿 his mom evil frfr ong nokapp chapter 12 felt a bit rushed in this way, and iFeel the story could have benefited from a bit more development in Scyros w/ its characters although Achilles dancing in a dress was 𝗧𝗢𝗣 𝟭𝟬 𝗔𝗡𝗜𝗠𝗘 𝗖𝗥𝗢𝗦𝗦-𝗗𝗥𝗘𝗦𝗦𝗜𝗡𝗚 𝗠𝗢𝗠𝗘𝗡𝗧𝗭, iCouldnt help but roflcopter. this would have made better impact if they had masked Achilles further or made the dance more mysterious with greater stakes or sümn, but as is, this journey & reveal felt all too sudden and dramatic for my tasté (opinionz) iAlso felt a bit "ah yes, to be yüng." when Petroclus got butthurt jelly of Princess Deidameia, like bro, he was evading war and wanted üHomie <3 don't wüwwyyy — that'z just mii all-in-all, iLüv this book and its characters, && am happi it'z sp!cyyy hehe in the ᑎᗴ᙭T ᑕᕼᗩᑭTᗴᖇᖇᖇ 📖✨ iHope they invite the princess to play too o; /s 💦🐥💦🐥💦🐥💦 THEY ALL DIE 😭
𝔻𝕖𝕒𝕘𝕒𝕟
2024-10-20 23:02:59 +0000 UTChahaha, the yelling about murdering babiez && chapter 12 twistz are REAL ASF 💯
𝔻𝕖𝕒𝕘𝕒𝕟
2024-10-20 21:53:35 +0000 UTCi cant wait til you finish the book so we can also talk of what Patroclus' fate was/is
Open Book with QuarterJade
2024-10-20 21:16:43 +0000 UTCTraditionally masculine perspective here... I'll be honest, I never considered that Patroclus insecurity or Achilles fate weighed on either of them all that much lol. The OTHER PERSON'S concerns were probably harder than their own issues. I think men often just wish to be useful, respected, and to serve a purpose. Patroclus was trying to find his way towards that, and Achilles was a big part of the context obviously. Receiving respect from someone truly great would mean a lot, and become a guiding star towards finding his purpose. Achilles wasn't rushing towards his fate, but I assume that was more about Patroclus than his own feelings.
RahkimVZ
2024-10-20 20:42:58 +0000 UTCI think the characters are not comprehending the finality of their fates and it’s so weird to see it from their perpectives when we know how it ends… Also, they talk about the « fate » of Achilles way more then the « fate » of Patroclus, and that saddens me
Rafaelle🤍
2024-10-19 23:10:04 +0000 UTC1. the page 98 one oh my god we know wats gonna happen bro and I'm just like fuuuckkk its gonna hurrrttt mannnnnn the writer making us fall in love w him and we r just gonna break our hearts, but we just love to see it cuz we always want to feel something and its going to be good healthy cry cuz we do need to let it out time to time. sry that went dark, anyways. and ur last quote, I love that one, thts true love , I pretty sure I cried. 2. I think at first patroclus was intimated but then they go through the training and grown up, I think he started at admire him and accepted all of him you know. 3. I think patroclus has change as a person by he found a purpose, that he realize he doesn't need to fight to help, he can study as a healer after chiron has shown him his tools and ways to be a healer. after he realize there can be a different path he realize there's a different way or skill he can put on the table. i don't know if that made sense. 4. maybe the battle where it like you know, hasn't happen yet, maybe its only the beginning and maybe war you know, or thetis knows whats gonna happen nd he try to save his son nd like not rdy for him to leave yet, maybe achilles will rebel his mom cuz patroclus is going and achilles will follow him anywhere through hell and back, I don't think achilles understands the consequences, he is still young. 5. I WOULD FAIL I DONT WANT TO FUCK W MOTHER NATAURE. man I could not handle that and I'm so happy I'm not, its like that hogwart test asking would save millions or would save that baby, killing that baby would save millions, I would honestly choose the baby nd a baby is like a loved one. 6. I really want to talk abt that fking dress scene LIKE WHAT I did not expected AND WHAT COMES AFTER THAT ITS LIKE PLOT TWIST AFTER PLOT TWIST AFTER PLOT TWIST. my fucking mouth drop feels like the whole 12 chpt, so many things are happening bro I never seen that in a book I don't think
sarah aka pochie
2024-10-19 22:17:05 +0000 UTCTheir interaction at the beginning of chapter 10 when they're talking about how their bodies are changing was such a tender moment. I think this really portrays the dichotomy in Achilles because he's so gentle and thoughtful towards patroclus even though he's considered a weapon of war by the rest of the world. Even when Achilles went back to his stretching, he was thinking of patroclus, and came back to him with such a sweet quote: His voice was remote, almost careless. “You would not be displeased, I think. With how you look now.” My face grew warm, again. But we spoke no more of it." With the story being from Patroclus' perspective, we know how much he is always thinking of Achilles and we know that he feels lesser than him because Achilles is so special to the world and even more so to patroclus. In this moment, he gets to see a glimpse of how Achilles sees him, but Achilles does it in a way that's so nonchalant and natural that patroclus accepts it. He was made to feel weak and disappointing for his whole childhood and the way Achilles talks about him is so kind!
Briana Angelina
2024-10-19 22:14:41 +0000 UTC
