Season 2, Ep 8
Added 2021-08-03 16:07:09 +0000 UTCwhat an interesting creature we had in this one... 😳
Comments
2 years late, commenting here instead of discord, about something that has had massively impressive discussion and views, but here I am. lol. In the end, even though she said what she said, she did give him the choice. He made his choice to turn. I'm WILDLY surprised Spike or anyone else turned him, but she still allowed him the choice. Unfortunately she killed him, because she is the slayer and he's just an average vamp now, but she saved everyone and still allowed him to turn as he wished. You and others here all had very excellent points and listening and reading everyone's perspectives was great, so this is just an *also* comment, because absolutely everything else has been covered. Heck, this might've been covered, too and I'd know if I had figured out discord yet! :P I wish I had found your content 2 years ago! :)
Samanthadiane
2023-07-10 02:03:14 +0000 UTCohhh brain cancer affecting thoughts is something i never thought of.. it was probably quite purposeful of them to make it specifically brain cancer maybe for that reason. that is really interesting to think more about. (LOL about angel and his pesky soul haha) but i agree! and no worries for long comments i really love talking about all this stuff especially with all of you who have watched the show numerous times and had so much thought put into this already! thank you for your comment. :)
darciesnothere
2021-09-07 15:14:44 +0000 UTCJust commenting after your Ford comments but before watching the episode. I love these discussions. Kind of nerding out on the details of the universe. I think the intention of that episode was to inspire thoughts and discussions like this. It really wants to point out that Buffy's universe is gray, not black and white. Was Ford a bad guy? Yes, in basic terms he was. He made the decision to trade a lot of lives just so he could avoid cancer and stay pretty. When thought is really put into it though, it's not so hard to be so judgmental of him though. First, he had brain cancer. Who knows how much that could have affected his decision making capabilities? Brain cancers can have all sorts of effects like mood disorders to other disorders like mania, whereby one's conscience basically ceases to work. Secondly, he was living in a lot of pain and looking forward to more. How any of us would react under such circumstances nobody knows. Even Buffy, later by Ford's grave, talked about how difficult it was to blame him for his actions to Giles. Still, that's kind of the point though too. This is the theme of the show. When the show is broken down to it's basic elements, it's about good vs evil. What makes somebody good and what makes them evil? Buffy really needs to know this, because a less advertised function of being the slayer, is to be the judge of who lives or dies. We can play around with naming someone as good or bad, but in her world, she has to kill the evil ones. In the beginning, before Angel, it was easy. Vampires equals evil equals kill them. Then Angel and his pesky soul comes along and messes with her system. Angel is a vampire, but he doesn't harm. So, does this mean there can be other vampires and demons that she isn't supposed to kill? Potentially yes. Ford was a human willing to trade a lot of innocent lives for his own. Does that give Buffy the right to judge him. Ultimately she did, but only after he became a vampire. So that question is still up in the air. No easy answers. Sorry if that was long, but again, I love the underlying elements that the rest of the show works off of.
Jordan Haddow
2021-09-01 05:12:21 +0000 UTCim just finding out that apparently most people like(d) angel LOL oops!!
darciesnothere
2021-08-10 16:32:42 +0000 UTCIt's interesting watching a reactor that doesn't like Angel. i didn't like him either. i do enjoy his character in his own show, but I didn't like Angel and Buffy's relationship.
Pumpkin 3.14
2021-08-10 16:16:21 +0000 UTCoh i really like this thought - thank you! LOL and never feel bad for skipping to timestamps ;)
darciesnothere
2021-08-09 06:18:38 +0000 UTCoh, it was never a justification - i even said i dont think Ford was correct and that Buffy made the right choice that's why i said none of these in between thoughts even matter! i agree if it was just his own mortality, it would have been just his business. i never implied anyone who was dying of terminal illness would trade safety - that point of my little rant was regarding discussions i had seen where buffy had come to terms with her own dying and ford should too. i was merely showing why it may have been a different thought for him HOWEVER someone actually pointed out that by letting the others go he would die "a hero" in a way as well which i thought was a really interesting take on it. i just dont want anyone to think i would imply anyone who was ill would murder others OR that i took fords side! i didnt :) it was merely me trying to figure out why i kept feeling like the decisions were different, thats all. hope that makes sense!
darciesnothere
2021-08-09 06:17:38 +0000 UTCRe: ye moral dilemma of Ford, according to Buffy. I think it's less of a direct comparison than you're laying out in your justification here. If Ford's only goal was his own immortality, whatever Buffy's personal thoughts on that, it's his business. The key diff here is that Ford's ISN'T just sacrificing himself fin this, he's using the "Lonely Ones" crew as fodder, and offering up Buffy as payment. That's going beyond self preservation in my view. I just doubt the loved ones of mine who were suffering terminal illness would have traded the safety of innocent people, strangers OR childhood friend,
Renee Pope-Munro
2021-08-09 06:00:49 +0000 UTCJust RE: Your opening thoughts - Buffy and Ford differ because of hope. Ford had lost hope and though Buffy was scared she had hope. These things I had never thought about so appreciated the opening! (Even if I was tempted to skip when I saw that timestamp xD)
Callumbo Heath
2021-08-08 11:52:56 +0000 UTCTBH I didn't think of the concealer option but if that's what she used, let me know the brand because I'll buy a bottle because DAMN it's good!! LOL ;) And yes I'll keep trying to point out other continuity things that I notice....glad I wasn't the only one who flagged the tattoo thingy!
Patrick Lyke
2021-08-07 01:34:48 +0000 UTCLOL fair fair! noted :)
darciesnothere
2021-08-07 00:45:51 +0000 UTCLOL thanks patrick! i know there are so many things i wanna be like TELL MEEEEE DOES THIS HAPPENNNN but you are all so good at staying hush hush haha. and YES i love the continuity things - i literally was thinking of the tattoo thing too! i meant to go back and look lol this is funny! hopefully she gets it removed pretty quickly anyway so they dont have to keep thinking about it haha.
darciesnothere
2021-08-07 00:45:36 +0000 UTCFrom the BtVS wiki: "The music to which Buffy aerobicizes and Giles objects, despite being updated to a late-'90s techno idiom, quotes a prominent guitar riff from the musical Jesus Christ Superstar. The riff underscores the 39 Lashes in the "Trial Before Pilate", appears prominently in the Overture, and opens the song "Heaven on Their Minds", which is sung by the character Judas Iscariot—a role originated by Anthony Stewart Head's older brother Murray Head on the original 1970 concept album of the musical." Another source says that the snippet (heard 3.06 into the overture) definitely has been technofied, but doesn't say by whom. Needs more research, I suppose. (Giles would be so pleased!)
Jessica Roth
2021-08-06 21:03:07 +0000 UTCThat's really interesting, I didn't notice the music. So I've just gone back and listened again, and while it's definitely the same basic music it sounds like no version I've ever heard before. Some kind of dance remix?
David Meadows
2021-08-06 19:07:29 +0000 UTCConcealer?
Jessica Roth
2021-08-05 14:00:03 +0000 UTCI keep forgetting this, which is ironic. For all the guff we give Angel about his lack of manners, it should be noted that Giles and Calendar walk off at the end without giving Angel the "Thank you" he's earned. (I mention this because…well, I can't say now, because of spoilers. Just noting it, for later reference.)
Jessica Roth
2021-08-05 13:52:44 +0000 UTCAnother fun reaction!! I really love hearing your breakdown of the episodes and really must keep my mouth shut on some things due to those fun things of spoilers. So, instead I’ll point out some of those fun continuity things I find myself noticing (and which you said you enjoy hearing about) LOL! I apologize if it was pointed out before but what is with how time flows in this town. Maybe it was just me, but the sun didn’t seem to be out that long for that Saturday (starting with the group showing up at the school bright and early – I’m sure that could’ve taken part of the day but from 9am to after sunset??). Also, at the end Buffy is talking about how she needs to save up to get the tattoo removed (while wearing a spaghetti strap top) and from the prior scene that tattoo was high up on her right shoulder. And at the end scene when she is talking to Giles and gives a clear back shot….no tattoo. Maybe it just shows up at night…who knows? Anyways, that was just my little rant. Thanks again and I am SOOOO EXCITED to see the next one!!!!! :)
Patrick Lyke
2021-08-05 00:41:02 +0000 UTCyeah i could listen to ethan and buffy too i agree! i enjoyed the dialogue between them a lot! also LOVE the background on the song - thank you!
darciesnothere
2021-08-04 22:17:54 +0000 UTCLOLOL oh my this is too funny! i never even thought about the WHO in the orgy hahaha but it is kinda funny this show mentions it so much! or ... well more often than other shows
darciesnothere
2021-08-04 22:16:54 +0000 UTCJESSICA! usually i always noticed wardrobe but omg my brain was so focused on rupe this episode i barely remember the outfits. i do have to say though, i remember pointing out that rupes bedroom was exactly how i would have pictured it but thats all! so now i have to go back and watch :D agree with cordelia and the brown hair though - definitely prefer this look much more. and never thought about how weird it is without extras, again going to have to go back and check it out!
darciesnothere
2021-08-04 22:15:25 +0000 UTCnope nope nope i dont wanna wrestle any more conflicts! lol im kidding, im enjoying this aspect of the show so much :) .... i say that now tho....
darciesnothere
2021-08-04 22:13:17 +0000 UTCHONESTLY! didnt lose cal but lost rupe/cal... now i just have to hope we can work this out! lol im ready if there is ever a reboot with my whole list :D
darciesnothere
2021-08-04 22:12:33 +0000 UTCSTOP bailey sarian is QUEEN! 🙈🙈
darciesnothere
2021-08-04 22:11:00 +0000 UTCFIVE guys, actually. Giles didn't put Poor Dead Randall on his list (since you'd need a seance to talk to him) but he was there for the fun stuff, along with Thomas Sutcliffe, Philip, Ethan, and Giles. 'Tis better to have orgied and lost, than ne'er to have orgied at all?
Jessica Roth
2021-08-04 21:30:23 +0000 UTCI am so, so, so mad at myself for never realizing it's the JCS overture. And all the family background is so cool! TY for sharing.
FandomReferenceHere
2021-08-04 21:08:38 +0000 UTCOver two decades later, and dozens of watchings, and I've just now realized that the Dark Magic Orgies were apparently 4 guys and 1 girl. LOL! Giles-Ethan shippers FTW.
FandomReferenceHere
2021-08-04 21:07:01 +0000 UTCThe music that Buffy exercises to is an in-joke: that's the overture to "Jesus Christ Superstar", where Anthony Head's older brother Murray was the original Judas. (A promotional film of Murray singing "Superstar" is on YouTube.) Murray of course became an even bigger star in the 1980s, with the worldwide #1 "One Night in Bangkok" from the musical "Chess". So Joss was "defending" Anthony by having Giles mock "JC:S". Overall, a lot of fun, as long as you know Jenny is going to be okay. I could listen to Buffy and Ethan snipe at each other all day long. Not absolute top drawer, but a good 7.5 or 8/10, IMO.
Jessica Roth
2021-08-04 18:03:42 +0000 UTCAnd yes, if there had been more students, Jenny, Willow, Xander, and Cordy would have had to step outside in order to speak privately with Buffy. But so what? More importantly, if Xander really did think he was living one of his dreams, does that mean he fantasizes about himself, Willow, Cordelia and Cal ALL "doing" Buffy? Kin-kee… As for the actual orgies, I couldn't help notice that the Eyghon Gang consisted of five guys…and only one Deirdre. Either Deirdre had a LOT of stamina, or there was some boy-play going on. (Robin Sachs [Ethan] certainly seems to play it that way, IMO. He practically purrs whenever he says "Ripper".) Which is fine; I'm certainly more concerned about the "play with magic" aspects of Rupe's past than the "play with guys" part.
Jessica Roth
2021-08-04 17:43:17 +0000 UTCFirst, I want to give a shout to Cynthia Bergstrom in the costume department. Top of her game this episode. (Well, Willow's sweater was a bit meh.) Xander's sweater rocked, Cordelia's outfits were great, and I particularly love the halter on Buffy in Act I. Not only did it show her curves (the show takes care to emphasize this, since the WB knows what it wants, and Sarah's the star, which is why Cordelia is more demurely dressed), but the herringbone pattern fit well with the characters' discussion of Giles's fondness for tweed. Clearly Rupe is rubbing off on Buffy's fashion sense, subconsciously. Also props to the hair department for letting Cordelia go back to her basic brown. I didn't complain about those IMO awful blonde highlights they put on her from 2.01-2.04, since I knew they didn't last, but she looks SO much better this way. The hair and the outfit in the library scene with her and Giles and the cops is just perfect. A small quibble that it's a bit contrived that the only two students who need the computer tutorial just happen to be Xander and Cordelia. I get that Joss doesn't want to pay for unnecessary extras, but it looks wrong, IMO. Dan needs to make a living too, Joss! He has tropical fish to feed! (Okay, I just made that up. But still.)
Jessica Roth
2021-08-04 17:42:13 +0000 UTCWhat Forde was doing was saving himself by allowing others to die . Even with the fact that he had cancer that was a selfish thing to do . His terminal prognosis is sad but the fact that he's willing to step on other people to get his needs met was wrong .The great thing about this show is that people make terrible choices at time which makes it more realistic. You pose an interesting question and you will be able to wrestle with more of these conflicts as the show goes on .
L R
2021-08-04 14:50:18 +0000 UTCYou know I don’t what’s worse, the thought of losing Cal or the reality of losing Rup/Cal. 😔 Honestly don’t know why Buffy protected Ethan, he’s done nothing good she should’ve let the flubber-zombie kill him. Also between giant earthworms and flubber-zombies, if they make a Buffy reboot they need you in the writer’s room.
Sarah
2021-08-04 11:42:38 +0000 UTCI came back to say- Ive been watching alot of Bailey Sarian lately and Darcie ... Does anyone else feel like they look alot alike? Easily could be sisters or cousins. Bailey looks like the older sister of Darcie lol.
The Oracle Witch
2021-08-04 10:51:56 +0000 UTC
