Sacred Symbols+, Episode 368 | Fixing the Games Industry With Jonathan Blow
Added 2024-02-24 17:00:12 +0000 UTCPlease welcome esteemed game designer, director, and programmer Jonathan Blow to the show. In a wide-ranging two-hour interview, Jonathan and I (Colin) dissect a Tweet he sent out back in January, one that touched on many problems plaguing our industry. (Indeed, it's that Tweet that had me reach out to him to begin with.) In a sometimes-political and always-insightful commentary, Blow fields questions on myriad topics. How are modern games competing for our time? Do some people conflate "gatekeeping" with "having standards"? Why are corporations so averse to merit-based hiring? Has a level of nihilism and disillusionment infected the rank-and-file pool of developers? Does our industry sit disconnected from the vaster realities of the economy? This is a deep chat that hits all of that, plus much more. Enjoy.
Comments
Second only to the Ken Levine interview. Very good stuff!
Nikitas Gagas
2024-03-08 18:29:08 +0000 UTCJonathan Blow is secretly based. Not a doubt in my mind.
Theotokos Respecter
2024-03-06 21:13:04 +0000 UTCTapped out an hour in. The lack of complete thoughts made for a poor listening experience.
Owen
2024-03-05 14:24:34 +0000 UTCWhat a great episode.
Steven Walters
2024-03-05 01:00:29 +0000 UTCTop tier content. I loved the insight into the industry but also how it extends to corporate America
Jared A.
2024-03-04 16:12:25 +0000 UTCThe beginning of this is really hard to follow. I know Colin likes to just let people talk. But dude was all over the place
Owen
2024-03-04 14:16:16 +0000 UTCYeah, this was awesome
Felipe Brazao Farinha Carvalhaes
2024-03-04 10:52:42 +0000 UTCWhat takes or views are you referring to
YP-Berserk
2024-03-03 20:32:49 +0000 UTCOne of the best podcast, you have ever done
Dane Cap
2024-03-02 04:19:30 +0000 UTCWhen we're talking about why prices are so high right now, I'm always surprised so few people leave out price couging.
Jacob Lesperance
2024-02-29 20:51:35 +0000 UTCLet's be honest, the conversation was just two dudes meandering and hopelessly sighing at the universe while almost none of the points were properly reasoned and ultimately, nothing productive came out of it. Also, I really hope Colin gets to properly get things out of his system in the political Constellation episode. It's getting tiresome to hear him not being able to help himself, and injecting every episode of every show with the same dumb nonconstructive political "takes" while laughing under his breath like that obnoxious smartass in tenth grade that everyone hated. We get it, you feel strongly or whatever. There's no audience litmus test, that's great. It's your company and you get to do with it as you please, fine. But please consider those of us who do not agree with you but still listen, and ask yourself what reason there is for subjecting us to your more and more frequent tirades and bad-faith arguments. The personal downward spiral is starting to take shape. You may not see it yet, but trust me, it's there.
Michal Dudic
2024-02-29 15:48:05 +0000 UTCI wrote Jonathan Blow along time ago, so long ago I more or less forgot the reasons why. Probably thought he was pretentious trying hard info Dev or whatever. Oh boy I was so wrong, this conversation was so insightful and also kinda sad we don't see stuff like this more in other gaming space.
WellyPWNS
2024-02-29 12:18:32 +0000 UTCReally? I found him to have interesting ideas, but scatterbrained and flustered. I can't tell you the number of times I had to look at my phone to make sure the episode was still playing when he just stopped talking for 5-7 second pauses.
Matthew Miller
2024-02-29 06:04:18 +0000 UTCGod, just hearing him think out loud is so refreshing. He brings nuanced thoughts to light that I never would have arrived at myself. I so appreciate this conversation, and it's got me thinking more intently and deeply about these kinds of subjects.
PuppiesOnParade
2024-02-28 23:45:49 +0000 UTCAwesome podcast! I do find the argument that a lot smart people were intensly religious weird. Since stating you were an atheist in those days was dangerous. I mean Galileo was banished by the church for saying the earth orbited the sun. Even though he was religious. The truth is its very hard to say how religious these smart people were for real, when saying negative things about religion could get you in trouble.
Dennis
2024-02-28 18:37:12 +0000 UTCAmazing work! I really wasn't expecting such an insightful deep dive into the nature of economics, belief structures, and other sociotechnical systems. It would be great if you could have him on again.
Aaron
2024-02-28 04:40:43 +0000 UTCMy god this conversation is SO nuanced, contextualized, and fascinating. Nothing like this type of content in the entire industry. Trying not to beat a dead horse man has it been fun watching the company grow to this point. Ill stand down now
SlickMick
2024-02-28 00:01:40 +0000 UTCThis got deep. Not what I expected, but great to listen to.
Bizy_Mix
2024-02-27 20:55:07 +0000 UTCGreat interview, hope he comes back on again!
Robin Meyer
2024-02-27 18:12:09 +0000 UTCNo animosity towards the guest but this was the most unfocused non Jaffe interview I’ve listened too yet
Logan McDaniel
2024-02-27 15:27:57 +0000 UTCWho’s Ryan?
Dean Robertson
2024-02-27 14:57:09 +0000 UTCBest guest ever
Ken Van Allen
2024-02-27 14:09:14 +0000 UTC@colin put a ring 💍 on Johnathan. At least orchestrate a Constellation episode with Johnathan and Jaffe. JB has a lovely mind.
OrochiNewsTeam
2024-02-27 12:34:18 +0000 UTCJB spittin bars, he should consider battle rap.
OrochiNewsTeam
2024-02-27 12:12:12 +0000 UTCJonathan has great talking points but seems to struggle with cogency on most of what he wanted to explain; just disconnected thoughts that get dragged into other thoughts. I'm curious if he comes back on, if the interview would be more structured or be given a little more direction to help stay on point.
FarmerJimmy
2024-02-27 04:22:35 +0000 UTCCan’t wait to hear Ryan’s take on this fascist conversation
Adam Barnes
2024-02-26 20:16:56 +0000 UTC“Yikes” is a massive red flag 🤢😅
Adam Barnes
2024-02-26 20:15:58 +0000 UTCEasily the best interview I've ever heard Colin give. I've been a huge fan of both the Witness and Braid. I'm glad Colin didn't ask him a bunch of questions about those games, which made it seem more genuine. I really hope we hear him more on LSM, but I doubt he has the time. He would be awesome on Constellation.
Michael Jacobson
2024-02-26 19:23:20 +0000 UTCThis guy is really thoughtful, and demonstrates it!
Max Stahl
2024-02-26 16:39:31 +0000 UTCMan, Johnathan Blow fuckin SUCKS at giving an interview
Evan Westendorf
2024-02-26 16:34:48 +0000 UTCAwesome interview!! I've always thought Jonathan Blow was unfairly characterized and maligned and this really solidified that for me. Great insight on the industry and our culture in general.
Zac
2024-02-26 15:54:30 +0000 UTCCongratulations for this episode, one of the best podcasts i ever listened to. Jonathan is an awesome creator and also talker, loved it🙌🏻
Jose Shamisen
2024-02-26 15:35:54 +0000 UTCYou're doing the same thing though by saying if you believe even one thing everything you say is moot. It's playing the same game.
Yalingo
2024-02-26 11:56:00 +0000 UTCThe game pricing debate is deluded. Please name a consumer tech product in recent memory that got MORE expensive the more the industry grew. Outside of Indies, games aren't these artisan projects made by a handful of guys with rare skills anymore. Of course people won't pay for samey bloat action RPG emotions game number 13 While a lot of the economic change stuff is overblown, these are still points to consider. Either way you shouldn't ask conservatives to factor in broader sociological context to their economic argument, it won't work.
Jewelbox
2024-02-26 10:57:20 +0000 UTCI'm only an hour and 20 minutes into this episode, but I had to stop and comment. This was one of the best episodes of a podcast I've listened to. The breadth of conversation here was great to listen to. Incredibly thoughtful discussion. We'll done, and yes, if you hire for merit, you'll hire a diverse set of people.
Mr. Scott If You're Nasty
2024-02-26 10:53:42 +0000 UTCThis episode is up there with the very best Sacred Plus episodes, like the interviews with Ken Levine, Jaffe, Gene Park, etc. I would love to hear another episode with Jonathan Blow if you can have him back on ever again. He’s incredibly insightful, and I’d listen to a conversation between the two of you about literally anything. Keep up the great work!
Drew
2024-02-26 05:43:27 +0000 UTCThe “games used to cost the equivalent of $200” argument is tired and trite. It ignores the reality of economic change. Games were being sold to far fewer people, food costs were dramatically less, and houses could actually be purchased on a single income. It ignores so much. If we really tried to charge $150 or more for major video games in the America we have, the industry would be filled with even more useless, soulless games, or may not even exist as we know it at all. Obviously something has to change in the industry, but blaming the consumer for not wanting to pay $70 for unfinished games laden with micro transactions is going after the wrong target. Outside of that, this was a really fun episode to listen to. I didn’t agree with a lot of Jonathon said, but I also did agree with a lot. It was an insightful conversation, and one I hope we get more of.
Zackery Parkerson
2024-02-26 04:25:46 +0000 UTCgreat conversation
Matthew Kincaid
2024-02-26 01:05:35 +0000 UTCGreat one
Branden
2024-02-26 00:39:36 +0000 UTCI liked a lot of Jonathan’s thoughts, but it would have been nice for Colin to step in and focus him a little more. Some long-winded moments where I lost track of the point trying to be made or completely forgot the question originally asked.
Jared R
2024-02-26 00:12:01 +0000 UTCYikes. Employees with ambition are “cancerous growth” within the company. Can we not have a better analogy?
king_ryan_james
2024-02-25 22:53:26 +0000 UTCI think it’s become a total disadvantage to political conversations to weigh in on the current state of partisanship at all. When someone plants their flag in a podcast like this, it in some ways takes away from the ideas that were discussed. 75% of this podcast: interesting discussions about the state of work, gaming, and more. It definitely has a conservative bent, but is all very reasonable and worth discussing. 25% of the pod: partisan nonsense about how the democrats are pushing communism and have taken over so much of society that even Fox News is liberal now. As soon as it’s revealed that you’re drinking any of the kool aid, it renders everything else inadmissible. P.S. If he had the reverse beliefs like “Jon Stewart should be ashamed for implying that both candidates are bad,” that would be equally disqualifying
Owen S
2024-02-25 20:46:47 +0000 UTCThat was great. Hope Jonathan can come on again some other time! After the programming is complete, of course. 😄
Shortsoptional
2024-02-25 20:44:29 +0000 UTCGreat conversation!
Chance McDaniel
2024-02-25 19:18:39 +0000 UTCGuys an expert at talking on and on and saying nothing. ‘Computers are depressing’ …No Dude, you are. Get your life together.
Dan Nolin
2024-02-25 19:13:22 +0000 UTCSuch a great episode
Haru Discourse
2024-02-25 19:00:29 +0000 UTCMr. Blow has a mind that would make for a great investor. He understands value.
GameSimp
2024-02-25 14:20:27 +0000 UTCOnly 75% done but this is just as good as I thought it’d be. I’m a huge fan of his games and knew this convo wouldn’t be about them. Still loving it. I loved his points about the endless talking online kinda fucking up our thoughts and how it’s hard to have self respect if you stay at a job you don’t give a shit about because you’re basically conning people.
Diddy’s Dong Quest
2024-02-25 12:20:52 +0000 UTCThink I might finally play The Witness.
Colin Moriarty
2024-02-25 11:50:43 +0000 UTCThe people who control things at the top don't care whether or not you are left or right, only that you pick a side. I don't know how you can say what you did about Blow when our very own Host Colin is admittedly terminally online and nobody complains about his perspective being off as a result.
PRETENTIEUX
2024-02-25 07:03:27 +0000 UTCI'm just imagining Chris' Trump impression. "You're not gonna like this, ok. Many such cases, I know."
PRETENTIEUX
2024-02-25 04:41:21 +0000 UTCI haven’t seen Jonathan Blow since that Indie Game movie. I feel oooooold now.
Colin Moriarty
2024-02-25 02:59:39 +0000 UTCLoved it, hands down one of the best Colin Interviews. BUT, but the narrative on the pandemic and printing money & inflation isn’t as simple as the conversation says it is. With that said, the nation is missing a leader, haven’t had one since 2015 Peace.
BadHairDayCaveman
2024-02-25 01:41:25 +0000 UTCBlow sounds like a guy that's online too much surrounded by people online even more than him. Blow's field, games and programming, is ripe with hard-left and Twitter brain rot. It seems like most Millennials (including myself) believe companies don't give a shit about you. You're just a cog in the machine. Employers aren't building human capital, they just want you to do the job. That's why there is complacency in the workplace. If you're staying at a position, it's because you have the pay and benefits you need to provide for your situation. If you want higher pay and more responsibilities, you're going to have to change jobs because most companies don't hire from within anymore.
BigDumbStupidIdiot
2024-02-25 01:27:01 +0000 UTC45 minutes in, and Mr. Blow appears to be one of the most thoughtful and well articulated guests ever on SS. Awesome episode!
Joe Perez
2024-02-25 00:40:13 +0000 UTCI was too stoned trying to listen.
Dana Anderson
2024-02-25 00:24:12 +0000 UTCI wasn’t stoned enough for this convo 😅
Subeg
2024-02-24 23:02:08 +0000 UTCExcellent episode up there with the Ken Levine conversation!
Christopher Gourley
2024-02-24 22:06:07 +0000 UTCIncredible episode. This is peak LSM content.
Brian Young
2024-02-24 21:45:19 +0000 UTCFuck yes
A Hind D
2024-02-24 21:22:04 +0000 UTCGreat episode. A simulacrum president befits an age of simulacra
Jake Z
2024-02-24 20:01:42 +0000 UTCWow, what an incredibly smart man. Great podcast.
Your Boi Nicky V
2024-02-24 19:44:42 +0000 UTCEpisodes like this are why I’m a patron.
Dante B
2024-02-24 19:38:45 +0000 UTCSaying constantly that people are gonna get mad at what you’re about to say and then not saying anything even remotely controversial is some blue balls shit. Kept thinking he was gonna say something spicy. Edit: okay it finally got spicy towards the end. Good shit.
Bogey
2024-02-24 18:59:02 +0000 UTCIt sounded familiar, but I couldn't put my finger on it while listening.
Ealia Staroverov
2024-02-24 18:57:44 +0000 UTCDon't listen while driving.
Chris Adams
2024-02-24 18:44:09 +0000 UTCAnyone notice Jonathan Blow kinda sounds like Norm Macdonald? Or is it just me 😂
Jonathan Gonzalez
2024-02-24 18:33:02 +0000 UTCHoly shit what an insightful and interesting interview this is.. Jonathan is such a an interesting guy and really is as intelligent as he seems
Craig Carter
2024-02-24 18:32:01 +0000 UTCI don't even need to see a trailer for the new puzzle game he is working on. I'm all in!
Jason W
2024-02-24 17:44:19 +0000 UTCOh snap let’s do this yaass
Gonçalo Ferreira
2024-02-24 17:32:56 +0000 UTCOnly 20 min in and this is already one of my favorite interviews ever with Jonathan.
Ray
2024-02-24 17:32:43 +0000 UTCOh shit! Noyce!
Miky Sh
2024-02-24 17:06:06 +0000 UTCYaaaaasssss
Matthew Major
2024-02-24 17:05:20 +0000 UTCJonathan Blow made my two favorite games ever in Braid and The Witness. This is such a treat, thank you for making this happen.
Matthew La Canfora
2024-02-24 17:05:03 +0000 UTCHyped to listen!
Kazden Risk
2024-02-24 17:04:25 +0000 UTC
